Re: looks like another overload

July 29, 2003

Jim wrote:

>Does this sound like AS, or does it

>sound like HFA?

It sounds like autism.

There is not definition of AS that works for

everybody, unless you accept the " HFA without

significant language-delay " definition. And if

you do, you're stuck with the fact that there

is incredible diversity among those who do and

don't fit that definition of AS. Some people

who had " no significant language delay " as

children, as adults " look HFA. " While some

who *did* have " significant langguage-delay "

as children. as adults " look AS. "

It all gets very subjective. Not to mention

the fact that a person may be " HFA " one day

and " AS " the next, or " HFA " according to one

" expert " and " AS " according to another. The

way we function may change markedly over

time, may seesaw up and down, and is likely

to be affected as much by our surroundings

as by what's inside.

Jane

July 29, 2003

Oh, dude! Been there done that! Sounds like AS to me, except I

don’t stim in public, so could be HFA.

My psychMD says that the difference in AS and HFA is that HFA can

’t speak (?!?) and Aspies choose not to speak. Waddya think? Do I

need a new psychMD?

Louis

From: starfleet7777

This past weekend, a chain of events started Saturday 7/26/2003

which

ended in a cascade and overload last night in a home center

store. I

think it started when I was approved for Social Security

Disability.

I received my first benefits on Saturday. I was approved for SSDI

in

3 to 4 months. I think the approval went rapidly because of the

following several factors: (1) I kept my psychologist up-to-date

regarding my current situation since he diagnosed me with

Asperger's

on 9/30/2002. Since 9/30/2003, I have experienced several

overloads.

(2) During the past 30 years, I have had 4 voc rehab cases opened

for

me. (3) My psychologist looked at my employment history and

noticed

Asperger's features as the cause of many negative citations given

by

my employers. (4) I used an old-fashioned typewriter to complete

the

10 to 20 page set of forms required by the Social Security

Administration. Typing allowed me to include almost 3 times as

much

information on the forms, as compared with handwriting. These

forms

requested information detailing my functioning on a day-to-day

basis.

In the forms I mentioned one of my favourite stims, a Casio 2.5 "

pocket TV. Often,I carry it around the house much like " Rainman "

carried his Sony Watchman. It usually calms me down within 15

minutes.

The approval for my SSDI has marked a " landmark " objective change

in

my employment situation. I have had several technical jobs in

computer programming. 32 years ago, I became a cook at Mc

's.

Several changes in rest and meal schedule occurred during Sunday

7/27/2003 and Monday 7/28/2003. Just before I overload'ed last

night

(7/28/2003) in a home center, I experienced several symptoms of

an

impending overload: (1) It became more difficult to hear my wife

amist the fan noise in the store. (2) I stimmed a whole lot more

after " freaking out " with the sounds of a saw and a loud squeal

from

the store's public address system. I settled somewhat after I put

earplugs in my ears. (3) I have been in sort of a daze for the

past

day. I am ready to return to bed (among my fuzzy inside-out

sweatshirts) as soon as I finish this post. It is now 8pm, 2 to 3

hours before my usual bedtime. Does this sound like AS, or does

it

sound like HFA?

Thanks,

Jim

July 29, 2003

> My psychMD says that the difference in AS and HFA is that HFA can

> t speak (?!?) and Aspies choose not to speak. Waddya think? Do I

> need a new psychMD?

I've heard of a lot of bizarre definitions of the difference (of which I

think there isn't one -- just myriad variations on autism, some of which

invariably get split along some imaginary line and called an AS/HFA

divide) but I've never heard that one before.

Although I just read part of Edgar Schneider's latest book, which claims

that people with AS talk fluently and people with HFA don't but may

write fluently. (Given the amount of references to Jasmine Lee O'Neill

in his book, he may well have picked that up from her -- she has some

odd ideas of the difference too, in that she believes people with AS are

creative and other autistic people aren't or something.)

The commonly accepted difference is one of early language, cognitive,

and self-help delays, as well as the DSM criteria. Some people also put

it along the lines of (outwardly visible, of course) introversion versus

extraversion. While I don't agree with this differentiation either (or

any other), I would be really cautious about people claiming things like

your doctor said.

I have *never* heard that one before. I have heard people (who didn't

realize that the term " selective mutism " was simply a newer and more

accurate term for what used to erroneously be called " elective mutism "

-- all of which is an anxiety disorder making people too terrified to be

able to talk) saying that selectively mute people could not help talking

but that electively mute people chose not to talk. But that was based

on a misunderstanding. I have also heard -- also based on a

misunderstanding -- the term " selective mutism " used to refer to

autistic people's vocal-speech shutdown (which is often different from

the commonly-recognized condition of selective mutism, which is a form

of social anxiety). But I have never heard AS/HFA differentiated that

way.

And I've read a fair amount, and seen a lot of (IMO, faulty)

differentiations. Just not that one.

--

" It is not uncommon for engineers to accept the reality of phenomena

that are not yet understood, as it is very common for physicists to

disbelieve the reality of phenomena that seem to contradict contemporary

beliefs of physics. " -H. Bauer

July 29, 2003

Louise Gainor wrote:

> Oh, dude! Been there done that! Sounds like AS to me, except I don’t

> stim in public, so could be HFA.

>

> My psychMD says that the difference in AS and HFA is that HFA can ’t

> speak (?!?) and Aspies choose not to speak. Waddya think? Do I need a

> new psychMD?

Well, that is not accurate at all... it is for you to decide if you need

a new doctor.

I spent a lot of time perseverating on the differences between AS and

autism, and I also got to know a lot of people on the spectrum. The

articles and research papers on the subject, while admitting that it is

unresolved and hard to determine, almost make it seem easier than it is.

In the real world, the traits don't cluster as nicely as the researchers

seem to indicate. There are traits that indicate AS more than HFA, and

HFA more than AS, and theoretically, someone with AS will have

significantly more of the AS indicators, and someone with HFA would have

more of the HFA indicators.

I have found that it is far from being that simple. I know a lot of

people that are very obviously aspie in some ways, but they have notable

expressions of things that are supposed to be very autistic traits. The

bottom line seems to be that to determine which diagnostic category fits

the best (and these are just diagnostic categories, not distinct

disorders) requires knowledge of the early history of the person.

For the most part, I present now as someone with AS. I am very verbal

and I can be quite verbose on topics of interest. I do not have

synesthetic tendencies. I am generally fairly well connected to the real

world when I have to be. On the other hand, I am very stimmy in general;

I flap, I rock, I scrunch my fingers together and cram them into my eye

sockets, I smell anything I can, I feel anything I can with my fingers,

and I make lots of verbal stims, and I do these things fairly

frequently, in public or not. I have never been able to fully suppress

them; now I do not try. I do echolalia and echopraxia pretty frequently.

I have hearing that is as oversensitive as an autistic child's, maybe

more so, as I learned at an autism society picnic with an annoying

choo-choo train whistle that sounded close by every few minutes (and

which caused more of a covering-ears reaction in me than in any of the

nonverbal kidlets). I overload much easier and much more profoundly than

any of the members of the local autistic adult group with whom I have

" hung out. " I am more rigid in my thinking than most aspies, I am told.

I do not have any close friends, nor any friends at all that I hang out

with for its own sake, and I do not desire any, nor do I understand why

someone would want one.

I am more idiosyncratic in things like clothing choice and my choice of

tableware I will use (yes, really-- when I have cereal, I have to hunt

through the tableware drawer to find a suitable spoon... there are many

spoons that are perfectly usable, but I won't use them... I also won't

use forks with any number of tines that is not four, which means that I

end up using a plastic fork sometimes when I have only clean three-tined

forks left). I have a big lack of empathy... I cannot understand people

liking things I do not like, nor can I understand the point of the

person that is less like me in any given example. Sometimes, I can

cognitively make up for this, but not always, and never while I am

overloaded or otherwise not at top form.

None of this, though, really points one way or another definitively. All

of this, in conjunction with my flat affect (monotonic voice, lack of

varied facial expressions, etc) and in-depth knowledge of my family

history, made the case to the Pitt people that I was HFA more than AS.

My early history looked very autistic, and I probably would have been

diagnosed as such at the age of two if my mother had taken me in for

evaluation.

So, to answer the question originally asked... looks like something on

the spectrum, but there is not enough data to say whether it would be

more AS or HFA. And my email client has now lost the email to which I am

replying, and all the others in the thread, so I can't even go back and

reread it. Hmph!

July 29, 2003

Let me clarify a few things in response to everyone's questions.

I did have a significant language delay as a preschooler. My mother

said I did not speak until I was 4 to 5 years old. I am 47 years old

and I think I display more spectum features now than I have ever did

since being a preschooler. During the day, I have difficulty holding

urine. I could hold it but holding it is quite distracting and leads

to stress. My mother said when I was 5 years old I spread my feces on

my bedroom wall. I don't remember the feces incident but I can

remember other aspects of being a 5 year old. I think I talk fluently

when I plan ahead or talk about my obsession. I may talk slower if

tired or in an interactive situation. I am more interverted as

confirmed by the Myers-Briggs test (which showed me to be ISTJ). At

least recently, I feel more comfortable writing as opposed to

speaking. As a preschooler, I was quite sensitive to sound. At 3

years of age, my mother had the barbar use scissors for the entire

haircut. Since that time, I have not been terribly sensitive to

sound. However, on occasion, I am more sensitive to sound, especially

when I am near an overload. I may have " gone downhill " in the past

several years, due to the caretaking I did for my wife. During that

period, her health had be failing (almost to death). During the past

several months since bariatric surgery (she had some of her stomach

bypassed) she had gotten a lot better.

Thanks, Jim

July 29, 2003

Hi,

I think when the next DSM comes out there is going to be much more

clarity (can't get any more vague)on what is autism and what is AS.

Dr. Ozonoff who doesn't believe that there should be a separation

between AS and HFA at all, is on an advisory committee for the DSM

rewrite now. She works extensively with AS HFA kids and says that

the reasoning behind the split is very bad and cannot be supported.

She has done a study or two, to figure out the real difference and

found none. There is no reason to say that kids who talk early are

concretely different from those who don't except sometimes the kids

who talk late have lower IQ (If I remember right that is the only

correlation). AS and HFA have the very same issues.

I expect to see AS dissapear and perhaps there will be another label

within the DSM to indicate more ability to function in the larger

world. HFA is not even a label that is in the DSM now. There is

just Autism and then there is AS (and PDD-NOS....).

Camille

July 29, 2003

My two cents' worth:

1) There is no such thing as " HFA " . This is an antiquated view based on

ignorance of the autistic *spectrum* and a common view that autistics were

" stupid " , based on a single-dimensional (NT) view of intelligence, ignoring

the other 7~23 dimensions ( Green et al). The DSM IV accordingly

does not show such a label.

2) My opinion: although there are a lot of commonalities, there are some

marked differences, one of them is that AS tend to desire more social

contact (while still not intuitively understanding the rules of engagement).

3) My opinion: AS is less likely to present Savant Syndrome (SS), due to the

nature of the development of SS.

4) We do *not* lack empathy or emotion. I have seen too much of it in the

last two weeks in these discussions to agree with that label.

5) AS & (HF)A present distinct IAD (?) urine profiles. ADHD & AS present

very similarly(!).

In my view, the movie " Rain Man " , although well researched and presented

(based largely on Hoffman's understanding of Kim Peek), failed in two

aspects;

a) It did not focus enough on the late father and the brother (),

who, in my humble opinion, were also on the spectrum.

The character portrayed by Hoffman was a composite; SS only

focuses on one exceptional skill, with possibly a few, less significant

ones.

NTs like this movie because they think it gives them a handle on autism.

Another one, which arguably shows the difference between AS and (HF)A is

" Little Man Tate " .

Colin.

Re: looks like another overload

> Hi,

>

> I think when the next DSM comes out there is going to be much more

> clarity (can't get any more vague)on what is autism and what is AS.

> Dr. Ozonoff who doesn't believe that there should be a separation

> between AS and HFA at all, is on an advisory committee for the DSM

> rewrite now. She works extensively with AS HFA kids and says that

> the reasoning behind the split is very bad and cannot be supported.

> She has done a study or two, to figure out the real difference and

> found none. There is no reason to say that kids who talk early are

> concretely different from those who don't except sometimes the kids

> who talk late have lower IQ (If I remember right that is the only

> correlation). AS and HFA have the very same issues.

>

> I expect to see AS dissapear and perhaps there will be another label

> within the DSM to indicate more ability to function in the larger

> world. HFA is not even a label that is in the DSM now. There is

> just Autism and then there is AS (and PDD-NOS....).

>

> Camille

>

July 29, 2003

Camille wrote:

> Hi,

>

> I think when the next DSM comes out there is going to be much more

> clarity (can't get any more vague)on what is autism and what is AS.

> Dr. Ozonoff who doesn't believe that there should be a separation

> between AS and HFA at all, is on an advisory committee for the DSM

> rewrite now. She works extensively with AS HFA kids and says that

> the reasoning behind the split is very bad and cannot be supported.

The people I spoke to (the ones that evaluated me) at Pitt University's

CeFAR (Center For Autism Research) hold the same opinion, and they also

work extensively with AS and verbal HFA people, adults and kids.

In the Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, vol. 33, no. 1,

February 2003, there was a paper entitled " Outcome in High-Functioning

Adults with Autism With and Without Early Language Delays: Implications

for the Differentiation Between Autism and Asperger Syndrome. " The

findings discussed were that there is no discernible difference in the

two conditions in any meaningful way. I have the .pdf of that paper if

anyone wants it.

> She has done a study or two, to figure out the real difference and

> found none. There is no reason to say that kids who talk early are

> concretely different from those who don't except sometimes the kids

> who talk late have lower IQ (If I remember right that is the only

> correlation). AS and HFA have the very same issues.

Yes. To some people, the person with AS looks a lot different than the

stereotypical autistic, but that presumes that all autistics and aspies

are like the prototypical examples they use to compare the two

conditions. The conditions do grade together, to the point that it is

impossible (and pointless) to try to figure out the difference.

Further, it is probably not accurate to assume that anyone that is on

the spectrum, learned to talk on time, and who has good language skills

has AS... there are probably several other PDD subtypes that have not

been named as yet that would also fit in there.

> I expect to see AS dissapear and perhaps there will be another label

> within the DSM to indicate more ability to function in the larger

> world.

I don't know about that. A lot of people argue for the AS label not

because it is epidemiologically any different from autism, but because

it is less stimatic than the autism label. A lot of parents and

professionals want to see the two continue to be defined as separate,

and a surprising number of professionals still think that AS and autism

are similar but unrelated conditions.

> HFA is not even a label that is in the DSM now. There is

> just Autism and then there is AS (and PDD-NOS....).

That is correct.

July 29, 2003

In my pre-dx days I could not understand why none of these profile tests fit

me; now I understand they are for NTs. The tests are short of a few

dimensions.

Colin (on another dimension).

Re: looks like another overload

> Let me clarify a few things in response to everyone's questions.

> I did have a significant language delay as a preschooler. My mother

> said I did not speak until I was 4 to 5 years old. I am 47 years old

> and I think I display more spectum features now than I have ever did

> since being a preschooler. During the day, I have difficulty holding

> urine. I could hold it but holding it is quite distracting and leads

> to stress. My mother said when I was 5 years old I spread my feces on

> my bedroom wall. I don't remember the feces incident but I can

> remember other aspects of being a 5 year old. I think I talk fluently

> when I plan ahead or talk about my obsession. I may talk slower if

> tired or in an interactive situation. I am more interverted as

> confirmed by the Myers-Briggs test (which showed me to be ISTJ). At

> least recently, I feel more comfortable writing as opposed to

> speaking. As a preschooler, I was quite sensitive to sound. At 3

> years of age, my mother had the barbar use scissors for the entire

> haircut. Since that time, I have not been terribly sensitive to

> sound. However, on occasion, I am more sensitive to sound, especially

> when I am near an overload. I may have " gone downhill " in the past

> several years, due to the caretaking I did for my wife. During that

> period, her health had be failing (almost to death). During the past

> several months since bariatric surgery (she had some of her stomach

> bypassed) she had gotten a lot better.

>

> Thanks, Jim

>

July 29, 2003

----- Original Message ----- >

> In the Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, vol. 33, no. 1,

> February 2003, ... I have the .pdf of that paper if

> anyone wants it.

>

#Colin: yes, please.#

>

July 29, 2003

did anyone read that book - I think it is called Aspergers syndrome and

nonverbal learning disabilities... I think it came out last year,

I have HFA, (selfdxd) and my son is dxd with pddnos, but my partner (not

J's dad) is just diagnosed with AS. (we knew for a long time but

finally have the paper...)

anyway that book had a thing where it said AS is more of a nonverbal

learning disability, and it had this one distinction that totaly rang

true in my family...

it said that people with Aspergers use language to communicate, where as

peopel with autism use language to get their needs met.... I didn't want

to admit to that at first, but really I have come to realize, it is a

basic distinction of why and how my son and I talk to people - we often

end up being labeled selfish, or bitchy, or mean, or demanding... but

really it is because we first and foremost use language to get what we

need.... we forget the manners and miss body language... Lianne

Holliday Willey talks about that in her first couple of books, how

people mistake her intention so often, and how heartbreaking it is to be

so often misunderstood. She has AS and I don't - yet I so related to that.

as fas as the language, lack of language issue - I would have been

diagnosed right along side my son, except that I was an early talker...

but I don't have the OCD/non-functional routines (counting everything

all day in the background for example) and other AS aspects as does my

mate.... so I don't fit that category...

I missed the beginning of this thread, but for us, we all have the

overloads at different times... the times it happens are usually at

transition times and when one of us (at least) is overstimulated.... the

ensuing pwer struggle is all three of us clinging to shreds of control

ofver an often uncontrollable unpredictable world... for us we really

think it is usually the sensory being overloaded, and this is the same

for all three of us....

I mean wouldn't it be nice if they just stuck to the word spectrum and

spend all this other energy helping us figure out for ourselves what is

the best way to function in the world in the face of whatever

impairments/special gifts each individal has... wouldn't that make

more sense that just trying to make more boxes to fit us in.... I mean

really, don't they get it, that we didn't fit in thier boxes to begin

with... ?

personally I vote they put the designation of " differently brained " in

the DSM and have done with it. in the meantime I just try to break down

the aspects of my issues, into sensory integration, atypical use of

language, social skills, and anxiety disorder, etc... works better for

me than searching for the right label....

cheers

dani