RE: Ceramic Tile on Slab - its the mastic

December 30, 2004

- It would seem that tile in a bathroom is likely to get wet over and

over in normal use. If there is not an odor problem, how about just

cleaning it thoroughly and sealing it correctly?

Sherryl Schultz

sschultz8@...

Searchlight Safety

> I'm working on a job where the basement got pretty wet and moisture

> meters show the tile in the basement bathroom (on the slab) to be wet

> underneath.

>

> Any thoughts about whether or not to remove the tile (mold on mastic)?

>

> S. Abrams, CIH

> ARS Environmental Health, Inc.

December 31, 2004

show the tile in the basement bathroom

VCT, or Ceramic, or other?

December 31, 2004

I disagree with the statement that tile adhesive is a perfect food source for mold.

I have seen plenty of tile floors (VAT and VCT) in older basements that had been exposed to repeated flooding. The tiles shrink, mastic can ooze up, and eventually the tiles become unglued (delaminate), but I have not seen visible mold colonies on the mastic, itself (although it may be possible). Many of the mastics used are asphaltic, the same base material used to waterproof the exterior of the foundation.

Certainly any trapped water can and will grow bacteria which can produce an odor. Unless the tiles are coming loose, I do not think they need to be removed from the slab. Any bacterial endotoxins, if that is a concern, should be contained under the tile.

I often recommend that tiles (preferably ceramic) be installed in basements with chronic wet slab issues when the owners insist upon using them as a living space. The tiles act as a capillary break.

I advise against using sheet vinyl or wood flooring, and, of course, carpeting of any kind.

Just my two cents worth,

Steve Temes

Vinyl tile needs to be removed. Mastic is a perfect food source for mold and will sustain itself indefintely. Especially on a slab where moisture is located.

Sherryl Schultz wrote:

- It would seem that tile in a bathroom is likely to get wet over and

over in normal use. If there is not an odor problem, how about just

cleaning it thoroughly and sealing it correctly?

Sherryl Schultz

sschultz8@...

Searchlight Safety

>I'm working on a job where the basement got pretty wet and moisture

>meters show the tile in the basement bathroom (on the slab) to be wet

>underneath.

>

>Any thoughts about whether or not to remove the tile (mold on mastic)?

>

> S. Abrams, CIH

>ARS Environmental Health, Inc.

December 31, 2004

I have seen mold growth under ceramic tile which causes odors. Also,

bacteria can also eat the leveling compound or the adhesive causing

odors. These are rarities however.

I would try cleaning first.

Tony

..................................................

" Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

Executive Director of Technical Services

QEPI

1611 South lin Road

Indianapolis, IN 46239

Office: Ext 114

Fax:

Cell:

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Re: Ceramic Tile on Slab - its the mastic

- It would seem that tile in a bathroom is likely to get wet over

and

over in normal use. If there is not an odor problem, how about just

cleaning it thoroughly and sealing it correctly?

Sherryl Schultz

sschultz8@...

Searchlight Safety

> I'm working on a job where the basement got pretty wet and moisture

> meters show the tile in the basement bathroom (on the slab) to be wet

> underneath.

>

> Any thoughts about whether or not to remove the tile (mold on mastic)?

>

> S. Abrams, CIH

> ARS Environmental Health, Inc.

FAIR USE NOTICE:

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http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use

copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go

beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

December 31, 2004

Let me intervene, please, so those less familiar with tile products can better understand the issues.

1. Ceramic tile is not the same as Vinyl Asbestos Tile (VAT) (9" by 9"), newer "vinyl" tile (example Armstrong 12" by 12"), or asphaltic tile (generally greater than 1' by 1') or linoleum (sheets).

2. I have never known VAT with asphaltic/bitumen-based mastic (black stuff) grow mold or have problems (other than delamination). Probably due to the PNAHs in the mastic. Asbestos does not break down very well by mold but there is an iron leaching strain of fungi that will degrade it in open tailings of mines. I've seen over 1,000,000 SF of water damaged VAT since 1986.

3. I have never known asphaltic tile to grow mold or have problems (other than delamination). Primarily for the same reasons as above. These sometimes contain asbestos and have been used for years in post offices. I haven't seen that much water damaged, but what I have has held up well.

4. I have known on a half a dozen instances where ceramic tile had a problem: a) bacteria in the leveling compound or bacteria or mold in the adhesive (they sometimes throw in casein or other nitrogen based materials into the adhesives which can lend themselves to amine decomposition products), or c) another "edible" sublayer beneath it (such as a linoleum with a paper backing). [i presented on a couple of these: Havics, Tony: "Bacteria in Indoor Environmental Quality (IEQ) Studies: Are they Relevant?", presented at the American Industrial Hygiene Conference & Exposition, June 7, 2001, New Orleans, LA.]

5. I have known too many instances where linoleum (both asbestos containing and non-asbestos containing) will rot. It will occur in the paper-based (cellulose) backing material beneath the linoleum. This was 5-60% cellulose when asbetos was used in the backing and is now about 100% cellulose (well processed so very edible for fungi).

I have also presented on a case (same citation above) where a bacteria grew on the backside of vinyl wallcovering on the adhesive at a school (nice red color just like the wall was bleeding).

6. So it comes down to building media, adhesive media, and trapping of moisture.

7. As a final note, if you replace the ceramic tile with vinyl sheeting or vinyl tile, they may delaminate if too much water vapor is being emitted through/from the concrete floor.

Tony

..................................................

"Tony" Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

Executive Director of Technical Services

QEPI

1611 South lin Road

Indianapolis, IN 46239

Office: Ext 114

Fax:

Cell:

This message is from QEPI. This message and any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the sender, which are not to be attributed to QEPI and may not be copied or distributed without this statement.

-----Original Message-----From: AirwaysEnv@... Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 12:41 PMTo: iequality Subject: Re: Ceramic Tile on Slab - its the masticI disagree with the statement that tile adhesive is a perfect food source for mold.I have seen plenty of tile floors (VAT and VCT) in older basements that had been exposed to repeated flooding. The tiles shrink, mastic can ooze up, and eventually the tiles become unglued (delaminate), but I have not seen visible mold colonies on the mastic, itself (although it may be possible). Many of the mastics used are asphaltic, the same base material used to waterproof the exterior of the foundation.Certainly any trapped water can and will grow bacteria which can produce an odor. Unless the tiles are coming loose, I do not think they need to be removed from the slab. Any bacterial endotoxins, if that is a concern, should be contained under the tile.I often recommend that tiles (preferably ceramic) be installed in basements with chronic wet slab issues when the owners insist upon using them as a living space. The tiles act as a capillary break.I advise against using sheet vinyl or wood flooring, and, of course, carpeting of any kind.Just my two cents worth,Steve Temes

Vinyl tile needs to be removed. Mastic is a perfect food source for mold and will sustain itself indefintely. Especially on a slab where moisture is located. Sherryl Schultz wrote:

- It would seem that tile in a bathroom is likely to get wet over and over in normal use. If there is not an odor problem, how about just cleaning it thoroughly and sealing it correctly?Sherryl Schultzsschultz8@...Searchlight Safety>I'm working on a job where the basement got pretty wet and moisture>meters show the tile in the basement bathroom (on the slab) to be wet>underneath.>>Any thoughts about whether or not to remove the tile (mold on mastic)?>>> S. Abrams, CIH>ARS Environmental Health, Inc.FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

December 31, 2004

Many

self levelling floor screeds are made of protein , I believe ground fish

meal. May be good sustenance for mold?

Jeff Charlton

In London

00 44 (0)8700 789 999

-----Original

Message-----

From: AirwaysEnv@...

Sent: 31 December 2004 19:41

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Ceramic

Tile on Slab - its the mastic

I

disagree with the statement that tile adhesive is a perfect food source for

mold.

I have seen plenty of tile floors (VAT and VCT) in older basements that had

been exposed to repeated flooding. The tiles shrink, mastic can ooze up,

and eventually the tiles become unglued (delaminate), but I have not seen

visible mold colonies on the mastic, itself (although it may be possible).

Many of the mastics used are asphaltic, the same base material used to

waterproof the exterior of the foundation.

Certainly any trapped water can and will grow bacteria which can produce an

odor. Unless the tiles are coming loose, I do not think they need to be

removed from the slab. Any bacterial endotoxins, if that is a concern,

should be contained under the tile.

I often recommend that tiles (preferably ceramic) be installed in basements

with chronic wet slab issues when the owners insist upon using them as a living

space. The tiles act as a capillary break.

I advise against using sheet vinyl or wood flooring, and, of course, carpeting

of any kind.

Just my two cents worth,

Steve Temes

In a message dated 12/31/2004 1:13:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,

dschworn@... writes:

Vinyl tile needs to be removed. Mastic is a perfect

food source for mold and will sustain itself indefintely. Especially on a

slab where moisture is located.

Sherryl Schultz

wrote:

- It would seem that tile in a bathroom is likely to get wet over and

over in normal use. If there is not an odor problem, how about just

cleaning it thoroughly and sealing it correctly?

Sherryl Schultz

sschultz8@...

Searchlight Safety

>I'm working on a job where the basement got pretty wet and moisture

>meters show the tile in the basement bathroom (on the slab) to be wet

>underneath.

>

>Any thoughts about whether or not to remove the tile (mold on mastic)?

>

> S. Abrams, CIH

>ARS Environmental Health, Inc.

FAIR

USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of

which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We

are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of

environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and

social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any

such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright

Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site

is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For

more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own

that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

January 3, 2005

,

Do the moisture meters show the floor beneath the tile to be more wet than

other areas of the floor in the basement? Concrete on soil (with no vapor

barrier in between) will generally test " wet " with a non-invasive moisture

meter. So it becomes a question of " is it more wet than normal? "

Curtis Redington, RS

Environmental Quality Specialist

City of Wichita Dept. of Environmental Health

Wichita, KS USA

Ceramic Tile on Slab - its the mastic

I'm working on a job where the basement got pretty wet and moisture

meters show the tile in the basement bathroom (on the slab) to be wet

underneath.

Any thoughts about whether or not to remove the tile (mold on mastic)?

S. Abrams, CIH

ARS Environmental Health, Inc.

FAIR USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been

specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material

available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental,

political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice

issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such

copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law.

In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is

distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.

For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your

own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright

owner.

January 4, 2005

If it is to be removed, the ceramic tile

should be considered to contain lead unless tested. Most, if not all, ceramic tiles have some

lead in the glaze. I’ve never

tested one that didn’t.

Mark Doughty

Re: Ceramic