Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???

[Guest guest]

Charlene,

Perhaps this is a valid philosophical issue. Feel free to carry on as I can tell you intent to do. Have I stooped so low? Perhaps. Perhaps our philosophies, perspectives and approach to things differ in the extreme.

My apologies to you if there was too much force in my tone, and if it was offensive to you. Personally I found your arguments to be offensive and outrageous to my sensibilities. Perhaps I misunderstand you and your intentions. I know several children whose lives have been severely damaged directly caused by vaccinations, so I find it to be a hot button topic. And I would never ever allow anyone to vaccinate any of my children. Period. I have read so many horror stories and well documented studies on the topic and on the actual contents of the vaccines. It would make any conscientous person sick and angry to the core.

In any case, I think I'll stay out of this thread. I've already gone overboard in my own estimation. And of course, there is plenty of room in this world and this group for all of our opinions and positions.

Respectfully,

Tonio

Re: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? >Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:04:41 -0400 > > >People die from regulated foods.. hmm. I would not like to think about how many would perish from foods that were not regulated. But then ?again, we have very little to measure that, because most all foods are regulated. What would happen, for example, if half the population decided not to vaccinate for human diseases? What happens to my right, as a person that chooses to vaccinate against diseases when exposed to someone that chooses not to vaccinate for diseases? Where is my right not >to be exposed to disease carriers? > >Charlene, >You've got to be a government spokesperson. I can't imagine anyone being so misinformed or ignorrant and adamantly so, about the issues of health in regard to food and vaccines and god knows what else. > >There is overwhelming evidence that you are completely and udderly WRONG in both assertions/opinions. And all the government's "evidence" comes from people paid by specific industries and pharmaceutical companies to promote their speciffic agendas. > >It's outrageous to spread such lies and propaganda that only serves to hurt the rest of us. If you are innocently misinformed you would do well to do a little research on both sides of the issue and then decide for yourself instead of taking the government's line at face value. > >Never has it been more important to, "question authority, and think for yourself."

[Guest guest]

Hi Sally,

I've retired my cannon for the night.

Where is this wonderful dairy? And where are you located? Me and my Jasmine(who is also in love with your Jasmine) might be able to come down and visit sometime depending on where you are.

It's interesting to hear your story, because I've seen a few dairy operations up here in Vermont, most of them organic, in my pursuit of raw milk, and it makes me wonder how some of them get by inspections.

I also remember that Alta Dena the original commercial Raw dairy in California had a lot of extra hoops to jump through, as the state was always looking for the slightest excuse to condemn every batch of their milk.

Tonio

I am thankful that there is a wonderful Dairy in New England that sells raw milk legally. They work with the state and they do an extremely good job.

[Guest guest]

OH Heck! It was just getting interesting, Chris! Don't back out

now! Strong dialogue, important issue; Freedom. Our right to

choose the food we eat, and the source. Our power to influence.

How much government intervention should we support, or tolerate? I

find myself drawn to this bold group, night after night.

Tricky, Raw Milk. What a good dialogue! This is the heart of the

issue, isn't it? Shall we forget the milk, and fight the process?

My compliments to all, for being decent and civil, respectful and

passionate. There has been ample room for all opinions here. I

like that. I still am pondering the question of whether a diverse

group of individuals can self-rule, or must be ruled.

I know where I stand, but I don't know how I could dictate that for

others. Truth is so slippery!

Cheers,

-Blair

> Please remove me from this list. I am not intrested in listening

to people

> deride one another.I am new to this list and I hope this is not

all that goes

> on.I am a raw goats milk drinker,so I understand views on both

sides of the

> arguement,but I feel this has gotten out of hand.I am sure there

will be some

> poor things said about me,but we live in the US,so go ahead.

> Thank you.

> Chris

[Guest guest]

Hello !

Thanks for chiming in. Your points are well noted and excellently articulated. As one MicroDairy to another I truly believe our energies are directed in the right place. It is by far much more difficult to comply than circomvent the laws concerning dairy operations. After all if it was so easy, then everyone would have their hand in it. Instead of making the effort, skirting becomes a more popular option. I can see if the illegal raw sales become a problem, they may just outlaw all raw sales.. which really would put the screws to people. I know my inspector has said that there is a really heft fine for those that decide not to become licensed yet continue to sell milk. I have the same problem here, people selling milk without a license undermining those of us that do. In fact one woman not far from me said she'd continue until they told her to stop.

I'm a firm believer in if you don't like the law, then work to change it..but don't expect the law to conform to your lifestyle, just because you think it should. Direct your energies in a more productive manner These people that think we should live in a lawless society where everyone checks their own need to step into the real world and stop screwing things up for us that are trying to work within the law. Thanks for providing your insight into this topic. I know you have worked hard to get where you are today.

charlene

>

>To: ,<RawDairy > >Subject: RE: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? >Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 16:18:33 -0700 > >Charlene- > >I'm with you on this. I voiced similar opinions when I joined this group and nearly got flamed off the list for expressing my views. Of course, no one was ignorant enough to tell me I must be some kind of government agent just because I believed in following the law (I was instead, as I recall, an evil commercial dairy operator afraid of a little competition). Sheesh! > >Some of these folks just don't get it. They have no clue just how frustrating the illegal sales of raw milk can be to those of us who have worked so hard to do it within the law. I am in Arizona (as you may remember), a state where selling raw milk and cheese is legal. We are currently certified for cheese making and not fluid milk. We are the only certified goat dairy in the state (milking a whopping 14 girls this year, whoo-hoo!) and there are presently NO dairies here certified for raw fluid milk at all. It's something we've been working on doing for almost a year and may actually be getting close on. > >In the mean time every other goat owner we know has been blissfully selling their raw milk with no intervention or oversight, and often very little knowledge of what they are doing. Some of these places are fearfully disgusting to think about drinking ANY milk from, I don't care if it's raw or has been boiled for a week. And they are not exactly giving the stuff away either, ya know? At some, the animals are diseased, the milking conditions are deplorable, sanitation/hygiene is non-existent, and bottling is a joke. Even the ones who are conscientious about their herds and their cleanliness are often creating problem situations. Do they understand how certain medications are passed through to the milk?, about withdrawal times?, residuals?, about why certain treatments are not permitted at all for dairy animals? I guarantee most do not and some of them are contributing directly to antibiotic and other medication resistance, not to mention inadvertently medicating their own customers. People on the list will go on about personal responsibility and how it is up to the individual consumers to know enough to protect themselves from such situations, not up to the government (as if the two were mutually exclusive), but how can they really know? I'm sure that "Snap" and "Charm" tests might as well be breakfast cereals to them. We're both small and operate sustainably and don't have this problem, but at least we know about this kind of thing and how to handle it right? > >The point is that we are both working hard toward doing it right, while all around us people, with nothing to lose, are undermining our efforts. The State Ag Dept guys and USDA here think they should do away with raw milk approvals altogether because no one is certified so, "there must not be any demand". These guys know full well that there are dozens of people selling raw milk under the radar everyday but a)don't want the extra work of certifying and monitoring dozens of tiny operations, and don't want to take on the responsibility for certifying a product (i.e. raw milk) under any circumstance that they feel is inherently "poison in a bottle". Their approach is to just close their eyes and take no action or responsibility with these folks WHILE AT THE SAME TIME implying to us that if we try to sell clean, healthy milk from our certified dairy operation without jumping through all of their ridiculous hoops, they will shut us down in a heartbeat. They would love to get the pesky raw milk laws out of their hair and, who knows, without some support, maybe they will. > >I bet if 10% of the folks out there who are supporting Illegally produced milk in this state would just lean a little on the Ag Dept to put some serious effort into getting reasonable interpretations of the laws already on the books in order to get a bunch of little farmstead operations certified for legal raw milk, there would be abundant, affordable raw milk for everyone here who wanted it. (of course, that would take all of the fun out of it for some folks, ya know?) > >Things are different in places where there is no such thing as legal raw milk, but when certain individuals insist on painting the whole raw milk picture with such broad brush strokes (anti-government, no regulation at any cost, etc.), as if there were something wrong with following the rules, and producing legal raw milk where possible, some of us in the trenches are going to keep having a harder time because of it. They couldn't understand this when I tried to explain it before. Maybe you'll have better luck. > >Hang in there Charlene, you're not alone out here. > > Heininger >(just another evil and misguided, money-grubbing, small-dairy person) >Black Mesa Ranch >Snowflake, Arizona USA >Farmstead Artisan Goat Cheeses >"The Flavor of the White Mountains" >BlackMesaRanchOnline.com > > From: charlene callicoat > > Sent: Sat 7/10/2004 2:58 PM > > To: RawDairy > > Cc: > > Subject: RE: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? > > You know some of us on this list are commercial dairy operators. We have jumped through all the hoops to provide the best quality milk and milk products that we can all within the legal limits of the laws of the state that issues our licenses. We have put a lot of time and money in our operations not to mention the research and knowledge to make a living providing dairy products to all the multitude of people that want a variety of products. I, for one, resent the fact that backyard milk operations are illegally selling milk and milk products just to "turn a buck" under the sweetness of "providing products that otherwise would be difficult to obtain". I irks my soul knowing that there are those out there that would rather circumvent the law rathar than doing what they need to do to complying with the law. Yes, I've spent mucho money seeing to it that my dairy conforms to the law. Why? because I wouldn't dare try to sell any milk product, and risk my family's belongings just because it was something that I thought I had the right to do. If that was the case, then we shouldn't have any laws and the laws that we have should be ignored. I pay the tax on my goods, I pay the hefty licensing, I pay to have my dairy coform to the standards and so my question is Why shouldn't you too? What makes you the privileged one not to conform to the laws of your state. I'm not afraid of your sales versus mine, I'm afraid of the bad rap you might give to the legitimate small dairy man's name because you sold milk that was tainted, mastitic, or contained life threatening bacteria. How many of you backyard milkers can honestly say that you test your milk on a regular basis? How many of you can say that you test for mastitis and pathagens? How many of you can look your prospective customer in the eye and tell them that you are providing them with the BEST milk or milk/dairy product that you possibly can. Thought so. > > charlene > > > MSN Life Events gives you the tips and tools to handle the turning points in your life.

[Guest guest]

---

I'm with you on all of it but this...

>I bet if 10% of the folks out there who are supporting Illegally produced milk in this state would just lean a little on the Ag Dept to put some serious effort into getting reasonable interpretations of the laws already on the books in order to get a bunch of little farmstead operations certified for legal raw milk, there would be abundant, affordable raw milk for everyone here who wanted it. (of course, that would take all of the fun out of it for some folks, ya know?)

I wish to God that were so in more places, but unfortunately I don't believe it is. In truth, we need somebody to set minimum standards for those running a slip-shod operation. And to look to the public Agency we pay to do that is not unreasonable, but the states are really strapped for the cash to do what needs doing. Why the Obvious doesn't often work, I do not know. Easier said than done. When it does appear you may have accomplished Something, it often doesn't turn out as you'd hoped in Practice.

My case in point is Oprah Winfrey's drive to get all new school personnel tested (aka finger-printed) to see if you were a sex-offender looking for easy pickings.... When I went to apply for Substitute teaching again, I had to pay the school $40 to get my fingers dirty, even though I had a valid teaching certificate, and more than enough experience and letters of recommendation.

"Just change the Laws..."? Just apply what's already there? Just get our Columbus to agree on 2+2=4? They can't even give accurate numbers to the court concerning how they will equitably distribute school funding. It's been dragging on for Years, and it has been speculated they simply can't Add. ... a testament to our "failed" schools!

Your election system in AZ is maybe even more "predictable" than ours in OH. If you guys pull this one off, I'm moving to AZ .... lol.

--Terry

RE: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? > > You know some of us on this list are commercial dairy operators. We have jumped through all the hoops to provide the best quality milk and milk products that we can all within the legal limits of the laws of the state that issues our licenses. We have put a lot of time and money in our operations not to mention the research and knowledge to make a living providing dairy products to all the multitude of people that want a variety of products. I, for one, resent the fact that backyard milk operations are illegally selling milk and milk products just to "turn a buck" under the sweetness of "providing products that otherwise would be difficult to obtain". I irks my soul knowing that there are those out there that would rather circumvent the law rathar than doing what they need to do to complying with the law. Yes, I've spent mucho money seeing to it that my dairy conforms to the law. Why? because I wouldn't dare try to sell any milk product, and risk my family's belongings just because it was something that I thought I had the right to do. If that was the case, then we shouldn't have any laws and the laws that we have should be ignored. I pay the tax on my goods, I pay the hefty licensing, I pay to have my dairy coform to the standards and so my question is Why shouldn't you too? What makes you the privileged one not to conform to the laws of your state. I'm not afraid of your sales versus mine, I'm afraid of the bad rap you might give to the legitimate small dairy man's name because you sold milk that was tainted, mastitic, or contained life threatening bacteria. How many of you backyard milkers can honestly say that you test your milk on a regular basis? How many of you can say that you test for mastitis and pathagens? How many of you can look your prospective customer in the eye and tell them that you are providing them with the BEST milk or milk/dairy product that you possibly can. Thought so. > > charlene

[Guest guest]

,

I'm glad you are in Arizona and can give personal knowledge of how it works here. Please tell me why you have been denied certification to sell raw milk? To me your own post gives the very evidence of why many do not even pursue the "legal" route. You've been working on this for almost a year? How is it you can be certified and qualified to sell cheese but not milk? I just don't get it (but am trying hard to).

I have no intention to sell raw milk illegally. I am not a law breaker by any means! I am looking into the co-op situation where people will be drinking milk from their own goats, but I won't do it without knowing the legalities and liabilities.

I am really glad this discussion is going on. It's a potential hotbed discussion and I think it's going really well! Please please educate me on this process of becoming certified to sell raw milk! And why are there NO certified dairies in AZ? Thanks

Danni AckermanMighty Oak Farm Nubian Goatshttp://www.mightyoakfarm.comToday's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

Charlene-I'm with you on this. I voiced similar opinions when I joined this group and nearly got flamed off the list for expressing my views. Of course, no one was ignorant enough to tell me I must be some kind of government agent just because I believed in following the law (I was instead, as I recall, an evil commercial dairy operator afraid of a little competition). Sheesh!Some of these folks just don't get it. They have no clue just how frustrating the illegal sales of raw milk can be to those of us who have worked so hard to do it within the law. I am in Arizona (as you may remember), a state where selling raw milk and cheese is legal. We are currently certified for cheese making and not fluid milk. We are the only certified goat dairy in the state (milking a whopping 14 girls this year, whoo-hoo!) and there are presently NO dairies here certified for raw fluid milk at all. It's something we've been working on doing for almost a year and may actually be getting close on. In the mean time every other goat owner we know has been blissfully selling their raw milk with no intervention or oversight, and often very little knowledge of what they are doing. Some of these places are fearfully disgusting to think about drinking ANY milk from, I don't care if it's raw or has been boiled for a week. And they are not exactly giving the stuff away either, ya know? At some, the animals are diseased, the milking conditions are deplorable, sanitation/hygiene is non-existent, and bottling is a joke. Even the ones who are conscientious about their herds and their cleanliness are often creating problem situations. Do they understand how certain medications are passed through to the milk?, about withdrawal times?, residuals?, about why certain treatments are not permitted at all for dairy animals? I guarantee most do not and some of them are contributing directly to antibiotic and other medication resistance, not to mention inadvertently medicating their own customers. People on the list will go on about personal responsibility and how it is up to the individual consumers to know enough to protect themselves from such situations, not up to the government (as if the two were mutually exclusive), but how can they really know? I'm sure that "Snap" and "Charm" tests might as well be breakfast cereals to them. We're both small and operate sustainably and don't have this problem, but at least we know about this kind of thing and how to handle it right?The point is that we are both working hard toward doing it right, while all around us people, with nothing to lose, are undermining our efforts. The State Ag Dept guys and USDA here think they should do away with raw milk approvals altogether because no one is certified so, "there must not be any demand". These guys know full well that there are dozens of people selling raw milk under the radar everyday but a)don't want the extra work of certifying and monitoring dozens of tiny operations, and don't want to take on the responsibility for certifying a product (i.e. raw milk) under any circumstance that they feel is inherently "poison in a bottle". Their approach is to just close their eyes and take no action or responsibility with these folks WHILE AT THE SAME TIME implying to us that if we try to sell clean, healthy milk from our certified dairy operation without jumping through all of their ridiculous hoops, they will shut us down in a heartbeat. They would love to get the pesky raw milk laws out of their hair and, who knows, without some support, maybe they will.I bet if 10% of the folks out there who are supporting Illegally produced milk in this state would just lean a little on the Ag Dept to put some serious effort into getting reasonable interpretations of the laws already on the books in order to get a bunch of little farmstead operations certified for legal raw milk, there would be abundant, affordable raw milk for everyone here who wanted it. (of course, that would take all of the fun out of it for some folks, ya know?)Things are different in places where there is no such thing as legal raw milk, but when certain individuals insist on painting the whole raw milk picture with such broad brush strokes (anti-government, no regulation at any cost, etc.), as if there were something wrong with following the rules, and producing legal raw milk where possible, some of us in the trenches are going to keep having a harder time because of it. They couldn't understand this when I tried to explain it before. Maybe you'll have better luck.Hang in there Charlene, you're not alone out here. Heininger(just another evil and misguided, money-grubbing, small-dairy person)Black Mesa RanchSnowflake, Arizona USAFarmstead Artisan Goat Cheeses"The Flavor of the White Mountains"BlackMesaRanchOnline.com From: charlene callicoat Sent: Sat 7/10/2004 2:58 PM To: RawDairy Cc: Subject: RE: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? You know some of us on this list are commercial dairy operators. We have jumped through all the hoops to provide the best quality milk and milk products that we can all within the legal limits of the laws of the state that issues our licenses. We have put a lot of time and money in our operations not to mention the research and knowledge to make a living providing dairy products to all the multitude of people that want a variety of products. I, for one, resent the fact that backyard milk operations are illegally selling milk and milk products just to "turn a buck" under the sweetness of "providing products that otherwise would be difficult to obtain". I irks my soul knowing that there are those out there that would rather circumvent the law rathar than doing what they need to do to complying with the law. Yes, I've spent mucho money seeing to it that my dairy conforms to the law. Why? because I wouldn't dare try to sell any milk product, and risk my family's belongings just because it was something that I thought I had the right to do. If that was the case, then we shouldn't have any laws and the laws that we have should be ignored. I pay the tax on my goods, I pay the hefty licensing, I pay to have my dairy coform to the standards and so my question is Why shouldn't you too? What makes you the privileged one not to conform to the laws of your state. I'm not afraid of your sales versus mine, I'm afraid of the bad rap you might give to the legitimate small dairy man's name because you sold milk that was tainted, mastitic, or contained life threatening bacteria. How many of you backyard milkers can honestly say that you test your milk on a regular basis? How many of you can say that you test for mastitis and pathagens? How many of you can look your prospective customer in the eye and tell them that you are providing them with the BEST milk or milk/dairy product that you possibly can. Thought so. charlenePLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Yes Charlene, I do understand what you are saying here, but if the

founding fathers had felt that way we would all be flying the British

flag.

On Jul 12, 2004, at 2:05 PM, RawDairy wrote:

> I'm a firm believer in if you don't like the law, then work to

> change it..but don't expect the law to conform to your lifestyle, just

> because you think it should. Direct your energies in a more productive

> manner These people that think we should live in a lawless society

> where everyone checks their own need to step into the real world and

> stop screwing things up for us that are trying to work within the law.

[Guest guest]

Yea ! Viva la revolution! And illegalize pasterized milk!

Yes Charlene, I do understand what you are saying here, but if the founding fathers had felt that way we would all be flying the British flag.

[Guest guest]

founding fathers had felt that way .....<snip>

what working within the law? Obviously, they didn't come to America to continue to be under British rule so why on earth would they continue to live according to British law? If they weren't intent on working within a law(s), guess then, their consitituion served for nothing then. Gee, I seem to remember a little tea party up in Boston that served tp significantly change things. And if my memory serves me correctly it was over some silly little British tax law...hmm guess it got changed didn't it and we aren't flying the British flag either anymore. I don't recall seeing "breaking the law" as one of our inaleinable rights nor as an amendment to our constitution.

charlene

> >Reply-To: RawDairy >To: RawDairy >Subject: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? >Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:06:02 -0500 > >Yes Charlene, I do understand what you are saying here, but if the >founding fathers had felt that way we would all be flying the British >flag. > > >On Jul 12, 2004, at 2:05 PM, RawDairy wrote: > > > I'm a firm believer in if you don't like the law, then work to > > change it..but don't expect the law to conform to your lifestyle, just > > because you think it should. Direct your energies in a more productive > > manner These people that think we should live in a lawless society > > where everyone checks their own need to step into the real world and > > stop screwing things up for us that are trying to work within the law. > > > >

[Guest guest]

Charlene,

To escape from British rule was NOT the reason the founding fathers

came to America. They were the descendants of Puritans from the 1600's

who came for freedom of religion from the Church of England. For more

than fifty years before the Seven Years' War there was a strong

attachment between the two peoples--the US and England, and that the

thought of severing their bond of union was not entertained. It is true

that there was some complaining and small problems during that time.

But the proudest boast of the colonists was still that they were

Englishmen. It was not a silly little tax law that they were evading.

It was tyranny, it was oppression. They were fighting for freedom.

British soldiers could come into one's house and occupy it and demand

food and drink for free. Homes were burned, families were killed.

After 11 years of trying peaceful negotiations with King to rid

themselves of his " taxation without representation " in parliament, the

founding fathers decided NOT to work within the law of that corrupt

government and chose civil disobedience. When a government oppresses

it's people to the point of tyranny, we are fully justified in NOT

working within the law. The Boston Tea Party led by founding father

, was civil disobedience--it was BREAKING the law. Allow

me to quote from Hornberger, " In the late 1700s, the British

colonists suffered under the same type of oppressive regulations and

tax system that present-day Americans are suffering. What was the

reaction of the colonists to this regulatory and tax tyranny? They

deliberately chose to ignore and disobey their government's regulations

and tax acts. Smuggling and tax evasion were the order of the day! And

the more that their government tried to enforce the restrictions, the

more it met with disregard and disobedience from the citizenry...The

true patriot scrutinizes the actions of his own government with

unceasing vigilance. And when his government violates the morality and

rightness associated with principles of individual freedom and private

property, he immediately rises in opposition to his government. " This

is what is happening when small farms sell raw milk without a license

or permission...consciously or not, they are recognizing that the

current law is wrong, tyrannical, and violates the principles of

individual freedom and private property. What we have with our

current health departments amounts to little more than corruption and

tyranny. There have been many farms who have been run out of business,

as Terry cites, from unjust accusations and corrupt rules. This is

only one example of many. It is not to the point of taking up arms to

be sure, but it certainly calls for civil disobedience by going ahead

and selling raw milk. Civil disobedience can also peacefully bring it

before the courts and have the law changed. Access to undestroyed food

like raw milk, vital to the health our of families, is not to be taken

lightly, and is an issue of individual freedoms being taken away.  

Allow me to quote some famous people, some of whom were founding

fathers, and these all apply to the raw milk situation:

" In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave,

hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join

him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot. " -- Clemens,

author, writing under the pen name " Mark Twain "

" To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men. " --

Abraham Lincoln

" ...it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate,

tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds... " --

Adam

" We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage

where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the

citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest

periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force. " [Ayn Rand,

The Nature of Government]

" Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to

take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a

government grows, liberty decreases. " -- Jefferson

" If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude

better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace.

We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which

feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity

forget ye were our countrymen. " --

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of

chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course

others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

Henry 1775

founding fathers had felt that way .....<snip>

what working within the law? Obviously, they didn't come to America to

continue to be under British rule    so why on earth would they

continue to live according to British law?  If they weren't intent on

working within a law(s), guess then, their consitituion served for

nothing then.    Gee, I seem to remember a little tea party up in

Boston that served tp significantly change things. And if my memory

serves me correctly it was over some silly little British tax law...hmm

guess it got changed didn't it and we aren't flying the British flag

either anymore. I don't recall seeing " breaking the law " as one of our

inaleinable rights nor as an amendment to our constitution.

charlene

 

>

>Reply-To: RawDairy

>To: RawDairy

>Subject: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???

>Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:06:02 -0500

>

>Yes Charlene, I do understand what you are saying here, but if the

>founding fathers had felt that way we would all be flying the British

>flag.

>

>

[Guest guest]

We all know that they came here to for religious freedom.. however, do you realy think they intended on being British subject indefinately? The little tea party was just the icing on the cake that in which they demonstrated their *dislike* for the taxes imposed on them by the British.They were fighting for freedom <snip> oh now we are talking about personal freedom???????? Gee didni't I say that somewhere?

sell raw milk without a license or permission...consciously or not, they are recognizing that the current law is wrong, tyrannical, and violates the principles of individual freedom and private property. <snip> No they aren't , they are just "trying to justify breaking the law"

What we have with our current health departments amounts to little more than corruption and tyranny. <snip>Right... give me a break..you make it sound like the government is nothing more than the mafia or something similar..your opinion or fact?

Access to undestroyed food like raw milk, vital to the health our of families, is not to be taken lightly, and is an issue of individual freedoms being taken away <snip>

well then move to the country and get yourself a cow and do what is right for your family instead of making it conveneint for yourself. If it was that imporant to you or others that are so adamant about their right to have raw milk, then you guys need to get an animal and milk it. Then we'd see how improtant it was to you. hmmm well don't you just think that you might be in the very minority here? Isn't this country suppose to be a democratic society... seems more and more we are just catering to the minorities that squeak the loudest. This resembles the same faction that would do away with the draft and military because their "rights" might just be infringed upon" Yet, the very reason they can shout their objections is because someone died so that they could. BUT oh how unfair it is....shez... yep, unfair it is especially for that man or woman that gave his /her life.

You might best serve this crusade by heading it up initiating the changes that you want because it certainly looks like it is in need of of someone that can articulate it well. You seem to have your ducks in a row, let's see you implement it. I'm not against raw milk, heck I sell it, as you well know. I'm against the definate methods that are wrong and the blantant disrespect for those that are making their way within the law.

charlene

> >Reply-To: RawDairy

MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access helps fight spam and pop-ups – now 2 months FREE!

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the history lesson and the inspiring quotes, . )

I'm glad I'm not the only one who is seeing parallels between the

gov't actions that precipitated the first American Revolution, and

the current gov't actions that bid fair to rival what our ancestors

endured.

~Joe

[Guest guest]

I fully understand your frustrations when you have spend much time,

money and effort to comply with regulations and you feel you are

competing with those who blatantly ignore all of the rules. My

husband is a licensed, insured and in construction and it is hard to

compete with the cheap illegals. But he is learning that there isn't

just one market. Those who hire the the illegals are getting exactly

what they pay for- cheap and quickly available. Those who hire him

get someone who does quality work and is around to warranty his work

if there is ever a problem.

There are many " milk markets " . Unfortunately there are those who

like the really cheap " milk " from the cow prisons. Some of those

people just need to be educated and some will never learn. There are

those who like to buy from a person with just 1 or 2 cows and like

the quaintness as well as the ability to support someone's milk

habit. This is the same type of market as the people who like to go

to small produce stands and farmers markets. There are also people

who would love to be able to buy quality, real milk that is

consistent from a full fledged business.

I would love to see the state stay far away the individual who has a

couple of gallons to sell. Individuals can make their own choices on

the health of the product. The larger dairies that sell commercially

could be regulated (preferably NOT by the government) since they are

farther removed from their final customers.

My DH and I have had many discussions about politics and have

discussed the presidential race and who is the lesser of two evils.

We have come to the decision that God has already decided the outcome

of the election, it's just up to us to show our hearts. Whoever God

selects as president will win, regardless of the party lable, major

or third. We are not concerned about " wasting our vote " and are

looking beyond all of those who are bought off

Lynn

My DH wants me to add:

One of the saddest things about this country is that everybody talks

about the constitution, but nobody reads it. Even fewer understand

it. If more people cared about the government breaking the law (the

constitution, the law that controls government), buying raw milk

would not be unlawfully forbidden by the government.

One more thing, the constitution only allows a constitutional

republic, not a democracy, and forced labor is slavery, even to the

government as in a draft or following bureacratic regulations. I am

sorry that I gave 8 years of my life in the military -where I took an

oath to uphold the constitution against enemies foreign and domestic

when nobody resepects it or reads it. Read it once, you might learn

something. Try some of the books the founding fathers wrote and not

just what people say about them.

Steve

[Guest guest]

From:  " charlene callicoat " <owner@l...>

Date:  Mon Jul 12, 2004  8:56 pm

Subject:  RE: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???

We all know that they came here to for religious freedom.. however, do

you realy think they intended on being British subject indefinately? 

Yes, they DID intend on being British subjects indefinitely. You are

misinformed if you think otherwise...the history is there for you to

read, check it out.

The little tea party was just the icing on the cake that in which they

demonstrated their *dislike* for the taxes imposed on them by the

British.

It was not a " little " tea party. It cost the British $75,000, back

then, a fortune. And it was not " icing on the cake. " it was the

beginning the the American Revolution. they were taxed without

representation in parliament. It would be like you never getting to

vote...never having a say in government at all, and they still taxed

the heck out of you...it was no small thing, nothing to be trivialized.

They were fighting for freedom <snip>  oh now we are talking about 

personal freedom???????? Gee didni't I say that somewhere?

Yes...umm...and nobody is denying you your personal freedom to have a

license to sell raw...is that what you mean?

sell raw milk without a license or permission...consciously or not,

they are recognizing that the current law is wrong, tyrannical, and

violates the principles of individual freedom and private property. 

<snip>  No they aren't , they are just " trying to justify breaking the

law "

The little farmers may not have thought it through, they may be simple

and may not be able to articulate it. but as I said, consciously or

subconsciously, they are recognize that it is wrong and are

protesting...but I can tell you are going to believe what you want

about their intentions, no matter what they tell you...my statement

stands.

What we have with our current health departments amounts to little more

than corruption and tyranny. <snip>Right... give me a break..you make

it sound like the government is nothing more than the mafia or

something similar..your opinion or fact?

Charlene, I have heard and seen and experienced a lot in my life, and

all evidence points to the fact that we have a corrupt government here

on our hands. It has become too large and too cumbersome. These

health departments in various states have violated people's rights all

over the place. My opinion or fact? Hmmmm, I would say....FACT! Just

ask Tim Wightman, Alta Dena Dairy, Aajonus Vonderplanitz, and scores of

others who know firsthand.

 Access to undestroyed food like raw milk, vital to the health our of

families, is not to be taken lightly, and is an issue of individual

freedoms being taken away <snip> 

well then move to the country and get yourself a cow and do what is

right for your family instead of making it conveneint for yourself. 

Why in the world would I want to make it inconvenient for myself to get

raw milk? When I believe the law is wrong on this in the first place?

NAY! I protest! And I buy raw milk illegally, because it is a

violation of my individual freedoms by this government to deny me

access to undestroyed food.

If it was that imporant to you or others that are so adamant about

their right to have raw milk, then you guys need to get an animal and

milk it.  Then we'd see how improtant it was to you.

No we don't have to bother with getting an animal to milk because there

are like-minded people out there who are perfectly happy to provide us

with it and who also believe that the law is wrong and this civil

disobedience is perfectly acceptable, get it?

hmmm well don't you just think that you might be in the very minority

here? Isn't this country suppose to be a democratic society... seems

more and more we are just catering to the minorities that squeak the

loudest.

I understand that sentiment and it can be frustrating. I don't think I

am in the minority of people who want raw milk and are willing to buy

it illegally. I would say that just about everyone on this list would

buy it illegally if it were the only source. And it seems to me that

you may have a basic misunderstanding of a free, democratic society. A

democratic republic such as ours was created yes, so that the majority

rules, but it is also fashioned in such a way so that the rights of the

minorities will be protected. It is not purely about majority rule.

If it was purely based on majority rule, the Sunni's in Iraq (being far

greater in number) would trample all over the rights of the Shiites now

that they are a democracy. A democratic republic is a system of laws

put in place for protection so that if the majority becomes corrupt,

the constitution will balance them out and allow for equal protection

under the law for the minority.

This resembles the same faction that would do away with the draft and

military because their " rights " might just be infringed upon "   Yet, the

very reason they can shout their objections    is because someone died

so that they could. BUT oh how unfair it is....shez... yep, unfair it

is especially for that man or woman that gave his /her life.

I sure don't want to do away with the military. You won't find a more

die-hard conservative than me...and I don't think it's unfair that

people gave their life for my freedom...I think it is noble.

You might best serve this crusade by heading it up initiating the

changes that you want because it certainly looks like it is in need of

of someone that can articulate it well. You seem to have your ducks in

a row, let's see you implement it.  I'm not against raw milk, heck I

sell it, as you well know. I'm against the definate methods that are

wrong and the blantant disrespect for those that are making their way

within the law.

I respect you for making your way within the law--absolutely. I

believe everyone on this list does. And modestly speaking, yes, I DO

have my ducks in a row, and I AM organizing change in my state of TN.

I am the person that is drafting a bill with a state representative and

a state senator and will be lobbying the state legislature with

hundreds of people working for me in the Fall of 2005. We are going to

be petitioning, joining the Farm Bureau to change their constitution

(which only endorses pasteurization), making phone calls, and sending

letters. I lecture on raw milk around the state at conferences and I

am even putting out a TV commercial on raw milk. There is a lot of

work ahead.

[Guest guest]

It's very interesting. We cannot see the big picture. So perhaps we cannot judge what is really right or wrong, or best for anyone, anything or our nation or the world. Even the "devil" and "evil" people have a valuable role in God's continually unfolding creation. What our government is doing is awful, but it may be playing a very key role in the unfolding of a much better world to come. Who of us can say? Perhaps it would be better to have King jr for an addition horrific 4 years if it somehow catalyzed profound change in us, our nation and the world, rather than Kerry, who some people might think couldn't be worse.(Even if he is better, in the long run it could be much worse)

Look what has happened to us. The health and diet of our nation has been in free fall, but we are being reawakened to the benefits and need of real, natural, whole and untampered with food, particularly raw dairy, here. Somehow, within the depths of catastrophe seeds of its redemption emerge and bring forth the needed fruit to bring things back into balance and harmony.

Just another line of thought further off track,

Tonio

My DH and I have had many discussions about politics and have discussed the presidential race and who is the lesser of two evils. We have come to the decision that God has already decided the outcome of the election, it's just up to us to show our hearts. Whoever God selects as president will win, regardless of the party lable, major or third. We are not concerned about "wasting our vote" and are looking beyond all of those who are bought offLynnMy DH wants me to add:One of the saddest things about this country is that everybody talks about the constitution, but nobody reads it. Even fewer understand it. If more people cared about the government breaking the law (the constitution, the law that controls government), buying raw milk would not be unlawfully forbidden by the government. One more thing, the constitution only allows a constitutional republic, not a democracy, and forced labor is slavery, even to the government as in a draft or following bureacratic regulations. I am sorry that I gave 8 years of my life in the military -where I took an oath to uphold the constitution against enemies foreign and domestic when nobody resepects it or reads it. Read it once, you might learn something. Try some of the books the founding fathers wrote and not just what people say about them. Steve

[Guest guest]

My grandparents were both from farms. Hence, my mom and dad, and all their

brothers and sisters had some farming experience. I remember my uncle lost

it when he began to lose his farm. He blamed it on himself and attempted

suicide. Few of my relatives farm now. That uncle lost his farm.

I became aware of inconsistencies in this country when I had kids and began

researching immunizations. The researched opened up a whole new realization

for me.

One of my sister's can't have babies. The other one has a complication known

as DVT (Deep Vein Thrombosis) I have a grandmother who die of Alzheimer's, a

brother-in-law with IBS (Irritable Bowel Syndrome), a father-in-law with

diabetes, and a step-grandfather who came down with Guillain Barre Syndrome

after a flu shot. None of these medical conditions are prevented by

vaccinations. Alzheimer's, some link to the mercury preservative previously

used in vaccinations and currently used in flu shots. GBS is directly linked

to the flu shot. The rest? I believe would all have been quite healthy if

they had raw milk available to them.

That's why I am here.

You know it's an election year and it's hard to keep the debating from

forums and all that. So if we refrain from personal attacks and just debate

the issues as they pertain to our freedoms (such as our freedom to buy

undestroyed foods) I don't see that there will be any harm done to this

forum. In fact it may increase our numbers!

Debating is such an educational tool for all who have the patience to endure

the boring parts. I am taking in everything I read and putting myself in the

place of all who offer participation.

I have a recommendation that we all consider a libertarian candidate and

offer to aid in whatever means we can afford...be it time or money...after

all, his political mission is what a true patriotic American wants. Please

check out this website and do some research and hopefully we will all come

to a unanimous conclusion about this candidate. I don't want to ruin any

election but I have seen his name in two of the organizations I belong to,

and they say he would definitely make a wave in the debates with his

intellectual skills and personal beliefs (in order for this to happen the

media will need to feel extreme pressure from us).

Libertarian Party Presidential Candidate for the 2004 election.

http://www.badnarik.org/

If you think he's a long shot, remember the internet is a powerful tool, and

some underestimate it's effectiveness in communication.

At the same time, I'd like to quote Tonio...

What our government is doing is awful, but it may be playing a very key role

in the unfolding of a much better world to come. Who of us can say? Perhaps

it would be better to have King jr for an addition horrific 4 years

if it somehow catalyzed profound change in us, our nation and the world,

rather than Kerry, who some people might think couldn't be worse.(Even if he

is better, in the long run it could be much worse)

...and preach that I've never seen such prime conditions for a

paradigm-shift/revolution in the population of our country. Whether it is

God's intention, a wise presidents attempt to right the wrong, or a very

stupid administration losing their grip on power, I would never want these

three things dismantled...The Right to bear arms, All the freedom that the

internet has to offer, and the continuing example of why big government is

bad!

and quote...

" The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do

nothing. "

-- Edmund Burke - (British statesman - 1756)

" They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety

deserve neither liberty nor safety. "

-- lin

" No government can be trusted, that does not trust its own people with

military-style arms of greater weight and power than those possessed by the

central government itself. "

- Vin Suprinowicz

I've always considered myself a liberal, but since this administration has

opened my eyes to the danger of " Special Interest Campaign contributions " ,

" Electronic Voting " , and " Globalization " , I find myself less...interested in

voting for a liberal candidate who might flex his power to promote these

issues...and more for " King Jr. " . I invite all retorts .

Tony

[Guest guest]

Oh one more thing. If you are in a jurisdiction that allows electronic

voting... vote absentee to make your vote count!

http://www.invisibleballots.com/

Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???

> I fully understand your frustrations when you have spend much time,

> money and effort to comply with regulations and you feel you are

> competing with those who blatantly ignore all of the rules. My

> husband is a licensed, insured and in construction and it is hard to

> compete with the cheap illegals. But he is learning that there isn't

> just one market. Those who hire the the illegals are getting exactly

> what they pay for- cheap and quickly available. Those who hire him

> get someone who does quality work and is around to warranty his work

> if there is ever a problem.

>

> There are many " milk markets " . Unfortunately there are those who

> like the really cheap " milk " from the cow prisons. Some of those

> people just need to be educated and some will never learn. There are

> those who like to buy from a person with just 1 or 2 cows and like

> the quaintness as well as the ability to support someone's milk

> habit. This is the same type of market as the people who like to go

> to small produce stands and farmers markets. There are also people

> who would love to be able to buy quality, real milk that is

> consistent from a full fledged business.

>

> I would love to see the state stay far away the individual who has a

> couple of gallons to sell. Individuals can make their own choices on

> the health of the product. The larger dairies that sell commercially

> could be regulated (preferably NOT by the government) since they are

> farther removed from their final customers.

>

> My DH and I have had many discussions about politics and have

> discussed the presidential race and who is the lesser of two evils.

> We have come to the decision that God has already decided the outcome

> of the election, it's just up to us to show our hearts. Whoever God

> selects as president will win, regardless of the party lable, major

> or third. We are not concerned about " wasting our vote " and are

> looking beyond all of those who are bought off

> Lynn

>

> My DH wants me to add:

> One of the saddest things about this country is that everybody talks

> about the constitution, but nobody reads it. Even fewer understand

> it. If more people cared about the government breaking the law (the

> constitution, the law that controls government), buying raw milk

> would not be unlawfully forbidden by the government.

>

> One more thing, the constitution only allows a constitutional

> republic, not a democracy, and forced labor is slavery, even to the

> government as in a draft or following bureacratic regulations. I am

> sorry that I gave 8 years of my life in the military -where I took an

> oath to uphold the constitution against enemies foreign and domestic

> when nobody resepects it or reads it. Read it once, you might learn

> something. Try some of the books the founding fathers wrote and not

> just what people say about them.

> Steve

>

>

>

>

>

> PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

> Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Danni-

I hesitate

to try and do any educating about raw milk certification in AZ for two reasons:

1) We aren’t there yet and I’m still learning all the requirements and, 2) A

lot is going to be up to the individual state inspector you end up talking

to/working with. I wish this weren’t

so but it’s my impression of the situation.

While we

have been working toward raw fluid milk certification for a year it might be

too strong to say we’ve been “working ON it”. That implies too much concerted effort on our part. We opened a dialog with our state ag

dept over a year ago. He told us of

some equipment requirements which we slowly have been working on acquiring. A couple of months ago we thought we

were getting close enough to open the discussion again and see if we couldn’t

seriously get going on selling raw milk.

In the mean time our original inspector – a 20+ year veteran of the

office - retired and was replaced by a different, brand new inspector. Everything he does is under the

microscope of the department head so now we are running into some new wrinkles

and twists. I honestly think that

they’re making most of what they are telling us up as they go with the intent

of making it confusing.

The point

is that there is a legal mechanism for selling raw milk here. It has worked fine in the past. Just because nobody has used it in a

while doesn’t mean that it isn’t still valid and certainly doesn’t mean that

they get to go back to the drawing board and invent something new, out of whole

cloth. That takes legislation, not

just some bureaucratic internal office memorandum. Our plan is to keep nipping away

at the silly new obstacles they keep throwing up and make them show us where

the law supports their positions.

As to your

question about cheese certification vs. fluid milk, it’s a good one and one we’re

still trying to get sorted out for ourselves. For one thing (as I understand it) we have two classes of

certification here: Grade “A”, and “other” (catchy title eh?). We, having had no need for a Grade A

certification to make and sell cheese, ended up with the Other

certification. This has no

reflection on our facilities, which were built to grade A standards, but more

relates to the equipment we had (and have). For example, we pasteurize the milk for our fresh cheeses. The pasteurizer (a tiny 15-gallon

jobby) is calibrated to 2°F accuracy.

For grade A fluid milk pasteurization a 1°F accuracy standard is required, therefore we could

not legally sell pasteurized fluid milk.

This

example, and several other similar ones are both indicative of why we are not

currently grade A, and also of the kind of silliness we are running into right

now. We need to be Grade A to

bottle milk (even raw milk) but have a non-grade A pasteurizer (which obviously

wouldn’t be used for raw milk) so we’re not grade A. Another example: The ag

dept is saying that we need to follow the PMO in a number of regards in order

to get the certification for raw milk. PMO is, of course, the PASTEURIZED Milk

Ordinance, which, in our interpretation, doesn’t really have anything to say on

the subject.

Anyway, we’re

committed to working this through the system to the best of our abilities and with

all of the resources we can muster. We think that is the only right and

up-front way to handle the situation.

We have discussed sidestepping the law or simply flouting it altogether but

feel strongly that any such action would be short-sighted and just plain

selfish. Heaven knows, it may come

to that at some point (and I’m sure we could get away with it) but without putting every effort into

trying to work within and change the system to something of which we can all

better take advantage - we would accomplish nothing of any real or lasting value.

Good luck

in your co-op efforts, but also consider meeting the challenge head-on and

working to make our raw milk requirements here more realistic and approachable

(or, dare I say, understandable and equitable??).

Heininger

Black Mesa Ranch

Snowflake,

Arizona USA

Farmstead Artisan Goat Cheeses

“The Flavor of the White Mountains”™

BlackMesaRanchOnline.com

Message: 6

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:26:51

-0700

From: " Danni "

Subject: RE: RE:

Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???

,

I'm glad you are

in Arizona and can give personal knowledge of how it

works here. Please tell me why you have been denied

certification to

sell raw

milk? To me your own post gives

the very evidence of why many

do not even

pursue the " legal " route.

You've been working on this for

almost a

year? How is it you can be

certified and qualified to sell

cheese but not

milk? I just don't get it (but am

trying hard to).

I have no

intention to sell raw milk illegally.

I am not a law breaker

by any

means! I am looking into the co-op

situation where people will

be drinking milk

from their own goats, but I won't do it without knowing

the legalities

and liabilities.

I am really glad

this discussion is going on. It's

a potential hotbed

discussion and I

think it's going really well!

Please please educate me

on this process

of becoming certified to sell raw milk!

And why are

there NO

certified dairies in AZ? Thanks

Danni Ackerman

Mighty Oak Farm

Nubian Goats

http://www.mightyoakfarm.com

<http://www.mightyoakfarm.com/>

Today's mighty

oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

[Guest guest]

for president! This is definitely not OT if we are interested in what it

takes to make nutritious milk available to all who desire it. We are just

finding (as I found with the Hunger Project www.thp.org) that the extent of what

it takes is more inclusive the more we get into it.

RE: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???

Charlene,

To escape from British rule was NOT the reason the founding fathers

came to America. They were the descendants of Puritans from the 1600's

who came for freedom of religion from the Church of England. For more

than fifty years before the Seven Years' War there was a strong

attachment between the two peoples--the US and England, and that the

thought of severing their bond of union was not entertained. It is true

that there was some complaining and small problems during that time.

But the proudest boast of the colonists was still that they were

Englishmen. It was not a silly little tax law that they were evading.

It was tyranny, it was oppression. They were fighting for freedom.

British soldiers could come into one's house and occupy it and demand

food and drink for free. Homes were burned, families were killed.

After 11 years of trying peaceful negotiations with King to rid

themselves of his " taxation without representation " in parliament, the

founding fathers decided NOT to work within the law of that corrupt

government and chose civil disobedience. When a government oppresses

it's people to the point of tyranny, we are fully justified in NOT

working within the law. The Boston Tea Party led by founding father

, was civil disobedience--it was BREAKING the law. Allow

me to quote from Hornberger, " In the late 1700s, the British

colonists suffered under the same type of oppressive regulations and

tax system that present-day Americans are suffering. What was the

reaction of the colonists to this regulatory and tax tyranny? They

deliberately chose to ignore and disobey their government's regulations

and tax acts. Smuggling and tax evasion were the order of the day! And

the more that their government tried to enforce the restrictions, the

more it met with disregard and disobedience from the citizenry...The

true patriot scrutinizes the actions of his own government with

unceasing vigilance. And when his government violates the morality and

rightness associated with principles of individual freedom and private

property, he immediately rises in opposition to his government. " This

is what is happening when small farms sell raw milk without a license

or permission...consciously or not, they are recognizing that the

current law is wrong, tyrannical, and violates the principles of

individual freedom and private property. What we have with our

current health departments amounts to little more than corruption and

tyranny. There have been many farms who have been run out of business,

as Terry cites, from unjust accusations and corrupt rules. This is

only one example of many. It is not to the point of taking up arms to

be sure, but it certainly calls for civil disobedience by going ahead

and selling raw milk. Civil disobedience can also peacefully bring it

before the courts and have the law changed. Access to undestroyed food

like raw milk, vital to the health our of families, is not to be taken

lightly, and is an issue of individual freedoms being taken away.

Allow me to quote some famous people, some of whom were founding

fathers, and these all apply to the raw milk situation:

" In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave,

hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join

him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot. " -- Clemens,

author, writing under the pen name " Mark Twain "

" To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men. " --

Abraham Lincoln

" ...it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate,

tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds... " --

Adam

" We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage

where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the

citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest

periods of human history, the stage of rule by brute force. " [Ayn Rand,

The Nature of Government]

" Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to

take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a

government grows, liberty decreases. " -- Jefferson

" If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude

better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace.

We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which

feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity

forget ye were our countrymen. " --

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of

chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course

others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

Henry 1775

[Guest guest]

I agree with this Kristi. we need to remember that raw dairy encompasses people

from

ALL political viewpoints and to go around offending each other politically

doesn't help our

cause--it creates disunity aand bad feelings.

> Calling our President names is also inappropriate

> (King Jr.). I personally find it offensive. I

> don't allow my children to call people names, and I

> surely would prefer not to hear adults do it. Even

> though I did not agree with Clinton's views on most

> issues, and found his behaviour reprehensible, I still

> had respect for the fact that he was the president,

> and made sure that my children and family did not call

> him names.

>

> I understand that we all have different political

> views. And I am a true patriotic american, but I am

> not and will not be either a libertarian or a liberal.

>

[Guest guest]

Ok,

This is me with my moderator hat on. (I'll probably hear a comment that it was actually a warden's hat!) Charlene and , and anyone else who wants to keep pursuing this particular thread about how America separated from England, please take it off list. I don't want to see this on the list again. It has run on long enough and it's tiresome now.

Don't make me turn the car around! ;-)

Sara

[Guest guest]

HAHA! My first act as President would be to issue an executve order that ALL raw

milk

sales are now legal. Then I would clean house at the FDA, then at the USDA.

Wow, would

there be some changes. The IRS would be abolished and the tax code would be

simplified

down to one line. Let's see what else...teehee, just dreaming.

Anyway, actually, I have too many skeletons in my closet for a presidential run.

But ya

know, my husband has brought up me running for some office of some kind. But

with 2

small children and homeschooling...I would never have time. I would also need a

law

degree of some sort..I don't know...Phyllis Schlafly did it post-children..why

not me, right?

> for president! This is definitely not OT if we are interested in what

it takes to

make nutritious milk available to all who desire it. We are just finding (as I

found with the

Hunger Project www.thp.org) that the extent of what it takes is more inclusive

the more we

get into it.

[Guest guest]

Tonio, do you ever cease to bring a smile to my face? I don't think

so...Anyway, yes I know you have freedom of speech, and I don't want to

be bossy, tellin people what not to talk about and such, but I only

said that below because it's just that whenever presidential politics

are mentioned on these lists, it just opens up such potential for wayyy

OT discussions and also creates the desire to flame people, a desire

that some are not very good at resisting.

I know you were just being funny...I don't really worry about it...my

skin has become a lot thicker by being on these lists. I just hate

seeing you get in twubble, either from our lovely moderator or someone

else who gets unhappy...

On Jul 13, 2004, at 6:23 PM, RawDairy wrote:

> Message: 24

> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:13:58 -0400

>

> Subject: Re: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???

>

> Excuse me ladies, but whatever happened to my right to free speech

> around here.

> 1. I was and believe that being an American gives me the right to make

> comments about our political candidates or anything else.

> 2. Bush is jr and I added King because he has been

> inappropriately extending his presidential powers beyond the

> constitutionally intended parameters. So I thought it appropriate. And

> hardly calling him names. It's a form of humor or satire called irony.

> I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone. I personally find both major

> candidates very distasteful.

>

> If you are merely expressing your displeasure with what you read,

> that's fine. But calling it inappropriate seems a bit judgemental to

> me.

>

> And yes, I know I went a little overboard with Charlene a while back.

> I felt bad about that. Despite any difference of opinion we may have,

> which is considerable, she strikes me as a very sincere and caring

> person which counts far more than any disagreement.

>

> Imperfect and with perennial foot in mouth,

> Tonio

[Guest guest]

Whoah Sara, What has happened to Freedom of Speech.....I thought things were going very nicely and inspite of a few little quirks, going very well. Besides I haven't seen a post about America's separation for a long while. If you are going to point fingers, please do so at ALL the right people. That was very wrong of you.

Charlene

> >Reply-To: RawDairy >To: <RawDairy > >Subject: Re: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? >Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:15:38 -0500 > >Ok, > This is me with my moderator hat on. (I'll probably hear a comment that it was actually a warden's hat!) Charlene and , and anyone else who wants to keep pursuing this particular thread about how America separated from England, please take it off list. I don't want to see this on the list again. It has run on long enough and it's tiresome now. > Don't make me turn the car around! ;-) >Sara MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download!

[Guest guest]

Well that's not nearly as bad as stopping the car THAT's when you know you're really in trouble :-)

Danni AckermanMighty Oak Farm Nubian Goatshttp://www.mightyoakfarm.comToday's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

Don't make me turn the car around! ;-)

Sara