RE: Indoor microbial question

[Guest guest]

Steve,

I would test the fish to make sure that they aren't the flesh eating kind!

Adam

________________________________

From: AirwaysEnv@...

Sent: Thu 3/31/2005 9:46 PM

To: iequality

Cc: AIRWAYSENV@...

Subject: Indoor microbial question

Hi all,

I was recently surprised and humbled that I did not know the answer to an

innocently asked question. After cautioning someone about the need for proper

sanitary maintenance of a humidifier I received the response, " What about our

fish tank, we haven't changed that water in over five years? " .

Is there a known health risk associated with fish tanks? Fish tank fever? Fish

fanciers' lung? Ichthyologists' lung disease?

If the answer is the usual " it depends " , what does it depend on? A biocide in

the charcoal? Aeration? The kind of fish? The pH?

For you environmental microbiology lab folks, what would you suggest I " test

for " to assess the health risk to occupants of environments containing fish

tanks?

If it is not a health risk, why not?

To say that IEQ is a multidisciplinary field is a gross understatement.

Steve Temes

(Tanks in advance)

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________________________________

[Guest guest]

Steve, Adam and all other fishermen,

All humor aside it's often the simple questions that can be very

stimulating for me. The significant factor of the fish tank and

humidifier is not when or how often the water is changed. The

significance is the ecology of each. One is biologically active and

supportive of a broad balance of living organisms both macro and

micro. They assist each other in growing, dying and cleaning up after

each other. The other is limited to a narrow selection of micro at

the expense of others; and I doubt any macros would live for long in

the humidifier. Likewise, an ecosystem supportive only of macro

probably wouldn't be that supportive of micros.

Buildings are designed to support macro organisms, specifically

people; and ought to be better designed to support *only* people.

When the ecosystem shifts so that the structure also supports

microorganism growth such or mold and bacteria - or macros such as

insects and rodents - at the expense of people, then action is

warranted to shift the ecology back. Then, just before reoccupancy,

you can turn the flesh eaters loose to remove the unwanted.

Carl Grimes

Healthy Habitats LLC

- --

> Steve,

>

> I would test the fish to make sure that they aren't the flesh eating

> kind!

>

> Adam

>

> ________________________________

>

> From: AirwaysEnv@...

> Sent: Thu 3/31/2005 9:46 PM

> To: iequality

> Cc: AIRWAYSENV@...

> Subject: Indoor microbial question

>

>

> Hi all,

>

> I was recently surprised and humbled that I did not know the answer to

> an innocently asked question. After cautioning someone about the need

> for proper sanitary maintenance of a humidifier I received the

> response, " What about our fish tank, we haven't changed that water in

> over five years? " .

>

> Is there a known health risk associated with fish tanks? Fish tank

> fever? Fish fanciers' lung? Ichthyologists' lung disease?

>

> If the answer is the usual " it depends " , what does it depend on? A

> biocide in the charcoal? Aeration? The kind of fish? The pH?

>

> For you environmental microbiology lab folks, what would you suggest I

> " test for " to assess the health risk to occupants of environments

> containing fish tanks?

>

> If it is not a health risk, why not?

>

> To say that IEQ is a multidisciplinary field is a gross

> understatement.

>

> Steve Temes

> (Tanks in advance)

[Guest guest]

Carl,

I understand the balanced ecosystem thing but it all hinges upon removal of suspended organics and oxygenation of the water reservoir. It seems counter-intuitive that a reservoir containing all sorts of algal, fish, plant, and bacterial biofunk (new technical term) would not contain something as harmful as a reservoir of potable water refreshed with new potable water containing residual chlorine. I know about biofilms preventing cellular contact with the chlorine. Biofilms occur in fish tanks, too.

How about this question? If one were to aerate and filter the water in a room humidifier reservoir as one would a fish tank, would that be sufficient to prevent the growth of gram negative bacteria and preclude the need for sanitization with a disinfectant? Maybe a fish tank is a better humidifier than a humidifier with regard to potential airborne bacterial contamination (gram negatives and endotoxins).

Speaking of simple questions being intellectually stimulating, I never received an answer to the question (and still wonder), "Why is the cold-and-flu season in the cold-and-flu season?". The practical implication of this is that if we can maintain an "off cold-and-flu season environment" in the cold-and-flu season it would follow that that environment would be more healthful.

Steve Temes

(I'd get a lot more accomplished if I didn't think about these things so much.)

All humor aside it's often the simple questions that can be very

stimulating for me. The significant factor of the fish tank and

humidifier is not when or how often the water is changed. The

significance is the ecology of each. One is biologically active and

supportive of a broad balance of living organisms both macro and

micro. They assist each other in growing, dying and cleaning up after

each other. The other is limited to a narrow selection of micro at

the expense of others; and I doubt any macros would live for long in

the humidifier. Likewise, an ecosystem supportive only of macro

probably wouldn't be that supportive of micros.

[Guest guest]

Good gravy, I go on vacation and everybody becomes a

philosopher and starts asking deceptively big questions.

I’m going

to buttress Carl’s statements by saying that an aquarium is in

homeostasis. The fish poops, the

bacteria break the poop down to tiny molecules like amines and sulfides and

CO2. The fish breathes out

CO2. Any algae in the tank take some

of the amines and sulfides and CO2 and produce O2 and pretty green colors. If the algae or bacteria get too

populous, they die off. Addition

of snails, clams, or plecostrami (sucker fish!) can shift the microbial balance

as needed, and eventually die off too if they eat too much. Ideally, they all find a way to live

harmoniously (e.g., the pleco doesn’t have much to eat, so it doesn’t grow too

much and doesn’t need too many nutrients).

Bubblers

aerate the water, making sure the fish have enough to breathe and helping any

microaerobes out. The charcoal

does little more than reduce the stink of the dissolved amines and sulfides

(AFAIK, there is no biocide in most charcoals). The charcoal also provides a nice habitat for bacteria that

eat the fish poop. In my

experience, the bacteria in this environment form a biofilm, which likely

wouldn’t impact the waterborne bacterial concentrations much, therefore not

affecting the air above the tank.

Further,

most aquaria have a lid that does a pretty good job of containing vapors, both

water and chemical. I would

suspect that bacteria are adequately contained as well--it’s a lot harder to

contain a chemical vapor than a microbe.

In sum,

aquaria, when maintained correctly, likely aren’t much of a source of airborne

microbial contaminants. I’ll pay

you $5 to take a drink of the water, though...

Chug! Chug! Chug!

A. Walsh MS, CIE

-----Original

Message-----

From: AirwaysEnv@...

Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005

9:47 PM

To: iequality

Cc: AIRWAYSENV@...

Subject: Indoor

microbial question

Hi all,

I was recently surprised and humbled that I did not know the answer to an

innocently asked question. After cautioning someone about the need for

proper sanitary maintenance of a humidifier I received the response, " What

about our fish tank, we haven't changed that water in over five years? " .

Is there a known health risk associated with fish tanks? Fish tank

fever? Fish fanciers' lung? Ichthyologists' lung disease?

If the answer is the usual " it depends " , what does it depend

on? A biocide in the charcoal? Aeration? The kind of

fish? The pH?

For you environmental microbiology lab folks, what would you suggest I

" test for " to assess the health risk to occupants of environments

containing fish tanks?

If it is not a health risk, why not?

To say that IEQ is a multidisciplinary field is a gross understatement.

Steve Temes

(Tanks in advance)

FAIR USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always

been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such

material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental,

political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice

issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted

material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance

with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed

without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the

included information for research and educational purposes. For more

information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own

that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.