Re: Take Autism Quotient (AQ) test!

[Guest guest]

Hi.

I scored 48 on that test and I am HFA.

Some examples of questions that may be oriented to AS but that

would depend on the reason for the answer...

I would rather go to a library than a party even if I was not going to

read in the library. Libraries are quiet places which usually smell of

books and my dislike of parties is not just social... I find the

sensory overload from parties impossible to handle.

The " When I talk, it isn't always easy... " question was a little

difficult for me to answer. I would say that -when- I talk people do

find it difficult to get their turn. But, I do not talk all the time and I

do not go around talking to people about my perseverations,

generally. I did as a child when I was asked what I have been doing

or some other such question which I answered honestly (telling

what I had been doing) instead of making up some social ritual

reply. So, generally I do not talk very much unless I have a reason,

like if I am interested in the topic of conversation or if somebody

else addresses me in a way that makes it difficult not to speak

without walking away.

I would rather go to a museum than a theatre, but I have little

interest in the contents of museums. I have always been bored

when dragged to museums on school tours or with parents. But, if I

were to go there alone I would probably like the atmosphere more

than that of a theatre, where I would have to sit next to people and

understand what I was watching. Not everybody puts up with me

asking them such things as " who's that " when it is one of the main

characters that half-way through the movie I do not recognise.

Opera is unpleasant and stage-plays are not something I tend to

be very interested in.

The " When I talk on the phone " question.... when I talk on the

phone I do it because I want to talk to someone, which usually

means I want to inform them of something or to ask them a

question. I rarely use the telephone for chattering. To my

knowledge, four people have my phone number apart from when I

have had to write it on forms or give to the bank/isp/etc. and those

four people are welcome not to call me unless they have good

reason. If people I call (if and when I call) do not want to listen to

whatever I want to say when I want to say it, they do not have to

answer the phone and they can terminate the call. Anyway, I rarely

use the phone socially.

Going on and on about the same thing would mean that I started

speaking about it in the first place, which does not happen most of

the time.

I do collect information about things, but mostly I do not stay

interested in something long enough to collect a lot of data about

it. These days I spend more time doing nothing than doing

research. I would say that is a result of environmental factors (like

psych treatment for instance).

CZ

[Guest guest]

>Some examples of questions that may be oriented to AS but that

>would depend on the reason for the answer...

Actually they don't exactly oriented to AS either as I have AS and don't

find questions to be too far coined towards AS problems. It seems to me that

the big problem with the test is that questions were phrased in a way that

is being way too restrictive, which isn't good first because autism and AS

are spectrum disorders with few things being " typical " and secondly because

people on ASD would take questions literally and disagree with having

problems that they *do* have. For instance, they didn't ask whether you are

frequently going on and on about the same thing, but they asked whether

people are telling you that. In my case, and I am sure in many other cases,

people are too polite to tell things like that, which isn't really a

reflection of the degree of impairment of the test taker but rather a degree

of politeness of people around. On the other hand, of course, since you are

talking to more then one person, other people's character averages out, so

what they meant is whether or not you are going on and on about the same

thing soooo long that it would drive the average person so crazy that they

would confront you. In this interpretation, which is the only objective

interpretation, really, I had to put " definitely disagree " despite that I

*do* talk about the same thing a bit too long and can even see negative

reaction on their faces, though nobody would tell me. Similar problems were

with other questions too.

On any event, I decided to do the following to resolve the problem: take

test twice. One time try to be as autistic as possible and the other time

try to be as normal as possible, so I could say what range I fall into. When

I try to be as autistic as possible I get 29, when I try to be as normal as

possible, I get 15. So this isn't a definite score, but at least I don't

doubt my range. If I try to be less extremist I would find myself getting

from 22 to 25.

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[Guest guest]

> On any event, I decided to do the following to resolve the problem: take

> test twice. One time try to be as autistic as possible and the other time

> try to be as normal as possible, so I could say what range I fall into. When

> I try to be as autistic as possible I get 29, when I try to be as normal as

> possible, I get 15. So this isn't a definite score, but at least I don't

> doubt my range. If I try to be less extremist I would find myself getting

> from 22 to 25.

If I did that, I would score as a perfect NT. I have watched them

long enough that is it not hard to work out from that test which

answers would swing which way. If I could rig the MMPI to come

up with some really whacky stuff that in no way resembled me but

was consistent (and did once out of sheer boredom and objection

to being made to sit it), then I guess I could pick the NT responses

in that AQ test.

CZ

P.S. Could you please refrain from sending me unsolicited advice

in private email... if you must give advice then please do it on-list or

ask me first. That would save on bandwidth and redundancy.

[Guest guest]

>If I did that, I would score as a perfect NT.

I could do that too--get from 0 to 50-- I read enough literature to

recognise every single question. But the point is that I didn't allow myself

to make clear cut lies. When they asked whether I am a good deplomate which

I am not, then I would answer no both times. Likewise, when they asked

whether I note patterns all the time I would say no both times. HOWEVER, on

test #1 all in-between questions would be autistic while in test #2 they

would all be non-autistic. So for instance in test #1 everyone told me I

kept going on and on about the same thing-- just because it was test #1 so

in doubt==>autistic. On test #2 nobody told me that since it was test #2 so

in doubt==>normal.

>P.S. Could you please refrain from sending me unsolicited advice

>in private email... if you must give advice then please do it on-list or

>ask me first. That would save on bandwidth and redundancy.

I am sorry I did it. To " fix it " let be just cut and paste the copy of what

I sent (though he/she already answered it):

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I would say that is a result of environmental factors (like

psych treatment for instance).

I know its not my business to give strangers advice, but I can't resist... I

think you should consider

discontinuing the treatment if that is what it does for you. I was also once

offered medications, but I just

said " No " , when they persisted, I just kept saying " no " . And then I told

them that prescribing meds to me is

useless since I wouldn't take them anyway. And you know what, after half an

hour they just oppologised for

upsetting me and didn't prescribe anything.

The fact is that doctors have many different views on how much should be

prescribed or whether anything at

all should be prescribed, so never think of your doctor as an authority. On

the other hand, keep in mind

that meds are NOT designed to help one with social skills and staff-- there

aren't such meds. What meds are

for is basically to help you keep anxiety level down, not feel depressed,

etc. On the intelectual level,

they only hurt you; not help you. If you feel anxious or depressed you can

try and control it at will. If

you can't think, then your life is gone, so who cares whether or not you are

anxious or depressed.

I suggest you read a book " Toxic Psychiatry " which tells you all the damage

meds can do to you.

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[Guest guest]

> I am sorry I did it. To " fix it " let be just cut and paste the copy of what

> I sent (though he/she already answered it):

Refraining from it in future (unless you got to know me well enough

to give informed advice and private conversation has developed... I

think only two members of this list are in private contact with me

and those two are the only ones whose private correspondance I

have wished to seek) would suffice.

Medical advice from people who know nothing of the situation,

especially when it is stuff like that book which has its merits but

could do some damage if the wrong people read it, is not welcome

to me. It can be dangerous to advise people to stop their medical

treatment, whether you think it is for the best or not. That sort of

thing is the business of the patient and their treating practitioners.

Friendly advice can be useful sometimes, but not when it is almost

completely uninformed. I deal with this every day as an op in the

schizophrenia support channel. We get quite a few people coming

in there saying that love can heal all and preaching a number of

different things which often appeal to patients who are not all that

well at the time. It can be damaging to their health for them to get it

into their heads to stop their treatment or to lose trust in their

practitioners.

In my case, helpful advice is unlikely to do me any harm (other

than a little annoyance) since I know quite a lot about the topic, do

not have a compliance problem or lack of trust in my physician,

and I am not currently undergoing any " treatment " other than a low

dose of a SSRI. But, that is not the case with everybody. Breggin's

book is a good book in my opinion, but it is not the only viewpoint

and not always the best one for psychiatric patients to get worked

up about (and many would).

CZ

[Guest guest]

> I know its not my business to give strangers advice,

So social ineptness did not play any part in it. If you know

something is not your place to do, then don't do it. If your judgment

tells you it is not appropriate, refrain from it. Your above statement

shows that you were aware of this.

> but I can't resist...

I am interested to know why. If people can resist their depression

and anxiety at will, why can you not resist inappropriate advice-

giving?

> I

> think you should consider

> discontinuing the treatment if that is what it does for you.

I think you should not give advice unless you know what you are

talking about (and who).

> I was also once

> offered medications, but I just

> said " No " , when they persisted, I just kept saying " no " . And then I told

> them that prescribing meds to me is

> useless since I wouldn't take them anyway. And you know what, after half an

> hour they just oppologised for

> upsetting me and didn't prescribe anything.

And you may not have needed them, but some people do.

> The fact is that doctors have many different views on how much should be

> prescribed or whether anything at

> all should be prescribed, so never think of your doctor as an authority.

I would consider my doctor more of an authority than somebody I

know nothing about who is on a mailing list that I am on. If I

considered my doctor to be an idiot or incompetant (and I have

seen a lot of psychiatric practise and had a lot of contact with

patients and doctors and textbooks as well), I would change

doctors. I think I am a fair judge of a doctor's idiocy or

incompetancy when I am sitting there being assessed and treated

by him/her.

> On

> the other hand, keep in mind

> that meds are NOT designed to help one with social skills and staff-- there

> aren't such meds.

There is no need for you to tell me what psychiatric medications

are for. I know what many of them are for and I know how to

prescribe them (e.g. what symptoms they are indicated for treating

and I am fairly good at accurately assessing these in patients...

was a game I played with myself in hospital when I was bored... I

was usually correct when I did find out what the new admissions

were diagnosed with). I also am aware of many of the side effects

and which are serious and which are not, as well as which

medications are often used to counteract or relieve the side effects.

I have never and would never take a drug for the purpose of giving

me social skills.

> What meds are

> for is basically to help you keep anxiety level down, not feel depressed,

> etc.

That is not what all meds are for. Not even vaguely complete or

accurate. One thing about psychiatric practise and medications is

that -nothing- is " basically " anything. It is a very complex field or

more accurately collection of related fields.

> On the intelectual level,

> they only hurt you; not help you.

Excuse my bluntness, but that is also B.S.

> If you feel anxious or depressed you can

> try and control it at will.

Really.... I see... now I wonder why I have experienced myself as

well as seen in other people numerous instances of those very

things making a decent quality of life impossible without outside

intervention.

> If

> you can't think, then your life is gone, so who cares whether or not you are

> anxious or depressed.

Excuse me again. Just because I spend more time doing nothing

these days (the comment which started this off) and I attribute that

in part to psych treatments and learned behaviours (habits or lack

of previous habits), does not mean that I should never have been

given psychiatric medications. It does not mean that I am unable to

think and thus life is not worth living from the drug I am currently

on. You seem awfully mixed up in what you are talking about here.

Are you talking about neuroleptics or antidepressants or

anxiolytics? Antidepressants are not commonly known to reduce

people to so unable to think that life is not worth living.

Neuroleptics are not either, except in high doses and those doses

are generally given to people who would not have any decent

quality of life without them. There are exceptions, but I really think

you should do some more research before you make inaccurate

statements about such things.

> I suggest you read a book " Toxic Psychiatry " which tells you all the damage

> meds can do to you.

It is a very interesting book. From what I know, not everything said

in it has a place in everyday psychiatric practise and I certainly do

not think that it benefits every patient to be second-guessing and

undermining their treating doctors. Most psychiatric patients have

little knowledge of psychiatric medications and treatment

techniques. Material like Breggin's book could be a positive

influence or a very negative one. I ban people from the irc channel if

they come in and try to preach to other patients to stop their

medications against medical advice. And no, I do not love psych

meds... in fact I have had some very severe reactions to some of

them and I have been put on ridiculously high and damaging

doses... I have good reason to be violently against the distribution

of such medications.

But, I recognise that they have their place and a lot of people are a

lot better off with them than without. Patient-doctor trust is a very

important part of the treatment of any mental illness. Encouraging

people to undermine that trust is generally not a good idea; at least

not until you have sufficient information to know that you are not

going to be precipitating any harm to them or their treatment. I

wonder if you have ever been in close contact (particularly in

secure psych wards) with violent/paranoid/self-destructive/manic

and other types of patients who really do need their medications. If

you have no experience with psychiatric medicine in a greater

context than outpatient appointments where you refused

medication (and were allowed not to take it... if you had been

severely ill they would probably have forced you to take it to prevent

harm to yourself or others) and from reading a book like Toxic

Psychiatry, I think you have insufficient knowledge of the field to be

advising others in it. Of course, that is an " if " . I do not know you

nor what your experience is, but that is my opinion based on what I

have seen so far.

Enough said.

CZ

[Guest guest]

I agree with some of what you said and I am sorry for saying it and I

wouldn't push it. But let me just answer what you wrote anyway.

> > I know its not my business to give strangers advice,

>

>So social ineptness did not play any part in it. If you know

>something is not your place to do, then don't do it.

If something is not my business, it would only *sometimes* anger people, not

always. So I take chances. There is a Russian saying " if you are scared of

the wolves, then never go to the forest " . By the way, i could as well posted

it publically, just didn't want it to go under the title of " AQ test " and

interupt the subject.

>I am interested to know why. If people can resist their depression

>and anxiety at will, why can you not resist inappropriate advice-

>giving?

" I can't resist " is not literal. All I meant was I really wanted to say it.

>I think you should not give advice unless you know what you are

>talking about (and who).

Well, if I give someone an advice i am not forcing them to follow it, they

are free to disregard it due to the better counterargument. Now, you have

already answered that it might be dangerous in some cases and I agree, thats

just the way I originally thought.

>There is no need for you to tell me what psychiatric medications

>are for. I know what many of them are for and I know how to

>prescribe them

I didn't know you knew it. Once again it was a chance/ just in case sert of

a thing. I am sorry that I did it.

> > What meds are

> > for is basically to help you keep anxiety level down, not feel

>depressed,

> > etc.

>

>That is not what all meds are for.

Those were just a couple of examples. The point was that they didn't help

you FIGURE THINGS OUT (such as FOR EXAMPLE social interactions, or reading

comprehension) but rather helped you TOSS STAFF OUT (such as FOR EXAMPLE

depression and anxiety. I am aware there are other examples meds toss out,

such as paranoia, hallucinations, tics, obsessions AND MANY OTHER THINGS but

its all about tossing out things you could *IN PRINCIPLE* just ignore).

> > On the intelectual level,

> > they only hurt you; not help you.

>

>Excuse my bluntness, but that is also B.S.

Then how come you admit that " Toxic Psychiatry " is a good resourse? I

remember they had few pages or so for many common meds and explained how

each one of them was lowering intelligence.

Of course, as all those meds were just words for me they could easilly left

out some without my noticing. HOWEVER, I can't think of a single med that

would rise your intelligence, while neuroleptics are the ones to lower it--

that is what I meant IN TERMS OF INTELLIGENCE it can't help you, but can

(can is not the same as must) hurt you.

>

>Excuse me again. Just because I spend more time doing nothing

>these days (the comment which started this off) and I attribute that

>in part to psych treatments and learned behaviours (habits or lack

>of previous habits), does not mean that I should never have been

>given psychiatric medications.

I didn't know you were suicidal. In fact I had grounds for that one: I know

what autism is about and I know that its not about being suicidal. Of course

someone autistic might happen to also have a depression just as NT would...

but how many NTs are depressed? I would expect comparable proportion with

autism. Well, don't take word " comparable " too literally as autism might

contribute to depression due to social problems it creates. So I wouldn't be

surprised if the percentage of autistic depressed was twice higher then

percentage of NTs depressed, but I would NOT expect it to be 10 times higher

(or else it would be noted in DSM 4 and many other autism resources). So...

in light of that, I thought you were just slightly depressed and could

overcome it by will.

It does not mean that I am unable to

>think and thus life is not worth living from the drug I am currently

>on.

For me it would. I would certainly not want to spend my day not doing a

thing. That thing along would make me depressed. For me the point of life is

progress and not feeling depressed is in large part a means towards the end.

>I ban people from the irc channel if

>they come in and try to preach to other patients to stop their

>medications against medical advice.

I am new here so just wanna ask for info. Do you mean you are a moderator or

is it as-if type of statement? I honestly don't know, so please don't read

it as an occusation; just a question.

I

>wonder if you have ever been in close contact (particularly in

>secure psych wards) with violent/paranoid/self-destructive/manic

>and other types of patients who really do need their medications.

Never. But again, I know what schizophrenia and depression is about as I did

some readings on different mental illnesses. In fact, it was also my

obsession few years ago, but then I overcame it at will when recognised it

wasted too much of my time. I just didn't think an autistic would need it.

If

>you have no experience with psychiatric medicine in a greater

>context than outpatient appointments where you refused

>medication

Actually it was one-time visit to Brina Siegel by the reference of the

regular psychotherapist to test the degree of autism I had.

(and were allowed not to take it... if you had been

>severely ill they would probably have forced you to take it to prevent

>harm to yourself or others)

How would they be able to force me unless I am in the in-patient facility?

They can't come to my house, can they? So if I wouldn't take them, there is

nothing they can do, so why bother prescribing?

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[Guest guest]

Roman Sverdlov wrote:

>

> >Some examples of questions that may be oriented to AS but that

> >would depend on the reason for the answer...

>

> Actually they don't exactly oriented to AS either as I have AS and don't

> find questions to be too far coined towards AS problems.

That is an error in logic. You took the test and scored low, and you assume

that since you are AS, that the questions must not be oriented towards AS.

That is not so. Look at all of the scores that the people of this list have

received. Most of those are from people with AS. There are three of us that

are more HFA than AS, as far as I know. You are mistaken in your idea that the

test is not directed at AS. I cannot put it any simpler than that. Every

question in the AQ test applies to the AS expression of autism. You have to

look beyond yourself if you want to get a picture of what the range of AS

is.

> It seems to me that

> the big problem with the test is that questions were phrased in a way that

> is being way too restrictive, which isn't good first because autism and AS

> are spectrum disorders with few things being " typical " and secondly because

> people on ASD would take questions literally and disagree with having

> problems that they *do* have.

No one else seems to have had problems as you describe.

> For instance, they didn't ask whether you are

> frequently going on and on about the same thing, but they asked whether

> people are telling you that. In my case, and I am sure in many other cases,

> people are too polite to tell things like that, which isn't really a

> reflection of the degree of impairment of the test taker but rather a degree

> of politeness of people around. On the other hand, of course, since you are

> talking to more then one person, other people's character averages out, so

> what they meant is whether or not you are going on and on about the same

> thing soooo long that it would drive the average person so crazy that they

> would confront you.

I can see what you mean, but even that has implications that work towards the

test's purpose. If you are spreading your monologues so well that no one

person gets to the point that they complain of your single-topic nature, you

are showing a greater circle of friends or acquaintances that are willing to

listen than many spectrum people have. Or, maybe you just do not perseverate

on one topic enough to pass the acid test of whether others notice it.

> In this interpretation, which is the only objective

> interpretation, really, I had to put " definitely disagree " despite that I

> *do* talk about the same thing a bit too long and can even see negative

> reaction on their faces, though nobody would tell me. Similar problems were

> with other questions too.

I have never detected any sort of negative reaction on people's faces. That is

not something that is especially typical for ASD types. In your case, I think

it would be safe to say that the negative expressions are the same as people

telling you.

> On any event, I decided to do the following to resolve the problem: take

> test twice. One time try to be as autistic as possible and the other time

> try to be as normal as possible, so I could say what range I fall into. When

> I try to be as autistic as possible I get 29, when I try to be as normal as

> possible, I get 15. So this isn't a definite score, but at least I don't

> doubt my range.

What the heck is that? You fudge it up and down to try to be normal or

autistic? Just answer the questions as honestly as possible. This is not that

tough. I scored 46 and I did not try to be as autistic as possible-- I just

answered the questions.

> If I try to be less extremist I would find myself getting

> from 22 to 25.

The 80th percentile score for those on the spectrum is 32, and 22-25 is a lot

lower than that. Of course, people's ability to self-rate in tests varies, and

from your above description of " fudging " the numbers up and down, it appears

that you are one of these. Still, you have the lowest scores reported by

anyone on this list, even when you attempt to be as autistic as possible. I

think every score reported besides yours was in the forties.

Have you been diagnosed independently? Was this Wired article your

introduction to the autism spectrum? This test is not working for you... I

would suggest that you need someone that can rate you accurately and not get

bogged down in the wording of the questions. You may also want to try Jim

Gilliam's GADS scale and Tony Attwood's Australian scale.

http://pages.tstar.net/~jgilliam/GADS.PDF

http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/aspergerscaleAttwood.html

If you have someone that knows you well, I would suggest going over these with

that person to see if you can get a more accurate handle on where you stand.