RE: AC-NT communication exhaustion

[Guest guest]

You have said some important things today .

I think I understand what you mean about your aide and why she is good at

what she does...it seems to fit with things that I have noticed.

As far as I can tell, most people react to others by adapting pre-formed

ideas and their perception of the other until they get a " fit " , I suppose

it's a kind of social shorthand that is not accurate enough for our needs,

but a far rarer kind of people patiently seek to know and understand another

one piece at a time, without the shorthand of pre-formed ideas.

I never realised the exhaustion might cut two ways either, but it makes

sense....it makes SO MUCH SENSE...

I can't help thinking of the concept of " psychic vampires " people who drain

people just be spending time with them...is that, at least sometimes, a

misinterpretation of the same thing?

I have often felt that NT people were as happy to avoid me as I was to avoid

them...never suspected it might be for almost the same reason...

Gaye

[Guest guest]

Gaye D wrote:

> I never realised the exhaustion might cut two ways either, but it

> makes sense....it makes SO MUCH SENSE...

Yes. When 's helper has to talk " autistic, " she has to drop the

easy, breezy way that NTs talk, and go into a cognitively-intensive mode

in order to translate. This NT easy, breezy manner of communication

seems to be linked to the part of the brain that does other social

things, like body language and what-not, so in our kind, it is impaired,

if present at all. So we end up using the cognitively intensive mode

for much more of our communications, if not all of them. I know that

interacting with people vocally never really feels natural to me... even

though I have been doing it so long so as to have become quite

accustomed to it, there is still an undeniable sensation that there is

something intrinsically unnatural about it.

Most NTs seem to require little effort to communicate vocally. When I

saw Shore's presentation at an autism conference (the one at

which I spoke as a panelist), he asked the audience members to raise

their hands if they thought that conversing with someone was a

cognitively-intensive activity. I was seated with several members of

the Phoenix adult autistic group, and all of our hands went up (mine

included). A few others also raised their hands, but probably 99% did

not. , after seeing the few hands that had been raised,

commented that there must be several autistic spectrum people in the

audience (which was accurate).

That rather surprised me, as I thought that everyone would realize that

this is a cognitive activity. I mean, when you are listening to someone

talk, you are thinking of their words... it is not like body language,

where the NT sees it and interprets it without ever thinking about it.

I guess it is so easy that NTs do not have to put any real effort into

it, even though it is cognitively based, and so they do not find it to

be as cognitive as I do.

It is very much cognitive for me to communicate. I have trouble

speaking or writing on a topic extemporaneously-- if I have done the

thinking or said or written the words before, I can do pretty well, as

in my response to A. Capir's question about sensory issues. I had

thought all of what I wrote before, so it was easy. Spreaking on a

topic for which I was not prepared can be a big problem. I cannot think

and talk at the same time well at all, so I am liable to say words that

make no sense and to talk in a slow and stilted manner. This is why I

rehearse conversations in advance where possible. I anticipate what

will be said, and I hack out my responses while pacing or rocking in my

home. I have always done this, and I am pretty good at anticipating

what will be said, so it flows pretty naturally to me.

What is funny about this is that people often tell me how articulate I

am. They have no idea how much preparation goes into being articulate.

Really, I am only articulate about subjects I am obsessed with, because

those are the subjects about which I think for hours at a time. My

thoughts generally originate as spatial or visual concepts, but as I

refine them and think about them, I am able to convert them to verbal

concepts... which works well, because I have the verbal and the original

thought in mind at once, and it helps me to understand, and to help

others understand. This uses the strong associative abilities of my

mind, and it works for me. By the time the concept is ready to be

talked about or put into an article or a list post, I am thinking of it

mostly verbally. There are, though, many times when I cannot put a

concept into words adequately, and it is most frustrating, because I can

see the concept so clearly in my mind.

Most of my articles take me hours or even days to write. Most of the

process does not involve sitting at the computer and typing. It

involves rolling ideas around in my head, putting them to words, and

computing the structure of the article. I often pace around the house

furiously when I am doing this. When I have it pretty well assembled in

my head, I sit and type it all out.

That reminds me of the many times I have read about people saying that

rational thought depends on language. That is so ridiculous to me.

Dolphins, chimpanzees, and other mammals show evidence of rational

thought and even theory-of-mind, but they have no human-style language.

Do we really think that while dolphins are thinking, they are hearing

squeaks and clicks in their mind, describing the concepts about which

the dolphin is thinking? I don't think so.

> I can't help thinking of the concept of " psychic vampires " people who

> drain people just be spending time with them...is that, at least

> sometimes, a misinterpretation of the same thing?

Possibly.

[Guest guest]

Subject: AC-NT communication exhaustion

I sent this to another list first. It's slightly modified.

I learned something about AC/NT communication that I should have

predicted but had never thought of, today.

My current aide is *very* good at what she does. She's getting to be a

friend (I think), too. I noticed early on that she had a characteristic

I normally associate with a certain subset of ACs: A desire to learn to

communicate with me (or anyone else she was dealing with) on a very

individual level and to learn the other person's way of communicating.

She also has a fundamental respect that I really admire. And as I

predicted, as time went on and we learned more about each other, we

communicated better. She was clearly not autistic, but she had this

trait (it's not that I think a non-autistic person could never have this

trait, but rather that most non-autistic people I've known don't have

the incentive to bother to learn it, that autistic people do have).

Today, we were training a new aide. And my current one said something

that surprised me (before anyone asks, I *did* consent to be described

in the third person here):

" Communicating with takes a lot of work. I really like her, but

it's hard to always watch how I talk and how I move to make sure she

understands what I'm saying and doing, and to watch how she talks and

how she moves and interpret it the way she means it, and to take her at

face value. I often get out of her house and don't want to talk or

interact with anyone else the rest of the day, because it's so

draining. Yesterday, my friend and I went to the beach with her, and we

all had a lot of fun, but after all that time, I just wanted to sit

there with my eyes closed. My friend asked me if I was okay, and I said

yes, it was just that monitoring my interactions with someone that much

is exhausting. "

That's a paraphrase, of course. But the general idea is there.

My response was (again paraphrased), " Wow. That's exactly how I feel

when I interact with almost *anybody*. I feel the same way when you

leave -- I enjoyed spending time with you but I'm exhausted because

you're a person, and people take work to interact with, especially

non-autistic people. I didn't realize that an NT doing the same work

would get exhausted in the same way I do, but it makes total sense,

because attempts to communicate across certain levels of difference take

a lot of work, and that's what I have to do with every person I talk to

every day. "

I had no clue that NTs got exhausted by interaction with me as much as I

get exhausted by interaction with them, and moreover that we were

exhausted for the same reasons. When my aide leaves, I usually am so

overloaded I don't want to deal with anyone, and I just lie there

exhausted for awhile not even wanting to think about language. I am

used to putting in a lot of effort and getting very little effort in

return (by random people on the street who either want to interpret me

as either exactly like them or write me off as so different as to be

pointless to talk to), and it appears that when that effort exists, the

exhaustion exists on both sides too, even if the other person is not

normally exhausted by social interaction.

I found this interesting. It seems that my social exhaustion has a lot

to do with having to do all the things she said she does with me

(constantly monitor expressive and receptive communication), only with

*everyone*. Her social exhaustion appears to mainly come in when

dealing with me or someone else 'different'.

Of course, this is only one person, not a big sample. But she's also

the only NT I know who's been able to learn to communicate with me to

this degree. A larger sample would be nice, but it seems that there are

very few NTs who have both the ability and the inclination to meet me

halfway with communication, and the proximity to me to do so.

, who today also discovered the absolute limit of what her legs

would take before giving out entirely, and who next time will refuse to

even attempt to climb *five* flights of stairs (and who is now going to

be very nice to her legs for awhile) (usually, I refuse to climb even

*one*, but I was being *stupid* today)

very interesting. i arranged an online chat about relationships. over 20 AC in

chat room and a world renowned autism expert. i was sitting with him while he

chatted. was amazed to see him start to get very restless, shifting around a

lot in his seat. then he started to get very upset. he thought that he was

being challenged aggressively for no reason by the person to whom he was talking

at the time. i realized the problem. that person does something i do too.

instead of asking questions that clarify issues, i often make statements that

are there to be tested for validity. people get furious. when i explained the

interaction to autism expert, he understood, and they proceeded to have a

mutually satisfying exchange. the person across the world would not ahve been

aware of the effect on autism expert. was very interesting to see that happen.

i have worked out why i do not often question rl. to ask a question, you need

to have a fair idea of what you do not know. when i do not know something, i

usually have blank instead of thoughts. nothing there, so i do not know what i

do not know. metacognition gone. testing statements is an important

substitute. its good to have that awareness, because i can tell people that i

test statements, and some remember and deal with it. makes communication less

stressful.

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

What I find is that NTs think I am a fabulous communicator, while, quite

simultaneously, failing to get my point or near it, and for some weird

reason failing to relate those two concepts.

That can be very, very exasperating...I think because, in the absence of

anything else at all, I learned NT communication as one might learn the

language of ballet...

I can do a creditable " dance " that would convince anybody, but it's pure

mimicary, I have no real control over the meaning it conveys, beyond any

objective " strategy " I may have planned in advance, if appropriate, and if

the situation gets too personally interactive I am in serious trouble.

I think strategic, impersonal communications such as lectures and broadcasts

come more easily to me than to NTs because of that...I have no personal

communiction style to foul the strategy, but life is NOT one long radio

phone in...

But personal interaction is a nightmare...

Gaye

[Guest guest]

grobertson (who doesn't " clip and quote, " alas) wrote:

>very interesting. i arranged an online chat about relationships. over 20

>AC in chat room and a world renowned autism expert. i was sitting with

>him while he chatted. was amazed to see him start to get very restless,

>shifting around a lot in his seat. then he started to get very upset. he

>thought that he was being challenged aggressively for no reason by the

>person to whom he was talking at the time. i realized the problem. that

>person does something i do too. instead of asking questions that clarify

>issues, i often make statements that are there to be tested for validity.

>people get furious.

I do that, too, with the same kinds of reactions. Always

takes me by surprise. I've been told several times (by

different people on autism-related lists) that, to judge

by my postings, I am a very " kind " person. Apparently I

do not come across like that in " real life. "

Jane

[Guest guest]

wrote:

>Most of my articles take me hours or even days to write. Most of the

>process does not involve sitting at the computer and typing. It

>involves rolling ideas around in my head, putting them to words, and

>computing the structure of the article. I often pace around the house

>furiously when I am doing this. When I have it pretty well assembled in

>my head, I sit and type it all out.

When I'm in the process of thinking out an essay, I often

add to it while walking to work. What I mean is: I will

be in the process of " rolling ideas around in my head, "

as you put it (very accurtely). I am likely to be what is

seen as " obsessed " at that stage. Most of my mind is

working on the essay, though the ideas are not in words

or sentences yet. Anyway...as I walk, an idea connects

itself to the other ideas rolling around in my mind, and

I have to stop and make a note (so that the wrenching of

my focus onto job-related chores will not cause the newly

connected idea to drift away before I have a chance to

integrate it).

I suspect I might look a bit more strange than usual

on days when I'm working on an essay. Not only muttering

as I walk, but occasionally stopping to make notes.

Jane

[Guest guest]

> As far as I can tell, most people react to others by adapting pre-formed

> ideas and their perception of the other until they get a " fit " , I suppose

> it's a kind of social shorthand that is not accurate enough for our needs,

> but a far rarer kind of people patiently seek to know and understand another

> one piece at a time, without the shorthand of pre-formed ideas.

She may actually have started with a shorthand, but adapted it in more

detail than most people do.

> I never realised the exhaustion might cut two ways either, but it makes

> sense....it makes SO MUCH SENSE...

Yes, it does.

> I can't help thinking of the concept of " psychic vampires " people who drain

> people just be spending time with them...is that, at least sometimes, a

> misinterpretation of the same thing?

Yes, sometimes it is. There are also people who attempt to do that on

purpose, and make no secret of it.

However, quite often there are other things at work when a person is

accused of that. Literature on the subject reveals a lot of people

saying that it's often a very sick person who " doesn't know they're

taking energy from other people " . Well, it can be emotionally draining

to be around someone you care about who is sick and/or hurt. But

neither of these things are vampirism. (I've heard of one case in which

someone actually talked his disabled wife into suicide by convincing her

she was a psychic vampire and that dying was the only way to stop

that.)

Too often, " psychic vampirism " is used when someone doesn't *want* to

either care about or care for someone, but for whatever reason either

can't or won't distance themselves. And when used that way in

conjunction with disability or emotional distress, it can be a

*profoundly* ableist term, much like some economics people call us

" leeches " and " burdens on society " .

My dog is terminally ill right now, and I'm *incredibly* drained as a

result. She also perks up and becomes healthier-seeming when I'm

around, including going at one point from very labored breathing to

jumping up with her tail wagging and breathing fine as soon as I got

near her. She is not sucking my energy. She is happier when I'm around

because I'm the first human she had more than a month's contact with. I

raised her. I'm her family at this point, and while she lives with my

family at the moment, she and I have a particularly close bond with each

other. I am exhausted because it hurts to see what's happening to her,

to know what *will* happen to her, and because it is tiring to advocate

for her. (This does *not* mean I wouldn't do it. She's worth all that

and much more to me.) My dog is not a vampire; she's *dying*.

I myself have been accused of psychic vampirism. This is what caused me

to research it so thoroughly, to read things by people who *call*

themselves that, and what they experience, and to read things supposedly

*about* the phenomenon. It's my understanding (from reading things by

people who claim to both believe in and practice this) that when such

people " drain energy " from people, they do so very consciously, and get

a very specific and somewhat addictive " rush " from it.

As for myself, spending time around people drains me as much as or more

than it drains them. I have to spend a long time recovering. I think

that when I am accused of vampirism, it is usually from people who for

whatever reason put a lot of energy into trying to interact with me or

figure me out. (I was once even accused of it *by someone claiming to

be a vampire*. She said I clearly " needed the attention and energy "

just like she did, and that she would allow me to " feed " from her. I

believe I got as far away as possible.) If I were truly what people

refer to as a psychic vampire, I think I would actually benefit from the

interaction more than be drained by it, and I think I would have noticed

by now.

I have been told by people much closer to me, and who do believe in that

concept, that I'm most emphatically *not* the same thing. That I am

exhausting to be around, but that this results from a combination of

other factors completely unrelated to the one by which people accuse

each other of psychic vampirism. One person has told me explicitly that

people who accuse people like me of being vampires are people who aren't

willing to take responsibility for the amount of energy *they* put into

interactions with me.

So that's the long version of " Yes, sometimes when people say 'psychic

vampire', they really mean 'someone they put a lot of energy into

interacting with'. " If being drained by interaction were the criteria

for a " psychic vampire " , and I were the judge, then the entire *world*

would be a legion of psychic vampires, all intent on draining *me*.

Which I sincerely doubt to be the case.

> I have often felt that NT people were as happy to avoid me as I was to avoid

> them...never suspected it might be for almost the same reason...

It could be.

--

" Voluntary treatment remains so only as long as the word " no " remains

unspoken; with its utterance, how easily can that treatment be made

involuntary! " -Shoshanna Moser

[Guest guest]

Hi .

One psychic vampirism...I think for a lot of people that is quite rare. I

get the impression that somebody mentions " psychic vampires " ...

Then somebody else says:

" What do you mean by that? "

And the answer is something like:

" Have you ever met one of those people who drains your energy just by being

in ther same room? "

And everybody thinks of any time they were left drained by being with a

person, says " U-huh " and in at least some of those people a

misunderstanding-for-life has been born?

When I mentioned it earlier I was going to suggest that the true psychic

vampire is maybe artificially constructing a similar situation to the

exhaustion we feel, which is probably quite easy to do, if you can think of

a reason to do it.

From reading your mail I am beginning to think that I have had my own

misunderstanding of " psychic vampires " up to a point...I have known a lot of

psychopaths and I find the rapid fire manipulation of some of them generates

enough cognitive dissonance to leave me worn out, with a roaring headache,

and I always assumed that is, pretty much, what a " psychic vampire " is.

But from what you say it seems there is more to this...and I would concur

from my own very limited experience. I can think of a man I knew who

delighted in wearing others out (or wearing them down), not just

psychologically, physically would suit him just as well, charging around

fields in a manner nobody could keep up with...must be a part of the same

thing? Another level...

I don't believe sick people drain us, beyond the pain of seeing them suffer

and the effort of caring for them.

I think of you and your dog often. I hope it is no harder than it has to be

for either of you.

***

(I was once even accused of it *by someone claiming to

be a vampire*. She said I clearly " needed the attention and energy "

just like she did, and that she would allow me to " feed " from her. I

believe I got as far away as possible.)

***

I believe you made a remarkably efficient " social choice " there...WHAT A

WEIRDO!!

Gaye