Re: gsaunders

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately,

This is a good topic to bring up. Some wait until it's too late to make plans or

arrangements. Like I did. I tried to talk with Insoon about it, but she would

always avoid the subject. The only thing she told me for certain, is that she

wanted me to send her home to her family in Korea.

Lucky for me, I am in the military and had wonderful support. When she was in

the hospital and getting nearer to her final hours, the base chaplain called me

in our hospital room while he was on leave on the east coast (I'm on the west)

during his Thanksgiving break. He offered me support and realizing time was near

asked me if I had thought about funeral arrangements. And, honestly, I hadn't

until he said that.

After my wife died others helped me arrange for my wifes transportation back to

Korea. I had to deal with customs, which the funeral home stepped in to work out

the wrinkles. When they asked me casket or urn? I thought back, and couldn't

remember if Insoon wanted to be cremated. So I had to call her family and ask

them what there wishes were. This was because I wasn't sure of hers.

She was cremated and sent back home. With a keepsake here in my home in a nice

cabinet with her angels she had collected over the years. And like Dennis, with

fresh flowers sitting atop.

As much as it hurts to talk about it, it hurts more not knowing later. If anyone

finds themselves in this situation, you may find it easier to side step the

questions you need to ask your loved one before they leave you, but don't. I

always tried to keep Insoon upbeat, so when she wouldn't feel like talking about

it, I didn't press her. But I wish I had. The pain, and guilt I felt for not

knowing what her last wishes were was enormous. I think I did what she would

have wanted, and I did what was heartfelt and what felt right to me and her

family.

Thanks for listening,

MaC

Dennis wrote:

GSaunders wrote: I read everything you write about and I think you know alot.

My husband found a doctor that gave him Librium to detox himself from alcohol. I

think there are many problems with this. First of all he is still drinking while

he is taking them and also I'm afraid of what the Librium does to his liver.

That sounds crazy because I know the alcohol is doing damage as well. He is

telling me that he is going to his liver doctor tomorrow. I guess we will see.

When I read this note a short time ago, my immediate thought is that mixing

tranquilizers and alcohol is a potentially lethal combination. It is also a

suicidal combination. I am not sure what he is going through or where he is

mentally.

My second thought is that he may well be " doctor-shopping. " Librium is a

low-level, basic tranquilizer with a long history of " safe " use that you can

probably get pretty easily from a doctor as long as you " forget " to mention

that you have serious liver problems...and promise that you will not drink while

taking it.

I know that you care very much about him, but I would remind you to take care

of yourself physically, mentally and legally. Make sure his will is up-to-date,

make sure you are the beneficiary of his insurance, make sure that you have

access to his records that you might need.

If you have not had a discussion about funeral arrangements, it is time to do

so...but I would begin by saying, " I know you're ill, but I don't expect you to

die. And I don't expect to die soon either. But things happen. If I die, I

want to be buried/cremated and I want a viewing/no viewing and the service

should be ..... I want to be buried in xyz cemetery or be in an urn on the

mantle or??? "

After all that, you just need to say, " What about you? If you were to die next

week, what would you want me to do? " It might be uncomfortable for you and he

might just " blow you off, " if you will. But he might also tell you what he

wants.

After Kjersten's death, her brother called to make arrangements to have her

body flown back to Iowa for interment in " the family plot " after services at

" the family church. " Kjersten had told me, very emphatically, that she didn't

want to be buried in the family plot in Iowa, but wanted to be close to me...so

I could visit her. And she wanted our local pastor to " say a few words. " So she

is here, not more than five miles from our house...I go there several times a

week, always keep fresh flowers there (we always had fresh flowers in the house

when she was alive) and we talk.

I don't mean this to be a morbid posting, but the combination of serious liver

illness plus continued alcohol use and, now, drug use (and that's what it is) is

extremely serious and, barring an absolute miracle, is, I'm afraid, very likely

to lead to his death. It's not your fault....you've done everything you could

and a lot more...take care of yourself...and know that everyone in this group is

there with you. There's a lot of support here. I know.

Dennis

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much for your honesty and your candor. I appreciate that because I

feel like my life is based on deception.

I don;t want my husband to die but, I would rather him die than for him and me

to live like this. I know he is as miserable as I am. Probably not as miserable

as me because he is intoxicated and I feel the full effect.

Dennis, you and Mac speak so lovingly of your wives. I am so angry. I don't know

how I will be able to stand myself when he dies and I am scared of him living a

long time with me as the caregiver. We were so in love and happy at different

times. Right before he was put on the liver transplant list, I had filed for

divorce and then he was hopitalized from his serious drinking. They neverthought

that he would leave the hospital. He did, I let him move home and in time God

healed my marriage. I forgave him for the all the hurt. He was put on the

transplant list and was doing great. Our last trip to Baylor in May they told us

he may never need a transplant. He had been sober 2 1/2 years. Then he started

drinking in September. Every aspect of our marriage has fallen apart. Maybe it

would have been different if he would have seeked help right away but, he didn't

get help until I " hit my bottom " . I don't understand how they have to keep on

until they lose everything. He makes me feel like he can't help himself. I would

love to have a sober alcoholic tell me that he chooses to drink. It is so crazy

that it makes me question my own sanity.

I really want to say thank you to you and Mac for taking time to share with me.

I look forward to checking my mail because I really do feel the concern from

this group. When I need to have someone that understands this is where I run.

b---- Dennis wrote:

> GSaunders wrote: I read everything you write about and I think you know alot.

My husband found a doctor that gave him Librium to detox himself from alcohol. I

think there are many problems with this. First of all he is still drinking while

he is taking them and also I'm afraid of what the Librium does to his liver.

That sounds crazy because I know the alcohol is doing damage as well. He is

telling me that he is going to his liver doctor tomorrow. I guess we will see.

>

> When I read this note a short time ago, my immediate thought is that mixing

tranquilizers and alcohol is a potentially lethal combination. It is also a

suicidal combination. I am not sure what he is going through or where he is

mentally.

>

> My second thought is that he may well be " doctor-shopping. " Librium is a

low-level, basic tranquilizer with a long history of " safe " use that you can

probably get pretty easily from a doctor as long as you " forget " to mention

that you have serious liver problems...and promise that you will not drink while

taking it.

>

> I know that you care very much about him, but I would remind you to take care

of yourself physically, mentally and legally. Make sure his will is up-to-date,

make sure you are the beneficiary of his insurance, make sure that you have

access to his records that you might need.

>

> If you have not had a discussion about funeral arrangements, it is time to do

so...but I would begin by saying, " I know you're ill, but I don't expect you to

die. And I don't expect to die soon either. But things happen. If I die, I

want to be buried/cremated and I want a viewing/no viewing and the service

should be ..... I want to be buried in xyz cemetery or be in an urn on the

mantle or??? "

>

> After all that, you just need to say, " What about you? If you were to die

next week, what would you want me to do? " It might be uncomfortable for you and

he might just " blow you off, " if you will. But he might also tell you what he

wants.

>

> After Kjersten's death, her brother called to make arrangements to have her

body flown back to Iowa for interment in " the family plot " after services at

" the family church. " Kjersten had told me, very emphatically, that she didn't

want to be buried in the family plot in Iowa, but wanted to be close to me...so

I could visit her. And she wanted our local pastor to " say a few words. " So she

is here, not more than five miles from our house...I go there several times a

week, always keep fresh flowers there (we always had fresh flowers in the house

when she was alive) and we talk.

>

> I don't mean this to be a morbid posting, but the combination of serious liver

illness plus continued alcohol use and, now, drug use (and that's what it is) is

extremely serious and, barring an absolute miracle, is, I'm afraid, very likely

to lead to his death. It's not your fault....you've done everything you could

and a lot more...take care of yourself...and know that everyone in this group is

there with you. There's a lot of support here. I know.

>

> Dennis

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

GSaunders, your anger is VERY familiar to me. I felt JUST as you do when

was very ill. I feared either that he would die or that I would be the

caretaker of a very sick drunk for a long time. I didn't know which would be

worse.

I really believe that Al-Anon saved my marriage. It was through that program

that I learned so much about alcoholism and about what I could and could not

do " for " . I was able to lovingly detach from him and -- miracle of

miracles -- once I was not nagging and trying to run his life -- his

intelligence kicked in and he stopped drinking completely. He has not had a

drink for almost two years. At diagnosis he has severe ascites. Today his

liver numbers are normal. He still doesn't have the strength and stamina

we'd like him to have but he's able to function well. We're about to embark

on a cross-country move and he'll be able to do much of the work, allowing

me to start my new work assignment confident the move is on-track.

Most important, I was able to re-connect with my love for my husband. Before

going to Al-Anon he was " my problem " . I couldn't see the smart, funny,

loving man I married through my anger and reproach. Today he is " my

husband " . Not a day goes by without us telling one another of our love, and

we are affectionate and close.

In any case, you need support. You will find it in Al-Anon. They will not

teach you how to " make " your husband stop drinking. They will help you learn

to fix the one thing you can fix -- yourself. You'll find yourself calmer,

less angry, less guilty. Please, please find an Al-Anon meeting today.

To find a meeting you can call 1- or go to this site:

http://www.al-anon.org/meetings/meeting.html

Prayers and hugs,

Dorothy

[Guest guest]

I thought heavily before responding. I can and can't imagine what you must be

going through. It wasn't always easy for me as well. Me and Insoon had many

fights and I was angry as well. I was miserable and assumed she was too. Maybe

worse than I. I even thought that my wife would choose her family first. If not

me, most certainly her daughter. But...I never understood her weakness. Nor,

could I do anything at the time to strengthen her. It's a slippery slope that

alcohol.

I can understand your anger and wanting not to be hurt like this. It's not fair.

You didn't ask for this and it's not your fault. But, there are times when our

lives are challenged and we just have to get through it. Somewhere inside you,

you have the strength. To keep focus. To keep your smile. To help. Deep down you

will want to save the one you love, but you can't and that is what hurts the

most.

It seems like you are living in a whirlwind that will never stop. We hope for

the best but expect the worst. But most of all just want the whirlwind to stop.

Almost like a roller coaster, up and down, up and down...

It's true, I love my wife very much, and I miss her. The good and the bad and

all her faults. But there was pain before I got to that point. Almost like the

pain you are feeling now. And after she died, there was almost a sense of

relief. But, not for me, for her. She's now at peace, with me, herself and God.

I don't know if I have any advice I can give to you except, what you may already

know. Be strong. Know yourself and your limitations. Love. and then continue to

Love. Eat. Don't forget to eat. (I lost almost 15 pounds!) Try too stay positive

even though it's hard. (Positive things happen to positive people). Let people

support you. This doesn't mean you have to listen to everyone's advice but let

them support you if they offer. Hang in there. If anything, life can be a rocky

boat, but there is always a beach to sail too.

MaC

gsaunders5@... wrote: Thank you so much for

your honesty and your candor. I appreciate that because I feel like my life is

based on deception.

I don;t want my husband to die but, I would rather him die than for him and me

to live like this. I know he is as miserable as I am. Probably not as miserable

as me because he is intoxicated and I feel the full effect.

Dennis, you and Mac speak so lovingly of your wives. I am so angry. I don't

know how I will be able to stand myself when he dies and I am scared of him

living a long time with me as the caregiver. We were so in love and happy at

different times. Right before he was put on the liver transplant list, I had

filed for divorce and then he was hopitalized from his serious drinking. They

neverthought that he would leave the hospital. He did, I let him move home and

in time God healed my marriage. I forgave him for the all the hurt. He was put

on the transplant list and was doing great. Our last trip to Baylor in May they

told us he may never need a transplant. He had been sober 2 1/2 years. Then he

started drinking in September. Every aspect of our marriage has fallen apart.

Maybe it would have been different if he would have seeked help right away but,

he didn't get help until I " hit my bottom " . I don't understand how they have to

keep on until they lose everything. He makes me

feel like he can't help himself. I would love to have a sober alcoholic tell me

that he chooses to drink. It is so crazy that it makes me question my own

sanity.

I really want to say thank you to you and Mac for taking time to share with

me. I look forward to checking my mail because I really do feel the concern from

this group. When I need to have someone that understands this is where I run.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

He left when they released him.

I appreciate you sharing with me. Painful to hear.

I don't know what is the right thing to do, it is a painful situation either

way.

I'm not looking for a painless way to deal with this. I want to do what will

help him. I want to do what is right.

I read this and called him. I told him I love him and I know he is sick and I

want to do the right thing for him. He told me that he wouldn't put up with it

and that if it was him, he would watch and see what happens. I have been honest

with him about how I feel and I continue to tell him I have hope. I understand

that you said you would take the good as well as the bad. I don't feel that way

at all. When my husband is drunk he is not the man I know and I don't have

feelings that I need to be with him.

I am probably quite different than most people that you might know. First of all

I am a Believer. Once a person dies and leaves their body, that body has no

meaning to me. I don't look at open caskets and I don't go to grave yards. Even

though my husband is not dead, when he is active in his drinking he is not

anyone that is familiar to me. I want to do what is best for him and even though

his health is failing, I am still emotionally heathy enough to recognize when it

is important to take care of myself. I will be the one left to pick up all the

pieces. I have children and a grandchild that depend on me to resemble some sort

of a normal life. I want them to be able to recognize and be compassionate about

addiction but, also be healthy enough to know that people do make choices. I own

a business that is struggling now and I work a full time job away from the

business. I don't know how you know what is right? Right for who?

---- abijann <no_reply > wrote:

> I'm a little confused...did he leave the detox program early or

> is he still going through with it?

>

> When my husband was sick, I started to realize that his life as

> he once knew it was no longer ahead of him. He would now start

> to live moment by moment without any of his dreams coming true.

> He did not know how much time he would

> be given, and the time he did have left would not be one of

> being easy and happy...it would be one of watching all he knew

> turn to ashes. His physical body started to change and he saw and

> could not believe the changes it was making. It startled me, so

> I could only imagine what he thought. His independence and being

> in charge of his life came to a halt...he became dependent and

> very incapable of taking care of himself and that was hard to

> accept. At times he was quiet and very reserve and others times

> I could tell he was upset by all that was going on with him and

> to him. I knew I could not do much to stop the mental and

> emotional pain he was going through, so I prayed that God would.

> Had it been me and I was only given a little time to live...I

> would want to live it healthy and be with those who loved me and

> who would forget about my passed mistakes and help me spend

> the rest of my days with them peacefully and without disappointment

> in their eyes, if what I did was considered to be my own fault.

> People tend to not to be able to forget nor forgive the things

> in the past and they tend to base what they do, more on the past,

> than what is here and now. Spending each day with my husband in his

> hospital room made me realize that life is so very precious and

> it takes just a moment to lose the breathe of life.

> He was wheeled downstairs for another test one night. I

> stayed in his room to wait for him. I was looking out the

> windows at the helicopters coming into the helipads and I turned

> around and there was the bed, completely empty. Tears came to

> my eyes and it was, for that moment, very real to me that he was

> no longer there and I had lost him. Everything that may have

> gone on in our lives before that time, did not even come to mind...

> I was in that very moment wishing we had more time together,

> whether good or bad or anyway it could be....just " any " moments I

> would of been given with him I would be so grateful for. For that

> brief period of time, I experienced what I would have felt like

> without him there and when I think of it, the emotions still bring

> tears to me.

>

> I'm telling you this, so that you will realize not to throw away

> the little time you have left together. I was mad because this

> happened to my husband and what it did to our lives.

> But, there was one thing I did know...I loved him and no matter what

> happened, I would be right there with him even when he would try so

> hard to push me away. I made sure he knew that only death, itself,

> could take me away from him and I still would have him there with me

> in my heart and mind.

>

> My husband told me, after he came out of the hospital, that he would

> have given up had I not been with him through it all. He told me

> it would have been too hard to had to have to go through it all

> alone.

>

> I'm not trying to make you feel quilty. I'm trying to show you

> that you may not have alot of time to spend with him and that

> each moment of that time should not be wasted in doing something

> that prevented it from happening. It is hard enough to watch

> someone die and harm themselves, add to that they will die can

> tear you completely apart. Try not to make drastic decisions.

> Go with what you feel each day. If you need to get away for

> just a day or maybe two, then do that...but, if you can not

> live with it at all...only you can decide what is best.

>

> I have never lived in your shoes even for a moment, I can only

> guess at what you have gone through and compare them to what

> I know from my own experiences. Only you know what is best for

> you.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you abijan. Your words, your thoughts and your prayers mean more to me

than I can adequately express to you at this time. I truly take to heart each

and every word that you take time to write to me. My heart is broken and I am

blessed that you care.

---- abijann <no_reply > wrote:

> When I make a decision to do something, I'm totally

> responsible for it. I don't do things to intentionally hurt

> anyone, but sometimes the things I do unintentionally hurt someone.

> I take things very slowly, and try to look at all aspects of them

> when I make a final decision. My decisions are based on my

> own beliefs, my own values, how I was raised, what I have learned

> in my life and what knowledge I have required through the years.

> There are times that my decisions have caused me terrible pain even

> though I thought they were right ones.

>

> I don't tell others what they should do or expect them to even

> listen to me. I share with them my own experiences and hope that

> in some way it might help them put things in perspective or help

> them come to a decision in their life that I pondered over

> continuely in my own. Or, it helps them open up to me and tell

> me more about their own life and experiences, trials, and their

> solutions.

>

> I never lived with anyone who was addicted...so I can only

> imagine what it is like. I try to understand why others do

> the things they do...but, sometimes they seem to be foreign to

> me why they do them.

>

> When Mac said to you to follow your heart, it brought back memories

> of that day I had in the hospital with my husband and many

> feelings I had. I shared them with you and others here.

> Though, I post like I'm only talking to you...I'm really talking

> to everyone who reads all the posts, like I do.

>

> Only you know what is best for you...what you decide takes in

> alot of things that I may have never encountered in my decision

> making.

>

> The pros and cons of what is right or what is wrong lies with

> the person making those decisions.

>

> I wish you the best and hope that things work out well for all

> of you...my heart goes out to you, your family, and your husband.

> It is a very difficult time you are going through. Please keep

> us informed how all of you are doing.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gsaunders, when your husband is drinking he is NOT some other person. Your

husband is ill. He is an alcoholic. He's not the victim of some outside

force. No one is doing this to him. He is ill, and he is making choices.

I am concerned in that you seem wholly focused on him - whether or not he's

drinking, indicators of his health. What about you? What about your health,

mental and physical? What are YOU doing to foster your own wellness?

I wrote some harsher things, but decided to delete them. My concerns are

valid for this list - this is a group of people with cirrhosis AND their

caretakers.

Dorothy