Re: Mold Spore Level of Long term Closed buildings

September 7, 2005

We recently have been doing some mold spore testing of buildings that

have been unheated and unoccupied for 6 months to 2 years. There is

no history or evidence of water intrusion, but mold spore levels are

higher than in homes with HVAC running. The homes were unheated in

winter, no air conditioning. Water systems disconnected. Homes

entered once per month to cut grass in the summer.

Has anyone else seen similar findings?

Bob

September 8, 2005

Has anyone else seen similar findings?

Every day, For some reason I am the one that many realtors want a ballpark estimate for hud houses, fannymae , etc. All have been closed up tight during the most humid summer Alabama has experience. Go figure?

Lee

September 8, 2005

We recently have been doing some mold spore testing of buildings that have been unheated and unoccupied for 6 months to 2 years. There is no history or evidence of water intrusion, but mold spore levels are higher than in homes with HVAC running. The homes were unheated in winter, no air conditioning. Water systems disconnected. Homes entered once per month to cut grass in the summer.Has anyone else seen similar findings?Bob

Bob,

I am a bit confused. How are you all testing this one specific scenario, yet in houses that have experienced water intrusion and where the occupants have symptoms indicative of excessive fungal exposure, we can't get anybody from the government to come test. NIOSH tells us they only will examine large facilities such as schools. Then, when they do examine, they don't release the results to those who have been made ill. Instead they reference the American College of Occupational and Environmental Medicine's (ACOEM) bogus Mold Statement which implies these people couldn't possibly be ill with the symptoms they are reporting.

The ACOEM is an organization whose physician members often times evaluate injured worker, including those who are ill after environmental exposures. This evaluation is performed largely to determine eligibility for worker's comp and disability insurance. The ACOEM has very close ties to the insurance industry. This statement was written by expert witnesses for the defense in mold cases. It was then pushed through a biased and bypassed peer review process. Some of the doctors of the ACOEM asked for Conflict of Interest statements from the authors. Never got it. ONE RAT STUDY is the foundation of the premeise that people are not getting sick from indoor mold exposure and it is based on these expert defense witnesses' mathmatical extrapolation from ONE RAT STUDY. This is the "scientific" foundation being used to deny people are being made ill from mold exposure in an indoor environment. This is the guise they used to differenciate indoor environments from all other environments so that the vast medical knowledge of what is known about mycotic diseases would not apply to indoor environments....also known as real estate assets and potential source of liabitly.

If that wasn't enough, the authors of this paper were then paid $40,000 to market this BS through the US Chamber of Commerce and affliate stakeholder industries such as real estate, building and insurance. The law firms have jumped in here to use the ACOEM statement also. There is a paper authored by the defense firm of Gordon and Rees on how to use the ACOEM Statement in court to defeat those who have been made ill after excessive indoor fungal exposure.

This situation is so perverse. Deny the illnesses in order to limit liability and win court cases. Pretty slick. But there is a problem with this even from a financial standpoint. By stifling the medical understanding and keeping the doctors uninformed by attributing all the illnesses THOUSANDS are complaining of, to "Media, trial lawyers and junk science", they are also limiting effective medical treatment for those who are ill. By doing this, they are allowing these illnesses to progress to serious immunological diseases. Which is costing our society as a whole dearly in wasted health care costs and permenant loss of productivity of many citizens. Did you know that the NIESH came out with a statement in August saying one out of six high school students has asthma? Or that studies show 25% of those who are ill after mold exposure do not have allergies?

The manner in which they use the term asthma is a joke. They are lumping a whole lot of serious immunological and toxin induced illnesses under this term in an efffort to limit financial liability in the courtrooms. I am not aware of asthma causing cognitive and neurological dysfuction. I am aware of it being well documented that excessive exposure to fungi cause these problems (of course, only if you are exposed to it everywhere else on the entire planet except homes, schools or offices).

C'mon! Somebody needs to step up to the plate here and acknowledge what's going on. These hurricanes are stretching the big lie to the limit. If we don't do something, we are going to have a whole generation down in New Orleans that is going to grow up sick, and therefore become a burden on society.

If not simply because it is the moral thing to do - treat the sick and stop calling them liars, then at least do it for our national wallets. This is going to be a long term mess if our goverment and the poweful private industries that are driving this lie don't do a quick turn around on how to address mycotic diseases.

Is anybody at a decision making level within our government concerned about the future of this country more so than they are about pleasing lobbiests for big businesses? Somebody with some ethics needs to take the helm of this ship.

Sharon

September 8, 2005

Sharon, group.

Closed Building #1

Here is a an example of one senario. A school has been closed up

since June. No AC, no other activities. The school wants the air

tested before school starts. There is no history of water leaks.

No elevated moisture levels. Located in area of severe drougth for the

past 6 months.

The air testing shows total spore levels 50% less than outside air.

However, Penicillium is not as low (proportionally) as the other

genera.

Research (Soloman and Raponen) have shown that Penicillium typically is

higher indoors than outdoors during winter cold months.

Are these levels indicative of a problem? Probably not, but reference

material is what I am looking for.

Closed Building #2

A home was abandon by its previous owner over 18 months ago. The home

is now 2 years old. During this time no heat or AC or water use.

No history of water leaks. No visible mold. No elevated moisture

levels. Located in area of severe drougth for the past 6 months.

Again, The air testing shows total spore levels 50% less than outside

air. However, Penicillium is not as low (proportionally) as the other

genera.

Penicillium is a mold species that once establish can grow in as low as

20% RH. You can also see the unusual nature of Penicillium by its

growth in refrigerators.

I am not aware of any targeted research on Pencillium in homes and why

it does not behave like other mold species.

Hence, my question.

BOB

September 8, 2005

Bob

This problem is strongly related to the 'closed cottage' problem that often

results in moldy materials and surfaces when the crew first arrives in the

spring. Moisture pumping from the diurnal variations of indoor temperature

and indoor RH interacting with air leaks result in frequent surface

condensation and high moisture contents of some materials like bedding and

plush furniture. Keeping the windows shuttered (as used to be the custom)

helps a whole lot but is seldom done anymore. Several recent issues of

cottage magazines have covered this problem. We see it here when the

government expropriates housing in park areas then has to tear it down as

'non-repairable' after several years of no heating (can't tell those people

anything about the need for ongoing heating/cooling).

Jim H. White SSAL

Re: Mold Spore Level of Long term Closed buildings

> We recently have been doing some mold spore testing of buildings that

> have been unheated and unoccupied for 6 months to 2 years. There is

> no history or evidence of water intrusion, but mold spore levels are

> higher than in homes with HVAC running. The homes were unheated in

> winter, no air conditioning. Water systems disconnected. Homes

> entered once per month to cut grass in the summer.

>

> Has anyone else seen similar findings?

>

> Bob

>

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September 9, 2005

Hey Bob,

Before I can give you my two cents on the scenarios below, I first have to ask some questions.

Sharon, group.Closed Building #1Here is a an example of one senario. A school has been closed up since June. No AC, no other activities. The school wants the air tested before school starts.

Why does this school want their air quality tested?

Have there been reports of ill health that are thought to be possibly caused from some sort of exposure in this building?

There is no history of water leaks. No elevated moisture levels. Located in area of severe drougth for the past 6 months.The air testing shows total spore levels 50% less than outside air. However, Penicillium is not as low (proportionally) as the other genera.

Why do you think that is? What would cause the increase in the penicillium?

Research (Soloman and Raponen) have shown that Penicillium typically is higher indoors than outdoors during winter cold months.Are these levels indicative of a problem? Probably not, but reference material is what I am looking for.

Are you combining information of spore counts and such with reported symptoms of occupants/workers within the building?

Closed Building #2A home was abandon by its previous owner over 18 months ago. The home is now 2 years old. During this time no heat or AC or water use. No history of water leaks. No visible mold. No elevated moisture levels. Located in area of severe drougth for the past 6 months.Again, The air testing shows total spore levels 50% less than outside air. However, Penicillium is not as low (proportionally) as the other genera.Penicillium is a mold species that once establish can grow in as low as 20% RH. You can also see the unusual nature of Penicillium by its growth in refrigerators.

I don't understand. Are you making a case for elevated penicillium is typical or are you trying to understand whether elevated penicillium is a health threat that needs to be addressed?

I am not aware of any targeted research on Pencillium in homes and why it does not behave like other mold species.

I would contact the aspergillus man in the UK. I beleive he is connected to the University of Manchester that has done much research on fungal related illnesses. He probably would know a thing or two about penicillium. If not, I am sure he would know where to direct you. aspergillus@... What I can tell you from an anecdotal aspect is that the mold victims we deal with who appear to have the most severe illnesses have typically been exposed to an environment that has elevated levels of a combination of Stachy, Aspergillus and Penicillum. (Of course, I can only attest anecdotally because the CDC and NIOSH is not doing a damn thing to track these self reported or physician reported symptoms that we see everyday. We have asked numerous times that a tracking system be set up for this. The response we get is much like the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz where he points to many other directions to take at the same time).

Hence, my question.BOB

Sharon

September 9, 2005

Jim,

Thanks for the info on " closed cottage syndrome. " I remember that

when I was a kid. The building dynamics during storage are quite

interesting but not well studied.

What I am looking for is some data on the mold genera that proliferate.

My data show mostly clado.

any data you have. ?

BOB

September 9, 2005

Bob,

Hot humid days, cool nights: mildew growth due to temperature cycling is common.

I have seen ceilings in completely open gazeboes and porches covered with mildew due to radiational cooling. (I measured the temperature of my dew-covered car shortly after the sun set on a very clear evening; the sky-facing surfaces were 8-10 degrees F less than ambient, and at the dew point.)

Mildew in dry crawl spaces is also due to ventilation with humid air and temperature cycling.(Most recently, entered a musty, well-ventilated crawl space that had been completely sealed the previous year at the floor and walls with heavy plastic; there were puddles all over the floor and the insulation was soaked.)

In refrigerators, mold can grow on the surface of jellies and other very low Aw foods because of temperature cycling as well. Moisture condenses on the inside surface of the tops of the containers and dilutes the food residues; the water also drips down onto the surface, again diluting the nutrients and raising the Aw, allowing for mold growth. This is particularly obvious in jelly that has been left out for a while because the vapor pressure of the water in the warm jelly is higher than when cold; moisture condenses on the cap when the jar is replaced in the frig. Mold never grows in the bulk of the substrate.

BTW, I checked Flannigan's "Microorganisms in the Home and Indoor Work Environments" and there are no Penicillium species in the "extremely xerophilic category (minimum Aw less than .75), so it appears unlikely that any grow at 20% RH. Do you have a reference?

Jeff May

May Indoor Air Investigations LLC

www.mayindoorair.com

www.myhouseiskillingme.com

--Reply to: Jeff@...

-------------- Original message -------------- > Sharon, group. > > Closed Building #1 > Here is a an example of one senario. A school has been closed up > since June. No AC, no other activities. The school wants the air > tested before school starts. There is no history of water leaks. > No elevated moisture levels. Located in area of severe drougth for the > past 6 months. > > The air testing shows total spore levels 50% less than outside air. > However, Penicillium is not as low (proportionally) as the other > genera. > > Research (Soloman and Raponen) have shown that Penicillium typically is > higher indoors than outdoors during winter cold months. > > Are these levels indicative of a problem? Probably not, but reference > material is what I am looking for. > > Closed Building #2 > > A home was abandon by its previous owner over 18 months ago. The home > is now 2 years old. During this time no heat or AC or water use. > No history of water leaks. No visible mold. No elevated moisture > levels. Located in area of severe drougth for the past 6 months. > > > Again, The air testing shows total spore levels 50% less than outside > air. However, Penicillium is not as low (proportionally) as the other > genera. > > Penicillium is a mold species that once establish can grow in as low as > 20% RH. You can also see the unusual nature of Penicillium by its > growth in refrigerators. > > I am not aware of any targeted research on Pencillium in homes and why > it does not behave like other mold species. > > > Hence, my question. > > BOB >

September 11, 2005

Bob

Sorry, not but I wish I did since so many of my relatives have cottages and

experience breathing problems each spring. Being a relative, however, I know

nothing. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Jim

Re: Mold Spore Level of Long term Closed buildings

> Jim,

>

> Thanks for the info on " closed cottage syndrome. " I remember that

> when I was a kid. The building dynamics during storage are quite

> interesting but not well studied.

>

> What I am looking for is some data on the mold genera that proliferate.

> My data show mostly clado.

>

> any data you have. ?

>

> BOB