Re: Combustion By-Products of Freon

[Guest guest]

Combustion/decomposition of freon can produce a number of hazardous

products. This can range from Hydrochloric acid, Hydro flouric acid ,

and phosgene.

The white compound was a chemical precipitate formed in the air as a

result of these acid gases being present.

All of these compounds cause chemical burns in the lungs that lead to

infection a few days later. Diagnosed as chemically induced pneumonia.

Standard prophilatic medical response to an HCl, HF or phosgene exposure

is antibiotics. It appears this was not provided in this case.

This information is based on my experience with a fire in France and

Chicago. involving this type of chemical

BOB

[Guest guest]

1. It might not be freon. There are several refrigerants used these days

not like the old R series.

2. What was the brand of AC?

3. You might also have metallic salts or fumes - I'd try grabbing the powder

residue and sending it to a lab with a Scanning Electron Microscope (SEM)

and EDX (x-rsy diffraction)capabilities.

4. I has seen oils decompose into a white powdery substance as well (rapidly

though as opposed to a fire more like an explosion). Could've been the

compressor oil. FTIR analysis on the residuals also possible for organic

decomp products.

5. I use a colleague of mine for some of this work (I only have light

microscopes) up in Chicago called Microtrace, Owner Skip Palenik at

Ext. 10. (expect to get the voice mail, but he will call

back). Rates are $200/hr for use of all instruments, minimum charge is $600

but I wouldn't expect more than $1,000. Tell him the scenario and you can

mention my name to help service if you like. I would expect insurance to

cover it.

Tony

..................................................

" Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2

5450 N. Lafayette Road

Indianapolis, IN 46254

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Re: Combustion By-Products of Freon

Combustion/decomposition of freon can produce a number of hazardous

products. This can range from Hydrochloric acid, Hydro flouric acid ,

and phosgene.

The white compound was a chemical precipitate formed in the air as a

result of these acid gases being present.

All of these compounds cause chemical burns in the lungs that lead to

infection a few days later. Diagnosed as chemically induced pneumonia.

Standard prophilatic medical response to an HCl, HF or phosgene exposure

is antibiotics. It appears this was not provided in this case.

This information is based on my experience with a fire in France and

Chicago. involving this type of chemical

BOB

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[Guest guest]

Another follow up:

One other thing. If you have say a sulfur based organic to ID or an oil vs

diesel combustion product question. You could run Raman Spectroscopy to help

ID the compound or the difference (I hate to sound like an Ad but Microtrace

can do this as well and I think ya'll might benefit in the future frm this

knowledge; FYI - I get no commissions, but somtimes goodwill).

Tony

..................................................

" Tony " Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2

5450 N. Lafayette Road

Indianapolis, IN 46254

Office:

Fax:

This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may contain

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Combustion By-Products of Freon

Group/IAQ Experts/C-O-Chemists

We have a situation where the air-conditioner caught fire. Central

air ducts. The house filled with a white airborne substance. The

occupants insist it did not actually look or smell like smoke. They

say it appeared more like a powdery or oily haze. Fire dept

evacuated the home. No smoke damage was found by the occupants so

no cleaning was done. Severe health reactions followed in about a

week. Nervous system suspression.

Any ideas what this could have been? Precipitates? PAH?

Any suggestions for testing or screening for specific residuals?

Gerber

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[Guest guest]

I might be

stupid here, but how could you get HCl and HF from burning CFCs in an

oxygenated environment? It’s my

understanding that freons (CFCs) don’t burn at ALL (Halon, frequently used to

put out electrical fires, is chemically related to freons). Seems to me that freons were originally

used not just for their low boiling point and easy compressibility (i.e., good

refrigerant), but also because they’re chemically inert. Seems to me that you’d have to have

some sort of prolonged acetylene fire to produce acids like that, unless a

funky hydrogenated Freon was in use—and even then, you’d get oxygenated halide

compounds rather than diatomic acids.

Further, airborne salts of these acids would produce a white particulate

smoke, but ONLY in the presence of a large amount of gas phase base, such as

ammonia (also at one time used as a refrigerant). Could you please explain your assertions a little better, BOB?

A. Walsh MS, CIE

-----Original Message-----

Combustion/decomposition

of freon can produce a number of hazardous

products. This can range from Hydrochloric acid, Hydro flouric acid ,

and phosgene.

The white compound was a chemical precipitate formed in the air as a

result of these acid gases being present.

BOB

[Guest guest]

Freon 22 is chlorodifloromethane, it has a single hydrogen atom and is therefore hydrogenated, but it is not funky. Freons neither burn nor support combustion, but they do decompose at some temperature. If the temperature of the fire is great enough the freon will decompose into the products correctly identified by Bob. The combustion in the presence of oxygen was coincidental. Any combustion process that would have raised the freon temperature to the decomposition point would have created the two acids. The creation of phosgene would be determined by the presence of some oxygen in the system. In a system totally devoid of oxygen, phosgene could not form as it's molecular formula is COCl2.

Mark A McClanahan

Doraville GA

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:08:56 -0400 "Pat Walsh" writes:

I might be stupid here, but how could you get HCl and HF from burning CFCs in an oxygenated environment? It’s my understanding that freons (CFCs) don’t burn at ALL (Halon, frequently used to put out electrical fires, is chemically related to freons). Seems to me that freons were originally used not just for their low boiling point and easy compressibility (i.e., good refrigerant), but also because they’re chemically inert. Seems to me that you’d have to have some sort of prolonged acetylene fire to produce acids like that, unless a funky hydrogenated Freon was in use—and even then, you’d get oxygenated halide compounds rather than diatomic acids. Further, airborne salts of these acids would produce a white particulate smoke, but ONLY in the presence of a large amount of gas phase base, such as ammonia (also at one time used as a refrigerant). Could you please explain your assertions a little better, BOB?

A. Walsh MS, CIE

-----Original Message-----Combustion/decomposition of freon can produce a number of hazardous products. This can range from Hydrochloric acid, Hydro flouric acid , and phosgene.The white compound was a chemical precipitate formed in the air as a result of these acid gases being present. BOB FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

Pat,

At high enough temperatures , freons decompose.

BOB

[Guest guest]

They are generally non-flammable. However, consider the following acid gas emission rates from an actual fire test:

Gas release rates for each halocarbon (g/s)

Agent

HF

HCl

HBr

COF2

Halon 1211

0.066

0.21

0.91

0.17

HCFC 123

0.33

1.2

NA

0.47

PFH

0.26

NA

NA

0.91

There were also dioxins and furans and several VOCs released and quantified.

Source: Scheil, et al. ( AFB): Assessment of Occpational and Environmental Hazards of Firefighting Training. MRI, Kanas City, KS. April 1995. (Unpublished).

Also, remember that most specs allow for excessory components to varying degrees. For instance:

OPE-1 Agent:

Water content by weight 0.002

Acid Halides and Free Halogens 1.4 ppm by weight

2,2-Dichloro-1,1,1-triflourethane 99.0%

Nonvolatile residue 0.02 g/100 ml

Source: Lee, et al. (Tyndall AFB): Alternative Training Agents, Phase IV - Large Scale Tests. AFESC, Tyndall AFB, FL. Feb 1992. (Unpublished)

For more info on combustion products as a general overview, see:

, Jack E.: Toxic Pyrolysis Products of Solvents, Paints, and Polymer Films. in Occ Med State of the Art Reviews 8(3):533-560. 1993.

Tony

..................................................

"Tony" Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE

pH2

5450 N. Lafayette Road

Indianapolis, IN 46254

Office:

Fax:

This message is from pH2. This message and any attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information, and are intended only for the individual or entity identified above as the addressee. If you are not the addressee, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, you are not authorized to read, copy, or distribute this message and any attachments, and we ask that you please delete this message and attachments (including all copies) and notify the sender by return e-mail or by phone at . Delivery of this message and any attachments to any person other than the intended recipient(s) is not intended in any way to waive confidentiality or a privilege. All personal messages express views only of the sender, which are not to be attributed to pH2 and may not be copied or distributed without this statement.

-----Original Message-----From: Pat Walsh Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 1:09 PMTo: iequality Subject: RE: Combustion By-Products of Freon

I might be stupid here, but how could you get HCl and HF from burning CFCs in an oxygenated environment? It’s my understanding that freons (CFCs) don’t burn at ALL (Halon, frequently used to put out electrical fires, is chemically related to freons). Seems to me that freons were originally used not just for their low boiling point and easy compressibility (i.e., good refrigerant), but also because they’re chemically inert. Seems to me that you’d have to have some sort of prolonged acetylene fire to produce acids like that, unless a funky hydrogenated Freon was in use—and even then, you’d get oxygenated halide compounds rather than diatomic acids. Further, airborne salts of these acids would produce a white particulate smoke, but ONLY in the presence of a large amount of gas phase base, such as ammonia (also at one time used as a refrigerant). Could you please explain your assertions a little better, BOB?

A. Walsh MS, CIE

-----Original Message-----Combustion/decomposition of freon can produce a number of hazardous products. This can range from Hydrochloric acid, Hydro flouric acid , and phosgene.The white compound was a chemical precipitate formed in the air as a result of these acid gases being present. BOB FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

> I might be stupid here, but how could you get HCl and HF from

burning CFCs

> in an oxygenated environment?

Not stupid, you just haven't played with enough fire yet. In most

fire situations, there are physical areas in which insufficient

oxygen has contact with the fuel for complete combustion to occur.

In these areas, by-products that are not fully oxidized are formed.

Reactions such as cracking (breaking into smaller molecules) and even

reduction can occur in these areas. Among the results of these

chemical processes are things like smoke. These not fully oxidized

materials may be further oxidized elsewhere in the fire or may be

released into the environment in their not fully oxidized form.

Freons and other highly halogenated materials do not readily burn,

but may be partially or fully oxidized, may crack, or be reduced,

with sufficient heat and time. It is known that a couple of the

combustion by-products involving Freons are HCl and HF. I believe

that this is even listed on the MSDSs for these products. Nothing is

totally chemically inert. You can even ruin Teflon if you work hard

enough.

J. Murray Tate, CSP, CAIH

(cranky old chemist and hazmat specialist)