Re: FW: Declaration of Refusal to Comply

[Guest guest]

Tonio,

It seems like the government is damned if it does or damned if it doesn't. When some crazy goes out and kills a bunch of people and a history of mental illness is bought up then everybody goes well where was the government or why didn't this person get help. This seems like a bill that could be very beneficial. I don't know why the word mandatory should be so scary. There are many laws that govern our nation that are mandatory. I need more concrete information from you or whoever as to why you think this proposed legislation is wrong.tonio epstein wrote:

Brittany,

The issue is summed up in the one word "mandatory". The fact that it is a huge out of control bureaucratic government enforcing and adminiistering it is what terrifies us. You and your collegues see one side of the story. Many of us have seen the opposite side. And thus we cannot abide with it. And most certainly not with our children.

Thus, cries like, "Give me liberty or give me death." Mandatory means no choice, means government overrules our liberty, our privacy, and our self-determination.

I hope that makes it clearer to you.

~Tonio

I need some clarification on this. I don't as a nurse by profession understand what is so bad about this and why people on the list are so outraged. So maybe you all can give me some insight. As an ER nurse I have seen countless children with severe psychiatric disorders encompassing ages as early as a year. I did my psychiatric rotations and was just overwhelmed by what I saw.

I think this is a good thing. There are teachers who state that children on all the psychotropic drugs don't need to be on them at all and that it inhibits their learning abilities. I think a screening would be good. It could show us were possible problems could arise or where none exist at all.

There are many children who are sexually and physically abused at home by a parent or a sibling. These predators are very protected by the children. These children manifest symptoms which alot of times are ignored by non professionals and these children go on to suffer, often times manifesting violent tendencies.

I am sure that yall think your children are all fine.............and well that is all well and good, but there are unwed mothers having children who take all kinds of drugs and abuse alcohol creating severe enviroments for their unborn children in utero. I asked alot of my colleagues at work about this and nobody was outraged like this list is. They all thought it was an excellent idea..........so please tell me what I am missing.

I made an earlier post about the woman in friendswood texas I am not sure of her name now, but she suffered so heavily with post partum depression that she killed all 5 of her children while her husband was at work at nasa. She tried to get help and was ignored by her husband and the medical community. Now I am wondering if this screening would have been available if this woman now would be at home getting the help she needed with her 5 children and not sitting and rotting away in jail. Post partum depression is a real illness and I find the whole thing sad.

So once again please enlighten me as to why this is bad and has caused such an outrage on this list even to the point of petitions.

Thanks

BrittanyPLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Since I was a child I have seen what happens to children who get sucked into the system, some of it rather personal. Let's start with what could occur to some of these children who are perceived as being abused in some way, most of them end up in foster care. The majority of foster homes(I did not say *all*) are run by people looking for extra income, or for *other* reasons. The rate of slavery, molestation, abuse, neglect, etc., in foster homes is staggering. I have personally witnessed within even my own extended family this occurring, and amongst other people in my life as well. Often times the child ends up more abused than the original situation they left. Secondly, if the government mandates that our children be put on some kind of medication, and we do not agree with this route, we can be forced into complying, or have them taken away to said above foster homes. Third, the government can determine that perhaps our personal ideas of child rearing are an endangerment to our children, and have them removed. I have known people who had their children taken away because it was deemed that psychologically the lifestyle of the parent was considered a threat to the child. Examples of this are: gay parents, mothers who work as strippers, parents into alternative sexuality such as BDSM, pagans, anti-establishment families, etc. The whole thing is the government determines *what* is healthy, regardless of what the truth is. This is already occurring without this new regulation, every day. Now, imagine if this new regulation were to go through? Now, first off there are not enough foster homes to stick all of these children in already, so where will they end up? Historically they end up in large cold and sterile institutional orphanages run by government, and that certainly doesn't make for well raised children. I can think of quite a few reasons I could lose my own children, and yet they are not at all abused, mistreated, or in no way lack love. Such legislation could rip the remaining fabric of America apart. It would also start a feast of mistrust amongst people who could begin turning their neighbors in for such things as lack of medicating their annoying ADD kid, or ???? This occurred during Hitler's reign, and we all know where that headed. Remember something, we do grow up someday, we do not need a big parent deciding for us forever how we live our lives. The government was not intended to be an all encompassing parent for those who lack the ability to make decisions for themselves, it was created as a voice for the people. Those of us who are individuals with different ideas or thoughts than the government machine perpetuates or allows to be, are being forced to conform to the majority consensus of what reality is perceived to be. What is not understood is declared wrong most often, and most people will not take the time to look for the truth. They will believe what ever they are told, and history is a true indicator of this. Millions died during the witch trials, millions died in Germany under Hitler's reign, and millions of pagans died under the reign of a new religion. It is not right that a government or large group should have the right to dictate the fate of all peoples. Mass agreeance of an idea does not make it right. This is a raw dairy group, the government feels we should not be able to have raw dairy. Why? Because *they* are perpetuating ignorance in this area of reality. They regulate the water by filling it with fluoride that poisons us daily; they regulate the forest by selling trees to the timber industry; they regulate our food by allowing a ton of toxins and GMO's to fill it; they regulate our schools, and brainwash our children with a distorted view of history;...and I certainly do not want them regulating anything else, since they seems to taint everything they touch. This is not the voice of the people, this is the voice of those brainwashed by ideologies that have no real basis. After all...if it were up to most people, we would never drink raw milk again!

Blessings,

Angel of a repressed society that really wants to break out and live free to make my own decisions. I apologize for sounding so rabid, but you have no clue what I have personally gone through due to government regulation.

Tonio,

It seems like the government is damned if it does or damned if it doesn't. When some crazy goes out and kills a bunch of people and a history of mental illness is bought up then everybody goes well where was the government or why didn't this person get help. This seems like a bill that could be very beneficial. I don't know why the word mandatory should be so scary. There are many laws that govern our nation that are mandatory. I need more concrete information from you or whoever as to why you think this proposed legislation is wrong.tonio epstein wrote:

[Guest guest]

Brittany,

I don't look to the government for anything. I don't expect anything from them, I don't ask anything of them. If I did it would be to put their own self interests aside and really do their utmost to do the job they are supposed to do, which is to serve the people. Since I am utterly convinced they don't, I no longer even expect that of them. Now the most I could hope for it for them to stay out of my life and not intrude into the lives of others. That said, I do understand what you are saying. And I wish I had added something to that effect earlier. Yes, I do agree that it would be great if the government could step in and help in situations like you mentioned. My concern is based on the many situations where the system helps some in need while forcing an inappropriate solution or process on others that is destructive rather than helpful.

So, if given the choice, I'd rather see the government stay out of people's private lives rather than otherwise. It may not be perfect in everyone's eyes. But, I really don't believe that the government knows best. Just look at the raw dairy laws for example. Maybe that's not such a good reference, but it ties it back here a little at least.

Remember the saying, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" ??? I think it applies in this situation to some degree. It is not a black and white, simple one way is right situation. I am only expressing my opinion, and I respect yours and your good intentions. And, I don't think you are wrong. I think your intentions are right. I just don't have faith in body that implements those good intentions.

very respectfully,

Tonio

Tonio,

It seems like the government is damned if it does or damned if it doesn't. When some crazy goes out and kills a bunch of people and a history of mental illness is bought up then everybody goes well where was the government or why didn't this person get help. This seems like a bill that could be very beneficial. I don't know why the word mandatory should be so scary. There are many laws that govern our nation that are mandatory. I need more concrete information from you or whoever as to why you think this proposed legislation is wrong.

[Guest guest]

For those of us who've worked with MRDD kids, we know how truly Ludicrous the Psychiatric Profession has become. Most are not even close to being as practical as Dr. Phil, and by most other professional standards would be considered incompetent.

Our Public and Legal Policies in this area are Atrocious, and allow people to refuse the Drugs anyway, as it violates their Civil Rights, even if they're making everybody else's life in the group home or classroom a living hell. Our homeless a few decades ago would have been institutionalized and drugged, which might be preferable to having them starve in a cold alley somewhere.

One kid came back from a stay at a hospital, after threatening his family with a knife, who's testing merely confirmed he was Retarded... no kidding, and he was my student, and I saw the report.

So even if they find people who are about to blow..... Columbine and the poor TX woman who killed her children shows that the Drugs are not the answer, and that No One is willing or required to step-up and say they mis-diagnosed the situation when they do.

The TX woman was on a toxic Haldol mixture that would have made Jesus want to kill somebody. The facts about this drug have been known since the 1970s. Just recently, Zoloft was shown to Increase Suicide rates among teens.

--Terry

Re: FW: Declaration of Refusal to Comply

Here's where I think people don't like it Brittany. I think there is the impression out there, rightly or wrongly, that phychotropic drugs like Ritalin, etc. are being prescribed left and right to kids, and for most it is unnecessary. There is also the impression that many teachers want it prescribed because it will help them keep the class (read boys) under control better. It is mostly boys on Ritalin--like 90% or something. What is needed is the ability of teachers to discipline kids more effectively and not have their hands tied. And of course, better parental involvement and discipline of kids as well. Teaching kids self-control and how to be a blessing to others instead of a curse is a lost art these days. I think Illinois just went too far in adopting this thing. I think all parents feel a certain amount of outrage at how much the state wants to get into and control our lives and the lives of our children, so when stuff like this comes along, the parental defenses go up in a big way. It feels like more government intrusion, and possible unnecessary mandating of drugs. Every parents can just envision the state screening their child and saying "Well, Mrs. , your son needs to go on Ritalin immediately. I know you weren't aware of the problem, but we have discovered it, and your son must take it, like it or not." This legislation is a great example of good intentions gone wrong. Something that seems nice but ultimately is a bad idea in it's application. But I do understand your points about abused kids and single parents, etc. etc. There is a lot of stuff going on out there that we just can't fathom. But there's got to be a way to find those hurting kids without dragging in perfectly healthy kids. It's a difficult situation.> Brittany,> > The issue is summed up in the one word "mandatory". The fact that it is a huge out of control bureaucratic government enforcing and adminiistering it is what terrifies us. You and your collegues see one side of the story. Many of us have seen the opposite side. And thus we cannot abide with it. And most certainly not with our children.> > Thus, cries like, "Give me liberty or give me death." Mandatory means no choice, means government overrules our liberty, our privacy, and our self-determination.> > I hope that makes it clearer to you.> > ~Tonio> > > I need some clarification on this. I don't as a nurse by profession understand what is so bad about this and why people on the list are so outraged. So maybe you all can give me some insight. As an ER nurse I have seen countless children with severe psychiatric disorders encompassing ages as early as a year. I did my psychiatric rotations and was just overwhelmed by what I saw.> > I think this is a good thing. There are teachers who state that children on all the psychotropic drugs don't need to be on them at all and that it inhibits their learning abilities. I think a screening would be good. It could show us were possible problems could arise or where none exist at all.> > There are many children who are sexually and physically abused at home by a parent or a sibling. These predators are very protected by the children. These children manifest symptoms which alot of times are ignored by non professionals and these children go on to suffer, often times manifesting violent tendencies. > > I am sure that yall think your children are all fine.............and well that is all well and good, but there are unwed mothers having children who take all kinds of drugs and abuse alcohol creating severe enviroments for their unborn children in utero. I asked alot of my colleagues at work about this and nobody was outraged like this list is. They all thought it was an excellent idea..........so please tell me what I am missing.> > I made an earlier post about the woman in friendswood texas I am not sure of her name now, but she suffered so heavily with post partum depression that she killed all 5 of her children while her husband was at work at nasa. She tried to get help and was ignored by her husband and the medical community. Now I am wondering if this screening would have been available if this woman now would be at home getting the help she needed with her 5 children and not sitting and rotting away in jail. Post partum depression is a real illness and I find the whole thing sad.> > So once again please enlighten me as to why this is bad and has caused such an outrage on this list even to the point of petitions.> > Thanks> Brittany

[Guest guest]

Wow tonio that is mind blowing for me. I know that all have their political offiliations and I truly respect that that is why I am so proud to live in a country that lets me do essentially what I want and I can express even a greater opinion by voting. That is a privalege that I am grateful to have. We have always been a governed nation. I just recently took gov and history in college and it seems to me that all societies have been governed in one form or another.

It just seems to me when you have mass population you must have a governing force or you will have anarchy or caos. Has my government let me down before yes..........but I refuse to believe that I can't make a difference if there is a policy I don't agree with. I believe that one voice as well as many can make a difference. I don't mean to be disrespectful to you, but I almost feel sorry for you that you opinions are so jaded.

I wonder if somebody had a magic wand and made you president if you could run our nation better and if you wouldn't encounter resistance. Sometimes doing things that protect the masses doesn't always make everyone happy. Can you tell me what you have done personally to change legislation in your state for the raw dairy milk laws. I would like to know. I think our government is essential good and I truly feel a sense of freedom living here in the US. I have been in other countries through missionary works and even speaking a word against the governing bodies means you would be killed instantly on the spot. I get from your post the US is bad...........is this place really so terrible to be in tonio??? I ask these questions purely out of interest and don't mean to be offensive. I in all honestly can't look anybody in the face and say MY government does not serve the people. There are people all over the world risking everything to come to MY country for its

opportunities............but for most all its freedoms.

Brittanytonio epstein wrote:

Brittany,

I don't look to the government for anything. I don't expect anything from them, I don't ask anything of them. If I did it would be to put their own self interests aside and really do their utmost to do the job they are supposed to do, which is to serve the people. Since I am utterly convinced they don't, I no longer even expect that of them. Now the most I could hope for it for them to stay out of my life and not intrude into the lives of others. That said, I do understand what you are saying. And I wish I had added something to that effect earlier. Yes, I do agree that it would be great if the government could step in and help in situations like you mentioned. My concern is based on the many situations where the system helps some in need while forcing an inappropriate solution or process on others that is destructive rather than helpful.

So, if given the choice, I'd rather see the government stay out of people's private lives rather than otherwise. It may not be perfect in everyone's eyes. But, I really don't believe that the government knows best. Just look at the raw dairy laws for example. Maybe that's not such a good reference, but it ties it back here a little at least.

Remember the saying, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" ??? I think it applies in this situation to some degree. It is not a black and white, simple one way is right situation. I am only expressing my opinion, and I respect yours and your good intentions. And, I don't think you are wrong. I think your intentions are right. I just don't have faith in body that implements those good intentions.

very respectfully,

Tonio

Tonio,

It seems like the government is damned if it does or damned if it doesn't. When some crazy goes out and kills a bunch of people and a history of mental illness is bought up then everybody goes well where was the government or why didn't this person get help. This seems like a bill that could be very beneficial. I don't know why the word mandatory should be so scary. There are many laws that govern our nation that are mandatory. I need more concrete information from you or whoever as to why you think this proposed legislation is wrong.PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Please show me the part of the bill that states children will be taken from their homes and placed in foster care. Please show me the part of the bill that states children will be put on medicaitons even against their parents will. I need to see in black and white were these things are written or if this is purely speculation on peoples parts. I need to know if this is a real part of the bill or peoples paranoia. What about all the people that do great pshychiatric works. I know so many of them. I work closely with some of them. This world can't be all bad folks!!!

BrittanyAngel wrote:

Since I was a child I have seen what happens to children who get sucked into the system, some of it rather personal. Let's start with what could occur to some of these children who are perceived as being abused in some way, most of them end up in foster care. The majority of foster homes(I did not say *all*) are run by people looking for extra income, or for *other* reasons. The rate of slavery, molestation, abuse, neglect, etc., in foster homes is staggering. I have personally witnessed within even my own extended family this occurring, and amongst other people in my life as well. Often times the child ends up more abused than the original situation they left. Secondly, if the government mandates that our children be put on some kind of medication, and we do not agree with this route, we can be forced into complying, or have them taken away to said above foster homes. Third, the government can determine that perhaps our personal ideas of child

rearing are an endangerment to our children, and have them removed. I have known people who had their children taken away because it was deemed that psychologically the lifestyle of the parent was considered a threat to the child. Examples of this are: gay parents, mothers who work as strippers, parents into alternative sexuality such as BDSM, pagans, anti-establishment families, etc. The whole thing is the government determines *what* is healthy, regardless of what the truth is. This is already occurring without this new regulation, every day. Now, imagine if this new regulation were to go through? Now, first off there are not enough foster homes to stick all of these children in already, so where will they end up? Historically they end up in large cold and sterile institutional orphanages run by government, and that certainly doesn't make for well raised children. I can think of quite a few reasons I could lose my own children, and yet they are not at all abused, mistreated,

or in no way lack love. Such legislation could rip the remaining fabric of America apart. It would also start a feast of mistrust amongst people who could begin turning their neighbors in for such things as lack of medicating their annoying ADD kid, or ???? This occurred during Hitler's reign, and we all know where that headed. Remember something, we do grow up someday, we do not need a big parent deciding for us forever how we live our lives. The government was not intended to be an all encompassing parent for those who lack the ability to make decisions for themselves, it was created as a voice for the people. Those of us who are individuals with different ideas or thoughts than the government machine perpetuates or allows to be, are being forced to conform to the majority consensus of what reality is perceived to be. What is not understood is declared wrong most often, and most people will not take the time to look for the truth. They will believe what

ever they are told, and history is a true indicator of this. Millions died during the witch trials, millions died in Germany under Hitler's reign, and millions of pagans died under the reign of a new religion. It is not right that a government or large group should have the right to dictate the fate of all peoples. Mass agreeance of an idea does not make it right. This is a raw dairy group, the government feels we should not be able to have raw dairy. Why? Because *they* are perpetuating ignorance in this area of reality. They regulate the water by filling it with fluoride that poisons us daily; they regulate the forest by selling trees to the timber industry; they regulate our food by allowing a ton of toxins and GMO's to fill it; they regulate our schools, and brainwash our children with a distorted view of history;...and I certainly do not want them regulating anything else, since they seems to taint everything they touch. This is not the voice

of the people, this is the voice of those brainwashed by ideologies that have no real basis. After all...if it were up to most people, we would never drink raw milk again!

Blessings,

Angel of a repressed society that really wants to break out and live free to make my own decisions. I apologize for sounding so rabid, but you have no clue what I have personally gone through due to government regulation.

Tonio,

It seems like the government is damned if it does or damned if it doesn't. When some crazy goes out and kills a bunch of people and a history of mental illness is bought up then everybody goes well where was the government or why didn't this person get help. This seems like a bill that could be very beneficial. I don't know why the word mandatory should be so scary. There are many laws that govern our nation that are mandatory. I need more concrete information from you or whoever as to why you think this proposed legislation is wrong.tonio epstein wrote:

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Please allow me to speak up for the people who foster which I do. I have children that I have had the awesome experience of them being part of my life. I was a foster child and that made me want to foster. I can say my experience was great and these people the Hardings God bless them had a huge influence in the person I am today. I am grateful to them.

BrittanyAngel wrote:

Since I was a child I have seen what happens to children who get sucked into the system, some of it rather personal. Let's start with what could occur to some of these children who are perceived as being abused in some way, most of them end up in foster care. The majority of foster homes(I did not say *all*) are run by people looking for extra income, or for *other* reasons. The rate of slavery, molestation, abuse, neglect, etc., in foster homes is staggering. I have personally witnessed within even my own extended family this occurring, and amongst other people in my life as well. Often times the child ends up more abused than the original situation they left. Secondly, if the government mandates that our children be put on some kind of medication, and we do not agree with this route, we can be forced into complying, or have them taken away to said above foster homes. Third, the government can determine that perhaps our personal ideas of child

rearing are an endangerment to our children, and have them removed. I have known people who had their children taken away because it was deemed that psychologically the lifestyle of the parent was considered a threat to the child. Examples of this are: gay parents, mothers who work as strippers, parents into alternative sexuality such as BDSM, pagans, anti-establishment families, etc. The whole thing is the government determines *what* is healthy, regardless of what the truth is. This is already occurring without this new regulation, every day. Now, imagine if this new regulation were to go through? Now, first off there are not enough foster homes to stick all of these children in already, so where will they end up? Historically they end up in large cold and sterile institutional orphanages run by government, and that certainly doesn't make for well raised children. I can think of quite a few reasons I could lose my own children, and yet they are not at all abused, mistreated,

or in no way lack love. Such legislation could rip the remaining fabric of America apart. It would also start a feast of mistrust amongst people who could begin turning their neighbors in for such things as lack of medicating their annoying ADD kid, or ???? This occurred during Hitler's reign, and we all know where that headed. Remember something, we do grow up someday, we do not need a big parent deciding for us forever how we live our lives. The government was not intended to be an all encompassing parent for those who lack the ability to make decisions for themselves, it was created as a voice for the people. Those of us who are individuals with different ideas or thoughts than the government machine perpetuates or allows to be, are being forced to conform to the majority consensus of what reality is perceived to be. What is not understood is declared wrong most often, and most people will not take the time to look for the truth. They will believe what

ever they are told, and history is a true indicator of this. Millions died during the witch trials, millions died in Germany under Hitler's reign, and millions of pagans died under the reign of a new religion. It is not right that a government or large group should have the right to dictate the fate of all peoples. Mass agreeance of an idea does not make it right. This is a raw dairy group, the government feels we should not be able to have raw dairy. Why? Because *they* are perpetuating ignorance in this area of reality. They regulate the water by filling it with fluoride that poisons us daily; they regulate the forest by selling trees to the timber industry; they regulate our food by allowing a ton of toxins and GMO's to fill it; they regulate our schools, and brainwash our children with a distorted view of history;...and I certainly do not want them regulating anything else, since they seems to taint everything they touch. This is not the voice

of the people, this is the voice of those brainwashed by ideologies that have no real basis. After all...if it were up to most people, we would never drink raw milk again!

Blessings,

Angel of a repressed society that really wants to break out and live free to make my own decisions. I apologize for sounding so rabid, but you have no clue what I have personally gone through due to government regulation.

Tonio,

It seems like the government is damned if it does or damned if it doesn't. When some crazy goes out and kills a bunch of people and a history of mental illness is bought up then everybody goes well where was the government or why didn't this person get help. This seems like a bill that could be very beneficial. I don't know why the word mandatory should be so scary. There are many laws that govern our nation that are mandatory. I need more concrete information from you or whoever as to why you think this proposed legislation is wrong.tonio epstein wrote:

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Brittany,

The programs would be run by the individual states. The state already has the power to enforce any of these extremities, this *already* exist. It has nothing to do with the legistaliation it's self, and what is in it, the law already says we must comply with state ruled decisions. Every day the sate rules people must comply with state ruled decisions, or lose their children. This new legislation only makes it more mandatory that we all be investigated, the state already has the power to do whatever it decides. The fact is it is already a reality, this legislation just increases the numbers affected.

Blessings,

Angel

Please show me the part of the bill that states children will be taken from their homes and placed in foster care. Please show me the part of the bill that states children will be put on medicaitons even against their parents will. I need to see in black and white were these things are written or if this is purely

[Guest guest]

Since I was a child I have seen what happens to children who get sucked into the system, some of it rather personal. Let's start with what could occur to some of these children who are perceived as being abused in some way, most of them end up in foster care. The majority of foster homes(I did not say *all*) are run by people looking for extra income, or for *other* reasons. The rate of slavery, molestation, abuse, neglect, etc., in foster homes is staggering. I have personally witnessed within even my own extended family this occurring, and amongst other people in my life as well. Often times the child ends up more abused than the original situation they left. Secondly, if the government mandates that our children be put on some kind of medication, and we do not agree with this route, we can be forced into complying, or have them taken away to said above foster homes. Third, the government can determine that perhaps our personal ideas of child rearing are an endangerment to our children, and have them removed. I have known people who had their children taken away because it was deemed that psychologically the lifestyle of the parent was considered a threat to the child. Examples of this are: gay parents, mothers who work as strippers, parents into alternative sexuality such as BDSM, pagans, anti-establishment families, etc. The whole thing is the government determines *what* is healthy, regardless of what the truth is. This is already occurring without this new regulation, every day. Now, imagine if this new regulation were to go through? Now, first off there are not enough foster homes to stick all of these children in already, so where will they end up? Historically they end up in large cold and sterile institutional orphanages run by government, and that certainly doesn't make for well raised children. I can think of quite a few reasons I could lose my own children, and yet they are not at all abused, mistreated, or in no way lack love. Such legislation could rip the remaining fabric of America apart. It would also start a feast of mistrust amongst people who could begin turning their neighbors in for such things as lack of medicating their annoying ADD kid, or ???? This occurred during Hitler's reign, and we all know where that headed. Remember something, we do grow up someday, we do not need a big parent deciding for us forever how we live our lives. The government was not intended to be an all encompassing parent for those who lack the ability to make decisions for themselves, it was created as a voice for the people. Those of us who are individuals with different ideas or thoughts than the government machine perpetuates or allows to be, are being forced to conform to the majority consensus of what reality is perceived to be. What is not understood is declared wrong most often, and most people will not take the time to look for the truth. They will believe what ever they are told, and history is a true indicator of this. Millions died during the witch trials, millions died in Germany under Hitler's reign, and millions of pagans died under the reign of a new religion. It is not right that a government or large group should have the right to dictate the fate of all peoples. Mass agreeance of an idea does not make it right. This is a raw dairy group, the government feels we should not be able to have raw dairy. Why? Because *they* are perpetuating ignorance in this area of reality. They regulate the water by filling it with fluoride that poisons us daily; they regulate the forest by selling trees to the timber industry; they regulate our food by allowing a ton of toxins and GMO's to fill it; they regulate our schools, and brainwash our children with a distorted view of history;...and I certainly do not want them regulating anything else, since they seems to taint everything they touch. This is not the voice of the people, this is the voice of those brainwashed by ideologies that have no real basis. After all...if it were up to most people, we would never drink raw milk again!

Blessings,

Angel of a repressed society that really wants to break out and live free to make my own decisions. I apologize for sounding so rabid, but you have no clue what I have personally gone through due to government regulation.

Tonio,

It seems like the government is damned if it does or damned if it doesn't. When some crazy goes out and kills a bunch of people and a history of mental illness is bought up then everybody goes well where was the government or why didn't this person get help. This seems like a bill that could be very beneficial. I don't know why the word mandatory should be so scary. There are many laws that govern our nation that are mandatory. I need more concrete information from you or whoever as to why you think this proposed legislation is wrong.

tonio epstein wrote:

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Somebody tell me we couldn't possibly be getting so far out into left field now that we are comparing this piece of legislation to HITLER............come on!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is absolutely mind blowing.

Brittany

BrittanyArlene Foreman wrote:

Since I was a child I have seen what happens to children who get sucked into the system, some of it rather personal. Let's start with what could occur to some of these children who are perceived as being abused in some way, most of them end up in foster care. The majority of foster homes(I did not say *all*) are run by people looking for extra income, or for *other* reasons. The rate of slavery, molestation, abuse, neglect, etc., in foster homes is staggering. I have personally witnessed within even my own extended family this occurring, and amongst other people in my life as well. Often times the child ends up more abused than the original situation they left. Secondly, if the government mandates that our children be put on some kind of medication, and we do not agree with this route, we can be forced into complying, or have them taken away to said above foster homes. Third, the government can determine that perhaps our

personal ideas of child rearing are an endangerment to our children, and have them removed. I have known people who had their children taken away because it was deemed that psychologically the lifestyle of the parent was considered a threat to the child. Examples of this are: gay parents, mothers who work as strippers, parents into alternative sexuality such as BDSM, pagans, anti-establishment families, etc. The whole thing is the government determines *what* is healthy, regardless of what the truth is. This is already occurring without this new regulation, every day. Now, imagine if this new regulation were to go through? Now, first off there are not enough foster homes to stick all of these children in already, so where will they end up? Historically they end up in large cold and sterile institutional orphanages run by government, and that certainly doesn't make for well raised children. I can think of quite a few reasons I could lose my own children, and yet they are not at all

abused, mistreated, or in no way! lack lo ve. Such legislation could rip the remaining fabric of America apart. It would also start a feast of mistrust amongst people who could begin turning their neighbors in for such things as lack of medicating their annoying ADD kid, or ???? This occurred during Hitler's reign, and we all know where that headed. Remember something, we do grow up someday, we do not need a big parent deciding for us forever how we live our lives. The government was not intended to be an all encompassing parent for those who lack the ability to make decisions for themselves, it was created as a voice for the people. Those of us who are individuals with different ideas or thoughts than the government machine perpetuates or allows to be, are being forced to conform to the majority consensus of what reality is perceived to be. What is not understood is declared wrong most often, and most people will not take the time to look for the truth. They will believe what ever

they are told, and history is a true indicator of this. Millions died during the witch trials, millions died in Germany under Hitler's reign, and millions of pagans died under the reign of a new religion. It is not right that a government or large group should have the right to dictate the fate of all peoples. Mass agreeance of an idea does not make it right. This is a raw dairy group, the government feels we should not be able to have raw dairy. Why? Because *they* are perpetuating ignorance in this area of reality. They regulate the water by filling it with fluoride that poisons us daily; they regulate the forest by selling trees to the timber industry; they regulate our food by allowing a ton of toxins and GMO's to fill it; they regulate our schools, and brainwash our children with a distorted view of history;...and I certainly do not want them regulating anything else, since they seems to taint everything they touch. This is not the voice of the people, this is the voice of

those brainwashed by ideologies that have no real basis. After all...if it were up to most ! people, we would never drink raw milk again! Blessings,Angel of a repressed society that really wants to break out and live free to make my own decisions. I apologize for sounding so rabid, but you have no clue what I have personally gone through due to government regulation.

Tonio, It seems like the government is damned if it does or damned if it doesn't. When some crazy goes out and kills a bunch of people and a history of mental illness is bought up then everybody goes well where was the government or why didn't this person get help. This seems like a bill that could be very beneficial. I don't know why the word mandatory should be so scary. There are many laws that govern our nation that are mandatory. I need more concrete information from you or whoever as to why you think this proposed legislation is wrong.tonio epstein wrote:

PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Okay tonio I can go with what you have said here because to me it has a much more positive light than the previous post. I know not all is perfect but we much each do what we can to make it better than totally having nothing to do with it nor any expectations from it.

Brittanytonio epstein wrote:

Hi Brittany,

I think you are reading a little too much between my lines. I was mainly asserting my own ideal of non-interference into the political world. Not the total elimination of all government.

You made a lot of assumptions below that not only did I not say, but do not feel or believe. Feel free to reread my earlier post and resist the temptation to assume anything beyond that. I am very openly and honestly sharing my views with you.

I also know that there ARE wonderful people in government and the implementing arms thereof, but, there are also many others with other degrees of intentions and abilities. I would like to maintain my own legal right to make my own choices, and to help preserve other's choices as well. That is all. Just respectful limitations on government and their right to interfere into the lives of others.

I'm not proposing chaos or anarchy in the USA. I love the freedom I have here too. But, I can see the writing on the walls. Those freedoms are being eroded in these troubling times. Some in the name of good intentions, and some for more devious reasons. But I will clearly reiterate that I do not trust my government. As a responsible citizen of this nation it is my duty to educate myself about my government and its doings. That was instilled into me very early. I envy your faith in our government. But I just don't agree with some of its policies and practices.

I would not like to be president of this nation. That is not an ambition I am cut out for.

Political discussions are very challenging. It's hard to really hear what each different person is really saying. It's so easy to project our own fears or concerns onto others we don't understand.

If I was a part of our government I woudl do the best I could to address everyone's concerns, but I know that is a terribly difficult and mostly thankless job. Being thinskinned as I am, I probably wouldn't last long or would become hardened to it, or possibly I would be able to keep my heart open through all the heartbreaking experiences of failing to accompllish what I believed to be the best solutions. I have already had many such experiences in much lower levels of govenmental participation.

I think it is wonderful that you care so much and that you believe in the ability of the government to really help. I also care so much about all of this, that is why I express, what is often a misunderstood and unpopular opinion.

I believe that what is in the heart is even more important than what we do or think. (undoubtedly another highly misunderstood and unpopular sentiment) That is why I honor you and have faith in you, because of what I can see shining from your heart.

Being jaded is hard. Losing ones faith in government is a sad thing. But what if it was truly justified??? Sometimes one must "walk through the shadow of the valley of darkness" in order to re-emerge into the light again.

We are both right in our own ways. May we both continue to grow and learn and serve what is most precious.

~Tonio

Wow tonio that is mind blowing for me. I know that all have their political offiliations and I truly respect that that is why I am so proud to live in a country that lets me do essentially what I want and I can express even a greater opinion by voting. That is a privalege that I am grateful to have. We have always been a governed nation. I just recently took gov and history in college and it seems to me that all societies have been governed in one form or another.

It just seems to me when you have mass population you must have a governing force or you will have anarchy or caos. Has my government let me down before yes..........but I refuse to believe that I can't make a difference if there is a policy I don't agree with. I believe that one voice as well as many can make a difference. I don't mean to be disrespectful to you, but I almost feel sorry for you that you opinions are so jaded.

I wonder if somebody had a magic wand and made you president if you could run our nation better and if you wouldn't encounter resistance. Sometimes doing things that protect the masses doesn't always make everyone happy. Can you tell me what you have done personally to change legislation in your state for the raw dairy milk laws. I would like to know. I think our government is essential good and I truly feel a sense of freedom living here in the US. I have been in other countries through missionary works and even speaking a word against the governing bodies means you would be killed instantly on the spot. I get from your post the US is bad...........is this place really so terrible to be in tonio??? I ask these questions purely out of interest and don't mean to be offensive. I in all honestly can't look anybody in the face and say MY government does not serve the people. There are people all over the world risking everything to come to MY country for its

opportunities............but for most all its freedoms.

BrittanyPLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Like I asked before please refer me to this bill that I might read it myself. I want to see these things in print. Please forward me the site angel that I might do that.

BrittanyAngel wrote:

Brittany,

The programs would be run by the individual states. The state already has the power to enforce any of these extremities, this *already* exist. It has nothing to do with the legistaliation it's self, and what is in it, the law already says we must comply with state ruled decisions. Every day the sate rules people must comply with state ruled decisions, or lose their children. This new legislation only makes it more mandatory that we all be investigated, the state already has the power to do whatever it decides. The fact is it is already a reality, this legislation just increases the numbers affected.

Blessings,

Angel

Please show me the part of the bill that states children will be taken from their homes and placed in foster care. Please show me the part of the bill that states children will be put on medicaitons even against their parents will. I need to see in black and white were these things are written or if this is purely PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Even in prehistoric times individuals rose up as the most dominant and leader of a trible. I look forward to reading your references thank you for sending them to me.

BrittanyTom Chapin wrote:

>I just recently took gov and history in college and it seems to me that>all societies have been governed in one form or another.Maybe for the last 13,000 years after we developed agriculture, but not forthe first three million years of our history.For an alternative view of governments, try Diamond who wrote thenotable work "Guns, Germs, and Steel" that shows why western europeancivilization has more "stuff" than others. A shorter article, "The WorstMistake in the History of the Human Race" is available here:http://www.agron.iastate.edu/courses/agron342/diamondmistake.htmlTomPLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

I could go on for days, but let's start with the obvious...

1. Too much processed sugar in our diet, in all forms.

2. Other things in our diet that are poisoning us on a daily basis (ie.

P/H milk full of hormones).

3. Doctors too readily prescribing meds as a quick fix for the symptoms

instead of getting to the root of the problem.

4. Two-income families with no mom at home to monitor the children.

5. Parents that don't care.

6. Parents whom have had their ability to discipline their children

legislated/adjudicated away from them.

7. Teachers and school administrators that are afraid to correct children

due to fear/threat of lawsuits.

8. Violence/Sex on TV teaching our children things that they don't need to

be learning.

9. No moral standards being taught in school, and in few homes. No longer

right/wrong. It's all OK now.

10. Perpetual welfare state.

11. Action/reaction - responsibility for own actions. If you do something

(ANYTHING), there will be a reaction of some sort. If you do something

wrong, there WILL be a consequence. It's called external vs internal locus

of control (always blaming someone else for your problems) in psycho

babble.

Any one of the above could cause the problem. You add them together, and

it just compounds the situation.

Peace,

Blane

If God is for us, who can be against us? Rom. 8:31b

To ignore the facts does not change that they are the facts. - Andy Rooney

Whether you think you can, or think you can't, you're right. - Henry Ford

*******************************************************

Dollie Cain

<dolliecain@sbcg To: RawDairy

lobal.net> cc:

Subject: Re: Re: FW:

Declaration of Refusal to

09/25/2004 02:25 Comply

PM

Please respond

to RawDairy

I have to tell you my neice is a teacher and her along with many others

believe that way too many children are on ritilan. There is also extensive

articles that have come out in JAMA against ritalin and the other popular

pshycotropic drugs and their negative reactions in children. The medical

community is greatly opposed to the useage of many of these drugs. I would

like to read the specifics of this bill and wonder how long the screening

should take place. I will tell you what I think.............I think its

children not getting disiplilned at home or watching to much violent

activity on TV. I know that sounds simplistic but our media is such a

strong influence. I can also tell you that if somebody died and left me in

charge I would go so far as to impose enforced birth control on some women

even up to having hysterectomies. I see 14yr olds coming into the ER

pregnant and you talk to them and they are a blank they have no clue. Their

mothers are there and they think its cute " My baby is having a baby " I walk

out shaking my head in total disbelief. Where are our morals???? I see

these women having their 5th and 6th cocaine babies, and these babies are

all screwed up so many problems. I would say thats it no more babies for

you.............period you are not responsible and I have to do something

to stop your negative, destructive and harmful behavior.

Brittany

[Guest guest]

> 4. Two-income families with no mom at home to monitor the children.

Um, faulty (and sexist) logic here, Blane. No longer is it possible

for a family to survive on one income, in today's economy. You want

moms to stay home with kids while dad works, just like in the 1950's?

Fine, then push for legislation to raise the minimum wage, make

home-making a paid position, just like any other job, and ensure

parents can stay home with their kids until the kids are able to fend

for themselves. And who says it's got to be the moms? What's wrong

with dads?

> 5. Parents that don't care.

No, it's SOME parents who don't care. Many parents (particularly

single moms who have left abusive marriages yet try to raise their

kids decently) need to work several jobs to keep a roof over their

head, feed the kids, and pay the bills. See my previous rebuttal.

> 9. No moral standards being taught in school, and in few homes. No

longer right/wrong. It's all OK now.

This is a loaded subject and one had best be clear just what morals

and values are being taught. In my experience, when these words are

flung about, it's a code that refers to anyone who is outside the pale

of heterosexual, white, Christian middle-class culture.

I know, I know, starting another fire here, but the blanket statements

you made above really get my goat, b/c they are simplistic and don't

take into account extenuating factors that people often have no

control over.

~Joe

[Guest guest]

Hi Joe,

I had decided to stay out of this one. But, seeing your response I just want to say that I totally agree!!!

Most "morality" is based on religious beliefs, not an objective system that everyone can agree on. There is very little that is plain black & white in the real world.

~Tonio

I know, I know, starting another fire here, but the blanket statementsyou made above really get my goat, b/c they are simplistic and don'ttake into account extenuating factors that people often have nocontrol over.~Joe