Re: raw legal poll

[Guest guest]

The need for this information is extremely important and will be very valuable. But some of us have been attempting to gather this information for some time, and several observations need to be considered. The answer to the questions about legality is unbelievably difficult, because the variety of details in laws, the extreme variation in regulation and the even more variation in interpretation and enforcement efforts of State agencies. It is also made difficult by the realization that sincere folks just get it wrong, believing things and behaving on information that is not accurate. Then there is the final, though not as important observation that the controls over raw milk are in a state of flux.

Rather than trying to gather information on legality; I would urge that the poll gather information on the reality of what is in practice. Without trying to imply from this that it is an accurate reflection of the current legislative, regulatory and enforcement status in each State. Frame the questions to try to find out what is really happening. At least that way it might be possible to see how the reality matches the legal framework in each State. Don't ask whether it is legal or not, ask what are the current ways that raw milk is reaching families that have chosen to drink a healthier product. If you ask, what are you personally doing, you avoid the confusion of having respondents trying to interpret the legal status.

This list is a highly credible, diverse and reasonably accurate cross section of consumers and suppliers who want to obtain and supply unprocessed milk and dairy products. The results of a poll that asks how are you accomplishing this should be extremely helpful. But it should all be "first hand", not I understand that there are farmers doing this, or I heard that a group is doing that. And because of the legal, not nutritional, importance I would make a distinction between milk from cows and milk for goats. Information on both is important but they should not be pooled. And finally, but by no means less important, that poll data must not be linked to individuals. In fact at the top it should state that honest answers are critical, and individual responses will be kept confidential ( and I would make sure that that is the case ). Those of us trying to gather information are constantly confronted by the reluctance of farmers and some consumers to saying ANYTHING for fear that the regulators will use the information to "close them down". There is enough evidence that this happens that it can be a real damper on responses.

Ted Beals

[Guest guest]

Bravo Ted.

My only concern is that being Public on Yahoo! almost anyone could access our files.

Since we don't have a witness protection program of our own.... I figure Janet is in the perfect position to design this thing so nobody gets hurt.

All this info is Vital for any push to change/challenge current regulations. And Attorneys will find such info valuable too, as we design contractual agreements between farmers and consumers. Even a cow-share or LLC is not the same from state to state.

--Terry

Re: raw legal poll

The need for this information is extremely important and will be very valuable. But some of us have been attempting to gather this information for some time, and several observations need to be considered. The answer to the questions about legality is unbelievably difficult, because the variety of details in laws, the extreme variation in regulation and the even more variation in interpretation and enforcement efforts of State agencies. It is also made difficult by the realization that sincere folks just get it wrong, believing things and behaving on information that is not accurate. Then there is the final, though not as important observation that the controls over raw milk are in a state of flux.

Rather than trying to gather information on legality; I would urge that the poll gather information on the reality of what is in practice. Without trying to imply from this that it is an accurate reflection of the current legislative, regulatory and enforcement status in each State. Frame the questions to try to find out what is really happening. At least that way it might be possible to see how the reality matches the legal framework in each State. Don't ask whether it is legal or not, ask what are the current ways that raw milk is reaching families that have chosen to drink a healthier product. If you ask, what are you personally doing, you avoid the confusion of having respondents trying to interpret the legal status.

This list is a highly credible, diverse and reasonably accurate cross section of consumers and suppliers who want to obtain and supply unprocessed milk and dairy products. The results of a poll that asks how are you accomplishing this should be extremely helpful. But it should all be "first hand", not I understand that there are farmers doing this, or I heard that a group is doing that. And because of the legal, not nutritional, importance I would make a distinction between milk from cows and milk for goats. Information on both is important but they should not be pooled. And finally, but by no means less important, that poll data must not be linked to individuals. In fact at the top it should state that honest answers are critical, and individual responses will be kept confidential ( and I would make sure that that is the case ). Those of us trying to gather information are constantly confronted by the reluctance of farmers and some consumers to saying ANYTHING for fear that the regulators will use the information to "close them down". There is enough evidence that this happens that it can be a real damper on responses.

Ted Beals

[Guest guest]

Ted,

You are a wise-worded man. Thanks for clarifying my miscellaneous

ramblings - some of which I obviously did not make clear at all

I, too, think the poll should try to focus on what's really happening

and should definitely be 100% honest but annonymous. On the other

hand, though, many people would be helped immensely by being able to

compare our poll to what the actual laws/regs are in a particular

area/state.

I wholeheartedly agree that we need to be careful. This list is too

valuable to do anything to jeapoardize it or the people who belong to

it. I do differ on you on one point. I think it would be important

that individuals know the actual legal status (as far as one can

authenticate it) of raw milk and dairy sales in a particular

area/state precisely becuase it is so difficult to get straight

answers. IMHO these two sources of info do not have to be paired in

one poll, but should be equally available if possible.

Humbled by your clarity,

~wren

> The need for this information is extremely important and will be

very valuable. But some of us have been attempting to gather this

information for some time, and several observations need to be

considered. The answer to the questions about legality is

unbelievably difficult, because the variety of details in laws, the

extreme variation in regulation and the even more variation in

interpretation and enforcement efforts of State agencies. It is

also made difficult by the realization that sincere folks just get it

wrong, believing things and behaving on information that is not

accurate. Then there is the final, though not as important

observation that the controls over raw milk are in a state of flux.

>

> Rather than trying to gather information on legality; I would urge

that the poll gather information on the reality of what is in

practice. Without trying to imply from this that it is an accurate

reflection of the current legislative, regulatory and enforcement

status in each State. Frame the questions to try to find out what

is really happening. At least that way it might be possible to see

how the reality matches the legal framework in each State. Don't ask

whether it is legal or not, ask what are the current ways that raw

milk is reaching families that have chosen to drink a healthier

product. If you ask, what are you personally doing, you avoid the

confusion of having respondents trying to interpret the legal status.

>

> This list is a highly credible, diverse and reasonably accurate

cross section of consumers and suppliers who want to obtain and

supply unprocessed milk and dairy products. The results of a poll

that asks how are you accomplishing this should be extremely

helpful. But it should all be " first hand " , not I understand that

there are farmers doing this, or I heard that a group is doing

that. And because of the legal, not nutritional, importance I would

make a distinction between milk from cows and milk for goats.

Information on both is important but they should not be pooled. And

finally, but by no means less important, that poll data must not be

linked to individuals. In fact at the top it should state that

honest answers are critical, and individual responses will be kept

confidential ( and I would make sure that that is the case ). Those

of us trying to gather information are constantly confronted by the

reluctance of farmers and some consumers to saying ANYTHING for fear

that the regulators will use the information to " close them down " .

There is enough evidence that this happens that it can be a real

damper on responses.

>

> Ted Beals

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> a..

[Guest guest]

on 8/14/04 7:41 AM, Ted Beals at tedbeals@... wrote:

Dear Ted,

I agree that part of the poll should be about what our personal experience

is and how we get our healthy food for our families. Your other points

about the legality being so unclear in many states is true enough. It

would not surprise me if some of the highest consumption of raw or fresh

milk is in states where it is illegal.

The confidentiality issue is very important especially for the farmer. The

farmer has a much larger financial investment than a consumer that could be

lost in a struggle with a state agency. If the consumer loses their source

of raw or fresh milk they start looking for another source and go on with

their lives. Meanwhile the farmer could be in for a several year long

struggle with a state agency if they are singled out because of lack of

confidentiality. I think most producers think about this a lot and we as

consumers need to remember what risks and challenges the producers take in

providing raw milk for us. Thank you to all the producers out there for

your courage. It is greatly appreciated.

I would like to see a question asking if people would be willing to help in

the legislative process if raw milk is not legal in your state. Give a place

to list skills you could offer or how much time you would be willing to

donate per month ? In states where it is legal we could ask if people would

be willing to sponsor a local talk to educate others about raw milk in your

community. The WAPF has chapters all across the country and could assist in

finding a speaker or the local sponsor could give the talk. There is

certainly enough information on this list that someone could talk for a

couple of hours about Raw Dairy!!

Good idea for a poll. Lets hear some more ideas.