Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???

[Guest guest]

Starlene--

You are a "Cottage Industry" and not a full dairy operation. Here is where your regulations will be.

You are not going to distribute to the General Public or market your product in retail stores. Your sales are Private off-the-farm. As such, I would let people bring their own containers, and fill them from something you have refrigerated.

Some soul in Utah just has her few customers sign a release, saying they take full responsibility for knowing the Dangers and Benefits of drinking Raw Goat Milk, and are willing to take that Health Risk under their Constitutional Right to Choose. Make 2wo copies.

That's it.

They make it so complicated because they don't want the state to be liable if you don't know what you are doing, and somebody makes a big deal out of whatever. When you are "trading" it for another thing with your neighbors, they have no control over that. Make your transactions legally the same, and there is no problem.

Some others put up a sign that they Sell for Petfood Only, but my favorite is to simply ask for a Love Offering. Works every time, as it is used every day by religious organizations and those who speak in those environments. For them it's a matter of No Taxes, but it works none the less.

--Terry

Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???

Hi everyone,Okay, so I've only begun to learn about the benefits of raw milk in the lastcouple of months, even though we've been drinking our own raw goat's milkfor two years now. I didn't know exactly what a health benefit this hasbeen until just recently. I mean, I realize the benefits of eating food onehas raised oneself, I just didn't realize how *bad* P/H milk is incomparison to raw, etc.We only have two goats in milk now, and are already experiencing an excessof milk so would like to be able to provide to others. We expect to havethree in milk by next spring. I'm wondering though about what a personshould do to feel "ready". Reading about 's raw milk coop, itseems there is a *lot* that one should be doing in order to provide rawmilk. I have been approached by two persons who would like to purchase rawmilk, but I'm hesitant because I'd like to know I'm doing everything Ishould to provide safe milk. One woman's husband has ulcers and they arecurrently buying goat's milk from the store by the quart, which I understandtastes pretty bad (not to mention the other "badness" about it beingcommercially processed, etc.). I know raw goat's milk would be better, notto mention they would not have to pay $12 gallon for ours...realmilk.org says that AZ allows for the sale of raw milk. I went to theArizona state site that details all the "requirements" for selling raw milk*legally*. I have to admit I was overwhelmed by all the details -- I*think* the requirements include having a Grade A Certified dairy which Iknow will cost "tens of thousands of dollars".I am comfortable that the way we handle our milk is sanitary, our milktastes sweet and clean. But how differently should we handle the milk inorder to make it available to others?Should we have our milk tested? I know that AZ is tuberculosis-free andbrucelliosis-free, but should I have a test done on our milk just to be ableto show proof that we are free of those diseases? How often should we testfor these two diseases - once a year, or one time only?Are there other things we should test for?'s provider chills the milk within 10 minutes in a cooling vat. Iknow there is a device which costs about $30, a "chilling wand" which wouldcool the milk fast; in the meantime, we chill our milk with ice and water.(Anyone know where to purchase one of these "chilling wands"?)Is it necessary to have a milking parlor, or do folks just milk in the barnor outdoors? Do your consumers care?Something else is we couldn't do straight grass fed, we live in the desert,have to haul our own water and it would be cost prohibitive to try to plantgrass/hay on our land and water the entire thing by hauling tanks of water.Our milking goats need a "concentrated" feed when in milk, which means theydo get grain at milking time along with free access to as much alfalfa hayas they can consume.What type of containers would/should/do you use? To provide for my motherand sister, I've been using 2 liter soda bottles/1 liter water bottles(although since we are trying to break the soda "habit" the supply of 2liter bottles is dwindling). Originally we were using glass milk bottles.One of our local grocery stores had its Horizon quarts of milk marked downto $0.50 so we bought all 16 bottles. But those glass bottles don'ttolerate freezing well. We ended up breaking several.Is it better to use glass or can we use plastic? One person told me (onanother list) that she buys drinking water by the gallon, (she said 3/$1 butit's at least $0.50/gallon everywhere I've looked) gives the water to hergoats and then fills those plastic jugs with milk. Then another person saidthat the gallon jugs used for water were different from a plastic milk jug.I managed to find a place online that sells plastic dairy gallon jugs/lidsfor $0.55 each. Another person suggested finding a company that bottleswater in my area and seeing where they get their bottles, or if I couldpurchase some of their bottles from them. But again, would the "water"bottles be different from a milk container?Or do you just say to the potential consumer this is how we handle our milk,and this is the cost, and then go from there?Maybe we need to do a goat "share", how complicated does that get?And although I hate to admit it, I'm a little bit worried about being"reported" for selling raw milk, or being blamed if someone gets sick. Iguess one has to have faith in one's fellow person. I know one person whohas her "not personally known" customers sign a waiver that the milk willnot be used for human consumption.I would be happy to compile a FAQ of sorts with the replies I receive forRawDairy files if we don't have one already on the topic of "getting ready".Anyway, these are just some questions. I'd love any input or comments.Thanks in advance.Regards,Starlene

[Guest guest]

> 's provider chills the milk within 10 minutes in a cooling vat.

> I

> know there is a device which costs about $30, a " chilling wand " which

> would

> cool the milk fast; in the meantime, we chill our milk with ice and water.

> (Anyone know where to purchase one of these " chilling wands " ?)

@ blackmesaranchonline.com uses them. I never did ask her where

she got them from but I'm sure she'd be happy to share the information.

Her email is:

goats@...

Just let her know I directed you to her. They produce a wonderful tasting

cheese, however it is not made from raw milk.

> What type of containers would/should/do you use? To provide for my mother

> and sister, I've been using 2 liter soda bottles/1 liter water bottles

> (although since we are trying to break the soda " habit " the supply of 2

> liter bottles is dwindling). Originally we were using glass milk bottles.

> One of our local grocery stores had its Horizon quarts of milk marked down

> to $0.50 so we bought all 16 bottles. But those glass bottles don't

> tolerate freezing well. We ended up breaking several.

I use glass canning jars and as long as you leave about an inch of head

room I've yet to have one break. Usually I leave a bit less of head room.

I did leave one in once that was completely full and yes, they do break

that way.

> I managed to find a place online that sells plastic dairy gallon jugs/lids

> for $0.55 each. Another person suggested finding a company that bottles

> water in my area and seeing where they get their bottles, or if I could

> purchase some of their bottles from them. But again, would the " water "

> bottles be different from a milk container?

>

I know a lot of the online places do discounts on their milk jugs if you

buy is a larger quantity. I'd consider once we have more goats in milk

going in on this with you. I can't remember what part of the valley you

are in but I like to make trips there on and off and could just schedule

one for the weekend after the jugs arrive. I'll scan the catalogs I have

at home and see what kind of deals we could get and let you know.

>

> Anyway, these are just some questions. I'd love any input or comments.

> Thanks in advance.

>

> Regards,

> Starlene

>

[Guest guest]

Starlene,

What a great idea! If you would set up a file in " Files " on " Getting

Ready " for new farmer-sellers, that would be terrific! A valuable addition

to our ever-growing resources here (and people would have to be DAFT to

leave the group and the resources! Ha!)

I am assuming you have already checked out the sample/model share

contracts in " Files " ? You certainly could refuse to sell to people that

just strike you as " off. " There are a few, shall we call them bad apples,

who are just plain nasty and go around looking to make trouble for others.

Go with your gut. Make it a point to visit with the potential customer, to

see what her/his interest in milk is (i.e. getting raw milk for an autistic

child vs. " just trying it to see if we like it " and how invested the person

is in the raw milk movement.

Not to scare you off, but here is my actual experience. (Minnesota

allows " on farm sales " but still the State like to harass farmers for

selling raw milk. Gov't and the public are just plain NERVOUS about the

fact there's always a few people selling and drinking raw milk.)

One time DH got pretty sick. Normally he avoids the doctor like the

plague, but obviously he was sick enough to actually seek a doctor out and

to demand antibiotics. Never mind my input that he probably had a viral

illness. The doctor determined he might have had food poisoning. He was

probably compelled to " report it " to the State (which he didn't inform DH

about.) Next day, DH got a call from the State! (Dept of Health? Dept of

Agriculture?) First or second question was " Did/do you drink raw milk? " At

that time of the call, we hadn't started yet but had plans to get our first

gallon of the real McCoy. He was asked all kind of questions, like if he

had eaten at a salad bar in a resturant, etc. Needless to say we were

nerved up after that call, but we were committed to our plan of action.

Now DH is fully committed after a very telling incident. He'd

occasionally rib me about us having raw milk (he used to make noises about

me going for 1/2 hr round trip to pick up milk the farmer actually DELIVERS

from out of town). His mom is the " hostest with the mostest, " with a big

fancy always-immaculate house looking just like one from " Better Homes &

Gardens " with a veritable spread of food at gatherings, complete with a

mini-store of drinks. Well from the last family gathering she hosted,

everybody got SICK! Everyone, that is but US! DH, me, our kids. We were

fine, everyone else were sick to their tummy, throwing up and having what DH

so elegantly puts as " the runs. " No one could point to one common dish (I

had brought nothing. She never says " ok " when I offer to bring a dish to

share. I was certainly glad I hadn't this time around, if I had, guess

which dish would have been blamed for the illness outbreak?! Yup, mine!) DH

when he found out, delighted in his call to his parents, " Hey we must be

doing something right by eating raw fish (sushi) and drinking raw milk! "

Some people on this list have commented that raw milk drinkers are sold

on raw milk. Usually by the time they come to the point of drinking raw

milk, they have done their research and are comfortable with their decision

to pursue something that most people just will not. You will want to assure

yourself that each customer you take on is someone you would trust. Trust

goes both ways here...the customer trusts you to give her clean properly

handled milk and you trust that the customer will handle the milk right

(proper, clean containers if supplied by customer).

You could always consider asking for donations, instead of money. That

gets you off the hook for anything. At least, that's my understanding and

interpretation of that. Good luck, I am sure you will do great!!

Sara

Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???

> Hi everyone,

>

> Okay, so I've only begun to learn about the benefits of raw milk in the

last

> couple of months, even though we've been drinking our own raw goat's milk

> for two years now. I didn't know exactly what a health benefit this has

> been until just recently. I mean, I realize the benefits of eating food

one

> has raised oneself, I just didn't realize how *bad* P/H milk is in

> comparison to raw, etc.

>

> We only have two goats in milk now, and are already experiencing an excess

> of milk so would like to be able to provide to others. We expect to have

> three in milk by next spring. I'm wondering though about what a person

> should do to feel " ready " . Reading about 's raw milk coop, it

> seems there is a *lot* that one should be doing in order to provide raw

> milk. I have been approached by two persons who would like to purchase

raw

> milk, but I'm hesitant because I'd like to know I'm doing everything I

> should to provide safe milk. One woman's husband has ulcers and they are

> currently buying goat's milk from the store by the quart, which I

understand

> tastes pretty bad (not to mention the other " badness " about it being

> commercially processed, etc.). I know raw goat's milk would be better,

not

> to mention they would not have to pay $12 gallon for ours...

>

> realmilk.org says that AZ allows for the sale of raw milk. I went to the

> Arizona state site that details all the " requirements " for selling raw

milk

> *legally*. I have to admit I was overwhelmed by all the details -- I

> *think* the requirements include having a Grade A Certified dairy which I

> know will cost " tens of thousands of dollars " .

>

> I am comfortable that the way we handle our milk is sanitary, our milk

> tastes sweet and clean. But how differently should we handle the milk in

> order to make it available to others?

>

> Should we have our milk tested? I know that AZ is tuberculosis-free and

> brucelliosis-free, but should I have a test done on our milk just to be

able

> to show proof that we are free of those diseases? How often should we

test

> for these two diseases - once a year, or one time only?

>

> Are there other things we should test for?

>

> 's provider chills the milk within 10 minutes in a cooling vat.

I

> know there is a device which costs about $30, a " chilling wand " which

would

> cool the milk fast; in the meantime, we chill our milk with ice and water.

> (Anyone know where to purchase one of these " chilling wands " ?)

>

> Is it necessary to have a milking parlor, or do folks just milk in the

barn

> or outdoors? Do your consumers care?

>

> Something else is we couldn't do straight grass fed, we live in the

desert,

> have to haul our own water and it would be cost prohibitive to try to

plant

> grass/hay on our land and water the entire thing by hauling tanks of

water.

> Our milking goats need a " concentrated " feed when in milk, which means

they

> do get grain at milking time along with free access to as much alfalfa hay

> as they can consume.

>

> What type of containers would/should/do you use? To provide for my mother

> and sister, I've been using 2 liter soda bottles/1 liter water bottles

> (although since we are trying to break the soda " habit " the supply of 2

> liter bottles is dwindling). Originally we were using glass milk bottles.

> One of our local grocery stores had its Horizon quarts of milk marked down

> to $0.50 so we bought all 16 bottles. But those glass bottles don't

> tolerate freezing well. We ended up breaking several.

>

> Is it better to use glass or can we use plastic? One person told me (on

> another list) that she buys drinking water by the gallon, (she said 3/$1

but

> it's at least $0.50/gallon everywhere I've looked) gives the water to her

> goats and then fills those plastic jugs with milk. Then another person

said

> that the gallon jugs used for water were different from a plastic milk

jug.

> I managed to find a place online that sells plastic dairy gallon jugs/lids

> for $0.55 each. Another person suggested finding a company that bottles

> water in my area and seeing where they get their bottles, or if I could

> purchase some of their bottles from them. But again, would the " water "

> bottles be different from a milk container?

>

> Or do you just say to the potential consumer this is how we handle our

milk,

> and this is the cost, and then go from there?

>

> Maybe we need to do a goat " share " , how complicated does that get?

>

> And although I hate to admit it, I'm a little bit worried about being

> " reported " for selling raw milk, or being blamed if someone gets sick. I

> guess one has to have faith in one's fellow person. I know one person who

> has her " not personally known " customers sign a waiver that the milk will

> not be used for human consumption.

>

> I would be happy to compile a FAQ of sorts with the replies I receive for

> RawDairy files if we don't have one already on the topic of " getting

ready " .

>

> Anyway, these are just some questions. I'd love any input or comments.

> Thanks in advance.

>

> Regards,

> Starlene

>

>

>

>

> PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

> Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I love when I eat something and others that eat it get sick from it. I was

sold on raw milk the second I tasted it, so was my daughter. We had less

than 1/2 cup to taste from the first time but my fiance kept giving us a

hard time because for the next couple of hours we kept commenting to each

other about how good it was, how sweet and creamy.

My grandmother did raw milk based on donations for years and years in

California. She never had a shortage of customers that always gave the

recommended amount for the donation, a lot of them gave higher amounts

because without the raw milk their children possibly would have died. She

has a number of children that were declining so quickly until they started

the raw milk that the doctors had given the parents estimated lifespans on

these kids, a lot of them it was less than a month, but when that month

was up the kids were practically completely turned around, some of them

still needed to gain a bit more weight but otherwise their health

conditions were gone.

When I start " selling " raw milk I'm either going to go with a goat share

or a donation basis. My goal is to have a legal dairy at some point where

I can sell to all of those in and around the area that desire to drink

real milk.

Roxanna

Show Low, AZ

> You could always consider asking for donations, instead of money.

> That

> gets you off the hook for anything. At least, that's my understanding and

> interpretation of that. Good luck, I am sure you will do great!!

> Sara

>

[Guest guest]

Here's the thing about the MilkJugs as others will likely tell you.... You do not want to get into being responsible in any way for those things, other than what you yourself put the raw milk into. And I'm a Consumer saying this....

The lovely blue ones our group purchased were an absolute pain to clean. They would sit there still all damp inside after 24 hrs! and the fat would cling to it like a film. We tried everything, but were afraid to share that with the person responsible, who was pulling her hair out rewashing them. And don't you have enough work to do than clean out somebody else's milk jugs?

If you want to provide something for those who come "unprepared", we've gone to the super cheap milk gallons like in the store. It just has to get them home, where they are then responsible for it, not you. I think they're 25 cent @. You may want to provide a flyer for first-time customers telling them what to expect, and how to handle raw goats milk. This will save you excess chatting when it is not really convenient for you.

If you allow people to milk your goats, I think there is More Liability, and unless you want to feature that, like a summer camp, which will put you under an Insured Liability, I might keep that very "under-the-radar". I'm pretty dense about farm-life, but I remember they do kick sometimes under strange hands.

Arizona is much like Ohio, in that we barely have free elections.... so who knows what bug will bite some politician some day.

--Terry

Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???

Hi Roxanna,I was planning to email ... she's the one that told me about that"wand". :-)> > know there is a device which costs about $30, a "chilling wand" which> > would> > cool the milk fast; in the meantime, we chill our milk with ice andwater.> > (Anyone know where to purchase one of these "chilling wands"?)> @ blackmesaranchonline.com uses them. I never did ask her where> she got them from but I'm sure she'd be happy to share the information.> Her email is:> goats@...> Just let her know I directed you to her. They produce a wonderful tasting> cheese, however it is not made from raw milk.I have heard lots of raves about their cheeses. :-)> > What type of containers would/should/do you use? To provide for mymother> > and sister, I've been using 2 liter soda bottles/1 liter water bottles> > (although since we are trying to break the soda "habit" the supply of 2> > liter bottles is dwindling). Originally we were using glass milkbottles.> > One of our local grocery stores had its Horizon quarts of milk markeddown> > to $0.50 so we bought all 16 bottles. But those glass bottles don't> > tolerate freezing well. We ended up breaking several.>> I use glass canning jars and as long as you leave about an inch of head> room I've yet to have one break. Usually I leave a bit less of head room.> I did leave one in once that was completely full and yes, they do break> that way.Thanks for the information on these.> > I managed to find a place online that sells plastic dairy gallonjugs/lids> > for $0.55 each. Another person suggested finding a company that bottles> > water in my area and seeing where they get their bottles, or if I could> > purchase some of their bottles from them. But again, would the "water"> > bottles be different from a milk container?> >> I know a lot of the online places do discounts on their milk jugs if you> buy is a larger quantity. I'd consider once we have more goats in milk> going in on this with you. I can't remember what part of the valley you> are in but I like to make trips there on and off and could just schedule> one for the weekend after the jugs arrive. I'll scan the catalogs I have> at home and see what kind of deals we could get and let you know.Great! I'm in Maricopa... I think you are northeast of Phoenix? I am inPhoenix 3-4 days a week. From what I could tell at the one place it wascheaper to have the jugs shipped to Phoenix than to an outlying area.Thanks!Starlene

[Guest guest]

Listen...

If you're doing somebody the huge favor of taking it to the workplace.... these are Friends, not Customers. If somebody takes home-made baked goods, or makes somebody a special cake for a few dollars, they don't expect you to have a vendors license. Now at the Farmers Market it's a very big deal for our ODA, and I would not do it, unless it was Cheese or Yogurt, which they aren't going to test, believe me.

Some guy in Southern Ohio who (are you ready) works for the Health Department, supplies his co-workers with RawMilk at the office, And we've got a lady in Pierpont running a full-fledged Restaurant on the love offering basis.... and this was on the local News!.

Don't worry about it. Just keep it within the Love Offering/ Donation/ Friend Favor area and you cannot be prosecuted or "Processed" by the $Powers that Be. If you go for a Dairy License, well then legally it becomes another thing....

And as more people become Bold and insist on their Freedom To Choose, it will never become a problem for either side. Notice this is what's holding up in the courts... and how we Won in Colorado.

We've had Great Stories on this topic. I've saved quite a few of the responses. Thanks Everybody.

--Terry

Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???

A good portion of the year we get eggs on a donation basis. I'd love to beable to just go over to the persons house and get them when I needed themand leave the donation.RoxannaShow Low, AZ> Hi Terry,>> Thanks for the information! So... what happens if they don't actually> come> out to our property? I mean, like if I brought the milk into the city> (where I work 3-4 days a week). Would that cause problems?>> I'm liking that "Love Offering" idea. :-) We've often wished we could do> something like that with eggs. Just have a fridge out front with a box to> put donations into. :-)>Thanks so much!> Starlene>> Starlene--> You are a "Cottage Industry" and not a full dairy operation. Here is> where> your regulations will be.> You are not going to distribute to the General Public or market your> product> in retail stores. Your sales are Private off-the-farm. As such, I would> let people bring their own containers, and fill them from something you> have> refrigerated.>> Some soul in Utah just has her few customers sign a release, saying they> take full responsibility for knowing the Dangers and Benefits of drinking> Raw Goat Milk, and are willing to take that Health Risk under their> Constitutional Right to Choose. Make 2wo copies.> That's it.>> They make it so complicated because they don't want the state to be liable> if you don't know what you are doing, and somebody makes a big deal out of> whatever. When you are "trading" it for another thing with your> neighbors,> they have no control over that. Make your transactions legally the same,> and there is no problem.>> Some others put up a sign that they Sell for Petfood Only, but my favorite> is to simply ask for a Love Offering. Works every time, as it is used> every> day by religious organizations and those who speak in those environments.> For them it's a matter of No Taxes, but it works none the less.> --Terry

> ----- Original Message -----> From: Starlene >>Hi everyone,>Okay, so I've only begun to learn about the benefits of raw milk in the> last....

[Guest guest]

goat's milk would be better, not> to mention they would not have to pay $12 gallon for ours...Remember to figure out exactly how much it is costing you to produce this milk (time, feed, etc) so that you don't end up working for $1 an hour!> > > > But how differently should we handle the milk in> order to make it available to others? Most important is to cool it quickly and be able to store in a cold place the amount you want to pass on to others.> > Should we have our milk tested? I know that AZ is tuberculosis-free and> brucelliosis-free, but should I have a test done on our milk just to be able> to show proof that we are free of those diseases? How often should we test> for these two diseases - once a year, or one time only? You can see if you can have your milk tested at the same place the grade A dairies do. They tell you SCC, SPC or something that has to do with bacteria and how clean you are and butterfat. Or you can sign up with DHIA and test once a month and have all that stuff too. The diseases you mentioned would mean having a vet come do a herd check and blood work.> > Are there other things we should test for?> > 's provider chills the milk within 10 minutes in a cooling vat. I> know there is a device which costs about $30, a "chilling wand" which would> cool the milk fast; in the meantime, we chill our milk with ice and water.> (Anyone know where to purchase one of these "chilling wands"?) I think Ice water probably is fine. We have to haul all our water here where we are in Alaska and we milk and pour into 3 gallon SS totes and place them in a freezer. Not sure how quickly the milk cools, but it tastes great and everyone really likes it.> > Is it necessary to have a milking parlor, or do folks just milk in the barn> or outdoors? Do your consumers care? We have a small barn room with plywood walls and linoleum floor with a milk stand and shelf with scale and paper towels and teat dip. Not the cleanest place due to dust and stuff but it is nice in the summer heat and winter cold and when it rains.> > Something else is we couldn't do straight grass fed, we live in the desert,> have to haul our own water and it would be cost prohibitive to try to plant> grass/hay on our land and water the entire thing by hauling tanks of water.> Our milking goats need a "concentrated" feed when in milk, which means they> do get grain at milking time along with free access to as much alfalfa hay> as they can consume. You need to figure what is the best way for YOU to do things and make sure your customers understand that in your situation this is the best for the goats and they have the privelage to raw milk.> > What type of containers would/should/do you use? To provide for my mother> and sister, I've been using 2 liter soda bottles/1 liter water bottles> (although since we are trying to break the soda "habit" the supply of 2> liter bottles is dwindling). Originally we were using glass milk bottles.> One of our local grocery stores had its Horizon quarts of milk marked down> to $0.50 so we bought all 16 bottles. But those glass bottles don't> tolerate freezing well. We ended up breaking several. Have the customer bring glass containers to you. Make it their responsibility and suggest where to get them. We suggest wide mouth 1/2 gallon canning jars or wide mouth gallon ones as they are easy to pour into and clean. When freezing in glass just don't full to the top to allow for ice expansion.> > > Or do you just say to the potential consumer this is how we handle our milk,> and this is the cost, and then go from there? Yes this is the way to do it. If you are confident then your customers will either leave becasue they don't like it or be happy and accept it!> > Maybe we need to do a goat "share", how complicated does that get? Goat Shares are really not complicated. Just use one of the ones in the files and make it suit your situation. Have your customers sign it and then do business as you see fit.> > And although I hate to admit it, I'm a little bit worried about being> "reported" for selling raw milk, or being blamed if someone gets sick. I> guess one has to have faith in one's fellow person. I know one person who> has her "not personally known" customers sign a waiver that the milk will> not be used for human consumption. Most people who come looking for raw milk are wanting raw milk for a reason and are very happy to find it. But definately include something in your contract that says they are responsible for using the milk and whatever comes from it. If your you would like to see our contract email me at drmbj@... and I can send it to you.> > Rhonda

Cranberry Ridge FarmPalmer Alaska> > >

[Guest guest]

Hi Roxanna,

I was planning to email ... she's the one that told me about that

" wand " . :-)

> > know there is a device which costs about $30, a " chilling wand " which

> > would

> > cool the milk fast; in the meantime, we chill our milk with ice and

water.

> > (Anyone know where to purchase one of these " chilling wands " ?)

> @ blackmesaranchonline.com uses them. I never did ask her where

> she got them from but I'm sure she'd be happy to share the information.

> Her email is:

> goats@...

> Just let her know I directed you to her. They produce a wonderful tasting

> cheese, however it is not made from raw milk.

I have heard lots of raves about their cheeses. :-)

> > What type of containers would/should/do you use? To provide for my

mother

> > and sister, I've been using 2 liter soda bottles/1 liter water bottles

> > (although since we are trying to break the soda " habit " the supply of 2

> > liter bottles is dwindling). Originally we were using glass milk

bottles.

> > One of our local grocery stores had its Horizon quarts of milk marked

down

> > to $0.50 so we bought all 16 bottles. But those glass bottles don't

> > tolerate freezing well. We ended up breaking several.

>

> I use glass canning jars and as long as you leave about an inch of head

> room I've yet to have one break. Usually I leave a bit less of head room.

> I did leave one in once that was completely full and yes, they do break

> that way.

Thanks for the information on these.

> > I managed to find a place online that sells plastic dairy gallon

jugs/lids

> > for $0.55 each. Another person suggested finding a company that bottles

> > water in my area and seeing where they get their bottles, or if I could

> > purchase some of their bottles from them. But again, would the " water "

> > bottles be different from a milk container?

> >

> I know a lot of the online places do discounts on their milk jugs if you

> buy is a larger quantity. I'd consider once we have more goats in milk

> going in on this with you. I can't remember what part of the valley you

> are in but I like to make trips there on and off and could just schedule

> one for the weekend after the jugs arrive. I'll scan the catalogs I have

> at home and see what kind of deals we could get and let you know.

Great! I'm in Maricopa... I think you are northeast of Phoenix? I am in

Phoenix 3-4 days a week. From what I could tell at the one place it was

cheaper to have the jugs shipped to Phoenix than to an outlying area.

Thanks!

Starlene

[Guest guest]

Hi Terry,

Thanks for the information! So... what happens if they don't actually come

out to our property? I mean, like if I brought the milk into the city

(where I work 3-4 days a week). Would that cause problems?

I'm liking that " Love Offering " idea. :-) We've often wished we could do

something like that with eggs. Just have a fridge out front with a box to

put donations into. :-)

Thanks so much!

Starlene

Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???

Hi everyone,

Okay, so I've only begun to learn about the benefits of raw milk in the

last

[Guest guest]

A good portion of the year we get eggs on a donation basis. I'd love to be

able to just go over to the persons house and get them when I needed them

and leave the donation.

Roxanna

Show Low, AZ

> Hi Terry,

>

> Thanks for the information! So... what happens if they don't actually

> come

> out to our property? I mean, like if I brought the milk into the city

> (where I work 3-4 days a week). Would that cause problems?

>

> I'm liking that " Love Offering " idea. :-) We've often wished we could do

> something like that with eggs. Just have a fridge out front with a box to

> put donations into. :-)

>

> Thanks so much!

> Starlene

>

> Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???

>

>

> Hi everyone,

>

> Okay, so I've only begun to learn about the benefits of raw milk in the

> last

>

>

>

>

>

> PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!

> Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Starlene,

I think this waiver is EXCELLENT! That way, if they claim to have

gotten sick, you have a copy of the waiver that says they told you they

would not drink it. They will have violated their own promise. Also,

with regards to goat shares, there are several contracts posted in the

files section of this group...it takes away liability also as it's the

customer's own milk...I am not sure if the waiver and the share

contract could be used together though...maybe they could.

On Jul 9, 2004, at 1:47 PM, RawDairy wrote:

> And although I hate to admit it, I'm a little bit worried about being

> " reported " for selling raw milk, or being blamed if someone gets sick.

> I

> guess one has to have faith in one's fellow person. I know one person

> who

> has her " not personally known " customers sign a waiver that the milk

> will

> not be used for human consumption.

[Guest guest]

I am a state employee.

I swore to up hold the Laws.

OK

NO Problem,

I have more real milk than I can use, I'd like to share it.

So, I tried, but the state said I did not fall into their

juristriction because I only had one dairy animal. They would not

work with me, but I could not sell milk, I can not, in most cases,

give it away either*.

AND SO,

People must STEAL the milk from me.

- I can only control my own behavior,

Health concious thieves, -imagine that!

-sally

*I am allowed to SHARE my food, just like a cookie I might have baked.

[Guest guest]

Sally,

Which state do you live in? I'm a semi-larcenous "health nut" living in Georgia.

Fran

-----Original Message-----From: Sally Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 10:04 PMTo: RawDairy Subject: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???I am a state employee.I swore to up hold the Laws.OKNO Problem,I have more real milk than I can use, I'd like to share it.So, I tried, but the state said I did not fall into their juristriction because I only had one dairy animal. They would not work with me, but I could not sell milk, I can not, in most cases, give it away either*.AND SO,People must STEAL the milk from me.- I can only control my own behavior, Health concious thieves, -imagine that!-sally*I am allowed to SHARE my food, just like a cookie I might have baked.PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING!Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information!http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/

[Guest guest]

Madness, isn't it?

And no, you could not give your milk away to a deserving soup kitchen or church. You can't give real food to starving people, only the crummy canned and institutional kind because it's legally "pasteurized". Gourmet restaurants need not apply. The stories make you wonder who's in charge of the Asylum.

Legal Terminology is not Logical, just in case you thought otherwise. Their definition of "Selling" is different from what you might think. Read your state law about Cottage Industries. Ours makes absolutely no sense, and since recently changed, has been ignored because it contradicts other regulations. I heard an attorney making fun of it on TV. It's Politics.

Public Servants are trained to give circular answers like that, I mean what else can they do when they know it's Bogus ... sort of like asking the IRS if a particular tax loophole is legal for you to take.... I promise they won't put what they said into writing, but hope it's in a printed flyer somewhere. If you are public service, all you can do is lay low, if you're one of the Good Guys. They make you lie to them for your own Sanity. Or just Laugh. Catch-22.

I'm not sure who the Criminal is anymore.

It's the time of Robin Hood again, my friends.

A man's good word is his only bond.

(and make sure your backside is covered.)...lol.

--Terry

Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ???

I am a state employee.I swore to up hold the Laws.OKNO Problem,I have more real milk than I can use, I'd like to share it.So, I tried, but the state said I did not fall into their juristriction because I only had one dairy animal. They would not work with me, but I could not sell milk, I can not, in most cases, give it away either*.AND SO,People must STEAL the milk from me.- I can only control my own behavior, Health concious thieves, -imagine that!-sally*I am allowed to SHARE my food, just like a cookie I might have baked.

[Guest guest]

I doubt if it would matter if you are illegally selling milk.

charlene

> >Reply-To: RawDairy >To: RawDairy >Subject: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? >Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:51:59 -0500 > >Starlene, >I think this waiver is EXCELLENT! That way, if they claim to have >gotten sick, you have a copy of the waiver that says they told you they >would not drink it. They will have violated their own promise. Also, >with regards to goat shares, there are several contracts posted in the >files section of this group...it takes away liability also as it's the >customer's own milk...I am not sure if the waiver and the share >contract could be used together though...maybe they could. > > > >On Jul 9, 2004, at 1:47 PM, RawDairy wrote: > > > And although I hate to admit it, I'm a little bit worried about being > > "reported" for selling raw milk, or being blamed if someone gets sick. > > I > > guess one has to have faith in one's fellow person. I know one person > > who > > has her "not personally known" customers sign a waiver that the milk > > will > > not be used for human consumption. > > > >

[Guest guest]

The rules also say that you can not label something as milk & sell it.

So why do we need to Label or call it Milk?

It's just " there " , with a date on it.

I put a date on my containers which indicates when I filled the

container.

All this jumping through loop holes is B S and I sure wish there were

not criminal penalties attached to providing " undestroyed " food.

I wish there were penalties for calling " unclean " what nature gave us

as the perfect nourishment.

-Sally

[Guest guest]

You know some of us on this list are commercial dairy operators. We have jumped through all the hoops to provide the best quality milk and milk products that we can all within the legal limits of the laws of the state that issues our licenses. We have put a lot of time and money in our operations not to mention the research and knowledge to make a living providing dairy products to all the multitude of people that want a variety of products. I, for one, resent the fact that backyard milk operations are illegally selling milk and milk products just to "turn a buck" under the sweetness of "providing products that otherwise would be difficult to obtain". I irks my soul knowing that there are those out there that would rather circumvent the law rathar than doing what they need to do to complying with the law. Yes, I've spent mucho money seeing to it that my dairy conforms to the law. Why? because I wouldn't dare try to sell any milk product, and risk my family's belongings just because it was something that I thought I had the right to do. If that was the case, then we shouldn't have any laws and the laws that we have should be ignored. I pay the tax on my goods, I pay the hefty licensing, I pay to have my dairy coform to the standards and so my question is Why shouldn't you too? What makes you the privileged one not to conform to the laws of your state. I'm not afraid of your sales versus mine, I'm afraid of the bad rap you might give to the legitimate small dairy man's name because you sold milk that was tainted, mastitic, or contained life threatening bacteria. How many of you backyard milkers can honestly say that you test your milk on a regular basis? How many of you can say that you test for mastitis and pathagens? How many of you can look your prospective customer in the eye and tell them that you are providing them with the BEST milk or milk/dairy product that you possibly can. Thought so.

charlene

> >Reply-To: RawDairy >To: RawDairy >Subject: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? >Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:29:53 -0000 > >The rules also say that you can not label something as milk & sell it. > >So why do we need to Label or call it Milk? >It's just "there", with a date on it. >I put a date on my containers which indicates when I filled the >container. > >All this jumping through loop holes is B S and I sure wish there were >not criminal penalties attached to providing "undestroyed" food. > >I wish there were penalties for calling "unclean" what nature gave us >as the perfect nourishment. > >-Sally > > > >

[Guest guest]

This is why we have two (mainly) political parties... those that think government should have a hand in everything and those that wish government would leave us the heck alone! Ok not quite that simple but you get the idea. I don't want the government breathing down my neck personally, they are out of control with all the rules and regulations... I would think you would be as miffed as anyone on this point. You said how much it costs you to operate under their guidelines... imagine if you could use that money as profit margin instead. Would you be any less sanitary and concerned about the health of your animals and consumers? It is those that would answer yes to that question that cause those of us who would say no to pay the price.

Yes I test my does milk monthly, I personally have my hands on those udders twice a day every day and know when production is down or there is a lump or bump. But that's me and I know not everyone is like that so I guess I feel it comes down to buyer beware, the way it's supposed to be!

Every single case of food poisoning in my life has come from commercial food products! As I recall the e-coli outbreaks and mad cow and all those wonderful things that we hear about are from commercial products! Please tell me how the government is really protecting us with all the regulations when people die from the regulated foods all the time.

Ok off my soapbox now.

Danni AckermanMighty Oak Farm Nubian Goatshttp://www.mightyoakfarm.comToday's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.

Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? >Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:29:53 -0000 > >The rules also say that you can not label something as milk & sell it. > >So why do we need to Label or call it Milk? >It's just "there", with a date on it. >I put a date on my containers which indicates when I filled the >container. > >All this jumping through loop holes is B S and I sure wish there were >not criminal penalties attached to providing "undestroyed" food. > >I wish there were penalties for calling "unclean" what nature gave us >as the perfect nourishment. > >-Sally > > > >

[Guest guest]

You know some of us on this list are commercial dairy operators. We have jumped through all the hoops to provide the best quality milk and milk products that we can all within the legal limits of the laws of the state that issues our licenses. We have put a lot of time and money in our operations not to mention the research and knowledge to make a living providing dairy products to all the multitude of people that want a variety of products. I, for one, resent the fact that backyard milk operations are illegally selling milk and milk products just to "turn a buck" under the sweetness of "providing products that otherwise would be difficult to obtain".

.....

I pay the tax on my goods, I pay the hefty licensing, I pay to have my dairy coform to the standards and so my question is Why shouldn't you too? What makes you the privileged one not to conform to the laws of your state.

Charlene,

I can see why you might be annoyed and angered by the tone of this thread. There are two main problems with your wish for compliance.

1. In most states, (mine for example) it is illegal to sell raw milk. Period. In some places, it is illegal to even give it away. So there are no hoops to jump through. The only way that someone who doesn't have their own cow or goat can get raw milk in those places is to find someone who will provide it illegally.

2. For some who have dairy animals, it is a lifestyle, not a livelihood. If I lived in Texas, for example, with my one little cow, it would be preposterous for me to pursue certification so that I could legally sell or give milk to my best friend, my neighbor, and my parents, even if I did have that kind of money to throw away.

I believe this thread was started by someone with three or four goats and a neighbor who wanted to buy milk, in a state where raw milk sales are illegal.

How many of you backyard milkers can honestly say that you test your milk on a regular basis? How many of you can say that you test for mastitis and pathagens? How many of you can look your prospective customer in the eye and tell them that you are providing them with the BEST milk or milk/dairy product that you possibly can. Thought so.

With one animal, one knowledgeable milker - especially a hand milker, I seriously question your assumption that someone needs a lab in order to know with full certainty that they have a good "product". That's the kind of attitude that brought us all this regulation and mandatory pasteurization in the first place. I am absolutely confident in the quality of my milk, and a lab report isn't going to tell me anything I don't already know.

Does anyone know if vegetable farmers get ticked about farmers' markets?

Lee Anne

____________________________________________________ IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click Here

[Guest guest]

Please remove me from this list. I am not intrested in listening to people deride one another.I am new to this list and I hope this is not all that goes on.I am a raw goats milk drinker,so I understand views on both sides of the arguement,but I feel this has gotten out of hand.I am sure there will be some poor things said about me,but we live in the US,so go ahead.

Thank you.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Lol Danni, we all have our soapboxes… our causes. As far as government control, at some point, whether it is Federal or State, there is going to government control over things. They regualte trade, banks, regulate shipping, and just about every industry you can think of.. As far a food goes, they have their regs to help insure that the foods consumed all meet at the same standard. Let me give you an example. Clean What is clean.. We all have our own standard of clean, yet I’m sure many people would disagree as to how to evaluate cleanliness. You may be very diligent in your milking procedures, but that doesn’t mean that everyone is going to be as diligent. And as soon as the “controls” are off, if it means saving money, some people are going to compromise their approach or compromise their standard of cleanliness. The controls were established to give the public a sense of security.

I’m not miffed…because I understand why they have some of the regs they have. And after operating within those regs, it became more and more apparent to me why they have them. (Especially the things that I thought were really stupid.)

People die from regulated foods.. hmm. I would not like to think about how many would perish from foods that were not regulated. But then again, we have very little to measure that, because most all foods are regulated. What would happen, for example, if half the population decided not to vaccinate for human diseases? What happens to my right, as a person that chooses to vaccinate against diseases when exposed to someone that chooses not to vaccinate for diseases? Where is my right not to be exposed to disease carriers? Does this also mean that people who smoke should be allowed to smoke wherever and when ever they like and the people’s who lives they effect from their smoke have no rights not to be tainted by their smoke?

Well I guess if you subscribe to the right to be able to buy products that you want, the buyer beware principle, then who will be liable in the event that the raw milk consumed from illegal sales promotes sickness? Does that mean then that the buyer who bewared has no holding in court? Don’t kid yourself, they would be the first person filing a law suit for their contracted sickness…because you after all sold them milk without a license to do so. .Sounds like someone wants their cake and eat it too, in this case milk..J Thanks Danni, I appreciated your response.

I also read that pasteurization was initiated soley as a means to extend the shelf life of milk. Had nothing to do with sanitation practices... Look at the ultra pasteurized products now .. yuck.. don't even have to refrigerate them...and don't have to buy them either.

charlene

> >Reply-To: RawDairy >To: <RawDairy > >Subject: RE: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? >Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:14:03 -0700 > >This is why we have two (mainly) political parties... those that think >government should have a hand in everything and those that wish >government would leave us the heck alone! Ok not quite that simple but >you get the idea. I don't want the government breathing down my neck >personally, they are out of control with all the rules and >regulations... I would think you would be as miffed as anyone on this >point. You said how much it costs you to operate under their >guidelines... imagine if you could use that money as profit margin >instead. Would you be any less sanitary and concerned about the health >of your animals and consumers? It is those that would answer yes to >that question that cause those of us who would say no to pay the price. >Yes I test my does milk monthly, I personally have my hands on those >udders twice a day every day and know when production is down or there >is a lump or bump. But that's me and I know not everyone is like that >so I guess I feel it comes down to buyer beware, the way it's supposed >to be! >Every single case of food poisoning in my life has come from commercial >food products! As I recall the e-coli outbreaks and mad cow and all >those wonderful things that we hear about are from commercial products! >Please tell me how the government is really protecting us with all the >regulations when people die from the regulated foods all the time. >Ok off my soapbox now. > > > > Danni Ackerman >Mighty Oak Farm Nubian Goats >http://www.mightyoakfarm.com <http://www.mightyoakfarm.com/> >Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground. > > > > Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? > >Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:29:53 -0000 > > > >The rules also say that you can not label something as milk & sell it. > > > >So why do we need to Label or call it Milk? > >It's just "there", with a date on it. > >I put a date on my containers which indicates when I filled the > >container. > > > >All this jumping through loop holes is B S and I sure wish there were > >not criminal penalties attached to providing "undestroyed" food. > > > >I wish there were penalties for calling "unclean" what nature gave us > >as the perfect nourishment. > > > >-Sally > > > > > > > > > > >PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING! > >Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information! > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/ > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

I am thankful that there is a wonderful Dairy in New England that

sells raw milk legally. They work with the state and they do an

extremely good job.

Unfortunately they are almost 2 hrs away and fresh milk has to be

obtained from them at their farm. This is how tough raw milk is to

obtain. I wish more Dairies would be willing to comply with all the

regulations to be able to sell raw milk.

When I set up my barn & milking areas I had a copy of the

regulations. I tried to comply with each item. I'm OK on most -

except the LOCATION of the floor drains, (I'm off a little and I only

have one) and I chose not to paint the inside of my barn white. My

doors might not swing the correct way. The intent of the law was

understood. The letter of the law was the tough part.

I had my cow tested and sent the results into the State. I asked to

be included in the SCC testing -and all other testing. I was denied

because in my state a " Dairy " has to have more than one milking

animal.

If I was a dairy I sure would comply with every letter of the law

because that would be my livelyhood.

There is no way that I consider having a cow, " being out to make a

buck " . I do not cut corners in sanitation or any other aspect of

this endeavor. If there was Raw Milk from a clean source available

close by I would most likely NOT have a milk cow.

Rest assured that we are working on producing wonderful, little, low-

production, docile, easy to milk, easy to care for cows. Cows that

do not produce such a significant quantity of milk that normally law

abiding folks are forced into considering alternatives so as not to

waste something so very precious.

That is why I said that having to jump through loopholes is ( a

terrible thing to be forced to do)

-Sally

[Guest guest]

Oh Ouch, Tonio! Surely someone of your expertise and knowledge wouldn’t stoop so low as to degrade themselves by name calling and criticism of someone else’s point of view. I surely thought this group was to explore these issues, my only point in bring up vaccines as such was to show the other side of the coin when people want something out of the confines of the law. Exactly whose rights are being thwarted? There are ways to change things; bullying and living above the law isn’t one of them. I’m not intimidated by you, your name calling or by your thoughtless words.

charlene

> >Reply-To: RawDairy >To: <RawDairy > >Subject: Re: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? >Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 22:04:41 -0400 > > >People die from regulated foods.. hmm. I would not like to think about how many would perish from foods that were not regulated. But then ?again, we have very little to measure that, because most all foods are regulated. What would happen, for example, if half the population decided not to vaccinate for human diseases? What happens to my right, as a person that chooses to vaccinate against diseases when exposed to someone that chooses not to vaccinate for diseases? Where is my right not >to be exposed to disease carriers? > >Charlene, >You've got to be a government spokesperson. I can't imagine anyone being so misinformed or ignorrant and adamantly so, about the issues of health in regard to food and vaccines and god knows what else. > >There is overwhelming evidence that you are completely and udderly WRONG in both assertions/opinions. And all the government's "evidence" comes from people paid by specific industries and pharmaceutical companies to promote their speciffic agendas. > >It's outrageous to spread such lies and propaganda that only serves to hurt the rest of us. If you are innocently misinformed you would do well to do a little research on both sides of the issue and then decide for yourself instead of taking the government's line at face value. > >Never has it been more important to, "question authority, and think for yourself." > >All worked up now, and nowhere to go. And to the rest of you, my apologies for falling off my high horse into the deep end. >Tonio FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!

[Guest guest]

> >Reply-To: RawDairy >To: <RawDairy > >Subject: RE: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? >Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:23:34 -0600 (Mountain Daylight Time) > >

Charlene,

I can see why you might be annoyed and angered by the tone of this thread. There are two main problems with your wish for compliance.

1. In most states, (mine for example) it is illegal to sell raw milk. Period. In some places, it is illegal to even give it away. So there are no hoops to jump through. The only way that someone who doesn't have their own cow or goat can get raw milk in those places is to find someone who will provide it illegally. Or get your own cow, or goat or yak Or work to change the law. I see two sides of the coin here. One side that doesn’t want any government intervention… and the other that wants an across the board approval to be able to buy raw milk in their state that now prohibits it... Which do you all want, no intervention or only intervention when it suits your need?

For some who have dairy animals, it is a lifestyle, not a livelihood. If I lived in Texas, for example, with my one little cow, it would be preposterous for me to pursue certification so that I could legally sell or give milk to my best friend, my neighbor, and my parents, even if I did have that kind of money to throw away.

Would it be preposterous? Is it more important for our lives to conform to the law or the laws to conform to our lifestyle? It looks as though when you can’t buy raw milk legally, one wants the laws to conform to their lifestyle. Seems that if it was that important in ones life they would do what they needed to do to even if it meant buying that cow.

I believe this thread was started by someone with three or four goats and a neighbor who wanted to buy milk, in a state where raw milk sales are illegal.

How many of you backyard milkers can honestly say that you test your milk on a regular basis? How many of you can say that you test for mastitis and pathagens? How many of you can look your prospective customer in the eye and tell them that you are providing them with the BEST milk or milk/dairy product that you possibly can. Thought so.

With one animal, one knowledgeable milker - especially a hand milker, , I seriously question your assumption that someone needs a lab in order to know with full certainty that they have a good "product". Oh yes they do. Hand milking increases the chances of hair, skin, manure, dirt to enter the milk. Bacteria clings to all of those things and filtering the milk doesn’t filter out the bacteria, only the hairs and other things. You can have a high SCC and not even know it . The only way you would know would be to have the milk evaluated. That's the kind of attitude that brought us all this regulation and mandatory pasteurization in the first place. Pasteurization came about to prolong the shelf life of milk. I am absolutely confident in the quality of my milk, and a lab report isn't going to tell me anything I don't already know. Then you really don’t know squat because without your milk being evaluated you have nothing concrete to go on.. just taste and believe me, you can have elevated SCC and still have milk that tastes fine. - charlene

Does anyone know if vegetable farmers get ticked about farmers' markets?

Lee Anne

____________________________________________________ MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access helps fight spam and pop-ups – now 2 months FREE!

[Guest guest]

> >Reply-To: RawDairy >To: <RawDairy > >Subject: RE: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? >Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:01:39 -0700 > >the fda site... here is a section for instance on milkroom >requirements... > >A milkhouse of sufficient size shall be provided, in which the cooling, >handling and storing of milk and the washing, sanitizing and storing of >milk containers and utensils shall be conducted, except as provided for >in Item 12r. of this Section. > >This is vague.. left open for that official to write you up! They aren't that attack happy... believe me. They don't tell you what to use, only how it has to work.

> >The milkhouse shall be provided with a smooth floor constructed of >concrete or equally impervious material; graded to drain; and maintained >in good repair. Liquid waste shall be disposed of in a sanitary manner. >Floor drains shall be accessible and shall be trapped if connected to a >sanitary sewer system. > >I don't have floor drains, don't need them in my small milk space! That is for cleaning purposes....> >The walls and ceilings shall be constructed of smooth material; be in >good repair; and be well painted, or finished in an equally suitable >manner. > >Tell me what this has to do with clean milk? It has to do with the dander and stuff that gets flung around the room by the animals. IT has to do with odors and fly dung that is left on the walls and ceilings....

> >The milkhouse shall have adequate natural and/or artificial light and be >well ventilated. > >not a problem although I could see government making it one! They aren't that tight a**ed> >The milkhouse shall be used for no other purpose than milkhouse >operations. There shall be no direct opening into any barn, stable or >parlor or into a room used for domestic purposes. Provided, that a >direct opening between the milkhouse and milking barn, stable or parlor >is permitted when a tight-fitting, self-closing, solid door(s) hinged to >be single or double acting is provided. Screened vents in the wall >between the milkhouse and a breezeway, which separates the milkhouse >from the milking parlor, are permitted, provided animals are not housed >within the milking facility. > >ok, not doable in a small operation such as ours. My milkroom is >located in a section of my carport (no cars park there) but I do use it >for storage. Again this has no effect on my milk! Just government >hogwash but I can see where it is suited for a large operation. > >Water under pressure shall be piped into the milkhouse. I'm not sure what this means except for having water in the milkhouse for obvious reasons. Also, in most instances, the milkhouse and the raw room or processing area are two different areas.

> >My water is behind the "milkhouse" > >The milkhouse shall be equipped with a two (2) compartment wash vat and >adequate hot water heating facilities. > >ummm... yeah right. I take my things into the house for washing. It isn't hat costly to have hot water in your milkng facitlty

> >Every dairy farm shall be provided with one (1) or more toilets, >conveniently located; properly constructed; operated; and maintained in >a sanitary manner. The waste shall be inaccessible to insects and shall >not pollute the soil surface or contaminate any water supply > >oh sure let me get right on that one! Why do you see this as unreasonable? because my dairy barn is not at my house, I can't go running to my house everytime nature calls.

> > >Basically they don't have anything specifically written for the small

>operation, it's all large scale cow dairy oriented.

You are better off looking at what your state regs are. Most are very similar to the fda regs., if not identical. Most are written for cows, with the exception addressing goats. It isn't that costly to set up a Grade A Micro Dairy. You don't have to have pipelines and large cooling vats. The rules look intimidating... but if you slow down and try to see how they can work, then you'll see that they aren't that big of a deal. In some states goats aren't even addressed.... I think initially when you see all that stuff, it can make you go crazy. However, honestly, it doesnt' have to be a major investment like some of you have alluded to. IT is a business investment.... like most businesses.. there is a certain amount of money that is considered startup... charlene

> > > Danni Ackerman >Mighty Oak Farm Nubian Goats >http://www.mightyoakfarm.com <http://www.mightyoakfarm.com/> >Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground. > > > > RE: Re: Providing Raw Milk -- FAQ or How To ??? > >Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:28:35 -0700 > > > >Would love you to share what you know with me because I went to the > >website and read the "hoops" including all the stainless steel > >equipment, certain ways the milkroom has to be set up etc... know > >something I don't? > > > > Danni Ackerman > >Mighty Oak Farm Nubian Goats > > > > _____ > >FREE pop-up blocking with <http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUS/2737??PS=47575> >the new MSN Toolbar - get it now! > >PLEASE BE KIND AND TRIM YOUR POSTS WHEN REPLYING! >Visit our Raw Dairy Files for a wealth of information! >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RawDairy/files/ > > > > > >