Re: Treating spectrum kids differently...

[Guest guest]

I think it is better to protect the child from bullying, etc. Typical

kids need to learn some acceptance, and it's not fair or right to make a

spectrum kid act like something they arent.

I also think that IEPs and accomodations are good-school isnt set up for

us, so they make things more fair. Its not like they give us an

ADVANTAGE.

Kassiane

< Re: Treating spectrum kids differently...

This got brought up on the AS-Proud list, and as a nice alternative to

the

crap being flung over here, I'm asking for opinions...

Is it better to protect a spectrum child from being bullied and

ostracized,

or teach him to act NT?

Are IEPs/accommodations a good idea, or do they just create a rift

between

autistic/NT individuals?

[Guest guest]

I have only one thing to say on this subject and that is that time

will tell.

Lets face it nobody knows if the new generation of Aspies will cope

better by being given the Kid Gloves Treatment or Worse by not being

given it.

The same goes for the amount of drugs available that I think hinder

the progress of Aspie Children.

Remember I was not given any special treatment in the 70s and I did

not get any special allowances in Main Stream Schools. I think this

made me a fighter and far more equipped to deal with the outside

world than children who do not.

As a result I have outgrown many of the negative traits of AS, yet

still have held on to the more positive traits, such as intelligence

and the way I view life.

I am less prone now to slap myself or stim and fit in far better with

NTEEEEEEEEEs than in the past. I feel because of this I am less

bitter and feel easier within myself. Even go to a few pubs and

clubs, although its still difficult for me to go up and order a

drink.

Steve

[Guest guest]

>Remember I was not given any special treatment in the 70s and I did

>not get any special allowances in Main Stream Schools. I think this

>made me a fighter and far more equipped to deal with the outside

>world than children who do not.

That's great for you, but I'm sure you realize that it's very much

the exception, not the rule. The typical Aspie's childhood consists

of incessant bullying, ridicule, and the like (in my case, it came

not only from my classmates, but even from my parents, and

occasionally even my teachers).

I was also a child in the 70s who got no special allowances in the

schools (mainly because no one could figure out what the hell to do

with a kid with a 156 IQ and yet so many problems understanding basic

social interaction). In my own case, the years of relentless abuse

turned me into an insecure and avoidant person, suffering from severe

depression and low self-esteem.

My story is much more typical than yours is. I'm happy that you were

able to overcome it, but you should know that many of us -- perhaps

even the majority -- don't. I struggled for years with drugs and

alcohol, and I attempted suicide when I was 21. I am only now, in my

mid-thirties, beginning to understand that I was not treated so badly

because I am a bad person, but because we live in a society that is

strongly prejudiced against ACs. With the help of the lists and my

partner, I am beginning to accept myself for who I am. I spent over

thirty years being subjected to the whims of the curebies. It did

not do me any good -- far, far from it.

Looking back on it all, I really cannot believe that it's taken me

this long to even begin to come to the realization, for example, that

it was my father's fault, not mine, that he used to scream

vulgarities at me, then pick me up and slam me into the wall or throw

me across the room, whenever he caught me stimming. All for an

activity that was completely harmless and should not have troubled

anyone in the least.

Sorry. As long as we live in a society of bigots -- and we do -- ACs

are going to need some " special allowances " . As it stands, ACs are

typically subjected to tremendous abuse from all facets of society,

including the authority figures who are supposed to prevent that

abuse, not engage in it. Throwing AC children to the wolves and

telling them it will " toughen them up " is not the answer.

--Parrish

[Guest guest]

> Is it better to protect a spectrum child from being bullied and ostracized,

> or teach him to act NT?

It is better to keep anyone from being bullied, and to teach bullies

(some of whom are autistic, by the way) better ways of interacting.

> Are IEPs/accommodations a good idea, or do they just create a rift between

> autistic/NT individuals?

IEPs should exist for everyone, autistic or NT. Accomodations are not

" special " accomodations, they are access requirements in order to get an

education or get the job done. As such, they should also apply to

everyone, not just autistic people.

--

" This isn't right. This isn't even *wrong*. " -Wolfgang i, on a paper

submitted by a physicist colleague

[Guest guest]

This is a good question.

For me personally, I wished SO BAD that someone took me aside, watching me

struggle, and instead of telling me moronic shit like, " everything's gonna be

OK " and " people are basically good and will be nice to you " or the most stupid "

just be nice. " -

(Reminds me of a South Park episode where Pipp, the picked on English boy, is

told by Mr. Mackie, " Pip, you know.... just be overly nice and the other kids

'll like you, OK? " ) whatever the hell that means, and instead said " these are

the social rules. They seem stupid but here's why you have to do them.... " and

then patiently tell me what the were and why they were, over and over, until I

got it. Then I wouldn't be so confused. Even if I couldn't put on the damn

manic body language that NTs require, at least I WOULD KNOW IT WASN'T MY FAULT,

and that I can't help myself. I'd at least know what was going on and not wonder

why I'm so clueless about something that I should know. And I'd be less

clueless about the world around me, and could see things coming around the

corner better, and learn to just KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT sometimes. At least I could

practice stupid small talk, and know what silly innocuous trivial thing I should

be talking about.

Everytime I was given a piece of the social puzzle, it helped me understand

things. Once I realized that I was aspie, and that's why I COULD NOT do body

language, I felt SO much better about myself. Now when I fuck up, I say to

myself, " what are you going to do? You can't really try to fix it- that will

make it worse. Beat yourself up? You can't help it- you did the best you could-

and that's not going to help you. It'll only make things worse. " This morning-

in fact- I was suppose to shake someone's hand. YES I very much enjoyed her

company, but she didn't extend her hand. I saw something in her eyes and 30

seconds later realized she was upset that I didn't outstretch my hand as a sign

that I did like her. I smiled and said " nice to meet you " eyes open with eye

contact (because I like her), but she probably thinks I don't like her and that

I'm weird. However, being an animal lover and just by her demeanor, I can tell

she's a nice person. Afterall, she came over and showed me how to express my

cat's bladder, so I can test his pee and monitor his FUS. She didn't have to do

that. She liked my cats, too. Maybe she will forgive some of it and overlook my

awkwardness- maybe not. She did overlook a lot of it-but that could be an act

to be " nice " to me. I was so frazzled this morning cleaning up the place. I

should have been prepared, as I knew this a while ago. I would've been less

stressed and clearer.

I can read people mostly, I'm a lot more aware than they think I am. Very

small, subtle cues I can't get. My NT friend doesn't know I'm an Aspie (she'd

freak out) but she somehow can sense that I just don't get it sometimes, and

that I say stupid things not trying to be mean, just socially challenged. So

she starts with a slight hint like, a yawn, and some obscure comment about maybe

there was a time she was tired, sleepy... it's a hint it's time for me to leave.

My little time-lapse delayed brain goes, " Does she want to sleep, and then I

should leave??? " She can see the blankness in my eyes and finally says, " When

the little one is done playing I think I'll take a nap. " OH!!! she's tired.

The little tyke may still be playing, but I see that's my queue to leave. So I

get up. And I was right. (took me a while to get it.)

I also think it's important to protect them from bullying. NOT to tell them it

never happens, but to keep them from it because it doesn't toughen them up, it

breaks them down more and more. And tell them what to do if they are bullied

and NOT something stupid like " go tell your teacher " Show them how to stand up

for themselves little by little. At least if they have something to go on and

support, depending on their level of aspieness, I think it would be helpful.

Of course, they have to be around other kids. If they are bullied, (the worse

bullies, and chronic ones should not be there at all) a teacher needs to

IMMEDIATELY stop the bully, take him aside, and teach him manners, empathy, and

respect for others. Most importantly, to teach them that it's OK to be

different, and that just because someone is different doesn't mean that they are

bad, or mean, etc, and that doesn't give the bully the right to abuse anyone.

The whole school should be based on that philosophy. If they have to do that a

billion times, then do it. It will instill respect in a child. They should be

on a keen look out for hidden abuse, as kids get older. They are nice to the

aspie in front of the teacher, but when no one's around they beat them up. If

it's noticed it needs to be stopped immediately. Bullying should be taken

seriously in schools.

Kids need to be taught that being mean to anyone and bullying people because

they are different is wrong. If the schools gave a damn, they would instill

lifelong values in children, not do the bare minimum to teach them the ABC's and

what not. Also, they need to give them tools for living- not just smarts, but

things that are intangible- street smarts- ie, this is not a perfect world.

Kids need to learn to value other people no matter what, and not be afraid of

" the other " . It's a valuable tool, that if taken seriously there would be a lot

less violence in schools.

I think the most important aspect of autism, or Aspieness, is for god's sake to

TELL THE CHILD THE DIAGNOSIS and what it means. How will it impact their lives-

they need to know. Honestly with respect is the best policy- to the children.

How in the hell are they suppose to be able to deal with the Autism if they

don't know what it is or that they even have it? And not this " oh no you're a

disorder " shit. They just need to be told they are different and this is why,

this is what it means. It's important to let the kid know that they are OK they

way they are, they just need to be aware of somethings, and have some coping

mechanisms and know what to do in certain situations so they aren't blindsided,

confused, and hurt.

So to make a long story short, a little of each tactic should be done, balanced

depending on the severity of the aspieness of a child. Obviously children with

less ability to grasp social understandings cannot do some crucial social

things, they need to be told what's up, and kept from abuse as well, since they

cannot defend themselves. For these children, explain the facts of life, that

they may have issues, that it's wrong, it's not your fault, but that's life.

Here's how you get around it, etc.

I'm not saying " make them NT " just make them aware of NT stuff, and if they can,

and want to, help them emulate NTness enough to get along with less abuse.

That's what I would've wanted. Not to be someone else, but just have a script,

so I wouldn't be so lost. To me it's just helpful tools and coping mechanisms.

No, they'll never be NT, but at least they have a way to get along in the NT

world and help themselves, an option they can use or not.

Jeanette

Treating spectrum kids differently...

This got brought up on the AS-Proud list, and as a nice alternative to the

crap being flung over here, I'm asking for opinions...

Is it better to protect a spectrum child from being bullied and ostracized,

or teach him to act NT?

Are IEPs/accommodations a good idea, or do they just create a rift between

autistic/NT individuals?

[Guest guest]

> >Remember I was not given any special treatment in the 70s and I did

> >not get any special allowances in Main Stream Schools. I think

this

> >made me a fighter and far more equipped to deal with the outside

> >world than children who do not.

>

> That's great for you, but I'm sure you realize that it's very much

> the exception, not the rule. The typical Aspie's childhood

consists

> of incessant bullying, ridicule, and the like (in my case, it came

> not only from my classmates, but even from my parents, and

> occasionally even my teachers).

>

> I was also a child in the 70s who got no special allowances in the

> schools (mainly because no one could figure out what the hell to do

> with a kid with a 156 IQ and yet so many problems understanding

basic

> social interaction). In my own case, the years of relentless abuse

> turned me into an insecure and avoidant person, suffering from

severe

> depression and low self-esteem.

>

> My story is much more typical than yours is. I'm happy that you

were

> able to overcome it, but you should know that many of us -- perhaps

> even the majority -- don't. I struggled for years with drugs and

> alcohol, and I attempted suicide when I was 21. I am only now, in

my

> mid-thirties, beginning to understand that I was not treated so

badly

> because I am a bad person, but because we live in a society that is

> strongly prejudiced against ACs. With the help of the lists and my

> partner, I am beginning to accept myself for who I am. I spent

over

> thirty years being subjected to the whims of the curebies. It did

> not do me any good -- far, far from it.

>

> Looking back on it all, I really cannot believe that it's taken me

> this long to even begin to come to the realization, for example,

that

> it was my father's fault, not mine, that he used to scream

> vulgarities at me, then pick me up and slam me into the wall or

throw

> me across the room, whenever he caught me stimming. All for an

> activity that was completely harmless and should not have troubled

> anyone in the least.

>

> Sorry. As long as we live in a society of bigots -- and we do --

ACs

> are going to need some " special allowances " . As it stands, ACs are

> typically subjected to tremendous abuse from all facets of society,

> including the authority figures who are supposed to prevent that

> abuse, not engage in it. Throwing AC children to the wolves and

> telling them it will " toughen them up " is not the answer.

>

> --Parrish

Im awfully sorry to hear about your father, thats terrible.

I suspect that having a good strong family is a big requirement to a

good strong individual. There are many an exception as hopefully you

prove, but certainly the treatment you endured would not toughen you

up in that regard at all.

If an aspie, even a mild one like me, is to be expected to function

in the outside world, i believe their remains three very broad

choices within a good loving family environment.

1) teach them from a young age what society expects of them loving

them for who they are yourself.

2) teach them from adolescance what society expects from them, loving

them for who they are yourself.

3) Dont teach them what society expects from them, but reinforce the

correctness of their actions and love them for themselves.

I think a degree of mix and match can and will occur beetween the two.

hhmmm.

Off that list, i prefer number three. But with a healthy dose of what

and why people expect from me thrown in, to help my (then) young mind

grasp such concepts.

Gareth.

[Guest guest]

Oh, one more thing- I don't want to sound like I'm a curebie, because I'm not.

If a person is on the spectrum they deserve to have any accomodations they need.

To me, part of those accomodations are being straight and honest, respectful and

explaining the world to them. Give them a chance- treat them with the same

respect NT's get, and I also see accomodations as having NTs understand the

autistic person. In a school setting, if an NT child wants to be a jerk, they

need to be taught and disciplined.

I just also feel that self-help skills and ANY skills that can help them,

including some social ones IF they can and want to do them, would be good.

Empowering them to the max I think builds self esteem. I'm most certainly not

for forcing eye contact, or any of that Bullshit. Teaching social skills, like

math and everything else at least helps them understand, and at most helps them

deal with NTs a little better. That way they have SOME tools to defend

themselves with, if they can.

Jeanette

Treating spectrum kids differently...

This got brought up on the AS-Proud list, and as a nice alternative to the

crap being flung over here, I'm asking for opinions...

Is it better to protect a spectrum child from being bullied and ostracized,

or teach him to act NT?

Are IEPs/accommodations a good idea, or do they just create a rift between

autistic/NT individuals?

[Guest guest]

From personal experience, I think autistics should be shielded from

bullies, etc. . The abuse from bullies is quite painful. It is not

right to allow them to continue.

My father employed " sink or swim " tactics. It did not do any good. I

was hurt and became distanced from him as a result.

[Guest guest]

>>From personal experience, I think autistics should be shielded from

>bullies, etc. . The abuse from bullies is quite painful. It is not

>right to allow them to continue.

>

>My father employed " sink or swim " tactics. It did not do any good. I

>was hurt and became distanced from him as a result.

>

As a child that was bullied for most of my childhood I agree. I

think there should be zero tolerance when it comes to bullying.

There should be far more educational classes and role playing so that

bullies can see what its like to be a victim. Because its true many

kids do not know when to stop. They certainly do not know how much

distress they cause, until some tragedy happens and then its too

late.

I think that the parents should be made accountable. If the children

bully others out of School then the parents should be charged with

their behaviour. It worked here in the UK with Children that bunked

off School all the time. They ended up Jailing the Parents and

amazingly now the kids make sure they turn up every day.

They could set up a computerised system that informs Parents of what

their child is up to. This is highly successful in the states. It

will ring the parents and say if there child has turned up. It will

ring them and tell them if the child has been reprimanded for

bullying.

If the above fails then the Child should be suspended from School

with an injunction to not go near the victim or the School. As there

have been cases of a child getting kicking out and still harassing

the victim out of School hours. If they fail then the Parents and

the child should be brought before a court of law. The way the child

can be punished is Juvenile Detention or tagging so the Police know

where the child is. They can also impose Anti Social Behaviour

Orders and even Ban the Child from certain areas.

Bullying is something that if stopped at School and nipped in the bud

will not continue into adult life. Bullies do grow up to be bullies

in the work place or even thugs etc. Stopping it now and making the

kids accountable as well as the Parents would finally help to wipe it

out.

Schools that do not take it seriously should be sued by the state.

Also if the Principal fails to take action then he should have his

job on the line. With the amount of children that are killing

themselves or falling ill due to bullying, its time something was

done and it starts with the Schools. If a child kills him or herself

then the people who failed to do anything should be made accountable

in a court of law and if necessary charged.

Steve

My Aspergers Groups

http://www.geocities.com/chemerelite

http://clix.to/chemer

[Guest guest]

>I was also a child in the 70s who got no special allowances in the

>schools (mainly because no one could figure out what the hell to do

>with a kid with a 156 IQ and yet so many problems understanding

>basic

>social interaction). In my own case, the years of relentless abuse

>turned me into an insecure and avoidant person, suffering from

>severe

>depression and low self-esteem.

>

I only started to get my IQ at the age of 14. Before then I was

still clever and had an enquiring mind, but my perception was low and

so all the knowledge I tried to take in just did not register.

>My story is much more typical than yours is. I'm happy that you

>were

>able to overcome it, but you should know that many of us -- perhaps

>even the majority -- don't. I struggled for years with drugs and

>alcohol, and I attempted suicide when I was 21.

I too took an Acid Tab and turned to drink at 21. I too felt like

killing myself when my family were on Holiday.

I am only now, in

>my

>mid-thirties, beginning to understand that I was not treated so

>badly

>because I am a bad person, but because we live in a society that is

>strongly prejudiced against ACs. With the help of the lists and my

>partner, I am beginning to accept myself for who I am. I spent over

>thirty years being subjected to the whims of the curebies. It did

>not do me any good -- far, far from it.

>

Same here and I still get the crap about just take these happy pills

and you will be ok.

>Looking back on it all, I really cannot believe that it's taken me

>this long to even begin to come to the realization, for example,

>that

>it was my father's fault, not mine, that he used to scream

>vulgarities at me, then pick me up and slam me into the wall or

>throw

>me across the room, whenever he caught me stimming. All for an

>activity that was completely harmless and should not have troubled

>anyone in the least.

>

My Dad got frustrated, but he never resorted to belting me and

certainly not the violence that you describe. That is nothing short

of child abuse and these days would get your father a nice spell in

prison where the prisoners would give him a good kicking.

I was lucky to have parents that although they did not understand me

they did at least try and work with me. Mom even taught me the Time

and other things on her Holiday. Dad tried to get me to kick

footballs down the park etc. You have to understand that my Parents

had no help off the Authorities. Well they did but I was put in with

Children with behavioural problems. I was also sent to a Special

School and finally made it to main stream school.

>Sorry. As long as we live in a society of bigots -- and we do --

>ACs

>are going to need some " special allowances " . As it stands, ACs are

>typically subjected to tremendous abuse from all facets of society,

>including the authority figures who are supposed to prevent that

>abuse, not engage in it. Throwing AC children to the wolves and

>telling them it will " toughen them up " is not the answer.

>

Yes and many Doctors here do not want to deal with any of the

problems. As long as it involves giving us Anti Depressants and

sending us on our way.

Steve

My Aspergers Groups

http://www.geocities.com/chemerelite

http://clix.to/chemer

[Guest guest]

Just a note here --- IEPs really shouldn't be called

'special allowances', when their purpose is just to

ensure a level playing field for the kid with

disabilities, and is required/ensured by law......

Nanne

--- Chemer wrote:

> >I was also a child in the 70s who got no special

> allowances in the

> >schools (mainly because no one could figure out

> what the hell to do

> >with a kid with a 156 IQ and yet so many problems

> understanding

> >basic

> >social interaction). > >

>

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Agreed. That sounds too much like the accusations of " special privilege " leveled

at me by both teachers and other kids when I tried to get something as simple as

a ramp to a class in high school, or an extra five minutes between classes.

Re: Treating spectrum kids differently...

Just a note here --- IEPs really shouldn't be called

'special allowances', when their purpose is just to

ensure a level playing field for the kid with

disabilities, and is required/ensured by law......

Nanne

--- Chemer wrote:

> >I was also a child in the 70s who got no special

> allowances in the

> >schools (mainly because no one could figure out

> what the hell to do

> >with a kid with a 156 IQ and yet so many problems

> understanding

> >basic

> >social interaction). > >

>

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 2:38 PM

> This got brought up on the AS-Proud list, and as a nice alternative to the

> crap being flung over here, I'm asking for opinions...

>

> Is it better to protect a spectrum child from being bullied and

ostracized,

> or teach him to act NT?

>

> Are IEPs/accommodations a good idea, or do they just create a rift between

> autistic/NT individuals?

Those aren't the only two choices. The approach I've taken is to try to

help my son be able to understand how the NT world works.

I feel that protecting him from being bullied and ostracized would be doing

him a great disservice. Not that I condone those things in any way at all,

but he is going to have to face them during his life, and he needs to know

how to deal with them. I don't try to teach him to " act NT, " but I do try

to help him overcome the things that make his life difficult. We have

worked on sensory issues and how to handle overloads. We have plans about

what he should do when he feels like he's losing control. We talk about the

repercussions of different types of behaviors.

He's going to have to navigate the " real world " during his life, and the

earlier he learns survival skills the better off he will be.

As far as IEP accommodations go, they certainly can be helpful. My son

really didn't need to take advantage of his accommodations very often last

year in kindergarten, but when he needed them they were there. Also, since

he had an IEP all of the school staff knew about his issues. Can they

create a rift? Yes. But some of the behaviors that accommodations help

prevent can create an even bigger one.

[Guest guest]

--- Rakus wrote:

>

> >

> He's going to have to navigate the " real world "

> during his life, and the

> earlier he learns survival skills the better off he

> will be.

------I agree with this also, and have done the

same with my son....

>

> As far as IEP accommodations go, they certainly can

> be helpful. My son

> really didn't need to take advantage of his

> accommodations very often last

> year in kindergarten, but when he needed them they

> were there. Also, since

> he had an IEP all of the school staff knew about his

> issues. Can they

> create a rift? Yes. But some of the behaviors that

> accommodations help

> prevent can create an even bigger one.

>

>

>

--------Am curious about what you mean by this last

sentence here, could you elaborate? thanks,

Nanne

>

http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/H9SolB/TM

>

---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jeanette,

Excellent response. You outlined my approach with my son. It took me a

couple of decades to figure out the social aspect of life, and I want to

pass that knowledge on to my son so he will be ahead of the game ).

Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2003 5:41 PM

> This is a good question.

>

> For me personally, I wished SO BAD that someone took me aside, watching me

struggle, and instead of telling me moronic shit like, " everything's gonna

be OK " and " people are basically good and will be nice to you " or the most

stupid " just be nice. " -

> (Reminds me of a South Park episode where Pipp, the picked on English boy,

is told by Mr. Mackie, " Pip, you know.... just be overly nice and the other

kids 'll like you, OK? " ) whatever the hell that means, and instead said

" these are the social rules. They seem stupid but here's why you have to do

them.... " and then patiently tell me what the were and why they were, over

and over, until I got it. Then I wouldn't be so confused. Even if I

couldn't put on the damn manic body language that NTs require, at least I

WOULD KNOW IT WASN'T MY FAULT, and that I can't help myself. I'd at least

know what was going on and not wonder why I'm so clueless about something

that I should know. And I'd be less clueless about the world around me, and

could see things coming around the corner better, and learn to just KEEP MY

MOUTH SHUT sometimes. At least I could practice stupid small talk, and know

what silly innocuous trivial thing I should be talking about.

>

> Everytime I was given a piece of the social puzzle, it helped me

understand things. Once I realized that I was aspie, and that's why I COULD

NOT do body language, I felt SO much better about myself. Now when I fuck

up, I say to myself, " what are you going to do? You can't really try to fix

it- that will make it worse. Beat yourself up? You can't help it- you did

the best you could- and that's not going to help you. It'll only make

things worse. " This morning- in fact- I was suppose to shake someone's

hand. YES I very much enjoyed her company, but she didn't extend her hand.

I saw something in her eyes and 30 seconds later realized she was upset that

I didn't outstretch my hand as a sign that I did like her. I smiled and

said " nice to meet you " eyes open with eye contact (because I like her), but

she probably thinks I don't like her and that I'm weird. However, being an

animal lover and just by her demeanor, I can tell she's a nice person.

Afterall, she came over and showed me how to express my cat's bladder, so I

can test his pee and monitor his FUS. She didn't have to do that. She liked

my cats, too. Maybe she will forgive some of it and overlook my

awkwardness- maybe not. She did overlook a lot of it-but that could be an

act to be " nice " to me. I was so frazzled this morning cleaning up the

place. I should have been prepared, as I knew this a while ago. I would've

been less stressed and clearer.

>

> I can read people mostly, I'm a lot more aware than they think I am.

Very small, subtle cues I can't get. My NT friend doesn't know I'm an Aspie

(she'd freak out) but she somehow can sense that I just don't get it

sometimes, and that I say stupid things not trying to be mean, just socially

challenged. So she starts with a slight hint like, a yawn, and some obscure

comment about maybe there was a time she was tired, sleepy... it's a hint

it's time for me to leave. My little time-lapse delayed brain goes, " Does

she want to sleep, and then I should leave??? " She can see the blankness

in my eyes and finally says, " When the little one is done playing I think

I'll take a nap. " OH!!! she's tired. The little tyke may still be playing,

but I see that's my queue to leave. So I get up. And I was right. (took me

a while to get it.)

>

> I also think it's important to protect them from bullying. NOT to tell

them it never happens, but to keep them from it because it doesn't toughen

them up, it breaks them down more and more. And tell them what to do if

they are bullied and NOT something stupid like " go tell your teacher " Show

them how to stand up for themselves little by little. At least if they have

something to go on and support, depending on their level of aspieness, I

think it would be helpful.

>

> Of course, they have to be around other kids. If they are bullied, (the

worse bullies, and chronic ones should not be there at all) a teacher needs

to IMMEDIATELY stop the bully, take him aside, and teach him manners,

empathy, and respect for others. Most importantly, to teach them that it's

OK to be different, and that just because someone is different doesn't mean

that they are bad, or mean, etc, and that doesn't give the bully the right

to abuse anyone. The whole school should be based on that philosophy. If

they have to do that a billion times, then do it. It will instill respect

in a child. They should be on a keen look out for hidden abuse, as kids get

older. They are nice to the aspie in front of the teacher, but when no

one's around they beat them up. If it's noticed it needs to be stopped

immediately. Bullying should be taken seriously in schools.

>

> Kids need to be taught that being mean to anyone and bullying people

because they are different is wrong. If the schools gave a damn, they would

instill lifelong values in children, not do the bare minimum to teach them

the ABC's and what not. Also, they need to give them tools for living- not

just smarts, but things that are intangible- street smarts- ie, this is not

a perfect world. Kids need to learn to value other people no matter what,

and not be afraid of " the other " . It's a valuable tool, that if taken

seriously there would be a lot less violence in schools.

>

> I think the most important aspect of autism, or Aspieness, is for god's

sake to TELL THE CHILD THE DIAGNOSIS and what it means. How will it impact

their lives- they need to know. Honestly with respect is the best policy-

to the children. How in the hell are they suppose to be able to deal with

the Autism if they don't know what it is or that they even have it? And not

this " oh no you're a disorder " shit. They just need to be told they are

different and this is why, this is what it means. It's important to let the

kid know that they are OK they way they are, they just need to be aware of

somethings, and have some coping mechanisms and know what to do in certain

situations so they aren't blindsided, confused, and hurt.

>

> So to make a long story short, a little of each tactic should be done,

balanced depending on the severity of the aspieness of a child. Obviously

children with less ability to grasp social understandings cannot do some

crucial social things, they need to be told what's up, and kept from abuse

as well, since they cannot defend themselves. For these children, explain

the facts of life, that they may have issues, that it's wrong, it's not your

fault, but that's life. Here's how you get around it, etc.

>

> I'm not saying " make them NT " just make them aware of NT stuff, and if

they can, and want to, help them emulate NTness enough to get along with

less abuse. That's what I would've wanted. Not to be someone else, but

just have a script, so I wouldn't be so lost. To me it's just helpful tools

and coping mechanisms. No, they'll never be NT, but at least they have a way

to get along in the NT world and help themselves, an option they can use or

not.

>

> Jeanette

[Guest guest]

I think it is better to protect a spectrum child from being

bullied and ostracized; they have a unique sense of justice and a

strict adherence to the rules and I think they need to retain

that. They also need to be taught how to react to that kind of

behavior towards them, and the authority figures involved need to

be taught to punish the tormenters instead of just saying, “Oh,

get over it”.

I think IEPs are a good idea; they educate teachers and

principals about the nature of disabilities, and they provide

parents with a legal document in case the teachers and/or

principal refuse to be educated.

Just my two cents….

Louis

From: DeGraf

This got brought up on the AS-Proud list, and as a nice

alternative to the

crap being flung over here, I'm asking for opinions...

Is it better to protect a spectrum child from being bullied and

ostracized,

or teach him to act NT?

Are IEPs/accommodations a good idea, or do they just create a

rift between

autistic/NT individuals?

[Guest guest]

At 11:04 AM 8/18/2003, you wrote:

>I think it is better to protect a spectrum child from being

>bullied and ostracized; they have a unique sense of justice and a

>strict adherence to the rules and I think they need to retain

>that. They also need to be taught how to react to that kind of

>behavior towards them, and the authority figures involved need to

>be taught to punish the tormenters instead of just saying, " Oh,

>get over it " .

That's true, but the problem often goes beyond that. Authority figures are

often, themselves, tormentors. I haven't seen anyone attempt to respond to

this particular problem yet: if an AC child is bullied and tormented by his

classmates, beaten by his parents, and harassed by authority figures who

tell him/her that everyone else's behavior is the AC's fault, well, then,

where, exactly, is an AC child supposed to turn for help? For that matter,

what reason would the AC child have to even realize that there was anything

wrong? If every waking moment of his existence consists of being tormented

by every other human being he ever encounters, he'll probably just go on

the assumption -- as I did -- that the entire human race is really little

more than a pack of wolves who will strike at the first opportunity, just

for the sheer entertainment value of doing so. (To be honest, I'm still

not convinced that's not the case, but I don't want to digress.)

--Parrish

[Guest guest]

Oooh, good point. I like that!

Louis

Re: Treating spectrum kids

differently...

> Is it better to protect a spectrum child from being bullied and

ostracized,

> or teach him to act NT?

It is better to keep anyone from being bullied, and to teach

bullies

(some of whom are autistic, by the way) better ways of

interacting.

> Are IEPs/accommodations a good idea, or do they just create a

rift between

> autistic/NT individuals?

IEPs should exist for everyone, autistic or NT. Accomodations

are not

" special " accomodations, they are access requirements in order to

get an

education or get the job done. As such, they should also apply

to

everyone, not just autistic people.

--

" This isn't right. This isn't even *wrong*. " -Wolfgang i, on

a paper

submitted by a physicist colleague

[Guest guest]

Your life sounds like mine. Same-same for everything except the

drugs; I felt like they robbed me of myself, and could not stand

to take them. Tried some, though.

Louis

From: Parrish S. Knight

>Remember I was not given any special treatment in the 70s and I

did

>not get any special allowances in Main Stream Schools. I think

this

>made me a fighter and far more equipped to deal with the outside

>world than children who do not.

That's great for you, but I'm sure you realize that it's very

much

the exception, not the rule. The typical Aspie's childhood

consists

of incessant bullying, ridicule, and the like (in my case, it

came

not only from my classmates, but even from my parents, and

occasionally even my teachers).

I was also a child in the 70s who got no special allowances in

the

schools (mainly because no one could figure out what the hell to

do

with a kid with a 156 IQ and yet so many problems understanding

basic

social interaction). In my own case, the years of relentless

abuse

turned me into an insecure and avoidant person, suffering from

severe

depression and low self-esteem.

My story is much more typical than yours is. I'm happy that you

were

able to overcome it, but you should know that many of us --

perhaps

even the majority -- don't. I struggled for years with drugs and

alcohol, and I attempted suicide when I was 21. I am only now,

in my

mid-thirties, beginning to understand that I was not treated so

badly

because I am a bad person, but because we live in a society that

is

strongly prejudiced against ACs. With the help of the lists and

my

partner, I am beginning to accept myself for who I am. I spent

over

thirty years being subjected to the whims of the curebies. It

did

not do me any good -- far, far from it.

Looking back on it all, I really cannot believe that it's taken

me

this long to even begin to come to the realization, for example,

that

it was my father's fault, not mine, that he used to scream

vulgarities at me, then pick me up and slam me into the wall or

throw

me across the room, whenever he caught me stimming. All for an

activity that was completely harmless and should not have

troubled

anyone in the least.

Sorry. As long as we live in a society of bigots -- and we do --

ACs

are going to need some " special allowances " . As it stands, ACs

are

typically subjected to tremendous abuse from all facets of

society,

including the authority figures who are supposed to prevent that

abuse, not engage in it. Throwing AC children to the wolves and

telling them it will " toughen them up " is not the answer.

--Parrish

[Guest guest]

--- Louise Gainor wrote:

> I think it is better to protect a spectrum child

> from being

> bullied and ostracized; they have a unique sense of

> justice and a

> strict adherence to the rules and I think they need

> to retain

> that.

-----Funny story...my son is entering high school in

two weeks, and I went over again about kids offering

alcohol and pot, and the dangers of pot smoking,

effecting seratonin levels in the brain yadda yadda, I

went on for a while, and when I was done, he shrugged

his shoulders and said, " Well, it's against the law. "

Another positive aspect of AS! (many being

disinclined to break the law or rules...)

>

> I think IEPs are a good idea; they educate teachers

> and

> principals about the nature of disabilities, and

> they provide

> parents with a legal document in case the teachers

> and/or

> principal refuse to be educated.

>

> Just my two cents….

>

> Louis

>

> -----Exactly. I can't imagine anyone with an AS kid

not getting an IEP for their kid.

And not only that, you have to be active in the

updating process. Last year when I sat down with the

counselor to go over it, there were half of the things

left off of it that should have been on it, and I made

sure they were put back on.

Nanne

>

> Is it better to protect a spectrum child from being

> bullied and

> ostracized,

> or teach him to act NT?

>

> Are IEPs/accommodations a good idea, or do they just

> create a

> rift between

> autistic/NT individuals?

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That IS a funny story!

Louis

From: Cerulean

--- Louise Gainor wrote:

> I think it is better to protect a spectrum child

> from being

> bullied and ostracized; they have a unique sense of

> justice and a

> strict adherence to the rules and I think they need

> to retain

> that.

-----Funny story...my son is entering high school in

two weeks, and I went over again about kids offering

alcohol and pot, and the dangers of pot smoking,

effecting seratonin levels in the brain yadda yadda, I

went on for a while, and when I was done, he shrugged

his shoulders and said, " Well, it's against the law. "

Another positive aspect of AS! (many being

disinclined to break the law or rules...)

[Guest guest]

Parrish Wrote:

>That's true, but the problem often goes beyond that. Authority figures >are

>often, themselves, tormentors. I haven't seen anyone attempt to respond >to

>this particular problem yet: if an AC child is bullied and tormented by >his

>classmates, beaten by his parents, and harassed by authority figures who

>tell him/her that everyone else's behavior is the AC's fault, well, then,

>where, exactly, is an AC child supposed to turn for help? For that >matter,

>what reason would the AC child have to even realize that there was >anything

>wrong? If every waking moment of his existence consists of being >tormented

>by every other human being he ever encounters, he'll probably just go on

>the assumption -- as I did -- that the entire human race is really little

>more than a pack of wolves who will strike at the first opportunity, just

>for the sheer entertainment value of doing so.

I had this exact problem. I went to a catholic school, and those people could

care less about kids being abused. I was told, at 8 years old, that everything

was my fault. When I asked what I did wrong, they told me I was too negative

and not friendly enough. Those bastards. They never gave a damn about me- just

ignoring me and covering thier own asses. How in the hell can an adult blame a

child for abuse? Some of the other kid's mothers did the same. Somehow, I

always knew they were wrong, especially since I could not fathom what I did

upset anyone- I was the victim here!! How is anyone who is bullied and abused

24/7 NOT going to be negative? Why would I WANT to be friendly to people who

seemed to have the worst intent for me on thier minds?! It's just more NT

excuses to abuse those who are different.

My family was very unsupportive- my dad made fun of me all the time.

So much for support, huh? My brain saved me- I got into a few non-substance 12

step programs that allowed me to learn and practice social skills. Lots of

those people avoided me and made fun of me, but those that gave me pieces of the

social puzzle were helpful. And I had ONE good therapist who actually cared.

She explained social rules to me, little by little. Of couse, since she was

great, and real, and honest, she went out of buisness. Any other therapist I've

seen was worthless or told me exactly the wrong things to do, and then I found

out through trial and error, the hard way.

>(To be honest, I'm still

>not convinced that's not the case, but I don't want to digress.)

Me neither.

Jeanette

[Guest guest]

I wonder if that’s an Aspie thing? Even when my dad was screaming

at me that I was useless and stupid, and my brothers telling me

that I was ugly and stupid, and my sisters telling me I was just

stupid, I never internalized any of it. I knew they were wrong,

that I wasn’t useless or ugly or stupid. I knew that they were

just saying that to try to hurt me, and I refused to be hurt by

it.

My husband says the same thing about when he was growing up. He

never believed anyone who said derogatory things about him to

him.

Louis

From: Jeanette

Somehow, I always knew they were wrong, especially since I could

not fathom what I did upset anyone- I was the victim here!! How

is anyone who is bullied and abused 24/7 NOT going to be

negative? Why would I WANT to be friendly to people who seemed

to have the worst intent for me on thier minds?! It's just more

NT excuses to abuse those who are different.

My family was very unsupportive- my dad made fun of me all the

time.

Jeanette

[Guest guest]

Louise Gainor danced around singing:

>I wonder if that's an Aspie thing? Even when my dad was screaming

>at me that I was useless and stupid, and my brothers telling me

>that I was ugly and stupid, and my sisters telling me I was just

>stupid, I never internalized any of it.

Nope, not an AS thing at all. To the contrary, a fairly common aspect of

autism is the inability to distinguish instinctively between

truth/falsehood, regardless of the reason/method that the message is

relayed. I believe it's supposed to be a subset of the Theory Of Mind

issues, iirc. In any event, serious depression is extremely common among

people on the spectrum largely because of the verbal/emotional abuse we

sustain on top of all the physical mistreatment.

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

" Screw normality. Normality is overrated. " -- K. Yelbis

[Guest guest]

I wonder why I never believed them. Pride? Difficulty in

accepting criticism?

Something to think about.

Louis

From: DeGraf

Louise Gainor danced around singing:

>I wonder if that's an Aspie thing? Even when my dad was

screaming

>at me that I was useless and stupid, and my brothers telling me

>that I was ugly and stupid, and my sisters telling me I was just

>stupid, I never internalized any of it.

Nope, not an AS thing at all. To the contrary, a fairly common

aspect of

autism is the inability to distinguish instinctively between

truth/falsehood, regardless of the reason/method that the message

is

relayed. I believe it's supposed to be a subset of the Theory Of

Mind

issues, iirc. In any event, serious depression is extremely

common among

people on the spectrum largely because of the verbal/emotional

abuse we

sustain on top of all the physical mistreatment.