Guest guest Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Hi , I turned down 4 pre-purchase mold testing requests TODAY. The real estate market must be picking up. Usually I'm turning down about 5 a week. I am so tired of hearing about mold in the attic and mold in the crawl space needing to be tested (to see if it is toxic) or the lawyer requiring a certification that there is "no mold". I spend so much time on the phone turning down these jobs while trying to educate people that it can sometimes take hours out of my day. If I had a boss, he'd never let me waste company time like that. I'm fortunate to be able to cherry pick the better consulting work where I can offer a service of value to my clients. Regards, Steve Temes Curtis, Have recently seen 3 properties not reach closing because the home or mold inspector had a report that said “visible mold in the crawl space.†I live outside of Atlantic City, NJ where everything is a crawl space. Upon our inspection we found all 3 crawls to be in pretty good condition, considering their age and the shore elements. We found nothing visible in the home’s occupied areas. As you said….reaction to worthless reports and misconceptions. RE: Re: Insurance , Yes, and it is becoming increasingly common to also see loan underwriters reacting to these worthless reports by requiring that the home be remediated and "certified" as "mold free". Sigh. It's kind of like the blind leading the deaf... Curtis Redington, RS Environmental Quality Specialist City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health Wichita, KS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004 Hi , I turned down 4 pre-purchase mold testing requests TODAY. The real estate market must be picking up. Usually I'm turning down about 5 a week. I am so tired of hearing about mold in the attic and mold in the crawl space needing to be tested (to see if it is toxic) or the lawyer requiring a certification that there is "no mold". I spend so much time on the phone turning down these jobs while trying to educate people that it can sometimes take hours out of my day. If I had a boss, he'd never let me waste company time like that. I'm fortunate to be able to cherry pick the better consulting work where I can offer a service of value to my clients. Regards, Steve Temes Curtis, Have recently seen 3 properties not reach closing because the home or mold inspector had a report that said “visible mold in the crawl space.†I live outside of Atlantic City, NJ where everything is a crawl space. Upon our inspection we found all 3 crawls to be in pretty good condition, considering their age and the shore elements. We found nothing visible in the home’s occupied areas. As you said….reaction to worthless reports and misconceptions. RE: Re: Insurance , Yes, and it is becoming increasingly common to also see loan underwriters reacting to these worthless reports by requiring that the home be remediated and "certified" as "mold free". Sigh. It's kind of like the blind leading the deaf... Curtis Redington, RS Environmental Quality Specialist City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health Wichita, KS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004  Steve and others Because houses are usually so air leaky, mold in the attic or in the crawl space are also in the breathing space of the house, attenuated by the limiting tightness of the barrier between them. In the heating season, something in the crawl space can move easily up into the house if the air barrier between the house and that crawl space is leaky. Stack effect usually drives the flow and the problem seems to go away when the cooling season arrives. During the cooling season the stack-effect driven flow reverses and what is in the attic can sometimes communicate well with the house air below, as attic air comes down through air leaks in the ceiling (pot lights being a prime source in many houses, but a large number of other openings often exist). Before you tell people that mold in the crawl space or attic is not important you need to know what these air barrier components look like. If they are relatively intact, there may be little flow. If they are as tight as Swiss cheese, ther may be little separation and indoor exposures may be high. For decades now we have been pushing for better air barriers in houses for just this reason, but in Canada it is still an air/vapour barrier. That is in the code but is a nonsense concept (Oh well, just because the physical processes driving flow, and the components that best resist flow are different, why not lump them together?!) In the US there is little progress in getting air barriers into the code, even though they are really important, for several reasons. Jim H. White SSAL RE: Re: Insurance ,Yes, and it is becoming increasingly common to also see loan underwritersreacting to these worthless reports by requiring that the home be remediatedand "certified" as "mold free". Sigh. It's kind of like the blind leadingthe deaf...Curtis Redington, RSEnvironmental Quality SpecialistCity of Wichita Dept. of Environmental HealthWichita, KSFAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2004 Report Share Posted June 4, 2004  Steve and others Because houses are usually so air leaky, mold in the attic or in the crawl space are also in the breathing space of the house, attenuated by the limiting tightness of the barrier between them. In the heating season, something in the crawl space can move easily up into the house if the air barrier between the house and that crawl space is leaky. Stack effect usually drives the flow and the problem seems to go away when the cooling season arrives. During the cooling season the stack-effect driven flow reverses and what is in the attic can sometimes communicate well with the house air below, as attic air comes down through air leaks in the ceiling (pot lights being a prime source in many houses, but a large number of other openings often exist). Before you tell people that mold in the crawl space or attic is not important you need to know what these air barrier components look like. If they are relatively intact, there may be little flow. If they are as tight as Swiss cheese, ther may be little separation and indoor exposures may be high. For decades now we have been pushing for better air barriers in houses for just this reason, but in Canada it is still an air/vapour barrier. That is in the code but is a nonsense concept (Oh well, just because the physical processes driving flow, and the components that best resist flow are different, why not lump them together?!) In the US there is little progress in getting air barriers into the code, even though they are really important, for several reasons. Jim H. White SSAL RE: Re: Insurance ,Yes, and it is becoming increasingly common to also see loan underwritersreacting to these worthless reports by requiring that the home be remediatedand "certified" as "mold free". Sigh. It's kind of like the blind leadingthe deaf...Curtis Redington, RSEnvironmental Quality SpecialistCity of Wichita Dept. of Environmental HealthWichita, KSFAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 Jim, Your points are well taken. Don't discount the venturi effect, either, whereby a higher velocity of air translates into a lower pressure. Air will follow the path of least resistance traveling from an area of higher pressure to an area of relatively lower pressure. In the summer, when the windows throughout the house are open and you get good cross-ventilation, air from the attic and/or crawl space can enter the living space via the potential openings that you mention. I do not think mold in the attic or crawl space is not a problem in general. I have personally inspected many hundreds of attics and crawl spaces and it may be a huge problem (and I always assess the potential for communication with the occupied space). To clarify, what I specifically said was that I will not test mold in an attic or crawl space as part of a real estate transaction to find out what kind of mold it is and if it is "toxic" as many home inspectors, attorneys and buyers think is necessary. "What if it isn't toxic?", I ask them. Then they will buy the house. I'm simply not going to get pulled into that situation. You will be happy to know that what I do when I turn down the testing work is give them the names of a couple of qualified microbial remediation contractors to remove the visible growth and clean the space after the moisture source(s) have been identified and eliminated or controlled. In this real estate scenario, even if I think that the visible mold is not a health risk because it is not a significant amount or there is little communication with the occupied space, I always point out that there are re-sale aspects to consider. I may advise the buyer to negotiate to have the mold remediated simply so s/he doesn't get stuck paying the remediation bill when they sell the house and the next inspector finds it. Whatever they do, I'm not about to get into the middle of silly arguments about mold between uninformed realtors, closing attorneys, buyers and sellers and be under pressure to get the report of the results out in a ridiculously short period of time (usually before the end of a 10-day inspection period). There isn't even time to get the results of a culture sample if I did do testing. Been there, done that with real estate and radon testing, which is non-controversial by comparison, and I don't need the aggravation. The irony is that sometimes the remediation contractors may require that testing be done before and after their work in the attic or crawl space. I won't do that testing either. How do you clear a dirt floor crawl space? Like I said, I'm fortunate to be able to select the work I want to do (and there are enough land mines in those jobs). Steve Temes Steve and others Because houses are usually so air leaky, mold in the attic or in the crawl space are also in the breathing space of the house, attenuated by the limiting tightness of the barrier between them. In the heating season, something in the crawl space can move easily up into the house if the air barrier between the house and that crawl space is leaky. Stack effect usually drives the flow and the problem seems to go away when the cooling season arrives. During the cooling season the stack-effect driven flow reverses and what is in the attic can sometimes communicate well with the house air below, as attic air comes down through air leaks in the ceiling (pot lights being a prime source in many houses, but a large number of other openings often exist). Before you tell people that mold in the crawl space or attic is not important you need to know what these air barrier components look like. If they are relatively intact, there may be little flow. If they are as tight as Swiss cheese, ther may be little separation and indoor exposures may be high. For decades now we have been pushing for better air barriers in houses for just this reason, but in Canada it is still an air/vapour barrier. That is in the code but is a nonsense concept (Oh well, just because the physical processes driving flow, and the components that best resist flow are different, why not lump them together?!) In the US there is little progress in getting air barriers into the code, even though they are really important, for several reasons. Jim H. White SSAL Re: Re: Insurance Hi , I turned down 4 pre-purchase mold testing requests TODAY. The real estate market must be picking up. Usually I'm turning down about 5 a week. I am so tired of hearing about mold in the attic and mold in the crawl space needing to be tested (to see if it is toxic) or the lawyer requiring a certification that there is "no mold". I spend so much time on the phone turning down these jobs while trying to educate people that it can sometimes take hours out of my day. If I had a boss, he'd never let me waste company time like that. I'm fortunate to be able to cherry pick the better consulting work where I can offer a service of value to my clients. Regards, Steve Temes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 Jim, Your points are well taken. Don't discount the venturi effect, either, whereby a higher velocity of air translates into a lower pressure. Air will follow the path of least resistance traveling from an area of higher pressure to an area of relatively lower pressure. In the summer, when the windows throughout the house are open and you get good cross-ventilation, air from the attic and/or crawl space can enter the living space via the potential openings that you mention. I do not think mold in the attic or crawl space is not a problem in general. I have personally inspected many hundreds of attics and crawl spaces and it may be a huge problem (and I always assess the potential for communication with the occupied space). To clarify, what I specifically said was that I will not test mold in an attic or crawl space as part of a real estate transaction to find out what kind of mold it is and if it is "toxic" as many home inspectors, attorneys and buyers think is necessary. "What if it isn't toxic?", I ask them. Then they will buy the house. I'm simply not going to get pulled into that situation. You will be happy to know that what I do when I turn down the testing work is give them the names of a couple of qualified microbial remediation contractors to remove the visible growth and clean the space after the moisture source(s) have been identified and eliminated or controlled. In this real estate scenario, even if I think that the visible mold is not a health risk because it is not a significant amount or there is little communication with the occupied space, I always point out that there are re-sale aspects to consider. I may advise the buyer to negotiate to have the mold remediated simply so s/he doesn't get stuck paying the remediation bill when they sell the house and the next inspector finds it. Whatever they do, I'm not about to get into the middle of silly arguments about mold between uninformed realtors, closing attorneys, buyers and sellers and be under pressure to get the report of the results out in a ridiculously short period of time (usually before the end of a 10-day inspection period). There isn't even time to get the results of a culture sample if I did do testing. Been there, done that with real estate and radon testing, which is non-controversial by comparison, and I don't need the aggravation. The irony is that sometimes the remediation contractors may require that testing be done before and after their work in the attic or crawl space. I won't do that testing either. How do you clear a dirt floor crawl space? Like I said, I'm fortunate to be able to select the work I want to do (and there are enough land mines in those jobs). Steve Temes Steve and others Because houses are usually so air leaky, mold in the attic or in the crawl space are also in the breathing space of the house, attenuated by the limiting tightness of the barrier between them. In the heating season, something in the crawl space can move easily up into the house if the air barrier between the house and that crawl space is leaky. Stack effect usually drives the flow and the problem seems to go away when the cooling season arrives. During the cooling season the stack-effect driven flow reverses and what is in the attic can sometimes communicate well with the house air below, as attic air comes down through air leaks in the ceiling (pot lights being a prime source in many houses, but a large number of other openings often exist). Before you tell people that mold in the crawl space or attic is not important you need to know what these air barrier components look like. If they are relatively intact, there may be little flow. If they are as tight as Swiss cheese, ther may be little separation and indoor exposures may be high. For decades now we have been pushing for better air barriers in houses for just this reason, but in Canada it is still an air/vapour barrier. That is in the code but is a nonsense concept (Oh well, just because the physical processes driving flow, and the components that best resist flow are different, why not lump them together?!) In the US there is little progress in getting air barriers into the code, even though they are really important, for several reasons. Jim H. White SSAL Re: Re: Insurance Hi , I turned down 4 pre-purchase mold testing requests TODAY. The real estate market must be picking up. Usually I'm turning down about 5 a week. I am so tired of hearing about mold in the attic and mold in the crawl space needing to be tested (to see if it is toxic) or the lawyer requiring a certification that there is "no mold". I spend so much time on the phone turning down these jobs while trying to educate people that it can sometimes take hours out of my day. If I had a boss, he'd never let me waste company time like that. I'm fortunate to be able to cherry pick the better consulting work where I can offer a service of value to my clients. Regards, Steve Temes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 Jim, You are 100% right. Very few inspectors are even aware of the physical factors that may be responsible for the infiltration of fungal spores and other pollutants from the attic and crawl spaces. I spent years knocking my head against the wall doing basic diagnostics with blower doors and such, but nobody was interested nor willing to pay...as usual. Shapiro > Steve and others > Because houses are usually so air leaky, mold in the attic or in the crawl space are also in the breathing space of the house, attenuated by the limiting tightness of the barrier between them. In the heating season, something in the crawl space can move easily up into the house if the air barrier between the house and that crawl space is leaky. Stack effect usually drives the flow and the problem seems to go away when the cooling season arrives. > > During the cooling season the stack-effect driven flow reverses and what is in the attic can sometimes communicate well with the house air below, as attic air comes down through air leaks in the ceiling (pot lights being a prime source in many houses, but a large number of other openings often exist). > > Before you tell people that mold in the crawl space or attic is not important you need to know what these air barrier components look like. If they are relatively intact, there may be little flow. If they are as tight as Swiss cheese, ther may be little separation and indoor exposures may be high. > > For decades now we have been pushing for better air barriers in houses for just this reason, but in Canada it is still an air/vapour barrier. That is in the code but is a nonsense concept (Oh well, just because the physical processes driving flow, and the components that best resist flow are different, why not lump them together?!) In the US there is little progress in getting air barriers into the code, even though they are really important, for several reasons. > > Jim H. White SSAL > > RE: Re: Insurance > > > > , > > Yes, and it is becoming increasingly common to also see loan underwriters > reacting to these worthless reports by requiring that the home be remediated > and " certified " as " mold free " . Sigh. It's kind of like the blind leading > the deaf... > > Curtis Redington, RS > Environmental Quality Specialist > City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health > Wichita, KS > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2004 Report Share Posted June 5, 2004 Jim, You are 100% right. Very few inspectors are even aware of the physical factors that may be responsible for the infiltration of fungal spores and other pollutants from the attic and crawl spaces. I spent years knocking my head against the wall doing basic diagnostics with blower doors and such, but nobody was interested nor willing to pay...as usual. Shapiro > Steve and others > Because houses are usually so air leaky, mold in the attic or in the crawl space are also in the breathing space of the house, attenuated by the limiting tightness of the barrier between them. In the heating season, something in the crawl space can move easily up into the house if the air barrier between the house and that crawl space is leaky. Stack effect usually drives the flow and the problem seems to go away when the cooling season arrives. > > During the cooling season the stack-effect driven flow reverses and what is in the attic can sometimes communicate well with the house air below, as attic air comes down through air leaks in the ceiling (pot lights being a prime source in many houses, but a large number of other openings often exist). > > Before you tell people that mold in the crawl space or attic is not important you need to know what these air barrier components look like. If they are relatively intact, there may be little flow. If they are as tight as Swiss cheese, ther may be little separation and indoor exposures may be high. > > For decades now we have been pushing for better air barriers in houses for just this reason, but in Canada it is still an air/vapour barrier. That is in the code but is a nonsense concept (Oh well, just because the physical processes driving flow, and the components that best resist flow are different, why not lump them together?!) In the US there is little progress in getting air barriers into the code, even though they are really important, for several reasons. > > Jim H. White SSAL > > RE: Re: Insurance > > > > , > > Yes, and it is becoming increasingly common to also see loan underwriters > reacting to these worthless reports by requiring that the home be remediated > and " certified " as " mold free " . Sigh. It's kind of like the blind leading > the deaf... > > Curtis Redington, RS > Environmental Quality Specialist > City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health > Wichita, KS > > > > > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 I turned down 4 pre-purchase mold testing requests TODAY. The real estate market must be picking up. Usually I'm turning down about 5 a week. I am so tired of hearing about mold in the attic and mold in the crawl space needing to be tested (to see if it is toxic) or the lawyer requiring a certification that there is " no mold " . I spend so much time on the phone turning down these jobs while trying to educate people that it can sometimes take hours out of my day. If I had a boss, he'd never let me waste company time like that. I'm fortunate to be able to cherry pick the better consulting work where I can offer a service of value to my clients. I don't know, Steve. From my perspective, you might be turning down a business opportunity. I agree about the mold-testing stuff being a waste; but why not offer to do a moisture problem inspection? I can see such an inspection as being both helpful and more sound science. ************************************************************ K. Klein, PE ME, MBA Indoor Air Quality Solutions, Inc. PO Box 7 Bethel, OH 45106-0007 VOICE: FAX: E-mail: mkklein68@... ************************************************************ Wouldn't it be nice if common sense were really common? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 I turned down 4 pre-purchase mold testing requests TODAY. The real estate market must be picking up. Usually I'm turning down about 5 a week. I am so tired of hearing about mold in the attic and mold in the crawl space needing to be tested (to see if it is toxic) or the lawyer requiring a certification that there is " no mold " . I spend so much time on the phone turning down these jobs while trying to educate people that it can sometimes take hours out of my day. If I had a boss, he'd never let me waste company time like that. I'm fortunate to be able to cherry pick the better consulting work where I can offer a service of value to my clients. I don't know, Steve. From my perspective, you might be turning down a business opportunity. I agree about the mold-testing stuff being a waste; but why not offer to do a moisture problem inspection? I can see such an inspection as being both helpful and more sound science. ************************************************************ K. Klein, PE ME, MBA Indoor Air Quality Solutions, Inc. PO Box 7 Bethel, OH 45106-0007 VOICE: FAX: E-mail: mkklein68@... ************************************************************ Wouldn't it be nice if common sense were really common? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2004 Report Share Posted June 7, 2004 I don't know, Steve. From my perspective, you might be turning down a business opportunity. I agree about the mold-testing stuff being a waste; but why not offer to do a moisture problem inspection? I can see such an inspection as being both helpful and more sound science. , Do you do much pre-purchase inspection work? They want testing. It may seem strange, but I turn down many business "opportunities" a day. I have developed a sixth sense about business prospects over the years and have come to learn that the best way to stay out of trouble is to simply turn down certain work. The time constraints in a real estate transaction are one of the main reasons I don't want to do it. Another has to do with opinions of realtors and attorneys and sellers and other professionals who don't know what they are talking about. I wouldn't have the time to do all the work I can get, anyway. I'm usually way behind getting reports out as it is. And no, I'm not interested in expanding my business. I'm more of an independent consultant than I am a competitive commercial business entity. I want quality work, not volume. I want to earn a living without killing myself with stress. If, after buying a house, someone wants me to come in and consult, my sevices are available. I will do that when they own the house -- not when they are relying on my advice to negotiate the price, or deciding to buy it or not. After they own it, I will even help them build a case against the sellers or home inspector if someone really committed fraud or was negligent. More than a few times, past homeowner clients have insisted that I look at another house they are thinking of buying and I will offer to do a visual inspection (and moisture meter survey) with verbal consulting -- sometimes I will even do it during their home inspection. I have met a lot of home inspectors this way. I'm not especially proud of the fact that I have killed plenty of real estate deals in my professional career. This is exactly the kind of work I don't enjoy. And I'm pretty good at it, too. It's nice to be able to turn down work you don't want. You just have to make sure you have enough work. Steve Temes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2006 Report Share Posted May 19, 2006 I recently obtained a hospital contract to provide prenatal classes for their patients as an outsource vendor in return for classroom space. During the negotiation process, I had to provide proof of insurance-easy I thought. I had obtained malpractice insurance attached to my homeowners with State Farm, and also expanded it to cover accidents that may occur if someone came to my home office. However, when I received a confirmation letter from State Farm to forward to the hospital, it stated that I was only covered while employed by another organization. Private practitioners are now excluded. My agent stated this was a change that occurred a year ago due to the increase in malpractice costs-I was really bent since this wasn't communicated to me, and I haven't been covered for a year. When she wrote the policy four years ago, she knew what it was for (she was a LLLLeader!) but somehow the office dropped the ball on this. Insurance does vary from state to state, but I encourage anyone that has a similar situation to verify that they are still covered as PPLC's. I am currently with Marsh, paying a good deal more. Altman RN, IBCLC, LCCEAll The Bestwww.feedyourbaby.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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