Re: asbestosis

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

There has been a big deal about Libby Montana. There was a vermiculite

mine there and the vermiculite was contaminated with asbestos.

The mine gave away waste quality vermiculite to the local residents.

The builders also used it as insulating materials and supposedly to mix

with asphalt when paving roads. It was also used as fill in some areas

where homes were built.

Tests of this waste material showed that it contained asbestos fibers.

Yes, vermiculite is similar to asbestos but they are distinct forms of

silicate minerals.

Just, like some talcs, the conditions under which these minerals were

formed were similar and some asbestos fibers also were formed.

That's the simple science stuff. Now comes the complex stuff.

Just because the was some asbestos fiber contamination,

what is the real risk. ?

what were type of types of asbestos?

what was the fiber length and width? AN ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL QUESTION

what were the ambient exposure levels?

since most of this material is sealed in walls or undisturbed attics,

what are the exposure levels in homes?

Not suprisingly, Libby says there was not a significant risk. On the

other hand, the EPA was panic mongering without a lot of real exposure

data related to type of asbestos and fiber size and width. This

situation made national news, yet very little true science was involved.

The natural level of asbestos fibers in the air is at least 0.0001 f/ml.

This translates into an average person inhaling something like

1,000,000,000 fibers over their lifetime. Yet, for centarians,

asbestos related disease is not a significant cause of death.

Even the state of California, under proposition 65 says exposure to 100

fibers per day over a lifetime is not a significant risk.

So what was really going on here.? My guess is a land grab or a

relationship between the main asbestos abatement contractor and the

state representative with some political campaign fund kick back.

In Illinois, the main asbestos abatement contractor, who got the major

of state contracts was the brother in law of the head of the state

agency that regulated asbestos. This governmental bureaucratic wore

$2,000 suits - so something was going on. These two guys had a scheme

going where, the head governmental guy would send in his inspector to

find a " problem " on another contractor's job, then his brother-in-law

would go in an " take care of the problem " at 4 times the cost.

Follow the money!

BOB

[Guest guest]

Jeff

Although vermiculite is not really asbestos, some forms of vermiculite are

found intemingled with asbestos and both end up in the consumer end product.

One US American (Canada is in North America too) company sold a lot of

vermiculite product that was significantly contaminated with asbestos (and

apparently, knowingly continued to sell it without notifying anyone of the

asbestos content).

I will leave comments on real health effects knowledge to others.

Jim H. White SSAL

asbestosis

> I heard some time ago that vermiculite was a form of asbestos as it was

> generally mined in the same vein as asbestos.

> I just saw a clinic specialising in vermiculite cancers.

> http://www.mirg.org/articles/art25.shtml

>

> In the Uk homes have until very recently had their cavity walls filled

with

> vermiculite and many bonding or bulking plasters had it as a main

> constituent.

> What's the take on risk and hazard generally ?

>

> Regards

> Jeff Charlton

> in London

>

>

>

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

> This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always

been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such

material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental,

political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice

issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such

copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law.

In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is

distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.

For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.

If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your

own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright

owner.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeff!

NIOSH's fact sheet on vermiculite -

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2003-141/

EPA's asbestos and vermiculite page - http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/

Vermiculite (mostly and insulation material and mineral) was mined

extensively in Libby, MT until 1990. It contains another silicate

mineral - tremolite an asbestos amphibole. Many workers, their family

members and regular townsfolk have or have died of asbestosis.

The conventional wisdom is leave the vermiculite in place, do not

disturb it, do not enter spaces (attics, etc.) with it, and you may want

to seal up any openings from wall cavities or ceiling attics into living

spaces. Testing is often problematic and inconclusive. Treat

vermiculite as asbestos-containing.

Do some searches Jeff and you'll find many news articles on the sad

story.

Klane, M.S.Ed., CIH, CHMM, CET

Klane's Education Information Training Hub

" Take a step in the right direction "

93 Norridgewock Road

Fairfield, Maine 04937-3116

207-453-KEITH (5348)

Fax:

keith@...

asbestosis

I heard some time ago that vermiculite was a form of asbestos as it was

generally mined in the same vein as asbestos.

I just saw a clinic specialising in vermiculite cancers.

http://www.mirg.org/articles/art25.shtml

In the Uk homes have until very recently had their cavity walls filled

with

vermiculite and many bonding or bulking plasters had it as a main

constituent.

What's the take on risk and hazard generally ?

Regards

Jeff Charlton

in London

FAIR USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always

been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such

material available in our efforts to advance understanding of

environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific,

and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use'

of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the

US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the

material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have

expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for

research and educational purposes. For more information go to:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use

copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go

beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

Jeff –

Vermiculite is not a form of asbestos. However, some vermiculite deposits (in particular two in the US) have secondary mineralization inclusions of asbestos.

In a nutshell, it would be impossible to assess the risk without knowing 1) the asbestos content of the vermiculite of which you speak, and 2) the exposure scenario.

Cheers,

Caoimhín P. Connell

<SMALL>(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG</SMALL>

[Guest guest]

Our firm has had considerable experience as a NVLP accredited laboratory

analysing vermiculite insulation samples for asbestos content and in

consulting on the control of this issue. The major concern as

previously noted is the WR Grace Libby Montana deposit that is

contaminated with significant amounts of the actinolite-tremolite series

of asbestos minerals, an amphibole mineral. It should be noted that

there were other sources of vermiculite in commercial use, with no

appreciable asbestos content, that were sold into the same markets for

the same uses. In fact, we have found the original bags to two

different products, the WR Grace Zonolite, and another source, in the

same attic space. Still, it is best to consider all attic insulation as

asbestos-suspect unless thorough testing shows otherwise.

Testing vermiculite insulation for asbestos content is harder than it

might first appear. In addition to the possible presence of vermiculite

from different sources in the same application, the asbestos fibres are

not uniformly mixed in the Libby vermiculite. One could take samples

from the top of an attic joist space and miss a significant asbestos

content settled at the bottom of the joist space. It is quite

interesting to take a sample of vermiculite insulation in a clear sealed

poly bag, shake it gently for a minute or two, and watch the separation

of the fine asbestos fraction at the bottom of the bag. The fibres

literally fall out of the vermiculite. The actinolite-tremolite fibres

in this fine fraction are very easy to identify by standard polarized

light microscopy. Our laboratory has a difficult issue in quantifying

the asbestos content of such a heterogeneous material and simply reports

an analysis as positive or negative for asbestos, with a caution about

negative results not necessarily representing all of the insulation

application. If we did have to estimate the general concentration of

asbestos in these samples, we would estimate a range of trace to 1% as

typical, with the occasional sample having as much as an estimated 5%

content. The regulatory side of the vermiculite story is complicated by

the fact that OSHA asbestos regulations do not apply to materials with

an asbestos content of less than 1%. The asbestos regulations in Canada

vary by province. Some set an action limit of 0.1%, based on WHMIS

requirements for reporting a confirmed human carcinogen, others are set

at 1%, and some have no set threshold to trigger regulatory

requirements.

Regardless of the regulatory issues, the actual disturbance of

vermiculite does in my opinion represent a true hazard of significant

over-exposure to asbestos. This opinion is based on a hygiene

assessment of exposures to airborne asbestos during simulated demolition

disturbance performed for the Canadian Department of National Defence at

CFB Shilo, Manitoba, in 1996. The results of this assessment were

presented at the American Industrial Hygiene Conference in Dallas in

1997, and have been shared with EPA and Health Canada. In 1996, DND

planned to demolish a number of WWII barracks buildings with loose-fill

vermiculite insulation and needed to know if the material had to be

removed before the demolition due to the low levels of asbestos present.

We did find one Zonolite bag left in one of the attic spaces at CFB

Shilo, but that may not have been the only product used. The hygiene

assessment involved an abatement company simulating the tearing out of a

section the drywall ceiling, allowing the vermiculite insulation above

to fall to the floor. The workers were protected with respirators and

coveralls, and the building was empty, but there was no effort to

suppress dust or ventilate the space. The assessment would represent

worker exposures during the demolition of similar spaces, but also the

possibility of exposure during renovations to attic spaces with

vermiculite insulation, if no precautions were taken. The asbestos

content of the vermiculite in this application, taken from several

different buildings with the same material, was as follows, as

determined by standard PLM methods in an NVLAP accredited laboratory:

14 samples, not detected; 22 samples, trace (less than 0.1% estimated);

5 samples, 0.1-1%; 1 sample, 5-10%). The Phase Contrast Microscope air

samples taken during the work showed exposures of 3.3 fibre/ml to 6.8

fibre/mL on the lightly loaded samples, with most of the samples too

overloaded to count. For reference, the current OSHA and ACGIH exposure

limits for actinolite-tremolite, and limits in most Canadian

jurisdictions, are set at 0.1 fibre/ml. The PCM samples were further

analysed by TEM methods, which confirmed the presence of

actinolite-tremolite fibres, all longer than 5 micrometres. The TEM

analysis also indicated that the true airborne concentrations during

this work may have been as high as 174 fibre/ml, although it should be

noted that the TEM analysis required an indirect preparation which may

have broken up some agglomerated fibre masses. The obvious conclusion

of this assessment was that this attic insulation does pose a hazard of

over-exposure to asbestos during such disturbance and required careful

removal before demolition. We would recommend pre-removal also prior to

any renovations that might disturb the attic space.

The vermiculite attic insulation issue has received recent public

attention in Canada with the media reporting of a cluster of three cases

of mesothelioma in a native family living in a reserve home in Poplar

River, Manitoba. The house has vermiculite attic insulation and

according to some reports, the children in the family used to play in

the attic space, and the house was also constructed so that some dust

from the attic space used to filter into the living space. Mesothelioma

is a rare cancer of the linings of the chest or abdominal cavities,

strongly associated with exposure to amphibole asbestos, and very rare

in the general population.

Bruce B.Sc., D.O.H.S., CIH, ROH

Senior Vice President

Pinchin Environmental Ltd.

5749 s Avenue

Mississauga ON L4Z 1R9

(T)

(F)

www.pinchin.com

asbestosis

I heard some time ago that vermiculite was a form of asbestos as it was

generally mined in the same vein as asbestos.

I just saw a clinic specialising in vermiculite cancers.

http://www.mirg.org/articles/art25.shtml

In the Uk homes have until very recently had their cavity walls filled

with

vermiculite and many bonding or bulking plasters had it as a main

constituent.

What's the take on risk and hazard generally ?

Regards

Jeff Charlton

in London

FAIR USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always

been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such

material available in our efforts to advance understanding of

environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific,

and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use'

of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the

US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the

material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have

expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for

research and educational purposes. For more information go to:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use

copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go

beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.