Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 On Fri, 2003-07-18 at 13:57, jypsy [ janet norman-bain ] wrote: > The crux of the matter. > So what personalities do people with SPD have? To > be exact, no two schizoids are completely alike, > but one trait they all share is reclusiveness. Have you ever read the book _Party of One: The Loners' Manifesto_ by Anneli Rufus? It's interesting. -- " Organising a group of autistics is rather like herding cats. " -FAQ, alt.support.autism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 *** I don't agree with Lorna Wing's statement that Asperger's syndrome should be included in Schizoid Personality Disorder. *** Neither do I Colin!! Only earlier today I remarked that I am far more cut off from human contact than most people here. As an Aspie I am probably high function, it's the Schizoid PD that's the killer... I am constantly aware of the difference between the two within myself... AS = Hardware SPD = Software (aka LEARNED) Yet Jypsey is right...these conditions aren't specific viruses that can be isolated definitively, they are a spectrum of humanity. I was thinking today that the DSM might make more sense if we looked upon it as we do a color chart for paint...a communication tool. AS and SPD can be so similar in appearance that you would have to go back to the cause to distinguish them from the outside. For instance it is very unlikely that a child raised in a loving, nurturing family with no other trauma would develop SPD, but he could certainly have AS. I was raised with saturation childhood abuse, however, most people, even from WORSE situations recover far more social and interactive functionality than I did, the AS is the reason I couldn't. Gaye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Hi, I'm so sorry about your childhood. I was abused (battered really badly once and neglected -somewhat), but certainly not to that extent. I don't think that my sympathy helps really, but still I wanted to stay that it stinks that you were abused. Camille > *** > I don't agree with Lorna Wing's statement that Asperger's syndrome should be > included in Schizoid Personality Disorder. > *** > > Neither do I Colin!! > > Only earlier today I remarked that I am far more cut off from human contact > than most people here. As an Aspie I am probably high function, it's the > Schizoid PD that's the killer... > > I am constantly aware of the difference between the two within myself... > > AS = Hardware > SPD = Software (aka LEARNED) > > Yet Jypsey is right...these conditions aren't specific viruses that can be > isolated definitively, they are a spectrum of humanity. > > I was thinking today that the DSM might make more sense if we looked upon it > as we do a color chart for paint...a communication tool. > > AS and SPD can be so similar in appearance that you would have to go back to > the cause to distinguish them from the outside. For instance it is very > unlikely that a child raised in a loving, nurturing family with no other > trauma would develop SPD, but he could certainly have AS. > > I was raised with saturation childhood abuse, however, most people, even > from WORSE situations recover far more social and interactive functionality > than I did, the AS is the reason I couldn't. > > Gaye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 As long as we are talking about SPD... Some time ago on this list, there was talk of a test for personality disorders. I retook it, and my results are: Paranoid PD, Schizoid PD, Schizotypal PD, Antisocial PD, Narcissistic PD, Avoidant PD, Obsessive-compulsive PD: High Antisocial, Borderline: Moderate Histrionic, Dependent: Low The URL is: http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personality_disorder_test.mv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 wrote: > > > > Some time ago on this list, there was talk of a test for > > personality disorders. I retook it, and my results are: > > > Paranoid PD, Schizoid PD, Schizotypal PD, Antisocial PD, > > Narcissistic PD, Avoidant PD, Obsessive-compulsive PD: High > > Antisocial, Borderline: Moderate Histrionic, Dependent: Low > > You wrote antisocial twice, in different score ranges. Ack... so I did. The " high " one was incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 > Some time ago on this list, there was talk of a test for personality > disorders. I retook it, and my results are: > Paranoid PD, Schizoid PD, Schizotypal PD, Antisocial PD, Narcissistic > PD, Avoidant PD, Obsessive-compulsive PD: High > Antisocial, Borderline: Moderate > Histrionic, Dependent: Low You wrote antisocial twice, in different score ranges. As for me: Schizoid, Schizotypal: Very High Obsessive-Compulsive: High Borderline, Narcissistic, Avoidant: Moderate Paranoid, Antisocial, Histrionic, Dependent: Low -- " Killing people with ignoring their humanness is a lowly righteous act. " - Eastham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Could it be??? am I hearing emotion expressed from a spectrum person? Empathy, too?? Excuse the sarcasm, but it merely stresses a point I made before about the fact that we *do* have both emotions and empathy, although not the way NTs want to see them. Like I said before, maybe one of us logically beautiful people should rewrite the DSM - it would be easier to read 7 apply and would probably be shorter. Colin. Re: Schizoid.... > Hi, > > I'm so sorry about your childhood. I was abused (battered really > badly once and neglected -somewhat), but certainly not to that > extent. I don't think that my sympathy helps really, but still I > wanted to stay that it stinks that you were abused. > > Camille > > > > > *** > > I don't agree with Lorna Wing's statement that Asperger's syndrome > should be > > included in Schizoid Personality Disorder. > > *** > > > > Neither do I Colin!! > > > > Only earlier today I remarked that I am far more cut off from human > contact > > than most people here. As an Aspie I am probably high function, > it's the > > Schizoid PD that's the killer... > > > > I am constantly aware of the difference between the two within > myself... > > > > AS = Hardware > > SPD = Software (aka LEARNED) > > > > Yet Jypsey is right...these conditions aren't specific viruses that > can be > > isolated definitively, they are a spectrum of humanity. > > > > I was thinking today that the DSM might make more sense if we > looked upon it > > as we do a color chart for paint...a communication tool. > > > > AS and SPD can be so similar in appearance that you would have to > go back to > > the cause to distinguish them from the outside. For instance it is > very > > unlikely that a child raised in a loving, nurturing family with no > other > > trauma would develop SPD, but he could certainly have AS. > > > > I was raised with saturation childhood abuse, however, most people, > even > > from WORSE situations recover far more social and interactive > functionality > > than I did, the AS is the reason I couldn't. > > > > Gaye > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Mine: Disorder | Rating Paranoid: High Schizoid: High Schizotypal: High Antisocial: Moderate Borderline: Low Histrionic: High Narcissistic: High Avoidant: Moderate Dependent: Moderate Obsessive-Compulsive: High This does not sound like me! I know that who I am is a combination of neuro-biological and environmental factors (some very negative), but some of those labels I do not feel apply. Re: Schizoid.... > wrote: > > > > > > > > Some time ago on this list, there was talk of a test for > > > personality disorders. I retook it, and my results are: > > > > > Paranoid PD, Schizoid PD, Schizotypal PD, Antisocial PD, > > > Narcissistic PD, Avoidant PD, Obsessive-compulsive PD: High > > > Antisocial, Borderline: Moderate Histrionic, Dependent: Low > > > > You wrote antisocial twice, in different score ranges. > > Ack... so I did. The " high " one was incorrect. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Gaye, I hope I didn't offend you with my earlier remarks about empathy. That was not my intention. Maybe I can't feel & share your pain, but I do understand. My father (SPD Supremo, Master Manipulator of " lesser mortals - like me) was a bully in all respects of the word. I was the (obvious) weirdo/eccentric freak in the family (even though my mother, three brothers & most of their offspring appear to be on the spectrum). I was also the " runt of the litter " with medical problems to boot, and a total embarrassment to my father. He also sees money as more important than people. My second brother has been a diligent student. I am sorry, I am ranting again. Where was I? Oh, I agree with you. I used to be trusting to the point of gullibility, thinking that most human beings operated under some code or set of rules. When I wised up, I became very distrusting. I have experienced a hard time " bouncing back " because of my aspie nature. I hope I explained myself this time. This has been very emotional for me. Colin (without NT emotions or empathy). RE: Schizoid.... > *** > I don't agree with Lorna Wing's statement that Asperger's syndrome should be > included in Schizoid Personality Disorder. > *** > > Neither do I Colin!! > > Only earlier today I remarked that I am far more cut off from human contact > than most people here. As an Aspie I am probably high function, it's the > Schizoid PD that's the killer... > > I am constantly aware of the difference between the two within myself... > > AS = Hardware > SPD = Software (aka LEARNED) > > Yet Jypsey is right...these conditions aren't specific viruses that can be > isolated definitively, they are a spectrum of humanity. > > I was thinking today that the DSM might make more sense if we looked upon it > as we do a color chart for paint...a communication tool. > > AS and SPD can be so similar in appearance that you would have to go back to > the cause to distinguish them from the outside. For instance it is very > unlikely that a child raised in a loving, nurturing family with no other > trauma would develop SPD, but he could certainly have AS. > > I was raised with saturation childhood abuse, however, most people, even > from WORSE situations recover far more social and interactive functionality > than I did, the AS is the reason I couldn't. > > Gaye > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 Hi, NTs can only guess at what autistics feel. They guess wrong, often. I think that professionals working with AS (kids of course for the main part) say that people with AS are totally aware of their own emotions. I mean if you listen to some of the young people especially on some lists, they really want to talk about how they feel; afraid, lonely, neglected, unapreciated, gleeful. Maybe the adults do to, but I think adults post things that are more cerebral. At any rate. For me, it is definately a cerebral process, but I can empathize because I know that that person probably felt like I felt. If I felt really scared and my heart pounded and I couldn't figure out what to do about various situations I faced as a kid, I can reasonably assume that other Aspies also felt that way. Then I think, That stinks!! Wording sympathetic responses is hard. I don't know if I am sounding too sappy or if I am being annoying, etc. I have a kind of moral imperative that I try to follow that says, " you should try to help lighten other people's loads if you can " . BUT, I also laugh at people's hardships if I judge that they " deserved " them. I think that's common in AS, but I don't know. I can be really mean sometimes inside. Camille Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 .... which is why I can write a great business letter, report etc. Add some emotions and I'm sunk. Re: Schizoid.... > > > > NTs can only guess at what autistics feel. They guess wrong, often. > > Agreed. > > > At any rate. For me, it is definately a cerebral process, but I can > > empathize because I know that that person probably felt like I felt. > > > If I felt really scared and my heart pounded and I couldn't figure > > out what to do about various situations I faced as a kid, I can > > reasonably assume that other Aspies also felt that way. Then I > > think, That stinks!! > > For me, I actually have a fairly high rate of automatic non-cerebralized > ability to interpret autistic emotional body language. I don't have the > same thing with NTs. > > > Wording sympathetic responses is hard. I don't know if I am sounding > > too sappy or if I am being annoying, etc. > > I don't know how to respond that way either. > > > BUT, I also laugh at people's hardships if I judge that > > they " deserved " them. I think that's common in AS, but I don't > > know. I can be really mean sometimes inside. > > I think that's actually common in general. I've seen a lot of NTs do it > too. > > > > -- > One meets his destiny often on the road he takes to avoid it > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 Hi, In the past maybe 10 years I think that I can just get the " vibe " of who someone is and how sincere they are etc, I think it is subconscious reading of body language. I am comfortable with the few autistic people I have been around. I don't know if I can read their body language, I haven't really thought about it. I posted that I think that my friend Jimmy (low functioning Fragile X and autism) spotted me as a kindred spirit immediately. And I know that his odd movements and noises; rocking, mouthing his finger tips...never bugged me. Camille > For me, I actually have a fairly high rate of automatic non- cerebralized > ability to interpret autistic emotional body language. I don't have the > same thing with NTs. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 > NTs can only guess at what autistics feel. They guess wrong, often. Agreed. > At any rate. For me, it is definately a cerebral process, but I can > empathize because I know that that person probably felt like I felt. > If I felt really scared and my heart pounded and I couldn't figure > out what to do about various situations I faced as a kid, I can > reasonably assume that other Aspies also felt that way. Then I > think, That stinks!! For me, I actually have a fairly high rate of automatic non-cerebralized ability to interpret autistic emotional body language. I don't have the same thing with NTs. > Wording sympathetic responses is hard. I don't know if I am sounding > too sappy or if I am being annoying, etc. I don't know how to respond that way either. > BUT, I also laugh at people's hardships if I judge that > they " deserved " them. I think that's common in AS, but I don't > know. I can be really mean sometimes inside. I think that's actually common in general. I've seen a lot of NTs do it too. -- One meets his destiny often on the road he takes to avoid it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 Hi Camille, *** NTs can only guess at what autistics feel. They guess wrong, often. *** Sometime last night, looking up some peripheral stuff with a search engine, I caught a doozy...a one paragraph definition of aspergers " disease " here: http://www.netalive.org/topics/12428?show=all " Asperger's Disease The plague of those who 'cannot feel', sufferers of this disease simply can not empathises and it is said many criminals suffer from this disorder. It is named after the man Hans Asperger who studied the disease in NAZI youth during the NAZI youth movement. " Yes, I am speechless too... *** I have a kind of moral imperative that I try to follow that says, " you should try to help lighten other people's loads if you can " . *** I suffer from that...but I think it's ok to? ;o) Gaye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 Oh no Colin, Of course you didn't offend me...I actually felt we were saying the same thing from both sides! Let me stress that I agree with you completely. It seems to me that you are sure SPD and AS are seperate because you are sure you do not has SPD. I am sure they are seperate because am sure that I DO have both quite seperately. I am sure, in my heart of hearts, that if I'd had at least one nurturing parent, or access to a little common or garden humanity and kindness as a child, even just the experience of another human being it wasn't dangerous to trust young enough, I would be nowhere near as withdrawn as I am, and yet just as Aspie. To me that is as certain a proof that SPD is a seperate disorder as not having it! The DSM offends me a lot, apparently I have AT LEAST as double dose of " no empathy " from the SPD and the AS, wish somebody had told me that sooner then I might not have got myself into so much hot water all my life trying to help out others who were in a worse case than myself! *chuckles* Of course there is no way of knowing whether the motivation is true empathy or projective identification, which can be the fast road to gullability... ....and I can definately relate to the need to recalibrate one's gullability...I just used to assume that people were either exactly like me, or (in rarer cases) covertly monsterous like my parents...I have now learned that it is safer to assume " monsterous " , whether that is accurate or not...but heck, who needs an accurate assessment of people outside to hide in a hole in the ground? ;o) Gaye Re: Schizoid.... Gaye, I hope I didn't offend you with my earlier remarks about empathy. That was not my intention. Maybe I can't feel & share your pain, but I do understand. My father (SPD Supremo, Master Manipulator of " lesser mortals - like me) was a bully in all respects of the word. I was the (obvious) weirdo/eccentric freak in the family (even though my mother, three brothers & most of their offspring appear to be on the spectrum). I was also the " runt of the litter " with medical problems to boot, and a total embarrassment to my father. He also sees money as more important than people. My second brother has been a diligent student. I am sorry, I am ranting again. Where was I? Oh, I agree with you. I used to be trusting to the point of gullibility, thinking that most human beings operated under some code or set of rules. When I wised up, I became very distrusting. I have experienced a hard time " bouncing back " because of my aspie nature. I hope I explained myself this time. This has been very emotional for me. Colin (without NT emotions or empathy). RE: Schizoid.... > *** > I don't agree with Lorna Wing's statement that Asperger's syndrome should be > included in Schizoid Personality Disorder. > *** > > Neither do I Colin!! > > Only earlier today I remarked that I am far more cut off from human contact > than most people here. As an Aspie I am probably high function, it's the > Schizoid PD that's the killer... > > I am constantly aware of the difference between the two within myself... > > AS = Hardware > SPD = Software (aka LEARNED) > > Yet Jypsey is right...these conditions aren't specific viruses that can be > isolated definitively, they are a spectrum of humanity. > > I was thinking today that the DSM might make more sense if we looked upon it > as we do a color chart for paint...a communication tool. > > AS and SPD can be so similar in appearance that you would have to go back to > the cause to distinguish them from the outside. For instance it is very > unlikely that a child raised in a loving, nurturing family with no other > trauma would develop SPD, but he could certainly have AS. > > I was raised with saturation childhood abuse, however, most people, even > from WORSE situations recover far more social and interactive functionality > than I did, the AS is the reason I couldn't. > > Gaye > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 Well, I took the test, and seem to have all things in moderation...EXCEPT Anti-social and histrionic, which are low... Methinks this test lacks a certain je ne sais quoi in terms of accuracy? Gaye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 > As long as we are talking about SPD... Jypsy's post yesterday about SPD really worried me, and I spent a LOT of time considering it's possibility as a Dx for me. I read (and printed out) the ICD 10 description, and compared it to the DSM IV for AS. While I was going to college, in 1975, I ran across some info that made me think I was schizoid. I wrote a poem about it, a long, weird one, that is included in my web page. www.mogulmarketing.com/clay/chipsy/htm I took the test this morning, and here are the results: Disorder / Rating Paranoid: High Schizoid: High Schizotypal: High Antisocial: Moderate Borderline: Low Histrionic: Low Narcissistic: Moderate Avoidant: Very high Dependent: Moderate Obsessive-Compulsive: High So now, I don't know what to think. I fit a lot of the descriptions for schizoid personality, but I think the descriptions for AS fit even better. Could I be both? Clay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 Small mistake in that URL for my webpage. It should have been: www.mogulmarketing.com/clay/chipsy.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 > Well, I took the test, and seem to have all things in moderation...EXCEPT > Anti-social and histrionic, which are low... > Methinks this test lacks a certain je ne sais quoi in terms of accuracy? Well for one thing, it counts being *called* manipulative or cruel as *being* manipulative or cruel. When in fact they are two separate things. -- " Organising a group of autistics is rather like herding cats. " -FAQ, alt.support.autism Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 *** Well for one thing, it counts being *called* manipulative or cruel as *being* manipulative or cruel. When in fact they are two separate things. *** Further to that and at a slight tangent ...look at questions like this: " Do others see you as being cold and distant? " As a very true Schizoid, people do not see me to hold an opinion, and even if they did, I don't know them well enough to know what their opinion is...so how does a " yes/no " answer show anything? My feeling is that it is a very crude " teen magazine " level test that means little or nothing... Gaye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 Clay wrote: > So now, I don't know what to think. I fit a lot of the descriptions > for schizoid personality, but I think the descriptions for AS fit > even better. Could I be both? The short answer IMO is yes, I think you can be both, although that is probably not the case. AS makes people have social difficulties. It is neurodevelopmental in nature; it is not caused by any bad experience with people. People with AS range from those that are social and friendly and want to have friends and a social life, but are rejected by their peers because they are weird, to people that are mostly asocial and hate social contact. These latter people would fit the SPD definition pretty well. The syndrome covers everything that is in SPD, so if you have the SPD definition met (as I do), but you also have an AS/autism diagnosis, I would say that you have AS or autism and not SPD. Now, I can see a caveat to this. Since SPD is a personality disorder, it can be the result of traumatic experience, like being constantly rejected and taunted (or pummeled) by your peers. This is where the aspie that is " active but odd, " the one who tries to be friendly but always ends up with people hating him for his efforts, can be so traumatized by the abuse that he develops SPD. Rather than being friendly and weird, he becomes aloof and solitary. Although this may look like part of AS, in this case, it would not be, since the aloofness and asociality came from the abuse, not from within. I would expect that most people on the spectrum, having had negative social experiences in life, may be a mix of innate solitary and learned solitary traits. In addition, the ICD-10 does seem to prohibit dual dx of SPD and AS, so I would have to say that the learned asociality portion of AS is just considered part of AS, not a separate PD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2003 Report Share Posted July 19, 2003 > The short answer IMO is yes, > I think you can be both, although > that is probably not the case. Thanks, , I was thinking pretty much the same thing awhile ago, when I realized that I was " different " long before anything bad had happened to me. Here's the thing - I was an " aware " baby. I don't know how to say it any other way. I can remember thinking, " They don't know I'm (inside) here. " A sentient infant. My mother said I starting walking and talking at 10 months, but I was *thinking* long before that. This inner-directed thinking has been the mainstay of my existence. I'm also hypersensitive in every way, I don't see anything about that under SPD. Or the hyperlexia, or........ Clay ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ " National events detemine our ideals, as much as our ideals determine national events. - Jane Addams - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2003 Report Share Posted July 20, 2003 *** I would expect that most people on the spectrum, having had negative social experiences in life, may be a mix of innate solitary and learned solitary traits. In addition, the ICD-10 does seem to prohibit dual dx of SPD and AS, so I would have to say that the learned asociality portion of AS is just considered part of AS, not a separate PD. *** ICD-10 doesn't PROHIBIT Dual diagnosis...it " excludes " the following from SPD as not being the same disorder: * Asperger's syndrome * delusional disorder * schizoid disorder of childhood * schizophrenia * schizotypal disorder And includes and excludes the following from AS: Includes: * autistic psychopathy * schizoid disorder of childhood Excludes: * anakastic personality disorder * attachment disorders of childhood * obsessive-compulsive disorder * schizotypical disorder * simple schizophrenia If you look at other disorders it becomes apparent that the " excludes " and " includes " are intended to establish which are true synonyms among a plethora of US and European Terms, and which are similar disorders (and anybody who is unhappy with the " P " word featuring among the " includes " can come and join my club! *shudders*). Apart from which I agree there is a range of asociality, in response to " normal " circumstances that is most definately an almost unavoidable part of AS, but there is also an abnormal range in response to abnormal circumstances that is not part of AS...and yet does not exclude it. Gaye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2003 Report Share Posted July 23, 2003 wrote: >Some time ago on this list, there was talk of a test for personality >disorders. I retook it, and my results are: >Paranoid PD, Schizoid PD, Schizotypal PD, Antisocial PD, Narcissistic >PD, Avoidant PD, Obsessive-compulsive PD: High >Antisocial, Borderline: Moderate >Histrionic, Dependent: Low >The URL is: >http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personality_disorder_test.mv I was back at work (which means back to web access) yesterday after taking Friday and Monday off for a visit from one of my sisters. (She's just about the best guest imaginable for me, but having her here used up all my energy nevertheless.) So I took that " test. " Results: " Low " on everything except Narcissistic (moderate) and Schizoid, Schizotypal, Obsessive Compulsive (all high);. IMO, that test is not worth a fig. (Took me a while to come up with a polite way to say that.) I base that opinion not on the " results " it gave in my case but on the ludicrousness of expecting questions like that to tell anything useful about anyone, esp. at long distance. Jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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