Guest guest Posted February 17, 2006 Report Share Posted February 17, 2006 So MB12 is something that can be bought over the counter but needs to be compounded? Or does it require a doctor's prescription? Is the amount administered in a megavitamin doseage? How much is typically given and how does that compare with the rda's? Why is this form given over the usual form which has an rx? Thanks for your help! --- Stan Kurtz wrote: > Yes, I've come across this from time to time. It's > a pretty simple case. > > 1. B12 is cynocobalamin. There is an RX for nasal > spray cynocobalamin called Nascobal. > Why is it an RX? Because oral and sublingual do not > work for a significant set of folks. > > MB12 is methylcobalamin. There is no RX for nasal > spray methylcobalamin, that's why we > have it compounded. Why don't we use subligual or > oral? The same reason as above. > > 2. MB12 has peer-reviewed published data that shows > it helps with chronic health > oxidative stress issues including Autism and heavy > metals poisoning (articles below). > > Addtionally, there literally thousands of families > who are using the shots and now > hundreds of families (actually thousands as well I > believe, just less thousands compared to > the spray since we just started the spray last > year...) using the spray. > > That should do it. > > - Stan > > ------------------- > > Am J Clin Nutr. 2004 Dec;80(6):1611-7. Related > Articles, Links > > Metabolic biomarkers of increased oxidative stress > and impaired methylation capacity in > children with autism. > > SJ, Cutler P, Melnyk S, Jernigan S, Janak L, > Gaylor DW, Neubrander JA. > > Department of Pediatrics, University of Arkansas for > Medical Sciences, and the Arkansas > Children's Hospital Research Institute, Little Rock, > AR 72202, USA. jamesjill@... > > BACKGROUND: Autism is a complex neurodevelopmental > disorder that usually presents in > early childhood and that is thought to be influenced > by genetic and environmental factors. > Although abnormal metabolism of methionine and > homocysteine has been associated with > other neurologic diseases, these pathways have not > been evaluated in persons with > autism. OBJECTIVE: The purpose of this study was to > evaluate plasma concentrations of > metabolites in the methionine transmethylation and > transsulfuration pathways in children > diagnosed with autism. DESIGN: Plasma concentrations > of methionine, S- > adenosylmethionine (SAM), S-adenosylhomocysteine > (SAH), adenosine, homocysteine, > cystathionine, cysteine, and oxidized and reduced > glutathione were measured in 20 > children with autism and in 33 control children. On > the basis of the abnormal metabolic > profile, a targeted nutritional intervention trial > with folinic acid, betaine, and > methylcobalamin was initiated in a subset of the > autistic children. RESULTS: Relative to the > control children, the children with autism had > significantly lower baseline plasma > concentrations of methionine, SAM, homocysteine, > cystathionine, cysteine, and total > glutathione and significantly higher concentrations > of SAH, adenosine, and oxidized > glutathione. This metabolic profile is consistent > with impaired capacity for methylation > (significantly lower ratio of SAM to SAH) and > increased oxidative stress (significantly lower > redox ratio of reduced glutathione to oxidized > glutathione) in children with autism. The > intervention trial was effective in normalizing the > metabolic imbalance in the autistic > children. CONCLUSIONS: An increased vulnerability to > oxidative stress and a decreased > capacity for methylation may contribute to the > development and clinical manifestation of > autism. > > PMID: 15585776 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > > ----- > > Also, Dr. Dick Deth's testimony is available on Dr. > Neubrander's site at this link. > > http://www.reform.house.gov/UploadedFiles/Testimony%20%20Deth.pdf > > > > > > > Stan, > > I have two questions. My insurance is hesitating > about paying for an > > OTC vitamin (mB12 prescription). I am sure you can > offer a more > > articulate explanation as to why this needs to be > compounded and how > > methyl B12 is different than regular B12 > supplements. > > > > Second, I know this list is for those doing the > nasal spray, but my > > son refuses the nasal spray completely so I had to > switch to shots. > > To save money, I am looking at filling syringes > myself from a vial. > > To do this, the pharmacy says they have to put the > preservative benzyl > > alcohol into the mB12 solution. Is this safe for > my kid? > > > > Thanks for your help. > > > > > > > > > Barb Katsaros barbkatsaros@... __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 > 1. B12 is cynocobalamin. There is an RX for nasal spray cynocobalamin called Nascobal. > Why is it an RX? Because oral and sublingual do not work for a significant set of folks. Is there an Rx for Mb12 injections that are not compounded or are all injections for any supp/med compounded? Thanks for the explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 > > MB12 is methylcobalamin. There is no RX for nasal spray methylcobalamin, that's why we > have it compounded. Can MB12 be obtained over the counter in any form? If not, can you offer a layperson's brief explanation of why I want methy version instead of what's available over the counter? Again, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 RDA is not designed for children with biological issues. If you look at chron's disease and the amount of cbl that is needed... it's much greater than RDA. Additionally I have not seen an RDA for MB12. Maybe you can find one. But basically we are talking about 1mg of mb12 per day on average. Not a big number. In the typical health store you'll find 1mg sublingual doses, some even higher. Today, there is no MB12 spray over the counter. There is a Cynocobalamin spray RX out there, but not an MB12 yet. I'm sure there will be. For some reason, the FDA wants nasal spray vitamins to be an RX, so I don't expect to see it OTC for some time. In summary: 1. Sublingual and oral do not work for reasons I have discussed several times in the last week... if you haven't read this week's posts, I strongly suggest it. 2. MB12 nasal spray is only available from compound pharmacies at this point. Maybe someday, similar to cynocobalamin spray it will be a regular RX... but the problem there is we don't like preservatives so we'll probably continue to have it compounded. 3. MB12 nasal spray works... if you don't like the spray, try the shots... they work too. You could also try sublingual and oral but I think it's a waste of time for our kids. Try the spray or the shots... if you don't like them... move on. No one here is making money offer you these suggestions. We just know it helps a great deal of children on the spectrum or folks with chronic illness. Watch our videos if you are still unsure. www.recoveryvideos.com (click on the methylcobalamin videos). - Stan > > > > > > Stan, > > > I have two questions. My insurance is hesitating > > about paying for an > > > OTC vitamin (mB12 prescription). I am sure you can > > offer a more > > > articulate explanation as to why this needs to be > > compounded and how > > > methyl B12 is different than regular B12 > > supplements. > > > > > > Second, I know this list is for those doing the > > nasal spray, but my > > > son refuses the nasal spray completely so I had to > > switch to shots. > > > To save money, I am looking at filling syringes > > myself from a vial. > > > To do this, the pharmacy says they have to put the > > preservative benzyl > > > alcohol into the mB12 solution. Is this safe for > > my kid? > > > > > > Thanks for your help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barb Katsaros > barbkatsaros@... > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Any shot or spray for a vitamin is an RX. MB12 made without a preservative is only made by compound pharmacies. I'm beginning to think you have a bias against compounding? It's really the most natural and safe way to make these vitamins. And the nasal spray is only $45 dollars (plus shipping) for a 2 months supply (15 or 20 ml). - Stan > > > 1. B12 is cynocobalamin. There is an RX for nasal spray > cynocobalamin called Nascobal. > > Why is it an RX? Because oral and sublingual do not work for a > significant set of folks. > > > Is there an Rx for Mb12 injections that are not compounded or are all > injections for any supp/med compounded? > > Thanks for the explanation. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Again, MB12 is available in sublingual form in both liquid and tablets at many vitamins shops or online. That should tell you that it is relatively safe. The problem is, sublingual and oral do not work for most folks because of gut and metabolic impairments that prevent obsorbtion of b12 throught the mouth or the intestines. Most folks can't tell they have this impairment until you do testing or you do a side by side trial of subligual vs. the nasal spray or sub-q shots. If you read the " files " section of this group and look for a file called Nasal Spray Posts you'll be able to quickly get up to speed on some of the wonderful things that MB12 can do for you or your impaired child. - Stan > > > > > > MB12 is methylcobalamin. There is no RX for nasal spray > methylcobalamin, that's why we > > have it compounded. > > > Can MB12 be obtained over the counter in any form? > > If not, can you offer a layperson's brief explanation of why I want > methy version instead of what's available over the counter? > Again, thanks. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 What are the tests which tell you that you would need b12 in nasal or shot form? Barb --- Stan Kurtz wrote: > Again, MB12 is available in sublingual form in both > liquid and tablets at many vitamins > shops or online. That should tell you that it is > relatively safe. > > The problem is, sublingual and oral do not work for > most folks because of gut and > metabolic impairments that prevent obsorbtion of b12 > throught the mouth or the > intestines. Most folks can't tell they have this > impairment until you do testing or you do a > side by side trial of subligual vs. the nasal spray > or sub-q shots. > > If you read the " files " section of this group and > look for a file called Nasal Spray Posts > you'll be able to quickly get up to speed on some of > the wonderful things that MB12 can > do for you or your impaired child. > > - Stan > > > > > > > > > > > > MB12 is methylcobalamin. There is no RX for > nasal spray > > methylcobalamin, that's why we > > > have it compounded. > > > > > > Can MB12 be obtained over the counter in any form? > > > > If not, can you offer a layperson's brief > explanation of why I want > > methy version instead of what's available over the > counter? > > Again, thanks. > > > > > > > > Barb Katsaros barbkatsaros@... __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 For example. A 5 mg subligual version http://www.wonderlabs.com/itemleft.php?itemnum=3292 & ad=goob12met Here is a 1mg liquid drops sublingual version http://www.vrp.com/theproducts.asp?products=1180 If you try them on your child, you'll find that in most cases... it just won't work. If you do a search for methylcobalamin on the web, you'll see many subligual versions out there. I've tried them and I have worked with a lab who did testing on MB12 levels and found that subligual improves levels about 5% at best and these were in nerotypical adults. My suggestion... if you are still not sure... buy some subligual yourself and then buy the spray and tell us what you observe. - Stan > > > > > > MB12 is methylcobalamin. There is no RX for nasal spray > methylcobalamin, that's why we > > have it compounded. > > > Can MB12 be obtained over the counter in any form? > > If not, can you offer a layperson's brief explanation of why I want > methy version instead of what's available over the counter? > Again, thanks. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Stan, We are using the shots for my ASD son but I have the rest of us on sublingal and have been thinking of getting the TD-MB-12 (on the temples) instead just for the non ASD members. Someone told me Dr. Neubrander is recommending TD on the non-days of the shot. What are your thoughts and have you heard of how the TD works?? BTW... Your videos of your son's recovery are really great! You did an awesome job with the editing and the voice overs. I think they're the best I've seen actually. - > >Date: Sat Feb 18 12:13:52 CST 2006 >To: mb12 valtrex >Subject: Re: Insurance and MB12 >RDA is not designed for children with biological issues. If you look at chron's disease and >the amount of cbl that is needed... it's much greater than RDA. > >Additionally I have not seen an RDA for MB12. Maybe you can find one. But basically we >are talking about 1mg of mb12 per day on average. Not a big number. In the typical >health store you'll find 1mg sublingual doses, some even higher. > >Today, there is no MB12 spray over the counter. There is a Cynocobalamin spray RX out >there, but not an MB12 yet. I'm sure there will be. > >For some reason, the FDA wants nasal spray vitamins to be an RX, so I don't expect to see >it OTC for some time. > >In summary: > >1. Sublingual and oral do not work for reasons I have discussed several times in the last >week... if you haven't read this week's posts, I strongly suggest it. > >2. MB12 nasal spray is only available from compound pharmacies at this point. Maybe >someday, similar to cynocobalamin spray it will be a regular RX... but the problem there is >we don't like preservatives so we'll probably continue to have it compounded. > >3. MB12 nasal spray works... if you don't like the spray, try the shots... they work too. >You could also try sublingual and oral but I think it's a waste of time for our kids. Try the >spray or the shots... if you don't like them... move on. No one here is making money offer >you these suggestions. We just know it helps a great deal of children on the spectrum or >folks with chronic illness. > >Watch our videos if you are still unsure. > >www.recoveryvideos.com (click on the methylcobalamin videos). > >- Stan > > > >> > > >> > > Stan, >> > > I have two questions. My insurance is hesitating >> > about paying for an >> > > OTC vitamin (mB12 prescription). I am sure you can >> > offer a more >> > > articulate explanation as to why this needs to be >> > compounded and how >> > > methyl B12 is different than regular B12 >> > supplements. >> > > >> > > Second, I know this list is for those doing the >> > nasal spray, but my >> > > son refuses the nasal spray completely so I had to >> > switch to shots. >> > > To save money, I am looking at filling syringes >> > myself from a vial. >> > > To do this, the pharmacy says they have to put the >> > preservative benzyl >> > > alcohol into the mB12 solution. Is this safe for >> > my kid? >> > > >> > > Thanks for your help. >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> Barb Katsaros >> barbkatsaros@... >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Barb, before we get ahead of ourselves, please tell us more about your child. - Stan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MB12 is methylcobalamin. There is no RX for > > nasal spray > > > methylcobalamin, that's why we > > > > have it compounded. > > > > > > > > > Can MB12 be obtained over the counter in any form? > > > > > > If not, can you offer a layperson's brief > > explanation of why I want > > > methy version instead of what's available over the > > counter? > > > Again, thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barb Katsaros > barbkatsaros@... > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Thanks , I'm not sure why someone would use TD-MB12 on the temples. What is the goal in this case? I do not know of anything in the temple tissue that make a different compared to other tissue. MB12 does can help with headaches, so if someone rubbed it on the temples and found relief, it may not been for the reason they are thinking. Both CB injections and MB12 sub-q and Nasal Spray are shown to help headaches. I have some video on that on www.recoveryvideos.com I believe I was the first person to publish MB12 can work on chronic headaches and migranes... but it didn't have anything to do with TD delivery. I've never heard of Dr. Neubrander suggesting TD-MB12. He is working on a spray and shot study right now. I am unaware of any TD-MB12 dosing that he is doing. Rick Neubrander reads our posts here and he may decide to chime in. I DO know of a handful of doctors who play with TD-MB12. I don't see a value in it over shots or spray... meaning I can certainly find studies that show nasal cobalamin is as effective as intravenous (yes IV) but I have never seen a study that shows TD is better than sub-q or intranasal. The reason we use TD for metals detox is because we are avoiding the gut and and it may not be safe to use a detox agent as a shots or a spray. I am not aware of a value in using transdermal paste for a delivery method for MB12, but I'm willing to listen if someone has some ideas. - Stan > >> > > > >> > > Stan, > >> > > I have two questions. My insurance is hesitating > >> > about paying for an > >> > > OTC vitamin (mB12 prescription). I am sure you can > >> > offer a more > >> > > articulate explanation as to why this needs to be > >> > compounded and how > >> > > methyl B12 is different than regular B12 > >> > supplements. > >> > > > >> > > Second, I know this list is for those doing the > >> > nasal spray, but my > >> > > son refuses the nasal spray completely so I had to > >> > switch to shots. > >> > > To save money, I am looking at filling syringes > >> > myself from a vial. > >> > > To do this, the pharmacy says they have to put the > >> > preservative benzyl > >> > > alcohol into the mB12 solution. Is this safe for > >> > my kid? > >> > > > >> > > Thanks for your help. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> Barb Katsaros > >> barbkatsaros@ > >> > >> __________________________________________________ > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 We did 2 years with Pfeiffer protocol and did not have significant improvements, esp. with storage and retrieval and application of information/knowledge. Then at 11, we went to Dr. Goldberg. We have seen some improvements, but learning disabilities persist as a big problem. He also appears rather hyper--moves legs and sometimes hands a lot. Very oral--bites on nails, puts things in mouth, but never chokes. Very high functioning in some ways and very low in others. He is almost 15 now. We have been on Dr. Goldberg's protocol for 3 1/2 years now with some improvements, but both Dr. G and I agree that we are missing something in his treatment. We cannot say that he is neurotypical by a longshot. He is on famvir, nizoral, zoloft, tennex, wellbutrin (small amt.), a multivitamin (One a Day for men), a calcium supplement and kyodophilus Bid. He is also on keflex for high aso's. Socially not bad, but definitely not up to age level. 5'0 and finally up to 90 lbs. Wt has been a struggle. No casein, but does have goat milk. Follows nids diet, basically. Anything else you would like to know? Your input is appreciated. Thanks. BArb --- Stan Kurtz wrote: > Barb, before we get ahead of ourselves, please tell > us more about your child. > > - Stan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MB12 is methylcobalamin. There is no RX for > > > nasal spray > > > > methylcobalamin, that's why we > > > > > have it compounded. > > > > > > > > > > > > Can MB12 be obtained over the counter in any > form? > > > > > > > > If not, can you offer a layperson's brief > > > explanation of why I want > > > > methy version instead of what's available over > the > > > counter? > > > > Again, thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barb Katsaros > > barbkatsaros@... > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2006 Report Share Posted February 18, 2006 Thanks for the info Stan, I was wary of it myself as I am when I hear anything second hand. Especially when I heard Dr. Neubrander was recommending it because I hadn't read that anywhere. So thanks for clearing that up. ALL of our DAN appointments, testing and supplements are all out of pocket so working on the rest of the family getting shots or spray isn't possible right now. I know the spray is not that expensive but the Drs. appointments with it is just over the top for us financially at the moment. - > >Date: Sat Feb 18 13:50:51 CST 2006 >To: mb12 valtrex >Subject: Re: Insurance and MB12 >Thanks , > >I'm not sure why someone would use TD-MB12 on the temples. What is the goal in this >case? I do not know of anything in the temple tissue that make a different compared to >other tissue. MB12 does can help with headaches, so if someone rubbed it on the temples >and found relief, it may not been for the reason they are thinking. Both CB injections and >MB12 sub-q and Nasal Spray are shown to help headaches. I have some video on that on >www.recoveryvideos.com > >I believe I was the first person to publish MB12 can work on chronic headaches and >migranes... but it didn't have anything to do with TD delivery. > >I've never heard of Dr. Neubrander suggesting TD-MB12. He is working on a spray and >shot study right now. I am unaware of any TD-MB12 dosing that he is doing. Rick >Neubrander reads our posts here and he may decide to chime in. > >I DO know of a handful of doctors who play with TD-MB12. I don't see a value in it over >shots or spray... meaning I can certainly find studies that show nasal cobalamin is as >effective as intravenous (yes IV) but I have never seen a study that shows TD is better than >sub-q or intranasal. > >The reason we use TD for metals detox is because we are avoiding the gut and and it may >not be safe to use a detox agent as a shots or a spray. > >I am not aware of a value in using transdermal paste for a delivery method for MB12, but >I'm willing to listen if someone has some ideas. > >- Stan > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > Stan, >> >> > > I have two questions. My insurance is hesitating >> >> > about paying for an >> >> > > OTC vitamin (mB12 prescription). I am sure you can >> >> > offer a more >> >> > > articulate explanation as to why this needs to be >> >> > compounded and how >> >> > > methyl B12 is different than regular B12 >> >> > supplements. >> >> > > >> >> > > Second, I know this list is for those doing the >> >> > nasal spray, but my >> >> > > son refuses the nasal spray completely so I had to >> >> > switch to shots. >> >> > > To save money, I am looking at filling syringes >> >> > myself from a vial. >> >> > > To do this, the pharmacy says they have to put the >> >> > preservative benzyl >> >> > > alcohol into the mB12 solution. Is this safe for >> >> > my kid? >> >> > > >> >> > > Thanks for your help. >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Barb Katsaros >> >> barbkatsaros@ >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2006 Report Share Posted February 20, 2006 > > > >> > >> Stan, > >> We are using the shots for my ASD son but I have the rest of us on sublingal and > >have been thinking of getting the TD-MB-12 (on the temples) instead just for the non ASD > >members. Someone told me Dr. Neubrander is recommending TD on the non-days of the > >shot. What are your thoughts and have you heard of how the TD works?? > >> BTW... Your videos of your son's recovery are really great! You did an awesome job with > >the editing and the voice overs. I think they're the best I've seen actually. - The above information is not correct. We do not Rx TD MB12 on off days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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