Re: For the sake of discussion

[Guest guest]

can I ask what is ALARA?

As Low As Reasonably Achievable

are there city building codes to be followed regarding fresh air exchange requirements?

Building ventilation codes are design requirements, not necessarily performance requirements.

since osha doesn't have a standard for office spaces, how is a worker insured a healthy environment? ie air exchanges are followed according to codes/laws

Good question.

is there a "meter" that could be used to identify say high carbon dioxide levels that would encourage an employer to bring in more fresh air? how much would a meter cost? how easy would it be to read?

Sure, you can buy and read a CO2 meter very easily to assess ventilation in an occupied building. I don't know how the readings would be received by your employer, or the action of your taking such readings.

Steve Temes

[Guest guest]

I let the client make the final informed decision, I only make recommendations.Steve Temes

Steve and ,

That statement makes much sense. Most building managers and property managers are not experts in mold. As there are no clear cut guidelines, much of what is done is discretionary.

The way a building manager or property manager stays out of trouble while protecting the property owner and the tenant is to make full disclosure of the situation to all.. (in writing).

If a building cannot possibly be maintained to accomodate one who is extra sensitive to mold, then if the building/property manager has made the tenant aware of the scenario, it is then the tenant's informed option whether to stay or not. Through dilligent disclosure, the building manager limits his and the owner's liability. By informing the tenant, they then become responsible for their own personal health requirements.

I saw a great addendum to a lease agreement yesterday. It goes down and tells the tenant what is expected of them to deter mold growth. It also talks of water damage needing to be addressed within 24 to 48 hours. And the need to notify the landlord, ASAP. Which means all parties to the transaction now have been notified that both the tenant and the landlord have a responsibility to disclose and address. Education and full disclosure for/to all parties is key component to keeping the illnesses at a minimum, keeping tenants out of the doctors offices (no comment!).. and keeping this stuff out of the courtroom.

Sharon

[Guest guest]

,

You raise an interesting question, that we have pondered many times.

For example, when you do a remediation project in an apartment

building, who know what the health level of future tenants may be?

The difficulty in answering this question lies in defining specifically

what is the necessary difference in environmental conditions between

sensitive people or health impaired people and " normal " or average

people.

We simply do not know what are the necessary difference and in many

respective even how to accurately measure the difference.

I remember an experiment in SF a number of years ago dealing with MCS

patients. They decided to build an apartment complex out of just

concrete. No paint, No glues. No sources of VOCs. Well, when the MCS

people moved in, a number of them were still symptomatic. Clearly,

something was coming from the concrete that was affecting them.

However, the scientists were unable to measure what the mysterious

substance was.

No one doubted that these people were being affected. It is an

interesting parallel to mold related symptoms. We can't measure, at

this time and technology, what, if anything, is causing the reported

symptoms.

Is there an answer?

Would it be responsible or necessary for a building owner to make his

building as clean and sterile as a hospital? (THis of course, assumes

that hospitals are clean and sterile, which many are not. )

Therefore, somewhere between normal/average fungal ecology and hospital

ecology would seem to be appropriate.

Interestingly, on a the bacteria side, the difference in the China

bacteria standards between a 5 star hotel and a 1 star hotel might also

be appropriate.

However, exactly how does a building manager make this assessment?

Does he or she higher a person to do testing? How often? What about

poor housekeeping by the tenant? This is very expensive and in most

cases cost prohibitive.

So " what level of care " is appropriate? Good general housekeeping and

cleaning will normally produce a very clean environment from a

microbial viewpoint. Therefore, it is proper building maintenance and

repair that becomes the secondary control to maintain normal/average

fungal ecology. Isn't proper building maintenance and repair what a

building manager should already be doing?

So, is this the answer? Do what a building manager should already be

doing. Keep the building properly maintained and repaired and

regularly clean it with detergent and water.

Bob

[Guest guest]

can I ask what is ALARA?

are there city building codes to be followed regarding fresh air exchange requirements?

since osha doesn't have a standard for office spaces, how is a worker insured a healthy environment? ie air exchanges are followed according to codes/laws

is there a "meter" that could be used to identify say high carbon dioxide levels that would encourage an employer to bring in more fresh air? how much would a meter cost? how easy would it be to read?

thanks for your time and consideration.

thanks,

Lynn in St.

Re: For the sake of discussion

,In my consulting practice, I have taken the position that building managers should understand that some individuals have greater sensitivities to indoor contaminants than others and that reasonable accommodations should be provided to these individuals to maximize their productivity and minimize liability exposure. This concept of providing reasonable accommodations is in keeping with the spirit of the Americans with Disabilities Act, even though there may be no legal requirement to provide any special accommodations.I then let the building owner (or business owner) make the determination as to whether the recommendations I make with respect to the individual's "special needs" are reasonable. I have recommended that workers be relocated within the building or to a different building or even work from home and management was happy to accommodate them. Sometimes a worker simply cannot tolerate an exposure that is a necessary part of their job (i.e., a formaldehyde sensitivity in a store where particle board and pressboard are sold, or someone with a chemical sensitivity at a cosmetics counter where perfumes are sold). These people should find another job for everyone's sake. However, there can be discrimination or wrongful dismissal concerns in these cases which should be factored into the reasonable accommodation decisions.I also like to apply the ALARA principle in the sense that if something is there that shouldn't be, why not take measures to control it or eliminate it at its source? Even if it isn't bothering anyone but the sensitive complainant now, it might affect someone else in the future or even cause chemical or allergic sensitization in other occupants as a result of chronic exposure.I let the client make the final informed decision, I only make recommendations.Steve Temes

For the sake of discussion, what level of care should a building manager seek to provide for the occupants. Is he really responsible to make sure that even the most health frail among us are happy? Or is he only responsible to work toward having some intangible percentage of the population being content with the situation? Stojanik

[Guest guest]

The way a building manager or property manager stays out of trouble while protecting the property owner and the tenant is to make full disclosure of the situation to all.. (in writing).

If a building cannot possibly be maintained to accomodate one who is extra sensitive to mold, then if the building/property manager has made the tenant aware of the scenario, it is then the tenant's informed option whether to stay or not. Through dilligent disclosure, the building manager limits his and the owner's liability. By informing the tenant, they then become responsible for their own personal health requirements.

I saw a great addendum to a lease agreement yesterday. It goes down and tells the tenant what is expected of them to deter mold growth. It also talks of water damage needing to be addressed within 24 to 48 hours. And the need to notify the landlord, ASAP. Which means all parties to the transaction now have been notified that both the tenant and the landlord have a responsibility to disclose and address. Education and full disclosure for/to all parties is key component to keeping the illnesses at a minimum, keeping tenants out of the doctors offices (no comment!).. and keeping this stuff out of the courtroom.

Sharon

There you go. This is the way I like to see these things dealt with.

Sometimes moisture problems are chronic (i.e., wood-framed construction with wet slab due to absence of a vapor barrier) and diligence on everyone's part is required to preserve IAQ. In these cases, it isn't just about removing existing mold contamination, it's about managing and monitoring a moisture condition for the long term.

Steve Temes

[Guest guest]

thank you for your response Jim.

Sorry to hear you are home recovering from a health crisis.

take good care,

Lynn

Re: For the sake of discussion

,In my consulting practice, I have taken the position that building managers should understand that some individuals have greater sensitivities to indoor contaminants than others and that reasonable accommodations should be provided to these individuals to maximize their productivity and minimize liability exposure. This concept of providing reasonable accommodations is in keeping with the spirit of the Americans with Disabilities Act, even though there may be no legal requirement to provide any special accommodations.I then let the building owner (or business owner) make the determination as to whether the recommendations I make with respect to the individual's "special needs" are reasonable. I have recommended that workers be relocated within the building or to a different building or even work from home and management was happy to accommodate them. Sometimes a worker simply cannot tolerate an exposure that is a necessary part of their job (i.e., a formaldehyde sensitivity in a store where particle board and pressboard are sold, or someone with a chemical sensitivity at a cosmetics counter where perfumes are sold). These people should find another job for everyone's sake. However, there can be discrimination or wrongful dismissal concerns in these cases which should be factored into the reasonable accommodation decisions.I also like to apply the ALARA principle in the sense that if something is there that shouldn't be, why not take measures to control it or eliminate it at its source? Even if it isn't bothering anyone but the sensitive complainant now, it might affect someone else in the future or even cause chemical or allergic sensitization in other occupants as a result of chronic exposure.I let the client make the final informed decision, I only make recommendations.Steve Temes

For the sake of discussion, what level of care should a building manager seek to provide for the occupants. Is he really responsible to make sure that even the most health frail among us are happy? Or is he only responsible to work toward having some intangible percentage of the population being content with the situation? Stojanik

[Guest guest]

I think you've wrapped it up nicely, Tony.

for commercial buildings, I know of no states that allow zero

provision for outdoor air. Minnesota for example, has incorporated

ASHRAE Std 62 by reference into their building code. I'm not sure

which version of Std 62 was last referenced; last I checked it was

still 62-1989. Wisconsin has recently adopted the new International

Building Code, but has reduced the IBC required ventilation rate

back down to 7-1/2 CFM per occupant. it's bounced between 5 and 7-

1/2 since ~1924.

generally, the code in effect at the time that the plans are

reviewed by the " authority having jurisdiction " is the version that

must be followed. the date of design or date of construction can be

somewhat different.

I've never really seen the concept of " ALARA " used for specifying

ventilation in commercial, educational or institutional building

environments.

regards,

Wane

>

> In regards to:

>

> How is it that ASHRAE recommends office spaces have an air

exchange rate

> of 20 cfm per person yet in Washington State, and apparently in

every

> other state, a building owner or manager can have an air exchange

rate

> of ZERO and it is perfectly LEGAL?

>

> 1. Part 1

>

> Most States and Local governments adopt for commercial aspects the

> International Building Code and International Mechanical Code

> requirements; the Southeast US tends to use the Southern Building

Code -

> very similar.

>

> These " Codes " are created to be used as real codes and usually

apply the

> ASHRAE standard to set fresh air CFM. However, there are a things

to

> remember:

>

> 1) The controlling government must adopt them.

> 2) The controlling government must update and properly

incorporate

> them.

> 3) The controlling government must understand them.

> 4) The controlling government must enforce them.

> 5) Many entities modify the code before adoption.

>

> 6) The code that applies is the one at the time the building was

> constructed. A new code could apply in many cases after

substantial

> renovation (ca. 25-30% of cost of building).

>

> The statement in the actual code reference adopted can say that the

> building " can provide X CFM outdoor air " this means it has the

> capability but does not actually do so.

>

>

> 2. Part 2

>

> The Residential Code is a separate piece and usually lags 2-3 years

> behind the Source from the Int Code. It is not as extensively

used and

> for many small towns/municipalities/townships/parishes/counties it

is

> not even adopted. It does not require Mechanical Ventilation where

> certain sufficient natural or openable portals are available (this

> technically allows most houses to not have ventilation of outside

air)

> or

>

> " an approved mechanical ventilation system is provided capable of

> producing 0.35 air change per hour in the room or a whole-house

> mechanical ventilation system is installed capable of supplying

outdoor

> ventilation air of 15 cubic feet per minute (cfm) (7.08 L/s) per

> occupant computed on the basis of two occupants for the first

bedroom

> and one occupant for each additional bedroom. " (emphasis added)

>

> Thus the problem.

>

> 3. Outdoor air intake

>

> For the person a few weeks ago who wanted to know where to place

the

> outdoor air intake:

> " Intake openings. Mechanical and gravity outdoor air intake

openings

> shall be located a minimum of 10 feet (3048 mm) from any hazardous

or

> noxious contaminant, such as vents, chimneys, plumbing vents,

streets,

> alleys, parking lots and loading docks, except as otherwise

specified in

> this code. Where a source of contaminant is located within 10 feet

(3048

> mm) of an intake opening, such opening shall be located a minimum

of 2

> feet (610 mm) below the contaminant source. "

>

> 4. More comments for perspective

>

> Regarding modifications above, many residential HVAC units get put

in

> commercial buildings after the fact (on small additions/upgrades)

and

> these are not geared for fresh air intake.

>

> I know of only one builder in the Indy area that routinely adds

fresh

> air supply to their homes, and another offers it as an

option/upgrade.

>

> Remember, it takes an educated person knowing the occupancy to

properly

> design ventilation - how many engineers or psuedo-engineers are

there?

> Or even people (IEQ specialists) that take the time to learn or

even can

> get the training they need?

>

> If it's broke and nobody notices it or screams loud enough - who

cares?

>

> 5. Wane - any comments?

>

> Tony

>

> ...................................................................

......

> ..

> " Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

> pH2, LLC

> PO Box 34140

> Indianapolis, IN 46234

>

> cell

>

> 90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal

point...any

> consultant can give you the other 10%(SM)

>

>

>

> Re: For the sake of discussion

>

>

> How is it that ASHRAE recommends office spaces have an air

exchange rate

> of 20 cfm per person yet in Washington State, and apparently in

every

> other state, a building owner or manager can have an air exchange

rate

> of ZERO and it is perfectly LEGAL?

>

> This leaves people like Lynn and many thousands or millions like

her

> wondering why they feel sick, not understanding that they are

working

> every day in a mire of CHEMICAL SOUP - all so that the building

owner

> can save some money.

>

> Without any real minimum regulations, " As Low As Reasonably

Achievable "

> too often translates into " Do it as cheap as possible " .

> Hate to sound cynical, but I too work in chemical soup and have

fought

> for a year to get someone to do something about it. No one cares.

> Anyone who gets sick is said to have psychological problems while

> building management refuses to even disclose what the air exchange

rate

> is. All the suggestions in the world cannot get the owner to

address

> the problem NOR my administrator to move the business - due to the

> expense of moving. It's so much easier to say we're not smelling

> chemicals on a daily basis.

>

> Good luck Lynn. Until we have LAWS about what building owners and

> managers do instead of this ALARA (Do it as cheap as possible)

stuff,

> people like you and I will continue to suffer and struggle.

>

> Blessings,

> Starr Connelly

> starr.connelly@v...

> Social Worker 3

> Home and Community Services

> Washington State

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wane and Tony,

Thanks for your responses. A few months ago when I was researching

the air exchange rate regulations in Washington State, I contacted a Washington

OSHA official (WISHA) in Olympia who explained that in this state there was no

official regulation set for ventilation rates unless a particular city or

county might have established their own code. For some reason I believed him and have

operated on that premise ever since.

When you two were so adamant that there MUST

be regulations, I went back to the drawing board and made another list of phone

calls and, yes, found that there is.

In black in white I now have the table in front of me - .

Me thinks I doth appreciate your protest.

Now I shall trudge on to unearth the record

keeping requirements for the air exchange rate and the public’s right to

review those records – AND how to pry those records out of the building

owner’s hands.

The x-ray machine in the chiropractor’s

office directly downstairs is still venting directly into the HVAC system, at

least half of the office workers are still getting headaches and nausea at

least half the time at work, natural gas odor is still detected for brief

periods 1-2 times weekly, the initial CO2 reading (which they FINALLY took) went

up to 1730 before they shut off the meter; visible mold is growing in the space

directly above my desk - yet untested and unresearched as to type and extent. Yet still they won’t discuss (conceal)

the air exchange rate. Pretty

funny, huh?!

Thanks guys.

Starr Connelly

Social Worker 3

Home and Community Services

Washington State

Starr.connelly@...

Re: For the sake of

discussion

>

>

> How is it that ASHRAE recommends office

spaces have an air

exchange rate

> of 20 cfm per person yet in Washington State,

and apparently in

every

> other state, a building owner or manager can

have an air exchange

rate

> of ZERO and it is perfectly LEGAL?

>

> This leaves people like Lynn and many

thousands or millions like

her

> wondering why they feel sick, not

understanding that they are

working

> every day in a mire of CHEMICAL SOUP - all so

that the building

owner

> can save some money.

>

> Without any real minimum regulations,

" As Low As Reasonably

Achievable "

> too often translates into " Do it as

cheap as possible " .

> Hate to sound cynical, but I too work in

chemical soup and have

fought

> for a year to get someone to do something

about it. No one cares.

> Anyone who gets sick is said to have

psychological problems while

> building management refuses to even disclose

what the air exchange

rate

> is. All the suggestions in the world

cannot get the owner to

address

> the problem NOR my administrator to move the

business - due to the

> expense of moving. It's so much easier

to say we're not smelling

> chemicals on a daily basis.

>

> Good luck Lynn. Until we have LAWS

about what building owners and

> managers do instead of this ALARA (Do it as

cheap as possible)

stuff,

> people like you and I will continue to suffer

and struggle.

>

> Blessings,

> Starr Connelly

> starr.connelly@v...

> Social Worker 3

> Home and Community Services

> Washington State

>

>

__________ NOD32 1.1295 (20051120)

Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.

http://www.eset.com

[Guest guest]

Sorry for the delay in response - out of town for the holidays and will be catching up most of this week.

There are generally exhaust bldg code requirements as well that would apply.

Secondarily, if it is an accredited facility (unlikely in this case) there are additional requirements by type of facilty for air supply/exhaust via the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations (JCAHO - "Jayco").

The old DHHS/CDC Medical facility guidelines might also be used as a standard of care where state or local codes allow application of specific "standards" to be used "where applicable".

And finally, one of the NFPA codes has exhaust requirements - sorry my set is in storage at the moment (and there is a special medical facility code that likely has it as well).

Tony

ps Could you send me the codes as cited and the dates. I'm trying to collect some for reference and perhaps to team up with someone to do an article.

........................................................................... "Tony" Havics, CHMM, CIH, PEpH2, LLCPO Box 34140Indianapolis, IN 46234 cell90% of Risk Management is knowing where to place the decimal point...any consultant can give you the other 10%â„ This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or distributed without this statement.

Re: For the sake of discussion> > > How is it that ASHRAE recommends office spaces have an air exchange rate> of 20 cfm per person yet in Washington State, and apparently in every> other state, a building owner or manager can have an air exchange rate> of ZERO and it is perfectly LEGAL? > > This leaves people like Lynn and many thousands or millions like her> wondering why they feel sick, not understanding that they are working> every day in a mire of CHEMICAL SOUP - all so that the building owner> can save some money. > > Without any real minimum regulations, "As Low As Reasonably Achievable"> too often translates into "Do it as cheap as possible".> Hate to sound cynical, but I too work in chemical soup and have fought> for a year to get someone to do something about it. No one cares.> Anyone who gets sick is said to have psychological problems while> building management refuses to even disclose what the air exchange rate> is. All the suggestions in the world cannot get the owner to address> the problem NOR my administrator to move the business - due to the> expense of moving. It's so much easier to say we're not smelling> chemicals on a daily basis.> > Good luck Lynn. Until we have LAWS about what building owners and> managers do instead of this ALARA (Do it as cheap as possible) stuff,> people like you and I will continue to suffer and struggle.> > Blessings,> Starr Connelly> starr.connelly@v...> Social Worker 3> Home and Community Services> Washington State> >__________ NOD32 1.1295 (20051120) Information __________This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.http://www.eset.com