Re: TERMS/ GER>ENG TERMS Opthalmology - Von Helmholtz

[Guest guest]

.. ..... dicht vor ihm liegt ein kleines ebenes Metallspiegelchen (Ich

benutze ein Oertling'sches Stahlspiegelchen) horizontal auf einer festen

Unterlage.

What should I call the 'Oertling'sches Stahlspiegelchen'. I take it

'Oertling' is a brand name. Is it simply a steel mirror? Oertling is not a

brand

name but the name of the inventor of the mirror

2. dem beobachteten Auge O wird ein Fixationspunkt E neben dem Ständer des

Schirms b vorbei in der Ferne angewiesen.

I have taken this to mean: a fixed point E next to the stay of the screen b

is transmitted to the observed eye in the distance.

I am just wondering how the 'vorbei' fits in here. Is my translation

sufficient?

I suggest: A fixation point E in the distance, at the end of a virtual line

passing the pole of the screen b, is assigned to the observed eye.

3. Das Gesichtszeichen E wird nun so gestellt, dass der Linsenreflex in der

Mitte der Pupille erscheint, und das Hornhautbildchen der kleineren

Lichtpunkte dicht daneben.

Is 'Gesichtszeichen' here just 'visual feature' and can I use 'light

points' for 'Lichtpunkte' or is there something better?

I suggest: The facial sign E is positioned in such a way that the lens reflex

appears in the middle of the pupil, and the corneal image of the smaller

light points appears closely adjacent to the reflex. [i am not sure what the

" Gesichtszeichen " is and if " facial sign " is a correct translation. I don't

think

that " visual feature " is correct; " feature " does not mean " Zeichen " , and a

feature cannot be positioned]

Good luck with this translation!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 31/01/2004 12:34:18 GMT Standard Time, shane@...

writes:

> 1. ..... dicht vor ihm liegt ein kleines ebenes Metallspiegelchen (Ich

> benutze ein Oertling'sches Stahlspiegelchen) horizontal auf einer festen

> Unterlage.

>

> What should I call the 'Oertling'sches Stahlspiegelchen'. I take it

> 'Oertling' is a brand name. Is it simply a steel mirror?

Shane,

Have you searched the Web?

> 2. dem beobachteten Auge O wird ein Fixationspunkt E neben dem Ständer des

> Schirms b vorbei in der Ferne angewiesen.

>

> I have taken this to mean: a fixed point E next to the stay of the screen b

> is transmitted to the observed eye in the distance.

> I am just wondering how the 'vorbei' fits in here. Is my translation

> sufficient?

A fixation point seems more appropriate (the subject is asked to fixate on a

point).

I would call it a support or pillar or stand (all these are used in optical

setups).

> 3. Das Gesichtszeichen E wird nun so gestellt, dass der Linsenreflex in

> der Mitte der Pupille erscheint, und das Hornhautbildchen der kleineren

> Lichtpunkte dicht daneben.

>

> ...can I use 'light points' for 'Lichtpunkte' or is there something

> better?

Definitely light points.

HTH,

Kinory MITI

[Guest guest]

Yes, " facial sign " is wrong. I think Ursula's assumption that

" Fixationspunkt " is the same as " Gesichtszeichen " is correct. I don't think

" visual sign " is

a good translation but I cannot think of anything better.

[Guest guest]

Hello from Sydney, Australia

I am working on an 1855 piece by Hermann von Helmholtz on the Accommodation of

the Eye. There are a few things I would like to ask about.

1. ..... dicht vor ihm liegt ein kleines ebenes Metallspiegelchen (Ich benutze

ein Oertling'sches Stahlspiegelchen) horizontal auf einer festen Unterlage.

What should I call the 'Oertling'sches Stahlspiegelchen'. I take it 'Oertling'

is a brand name. Is it simply a steel mirror?

2. dem beobachteten Auge O wird ein Fixationspunkt E neben dem Ständer des

Schirms b vorbei in der Ferne angewiesen.

I have taken this to mean: a fixed point E next to the stay of the screen b is

transmitted to the observed eye in the distance.

I am just wondering how the 'vorbei' fits in here. Is my translation

sufficient?

3. Das Gesichtszeichen E wird nun so gestellt, dass der Linsenreflex in der

Mitte der Pupille erscheint, und das Hornhautbildchen der kleineren Lichtpunkte

dicht daneben.

Is 'Gesichtszeichen' here just 'visual feature' and can I use 'light points'

for 'Lichtpunkte' or is there something better?

your comments appreciated

regards,

Shane London

Sydney, Australia

[Guest guest]

Hi Shane:

just a few ideas (without knowing much about the topic):

----- Original Message -----

I am working on an 1855 piece by Hermann von Helmholtz on the Accommodation

of the Eye.

(--> he is more known for his Resonanztheorie or Hoertheorie --> Hemholtz

theory)

1. ..... dicht vor ihm liegt ein kleines ebenes Metallspiegelchen (Ich

benutze ein Oertling'sches Stahlspiegelchen) horizontal auf einer festen

Unterlage.

--> The mirror is probably named after its inventor.

2. dem beobachteten Auge O wird ein Fixationspunkt E neben dem Ständer des

Schirms b vorbei in der Ferne angewiesen.

I have taken this to mean: a fixed point E next to the stay of the screen

b is transmitted to the observed eye in the distance.

I am just wondering how the 'vorbei' fits in here. Is my translation

sufficient?

---> I don;t think so. My interpretation is that the patient is advised to

look with eye O (the eye under examination) to a fixed point E in the

distance, with the this point being beside the stand of screen b (in other

words, the line between O and E is *passing* b - " vorbei an Schirm b " ).

3. Das Gesichtszeichen E wird nun so gestellt, dass der Linsenreflex in

der Mitte der Pupille erscheint, und das Hornhautbildchen der kleineren

Lichtpunkte dicht daneben.

Is 'Gesichtszeichen' here just 'visual feature' and can I use 'light

points' for 'Lichtpunkte' or is there something better?

---> My interpretation is than the Gesichtszeichen is identical with the

fixed point E above (may be the light of a candle?). E is moved so that it

is reflected in the middle of the pupil with the smaller light spots next

to this reflex but as images on the cornea.

Hope this helps!

Greetings from cold Ontario - brurried under lots of snow for 3 weeks now,

and still snowing...

Ursula

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

----

Ursula Vielkind, Ph.D., C.Tran.

German/English Translation in Biological Sciences

Dundas, Ontario, Canada L9H 3L8

Tel: +1 Fax: +1

uvielk@... / uvielkind@...

http://hpcaonline.com/urvi.html

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your reply, . This does appear to be a difficult translation.

I have found 'Gesichts-' in a technical dictionary in the sense of 'visual.' I

don't like the term 'facial sign' but 'visual sign' might be ok.

Yes. Your suggested translation makes sense. I seem to have misunderstood

'angewiesen'. I see that it can mean 'allocate' or 'assign' as you have

suggested. This would then give some sense to 'vorbei' which I was worried

about. You're right. A feature can't be positioned.

regards,

Shane London

Re: TERMS/ GER>ENG TERMS Opthalmology - Von Helmholtz

. ..... dicht vor ihm liegt ein kleines ebenes Metallspiegelchen (Ich

benutze ein Oertling'sches Stahlspiegelchen) horizontal auf einer festen

Unterlage.

What should I call the 'Oertling'sches Stahlspiegelchen'. I take it

'Oertling' is a brand name. Is it simply a steel mirror? Oertling is not a

brand

name but the name of the inventor of the mirror

2. dem beobachteten Auge O wird ein Fixationspunkt E neben dem Ständer des

Schirms b vorbei in der Ferne angewiesen.

I have taken this to mean: a fixed point E next to the stay of the screen b

is transmitted to the observed eye in the distance.

I am just wondering how the 'vorbei' fits in here. Is my translation

sufficient?

I suggest: A fixation point E in the distance, at the end of a virtual line

passing the pole of the screen b, is assigned to the observed eye.

3. Das Gesichtszeichen E wird nun so gestellt, dass der Linsenreflex in der

Mitte der Pupille erscheint, und das Hornhautbildchen der kleineren

Lichtpunkte dicht daneben.

Is 'Gesichtszeichen' here just 'visual feature' and can I use 'light

points' for 'Lichtpunkte' or is there something better?

I suggest: The facial sign E is positioned in such a way that the lens reflex

appears in the middle of the pupil, and the corneal image of the smaller

light points appears closely adjacent to the reflex. [i am not sure what the

" Gesichtszeichen " is and if " facial sign " is a correct translation. I don't

think

that " visual feature " is correct; " feature " does not mean " Zeichen " , and a

feature cannot be positioned]

Good luck with this translation!

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that, Ursula

Yes. alerted me to the fact that I was misunderstanding 'angewiesen'

Oertling Mirror is fine. But is it a steel mirrror ?

Re: TERMS/ GER>ENG TERMS Opthalmology - Von Helmholtz

Hi Shane:

just a few ideas (without knowing much about the topic):

----- Original Message -----

I am working on an 1855 piece by Hermann von Helmholtz on the Accommodation

of the Eye.

(--> he is more known for his Resonanztheorie or Hoertheorie --> Hemholtz

theory)

1. ..... dicht vor ihm liegt ein kleines ebenes Metallspiegelchen (Ich

benutze ein Oertling'sches Stahlspiegelchen) horizontal auf einer festen

Unterlage.

--> The mirror is probably named after its inventor.

2. dem beobachteten Auge O wird ein Fixationspunkt E neben dem Ständer des

Schirms b vorbei in der Ferne angewiesen.

I have taken this to mean: a fixed point E next to the stay of the screen

b is transmitted to the observed eye in the distance.

I am just wondering how the 'vorbei' fits in here. Is my translation

sufficient?

---> I don;t think so. My interpretation is that the patient is advised to

look with eye O (the eye under examination) to a fixed point E in the

distance, with the this point being beside the stand of screen b (in other

words, the line between O and E is *passing* b - " vorbei an Schirm b " ).

3. Das Gesichtszeichen E wird nun so gestellt, dass der Linsenreflex in

der Mitte der Pupille erscheint, und das Hornhautbildchen der kleineren

Lichtpunkte dicht daneben.

Is 'Gesichtszeichen' here just 'visual feature' and can I use 'light

points' for 'Lichtpunkte' or is there something better?

---> My interpretation is than the Gesichtszeichen is identical with the

fixed point E above (may be the light of a candle?). E is moved so that it

is reflected in the middle of the pupil with the smaller light spots next

to this reflex but as images on the cornea.

Hope this helps!

Greetings from cold Ontario - brurried under lots of snow for 3 weeks now,

and still snowing...

Ursula

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

----

Ursula Vielkind, Ph.D., C.Tran.

German/English Translation in Biological Sciences

Dundas, Ontario, Canada L9H 3L8

Tel: +1 Fax: +1

uvielk@... / uvielkind@...

http://hpcaonline.com/urvi.html

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi Shane,

in a book on the theory and science of color which I translated about a year ago

Helmholtz was a prominent feature ... here is another comment:

Ros@... wrote:

2. dem beobachteten Auge O wird ein Fixationspunkt E neben dem Ständer des

> Schirms b vorbei in der Ferne angewiesen.

>

> I suggest: A fixation point E in the distance, at the end of a virtual line

> passing the pole of the screen b, is assigned to the observed eye.

I might say:

" ... BYpassing and going beyond the pole ... "

> Good luck indeed!

Dee

>

>

>

--

Dee Klein Braig, MIL, MBAIB

http://www.deebraig.com

USA Contact:

Advanced Linguistic Services LLC * http://www.translate-best.com

Vox [Toll Free] + 1 * Fax + 1

EUROPEAN Office:

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Vox +33 4 75 38 74 69 * Fax +33 4 75 38 77 85

GÎTES - CHAMBRE D'HÔTES - BED & BREAKFAST

Auberge du Troubadour * http://www.aubergedutroubadour.com

Vox & Fax +33 4 75 38 77 85

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Dee

I do appreciate these suggestions. I expect I will have other queries over

the next week or so.

regards,

Shane

Re: TERMS/ GER>ENG TERMS Opthalmology - Von Helmholtz

Hi Shane,

in a book on the theory and science of color which I translated about a year

ago Helmholtz was a prominent feature ... here is another comment:

Ros@... wrote:

2. dem beobachteten Auge O wird ein Fixationspunkt E neben dem Ständer des

> Schirms b vorbei in der Ferne angewiesen.

>

> I suggest: A fixation point E in the distance, at the end of a virtual line

> passing the pole of the screen b, is assigned to the observed eye.

I might say:

" ... BYpassing and going beyond the pole ... "

> Good luck indeed!

Dee

[Guest guest]

Hi

Thanks for that. Yes I have searched the web without luck but I'm sure

Oertling steel mirror will do.

I will use 'light points' for 'Lichtpunkte'.

regards,

Shane London

Re: TERMS/ GER>ENG TERMS Opthalmology - Von Helmholtz

In a message dated 31/01/2004 12:34:18 GMT Standard Time, shane@...

writes:

> 1. ..... dicht vor ihm liegt ein kleines ebenes Metallspiegelchen (Ich

> benutze ein Oertling'sches Stahlspiegelchen) horizontal auf einer festen

> Unterlage.

>

> What should I call the 'Oertling'sches Stahlspiegelchen'. I take it

> 'Oertling' is a brand name. Is it simply a steel mirror?

Shane,

Have you searched the Web?

> 2. dem beobachteten Auge O wird ein Fixationspunkt E neben dem Ständer des

> Schirms b vorbei in der Ferne angewiesen.

>

> I have taken this to mean: a fixed point E next to the stay of the screen b

> is transmitted to the observed eye in the distance.

> I am just wondering how the 'vorbei' fits in here. Is my translation

> sufficient?

A fixation point seems more appropriate (the subject is asked to fixate on a

point).

I would call it a support or pillar or stand (all these are used in optical

setups).

> 3. Das Gesichtszeichen E wird nun so gestellt, dass der Linsenreflex in

> der Mitte der Pupille erscheint, und das Hornhautbildchen der kleineren

> Lichtpunkte dicht daneben.

>

> ...can I use 'light points' for 'Lichtpunkte' or is there something

> better?

Definitely light points.

HTH,

Kinory MITI

[Guest guest]

Shane,

I am sorry, I don't know. I am not sure what " Gesichtszeichen " means and why

it is used if it is, in fact, the same as the fixation point. Maybe the

" Zeichen " (image??) of the fixation point seen in the eye.

[Guest guest]

Hi

How about 'optical sign' for Gesichtszeichen ?

Re: TERMS/ GER>ENG TERMS Opthalmology - Von Helmholtz

Yes, " facial sign " is wrong. I think Ursula's assumption that

" Fixationspunkt " is the same as " Gesichtszeichen " is correct. I don't think

" visual sign " is

a good translation but I cannot think of anything better.

[Guest guest]

Hi Shane,

> How about 'optical sign' for Gesichtszeichen ?

How about " facial marker " (or " visual marker " ?).....???

FWIW.

Best regards from Adelaide,

la

[Guest guest]

Hi la

Yes. I like that suggestion. 'visual marker' I think is the idea. It's

the thing the subject is looking at. From the rest of the article I think it

is actually a lamp light or candle flame.

thanking you

regards,

Shane

Re: TERMS/ GER>ENG TERMS Opthalmology - Von Helmholtz

Hi Shane,

> How about 'optical sign' for Gesichtszeichen ?

How about " facial marker " (or " visual marker " ?).....???

FWIW.

Best regards from Adelaide,

la

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 01/02/2004 03:00:15 GMT Standard Time, Ros@...

writes:

> I am sorry, I don't know. I am not sure what " Gesichtszeichen " means and

> why

> it is used if it is, in fact, the same as the fixation point. Maybe the

> " Zeichen " (image??) of the fixation point seen in the eye.

The image of an object in an optical system is usually Abbildung, less

technically 'Bild'. Zeichen is never used for image in this context (if ever).

Kinory MITI

[Guest guest]

I agree. " Visual marker " is the best solution.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 01/02/2004 15:29:45 GMT Standard Time,

uvielkind@... writes:

> 2) you are looking at a text from 1855 - i.e. from a time when scientific

> language was still in its infancy and very 'creative' ;-)

This is a very strange statement. By 1855, modern science had been pursued in

France, Germany and Britain for 150 years, and the language of mathematics

and physics was highly developed and precise (though less so in chemistry). Of

course the terminology was different in many cases from the modern one, but

saying that it was in its 'infancy' and 'creative' (implying, presumably, that

it

was vague and imprecise) is quite untrue.

Kinory MITI (a former physics teacher)

[Guest guest]

Shane, I wouldn't worry about the Gesichtszeichen. It is clear from the

previous text that is means whatever is used for " E " - in 1855, most

certainly a candle :-))

As Dee pointed out,

1) Gesichtszeichen is not a term used in physics

2) you are looking at a text from 1855 - i.e. from a time when scientific

language was still in its infancy and very 'creative' ;-)

Ursula

----- Original Message -----

Hi la

Yes. I like that suggestion. 'visual marker' I think is the idea.

It's the thing the subject is looking at. From the rest of the article I

think it is actually a lamp light or candle flame.

[Guest guest]

Hi Shane,

Have you seen the following U. of Pennsylvania website?

It provides the electronic edition of Helmholtz's Treatise on Physiological

Optics (3 vol.) -- translated from the 3rd German edition and published by

The Optical Society of America in 1925 (closer to 19th century German, Dee).

Three versions of each entire volume are available.

The Adobe version (OCR text replacement) is searchable.

For a start, see the Table of contents of each volume, and the Index of

Subjects (vol. 3, pp. 704 ff.).

http://www.psych.upenn.edu/backuslab/helmholtz/download/downloadpage.html

Apparently, Oertling made several instruments for Helmholtz.

I did find one metal mirror (vol. 1, p. 259).

You might want to try and test some of your solutions, and possibly find

new ones. See " Mechanism of accommodation " , vol. 1, pp. 143 ff.

Regards,

annie r.

At 04:39 2004-02-01, you wrote:

>Hi la

>Yes. I like that suggestion. 'visual marker' I think is the

>idea. It's the thing the subject is looking at. From the rest of the

>article I think it is actually a lamp light or candle flame.

>

>thanking you

>

>regards,

>

>Shane

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Ursula

Yes. I am happy with 'visual marker'. It fits the context perfectly. Either

Helmholtz or someone before him coined the term 'Gesichtszeichen' It just

hasn't been preserved.

regards,

Shane

Re: TERMS/ GER>ENG TERMS Opthalmology - Von Helmholtz

Shane, I wouldn't worry about the Gesichtszeichen. It is clear from the

previous text that is means whatever is used for " E " - in 1855, most

certainly a candle :-))

As Dee pointed out,

1) Gesichtszeichen is not a term used in physics

2) you are looking at a text from 1855 - i.e. from a time when scientific

language was still in its infancy and very 'creative' ;-)

Ursula

----- Original Message -----

Hi la

Yes. I like that suggestion. 'visual marker' I think is the idea.

It's the thing the subject is looking at. From the rest of the article I

think it is actually a lamp light or candle flame.

[Guest guest]

Hi annie,

Great find! Do you mean you actually *downloaded* one? :-))) Volume 1

is a mere 333 MB - which would have taken me 22 hours to download (and

my ISP disconnects every 4 hours, or rather more often) at the whopping

(for Australia) speed of 50.6 Kbps... More than 2 km from a major town

and you are back down to 18.sth Kbps. :-( I hope you are one of the

privileged with broadband over there, Shane!

Best regards,

la, wishing she had broadband...

a.r. wrote:

> Three versions of each entire volume are available.

> The Adobe version (OCR text replacement) is searchable.

> For a start, see the Table of contents of each volume, and the Index of

> Subjects (vol. 3, pp. 704 ff.).

> http://www.psych.upenn.edu/backuslab/helmholtz/download/downloadpage.html

[Guest guest]

Hi la,

I confess I did... All three volumes. Couldn't resist.

Even with high speed Internet, it takes a bit of patience to download and

search.

(The translator's notes are fascinating, too.)

Best regards,

annie r.

At 00:57 2004-02-02, you wrote:

> Hi annie,

>

>Great find! Do you mean you actually *downloaded* one? :-))) Volume 1

>is a mere 333 MB - which would have taken me 22 hours to download (and

>my ISP disconnects every 4 hours, or rather more often) at the whopping

>(for Australia) speed of 50.6 Kbps... More than 2 km from a major town

>and you are back down to 18.sth Kbps. :-( I hope you are one of the

>privileged with broadband over there, Shane!

>

>Best regards,

>la, wishing she had broadband...

[Guest guest]

Hello Annie

Yes. That is a wonderful find! I do have broadband but I didn't need to

download the 300mb file. I downloaded the DjVu viewer and searched the

articles on-line. I have printed off a few relevant pages. I can see where my

terminology is defective in places. eg. focal distance should be focul length

(as pointed out). Some of the equations I found there (with commentary)

also appear in the article I am translating, so that should be tremendously

helpful.

Many thanks

regards,

Shane

Re: TERMS/ GER>ENG TERMS Opthalmology - Von Helmholtz

Hi Shane,

Have you seen the following U. of Pennsylvania website?

It provides the electronic edition of Helmholtz's Treatise on Physiological

Optics (3 vol.) -- translated from the 3rd German edition and published by

The Optical Society of America in 1925 (closer to 19th century German, Dee).

Three versions of each entire volume are available.

The Adobe version (OCR text replacement) is searchable.

For a start, see the Table of contents of each volume, and the Index of

Subjects (vol. 3, pp. 704 ff.).

http://www.psych.upenn.edu/backuslab/helmholtz/download/downloadpage.html

Apparently, Oertling made several instruments for Helmholtz.

I did find one metal mirror (vol. 1, p. 259).

You might want to try and test some of your solutions, and possibly find

new ones. See " Mechanism of accommodation " , vol. 1, pp. 143 ff.

Regards,

annie r.