Re: Comments on assistive technology

[Guest guest]

, ( My feedback on your last message about )

Is typing independently? Can she type whenever she wants

to, with a keyboard, completely unassisted, untouched or unprompted by

others?

If not, I would be skeptical of the validity of anything that she is

" saying. "

Tons of good research is available that shows that even with the most passive

contact or just the presence of someone in the same room, manipulation of

the communication by the facilitator can and usually does occur.

My own observation with FC bears this out. and her son

experimented with this years ago and they found out that even when her

son only had the slightest contact with her, he was able to manipulate

her typing. I have known people who can talk whose parents

won't encourage them but insist on them using FC.

The most infamous case of that is Susie Rubin, whose parents claim

That she has, via FC, graduated with honors from a college in California.

and I both know Susie. She can talk. Her parents won't let her.

I have to share the sad observation that many of the first wave of parents

who bought into FC were incredibly impatient, anxious parents. They

never should have been in the gene pool. Some of the adults who were

drafted into FC were former recipients of shock therapy from Ivar

Loovas.

There are a few cases where the people type completely

independently.

But they are rare. Even in these cases, the person is not able to use it for

Many practical purposes and amounts to little more than a traveling autism

Circus act, for the benefit of parents or professionals who feed off this.

Most of the time, FC is bullshit and a very dangerous communication option.

I have a great book on the FC cult, called " A Passion To Believe " ,

written by a good friend of mine, Diane Twachtmann. Let me know if

you want to borrow it.

Jerry

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/19/02 5:07:31 AM US Mountain Standard Time,

ascaris1@... writes:

> jwholphin48@... wrote:

> >

>

> Well, without being there in person, I cannot say, but it would appear that

> Ms.

> Baggs is writing independently. She talks of attending a university... so

> she

> is certainly not a low-functioning person in any way I can tell.

, you have no way of knowing the situation. I have had contact

with this person's mom and get the feeling that there is a good chance

of the kind of facilitation I speak of. Her mom impresses me as

being very overprotective and manipulative.

>

>

> >

>

> I do not think this is what we are talking about here.

>

I am afraid it is.

>

> > .

>

> The case here appears to be just the opposite... Ms. Baggs says that people

> want to take her keyboard and make her talk, and she does not want to.

>

Or do you mean, the mom is claiming that this is what

says? You don't know.

>

> > There are a few cases where the people type completely

> > independently.

> > But they are rare.

>

> Why would that be rare? If someone has difficulty expressing herself

> verbally,

> using a keyboard might be a good alternative. I have emailed with one

> autistic

> female that is much lower functioning than anyone here who claims that it

> is

> much easier for her to use email than it is to talk vocally.

A lot of people feel that way, but that is a different

situation.

I have seen enough of these FC cases in person to feel differently.

>

> > Even in these cases, the person is not able to use it for

> > Many practical purposes and amounts to little more than a traveling

> autism

> > Circus act, for the benefit of parents or professionals who feed off

> this.

> > Most of the time, FC is bullshit and a very dangerous communication

> option.

>

> I am aware of that... but I think we are talking about something totally

> different here.

I think you may feel differently after you read my book and consider

what my experience has shown. It is extremely rare that FC people

reach an independent typing stage. That, , is a fact, an undisputable,

scientific fact.

> It appears that she is a

> high-functioning individual that has difficulty with expressive verbal

> communication, and so prefers typing.

" Appears " is a sorry substitute for " is. " And Clinton aside, we

both know what " is " is.

I am imagining myself with greatly

>

> reduced vocal abilities. I might use some sort of electronic device, a

> laptop

> perhaps, that would allow me to communicate with the typewritten word. As

> such, it would be much the same as I am doing right now-- expressing myself

> by

> typing. I do not think that is what FC is supposed to be. I had already

> decided that FC is mostly B.S., from what I have heard of it.

It sure as hell is and i have to share with you that 's

mom is a member of ANI, which pushes FC as part of its philosophy.

Jerry>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/19/02 6:07:43 AM US Mountain Standard Time,

antryg@... writes:

> Or do you mean, the mom is claiming that this is what

> > says? You don't know.

>

> Why would a parent do that? I mean, I know that many do, but I fail

> to understand why.

They do it to control the communication. Often, FC produces

flowery tributes to parents or stuff that is incredibly out of proportion

to any capacity previously seen in the purported author.

From what I know of university and other

>

> tertiary education, it would be difficult for a parent to do all the work

> for his/her child, particularly as a lot of the assessed work is

> completed in classes or exams on campus. Of course, studying

> externally would be different, but I would assume that there would

> be supervised examinations. When I was homeschool for part of

> secondary school, I had to sit supervised tests.

I have no doubt that zealous FC parents know every trick on

how to con schools into accepting the " results " and " performances "

on tests.

>

> I cannot imagine actively faking somebody's communications or

> manipulating them. I also cannot think of any motivations that

> could cause somebody to do it, other than money or recognition,

> which can cause some people to do virtually anything.

>

Well, money and recognition are very attractive if a parent's

ego bleeds from a lifetime of frustration.

>

> >

>

> Does FC only include a human facilitator.

Yes.

The other options that you describe are simply assistive technology

and I know people who use them independently.

Those things looked more convenient

>

> than laptops, as they were clipped onto the walking frames or

> wheelchairs of these people.

>

Jerry

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/19/02 6:14:14 AM US Mountain Standard Time,

ascaris1@... writes:

> jwholphin48@... wrote:

>

> > > Well, without being there in person, I cannot say, but it would appear

> that

> > > Ms.

> > > Baggs is writing independently. She talks of attending a university...

> so

> > > she

> > > is certainly not a low-functioning person in any way I can tell.

> >

> > , you have no way of knowing the situation.

>

> Yes, I am aware of that, and I did indicate such in the first line quoted

> above.

>

>

> > I have had contact

> > with this person's mom and get the feeling that there is a good chance

> > of the kind of facilitation I speak of. Her mom impresses me as

> > being very overprotective and manipulative.

>

> Yes, I certainly know the type. You did not tell me you knew anything

> personally about this before, Jerry. Even so, " there is a good chance " is

> not

> the same as something being a given.

>

No, but having witnessed too much of this, I am more

skeptical than you are.

>

>

> If so, that is not evident in any way I can see from the article itself. I

> can

> only take what is written for consideration. You have the benefit of

> knowledge

> that was not in the article itself.

>

Correct. I have contact with the mom and with her organization,

neither of which inspire confidence in this purported communication.

> While I was using this one example, which is indeed what got me started on

> this

> line of thought, what I was really asking about was whether it was wrong to

> " push " for vocal communication, just as I think it is to push for feigned

> normality.

>

> It is also wrong to pretend that it is enough to settle for

> communication

> which has no practical use, which FC is. It is right to push for

> independence

> from the facilitator, whether the result is typing or speaking. One way or

> the other, the person must be liberated from potential manipulation.

I personally think that it is imperative to get the vocal

>

> processing centers in the autistic child's brain working as early as is

> possible, so that the developing neurons can be placed in useful patterns.

> The

> longer the delay before receptive speech, the worse the long-term prognosis

> for

> that person to be able to express him/herself. This is not necessarily the

> same as the delay in speaking. As you know, many autistic children

> understand

> speech but do not speak much, if at all.

I think a lot more of them would speak if the hyper parents would

chill out and more attention was placed on exercise, hot tubs and other

stuff to help the child relax. These FC type kids are usually incredibly

high strung and grow up in emotional hothouses.

>

>

> > Or do you mean, the mom is claiming that this is what

> > says? You don't know.

>

> No, of course I do not know. I don't know that any of the things I have

> ever

> read are real unless I have personally verified them. No one knows those

> things about me either when they visit my web site. I do not know that

> Temple

> Grandin wrote her own books, since I have never met her. I trust that the

> byline on her book cover, and the " hearsay " from people that have talked to

> her, is accurate. Still, I have no firsthand knowledge. At some point,

> you

> have to accept that a byline is reasonably accurate in whom it lists as the

> author.

>

Well, I for example, know you and I also know Temple so I have

no problem trusting the authorship of either of you but when I see

purported testimony from a person, whose mom is a fan of FC and

acts as her mom does, I am skeptical.

> Nothing in Ms. Baggs' articles indicates that there was anything besides

> what I

> am doing here, which is typing independently. If there is, then there is

> certainly no indication of such that I can see. If you have personal know

> ledge

> of that, it is nothing I could have known from reading the

>

> Well, that is what I am trying to establish. From the article itself, it

> certainly does not seem like an FC case. I have certainly not done the

> research and/or seen what you have seen, but in her article, it sounds very

> much like the same thing that I am talking about. She makes no indication

> of

> having another person assisting. I would consider an article with a byline

> of

> an autistic person, but FC'd by someone else, to be a total sham, and only

> marginally usable as a bird cage liner, were it in hard copy (lest the bird

> be

> denigrated by having to poop on said hard copy).

>

>

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I think you may feel differently after you read my book and

> consider

> > what my experience has shown. It is extremely rare that FC people

> > reach an independent typing stage. That, , is a fact, an

> undisputable,

> > scientific fact.

>

> You have not presented any evidence that FC is indeed taking place, any

> more

> than I have that it is not.

I have presented observations of circumstances about this lady

that you were not aware of. I have seen enough of the FC zealousness

that I just don't trust it at all.

Enough of this.

Jerry

>

> Here is a nomenclature question: Is it FC if a person has difficulty

> speaking

> and chooses to use a laptop computer with a voice synthesis system to

> " speak? "

NO. That person is not being facilitated. FC = Facilitated

communication.

> I have been mentally defining the term as if it is not. To me, that would

> be

> real; FC is a concept that is too tainted in my mind to be real.

>

>

> > > It appears that she is a

> > > high-functioning individual that has difficulty with expressive verbal

> > > communication, and so prefers typing.

> >

> > " Appears " is a sorry substitute for " is. " And Clinton aside, we

> > both know what " is " is.

>

> I know, but if I doubt every aspect of every thing I ever read, I will be

> spending all day analyzing a single article.

I don't doubt every aspect either and I don't have time to read as

much as you.

>

>

> > I am imagining myself with greatly

> > >

> >

> >

> > It sure as hell is and i have to share with you that 's

> > mom is a member of ANI, which pushes FC as part of its philosophy.

>

> That's still not the same as knowing that it has occurred. Now, in my

> mind, it

> is a question mark... but this is based on your prior-knowledge objection,

> not

> on the article itself. Had it been some other name attached, what would

> you

> think? Is it that impossible that a person, one who goes to college, let's

> say, could use a device like a computer to make it easier to communicate?

> Serious question; not rhetorical.

But at this point, , you know what i know so why do you keep

harping on it? I have to end my half of this dialogue. I don't have this

much time for such stuff. And neither will you I hope, someday.

Jerry

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/19/02 6:35:48 AM US Mountain Standard Time,

ascaris1@... writes:

> And that is really what I was talking about here. The title of the thread

> contains " Assistive Technlogy, " and in the article, that is what is being

> talked about. Whether or not the article is a fraudulent piece written by

> Ms.

> Baggs' parents is not really what I was getting at, although it is

> interesting.

The FC people try to crawl under the umbrella of assistive

technology to have credibility.

What I was getting at is whether speech should be " pushed " as

>

> being the ideal, and whether doing so is analogous to forced normality

> training

> that too many autistic kids have to endure.

The goal must be independent communication. FC is not and it

is that simple. Speech is not the only form of independent communication.

Jerry

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/19/02 6:55:00 AM US Mountain Standard Time,

jypsy@... writes:

> I know it works, for at least one person in the world. I know it can lead

> to independence. I've been there. I saw and felt it happen.

>

> -jypsy

>

>

Glad to hear it and that is why I don't totally dismiss it. There will

be another such case at the ASLA conference in March.

Jerry

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/19/02 7:03:39 AM US Mountain Standard Time,

ascaris1@... writes:

> > But at this point, , you know what i know so why do you keep

> > harping on it?

>

> Because your suspicions are only that, but you portray them as proven fact.

>

>

No, I don't. I simply share why I am skeptical.

>

> Come on, this is great! The list has had nine messages all month until

> now. I

> hope I am never so short on time that I do not have time for things like

> this.

>

>

A matter of opinion. Compared to getting out of here and driving

to the spa, exercising and enjoying the day ( and it's the same day

for you since we live in the same city) this ain't so great

But e-mail beats total isolation for sure.

Jerry

>

>

[Guest guest]

jwholphin48@... wrote:

>

> , ( My feedback on your last message about )

>

> Is typing independently? Can she type whenever she wants

> to, with a keyboard, completely unassisted, untouched or unprompted by

> others?

> If not, I would be skeptical of the validity of anything that she is

> " saying. "

> Tons of good research is available that shows that even with the most passive

> contact or just the presence of someone in the same room, manipulation of

> the communication by the facilitator can and usually does occur.

Well, without being there in person, I cannot say, but it would appear that Ms.

Baggs is writing independently. She talks of attending a university... so she

is certainly not a low-functioning person in any way I can tell.

> My own observation with FC bears this out. and her son

> experimented with this years ago and they found out that even when her

> son only had the slightest contact with her, he was able to manipulate

> her typing. I have known people who can talk whose parents

> won't encourage them but insist on them using FC.

I do not think this is what we are talking about here.

> The most infamous case of that is Susie Rubin, whose parents claim

> That she has, via FC, graduated with honors from a college in California.

> and I both know Susie. She can talk. Her parents won't let her.

> I have to share the sad observation that many of the first wave of parents

> who bought into FC were incredibly impatient, anxious parents. They

> never should have been in the gene pool. Some of the adults who were

> drafted into FC were former recipients of shock therapy from Ivar

> Loovas.

The case here appears to be just the opposite... Ms. Baggs says that people

want to take her keyboard and make her talk, and she does not want to.

> There are a few cases where the people type completely

> independently.

> But they are rare.

Why would that be rare? If someone has difficulty expressing herself verbally,

using a keyboard might be a good alternative. I have emailed with one autistic

female that is much lower functioning than anyone here who claims that it is

much easier for her to use email than it is to talk vocally.

> Even in these cases, the person is not able to use it for

> Many practical purposes and amounts to little more than a traveling autism

> Circus act, for the benefit of parents or professionals who feed off this.

> Most of the time, FC is bullshit and a very dangerous communication option.

I am aware of that... but I think we are talking about something totally

different here. It would be more like a mute person using a typewriter and

showing the paper to whomever she is talking to (I could not think of a way to

make that one not end with a preposition). It appears that she is a

high-functioning individual that has difficulty with expressive verbal

communication, and so prefers typing. I am imagining myself with greatly

reduced vocal abilities. I might use some sort of electronic device, a laptop

perhaps, that would allow me to communicate with the typewritten word. As

such, it would be much the same as I am doing right now-- exprssing myself by

typing. I do not think that is what FC is supposed to be. I had already

decided that FC is mostly B.S., from what I have heard of it.

[Guest guest]

> Well, without being there in person, I cannot say, but it would appear

> that Ms. Baggs is writing independently. She talks of attending a

> university... so she is certainly not a low-functioning person in any

> way I can tell.

I am attending a university at the moment. I will know in three

weeks or so whether I will be continuing on to do an undergraduate

degree. I am capable of speaking in conversation with people, but I

find it confusing and it usually overloads me very quickly or I lose

track of what they or I am saying. My Dad commented yesterday

while driving me to university that when I type (he said not just in

email to him but in other writing of mine that I have shown him) my

thinking is very lucid, clear and logical when compared to how it

comes across in speech. Tonight is a bad example, as I have been

out to the cinema and two shopping centres and a foodhall today

and am quite overloaded now.

Speech is difficult (not the production of sound... but rather

focussing on the discourse and trying to make sense without being

" tangential " ) and I much prefer typed communication. I would not

prefer to sit and type while others spoke to me, however. I prefer

communication over the internet. It has made the concepts of

" friendship " and group interaction accessible to me in a way that I

have never experienced previously. I rarely get overloaded by

conversation on irc or in email, whereas I almost always do by

verbal conversations in person or on the phone.

> > There are a few cases where the people type completely

> > independently.

> > But they are rare.

>

> Why would that be rare? If someone has difficulty expressing herself

> verbally, using a keyboard might be a good alternative. I have

> emailed with one autistic female that is much lower functioning than

> anyone here who claims that it is much easier for her to use email

> than it is to talk vocally.

I find that too. That is why " I don't do three-dimensional friends " , as

I often put it when asked why I do not " get a life " .

University this last two weeks has been sheer hell not because of

the difficulty (or lack thereof) of the work, but because of the

number of people and their social behaviours and inability to think

critically in class debates. Yesterday, while I was waiting for Dad

to come and pick me up, one of the young male students made

some idle conversation about essays (joining in a brief conversation

I was having with a female student as she walked past... about how

she is doing since she has a disability and had been in my Social

Science class but got transferred to Stats).

The male student (whose name I do not know) said to me that I will

" breeze through " and remarked on how I exude critical thinking (I

think he said " exude " ... if not it was a word to the same effect).

When I asked what made him think that, he said " You question

everything " . There appears (judging by group work) to be a

common assumption among many of the people in my classes

that because I am usually quiet and I avoid eye contact I must

therefore not have valid or intelligent opinions in group debates. If

they had any prolonged contact with me via email or irc they would

realise that I am not stupid or crazy just because I do not

communicate effectively when speaking.

> > Even in these cases, the person is not able to use it for

> > Many practical purposes and amounts to little more than a traveling

> > autism Circus act, for the benefit of parents or professionals who

> > feed off this. Most of the time, FC is bullshit and a very dangerous

> > communication option.

>

> I am aware of that... but I think we are talking about something

> totally different here. It would be more like a mute person using a

> typewriter and showing the paper to

[the intended recipient of her communication]

whomever she is talking to (I

> could not think of a way to make that one not end with a preposition).

> It appears that she is a high-functioning individual that has

> difficulty with expressive verbal communication, and so prefers

> typing. I am imagining myself with greatly reduced vocal abilities.

> I might use some sort of electronic device, a laptop perhaps, that

> would allow me to communicate with the typewritten word. As such, it

> would be much the same as I am doing right now-- exprssing myself by

> typing. I do not think that is what FC is supposed to be. I had

> already decided that FC is mostly B.S., from what I have heard of

it.

The first autism list I joined was a high volume list populated by

non-autistic people bickering over FC versus ABA. Luckily, I also

joined a couple of other lists and realised that autism-related

mailing lists are not always filled with useless garbage. I think as a

child I would have found both FC and ABA (and many other

interventions of which I have heard... teehee no preposition on the

end of that.. damn you - I have been aware of every time I

ended a sentence with a preposition for quite a few months thanks

to you) to be unacceptable. One of the best things about living

alone in my own house is that nobody can (either forcefully or

slyly) coerce me into engaging in conversation or putting up with

sensory stimuli caused by cohabitants (such as TVs and radios

among many other things).

Sorry if this email was not very logical or lucid. I am going to get

something to drink and then go to bed, as my mind and body are

tired.

CZ

[Guest guest]

> > The case here appears to be just the opposite... Ms. Baggs says that

> > people want to take her keyboard and make her talk, and she does not

> > want to.

> >

>

> Or do you mean, the mom is claiming that this is what

> says? You don't know.

Why would a parent do that? I mean, I know that many do, but I fail

to understand why. From what I know of university and other

tertiary education, it would be difficult for a parent to do all the work

for his/her child, particularly as a lot of the assessed work is

completed in classes or exams on campus. Of course, studying

externally would be different, but I would assume that there would

be supervised examinations. When I was homeschool for part of

secondary school, I had to sit supervised tests.

I cannot imagine actively faking somebody's communications or

manipulating them. I also cannot think of any motivations that

could cause somebody to do it, other than money or recognition,

which can cause some people to do virtually anything.

> I think you may feel differently after you read my book and

> consider

> what my experience has shown. It is extremely rare that FC people

> reach an independent typing stage. That, , is a fact, an

> undisputable, scientific fact.

Does FC only include a human facilitator or does it also mean

using mechanical aids for communication, such as the things I

have seen patients with motor-neurone diseases use to type words

which the machine speaks? Those things looked more convenient

than laptops, as they were clipped onto the walking frames or

wheelchairs of these people.

Having speech or communication passed through another person

seems a little dodgy to me. I have had many experiences where

somebody will completely incorrectly paraphrase what I have said

back to me straight after I have said it, and to think of somebody

else interpreting communication of mine and relaying it is quite

scary. The game Chinese Whispers is a good illustration of

messages being confused when passed from person to person,

although most conversations of mine are sufficient illustration for

me.

> > It appears that she is a

> > high-functioning individual that has difficulty with expressive

> > verbal communication, and so prefers typing.

>

> " Appears " is a sorry substitute for " is. " And Clinton aside,

> we

> both know what " is " is.

True. But to " get the feeling " that something " is " is different to

knowing it. I am not taking sides in this debate, as I have

absolutely no background knowledge to go by, but I did think of

asking what gave you " the feeling " , as I tend to form opinions from

thoughts/observations and I do not " get feelings " about things. It

could just be the way you worded it, of course. I have used the

expression plenty of times myself, usually to convey to NT people

that I " formed the opinion " .

So, I would take issue with " get the feeling " and with " It appears " .

Both are not precise or factual statements.

> I am imagining myself with greatly

> >

> > reduced vocal abilities. I might use some sort of electronic

> > device, a laptop perhaps, that would allow me to communicate with

> > the typewritten word. As such, it would be much the same as I am

> > doing right now-- expressing myself by typing. I do not think that

> > is what FC is supposed to be. I had already decided that FC is

> > mostly B.S., from what I have heard of it.

>

> It sure as hell is and i have to share with you that

> 's

> mom is a member of ANI, which pushes FC as part of its

philosophy.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is ANI?

CZ

[Guest guest]

jwholphin48@... wrote:

> > Well, without being there in person, I cannot say, but it would appear that

> > Ms.

> > Baggs is writing independently. She talks of attending a university... so

> > she

> > is certainly not a low-functioning person in any way I can tell.

>

> , you have no way of knowing the situation.

Yes, I am aware of that, and I did indicate such in the first line quoted

above.

> I have had contact

> with this person's mom and get the feeling that there is a good chance

> of the kind of facilitation I speak of. Her mom impresses me as

> being very overprotective and manipulative.

Yes, I certainly know the type. You did not tell me you knew anything

personally about this before, Jerry. Even so, " there is a good chance " is not

the same as something being a given.

> > I do not think this is what we are talking about here.

> >

> I am afraid it is.

If so, that is not evident in any way I can see from the article itself. I can

only take what is written for consideration. You have the benefit of knowledge

that was not in the article itself.

While I was using this one example, which is indeed what got me started on this

line of thought, what I was really asking about was whether it was wrong to

" push " for vocal communication, just as I think it is to push for feigned

normality. I personally think that it is imperative to get the vocal

processing centers in the autistic child's brain working as early as is

possible, so that the developing neurons can be placed in useful patterns. The

longer the delay before receptive speech, the worse the long-term prognosis for

that person to be able to express him/herself. This is not necessarily the

same as the delay in speaking. As you know, many autistic children understand

speech but do not speak much, if at all.

> Or do you mean, the mom is claiming that this is what

> says? You don't know.

No, of course I do not know. I don't know that any of the things I have ever

read are real unless I have personally verified them. No one knows those

things about me either when they visit my web site. I do not know that Temple

Grandin wrote her own books, since I have never met her. I trust that the

byline on her book cover, and the " hearsay " from people that have talked to

her, is accurate. Still, I have no firsthand knowledge. At some point, you

have to accept that a byline is reasonably accurate in whom it lists as the

author.

Nothing in Ms. Baggs' articles indicates that there was anything besides what I

am doing here, which is typing independently. If there is, then there is

certainly no indication of such that I can see. If you have personal knowledge

of that, it is nothing I could have known from reading the article in

question. And if the article in question was actually written by 's

mother, then it is a fraud, and the byline is erroneous. I can only judge

which is the case based on what I know. And I do know several people that find

it easier to communicate via keyboard than vocally-- I am one of them. I have

no difficulty articulating, but I do have a tendency to go in circles and

restate the same thing several different ways, or to lose sight of the " gist "

of what I was saying and follow every tangent possible. I am sure that this

tangential speech is what got me the schizoaffective misdiagnosis... it can

appear like the disorganized type of schizophrenia.

Of course, I would not (and do not) use a keyboard to communicate while others

were being vocal, such as at your meetings. That would be silly... I can and

do talk, sometimes verbosely. However, my verbal ability does not mean that I

am automatically going to look down upon attempts at less verbal people to

communicate. Are you saying that there is essentially no such person

(autistics, of course) that can communicate well via keyboard but not vocally?

This does not seem so farfetched. Given that I, as a pretty verbal person,

finds it easier to produce coherent thoughts with a kayboard than with my

mouth, is it so hard to imagine that someone closer to the LFA cut-off might

prefer typing even more? Or is it that whatever impairs verbal ability also

impairs typing ability?

> A lot of people feel that way, but that is a different

> situation.

> I have seen enough of these FC cases in person to feel differently.

Well, that is what I am trying to establish. From the article itself, it

certainly does not seem like an FC case. I have certainly not done the

research and/or seen what you have seen, but in her article, it sounds very

much like the same thing that I am talking about. She makes no indication of

having another person assisting. I would consider an article with a byline of

an autistic person, but FC'd by someone else, to be a total sham, and only

marginally usable as a bird cage liner, were it in hard copy (lest the bird be

denigrated by having to poop on said hard copy).

> >

> > > Even in these cases, the person is not able to use it for

> > > Many practical purposes and amounts to little more than a traveling

> > autism

> > > Circus act, for the benefit of parents or professionals who feed off

> > this.

> > > Most of the time, FC is bullshit and a very dangerous communication

> > option.

> >

> > I am aware of that... but I think we are talking about something totally

> > different here.

>

> I think you may feel differently after you read my book and consider

> what my experience has shown. It is extremely rare that FC people

> reach an independent typing stage. That, , is a fact, an undisputable,

> scientific fact.

You have not presented any evidence that FC is indeed taking place, any more

than I have that it is not.

Here is a nomenclature question: Is it FC if a person has difficulty speaking

and chooses to use a laptop computer with a voice synthesis system to " speak? "

I have been mentally defining the term as if it is not. To me, that would be

real; FC is a concept that is too tainted in my mind to be real.

> > It appears that she is a

> > high-functioning individual that has difficulty with expressive verbal

> > communication, and so prefers typing.

>

> " Appears " is a sorry substitute for " is. " And Clinton aside, we

> both know what " is " is.

I know, but if I doubt every aspect of every thing I ever read, I will be

spending all day analyzing a single article.

> I am imagining myself with greatly

> >

> > reduced vocal abilities. I might use some sort of electronic device, a

> > laptop

> > perhaps, that would allow me to communicate with the typewritten word. As

> > such, it would be much the same as I am doing right now-- expressing myself

> > by

> > typing. I do not think that is what FC is supposed to be. I had already

> > decided that FC is mostly B.S., from what I have heard of it.

>

> It sure as hell is and i have to share with you that 's

> mom is a member of ANI, which pushes FC as part of its philosophy.

That's still not the same as knowing that it has occurred. Now, in my mind, it

is a question mark... but this is based on your prior-knowledge objection, not

on the article itself. Had it been some other name attached, what would you

think? Is it that impossible that a person, one who goes to college, let's

say, could use a device like a computer to make it easier to communicate?

Serious question; not rhetorical.

[Guest guest]

Antryg Windrose wrote:

> Why would a parent do that? I mean, I know that many do, but I fail

> to understand why.

Probably a manifestation of autistic-child guilt complex. This is something

that seems to rule a large part of the autistic-child treatment industry.

> From what I know of university and other

> tertiary education, it would be difficult for a parent to do all the work

> for his/her child, particularly as a lot of the assessed work is

> completed in classes or exams on campus. Of course, studying

> externally would be different, but I would assume that there would

> be supervised examinations. When I was homeschool for part of

> secondary school, I had to sit supervised tests.

Many of my university class grades were based entirely on the midterm exam and

the final exam. However, if the parents managed to get themselves listed as a

part of the student's disability assistance (no idea what it would really be

called, but it would be like an IEP), they might be allowed to FC during the

test, even if the instructor objected.

> Does FC only include a human facilitator or does it also mean

> using mechanical aids for communication, such as the things I

> have seen patients with motor-neurone diseases use to type words

> which the machine speaks? Those things looked more convenient

> than laptops, as they were clipped onto the walking frames or

> wheelchairs of these people.

I may have been interpreting the terms wrong, but I thought that FC was only

when there was a person there assisting.

> Having speech or communication passed through another person

> seems a little dodgy to me.

Very much so. I remember reading about the FC assistant holding the person's

hands over the keyboard, helping them press the letters. That would be like

typing with a hand puppet on my hand and claiming it was the puppet's work.

[Guest guest]

jwholphin48@... wrote:

> > Does FC only include a human facilitator.

>

> Yes.

>

> The other options that you describe are simply assistive technology

> and I know people who use them independently.

And that is really what I was talking about here. The title of the thread

contains " Assistive Technlogy, " and in the article, that is what is being

talked about. Whether or not the article is a fraudulent piece written by Ms.

Baggs' parents is not really what I was getting at, although it is

interesting. What I was getting at is whether speech should be " pushed " as

being the ideal, and whether doing so is analogous to forced normality training

that too many autistic kids have to endure.

[Guest guest]

At 06:49 AM 1/19/02 -0500, you wrote:

>Tons of good research is available that shows that even with the most passive

>contact or just the presence of someone in the same room, manipulation of

>the communication by the facilitator can and usually does occur.

> There are a few cases where the people type completely

>independently.

>But they are rare. Even in these cases, the person is not able to use it for

>Many practical purposes and amounts to little more than a traveling autism

>Circus act, for the benefit of parents or professionals who feed off this.

>Most of the time, FC is bullshit and a very dangerous communication option.

> I have a great book on the FC cult, called " A Passion To Believe " ,

>written by a good friend of mine, Diane Twachtmann. Let me know if

>you want to borrow it.

>

> Jerry

I have one of those rare cases, but he's not a traveling circus act, just a

kid going to school like my others. Sometimes I take him on my rare travels

but he was not the son I had with me in Toronto, that was Ben, my Aspie son.

Anyway.... .. began FC at 3, started talking at 6, (and reading aloud

anything put in front of him) dropped FC in grade 3, has full time 1-1 at

school and until this year insisted I be in the room when he did his

homework. Now he does his homework in the other room. He does the regular

(grade 9) curriculum, does all his tests independently (always has) and

maintains an 85% or better average.

I believe he was not meant to talk but somehow beat it. He has a huge

vocabulary but his articulation is poor. His receptive language is very

good. He talks the same way he types, mostly in phrases, leaving out small

words sometimes, a bit of pronoun reversal etc and is more " verbal " than

" conversational " .

If " Most of the time, FC is bullshit and a very dangerous communication

option. " then is the exception. It gave him a way to do school work

and was one of his communication tools from aged 3 to 8 when he started

typing on his own. As far as typing at home went, he was as likely to use

my computer in the other room as his notebook but liked to do " pencil work "

(math etc) with me around and he just does it, he doesn't ask for help so I

don't see that I could be influencing his pencil.

I know it works, for at least one person in the world. I know it can lead

to independence. I've been there. I saw and felt it happen.

-jypsy

________________________________

Ooops....Wrong Planet! Syndrome

Autism Spectrum Resources

http://www.isn.net/~jypsy

jypsy@...

[Guest guest]

jwholphin48@... wrote:

> > Yes, I certainly know the type. You did not tell me you knew anything

> > personally about this before, Jerry. Even so, " there is a good chance " is

> > not

> > the same as something being a given.

> >

>

> No, but having witnessed too much of this, I am more

> skeptical than you are.

Yes, I can see how that would be true.

> I think a lot more of them would speak if the hyper parents would

> chill out and more attention was placed on exercise, hot tubs and other

> stuff to help the child relax. These FC type kids are usually incredibly

> high strung and grow up in emotional hothouses.

I am a lot less high-strung myself since I have been on Paxil. My mother used

to comment almost daily on how I was always " wired " when I was growing up. My

reservoir of stress-tolerance juice is bigger now than it was before SSRIs. I

am incredibly lucky to respond so well to this class of drug... this sort of

effect seems to be atypical in the ranks of those on the spectrum.

> Well, I for example, know you and I also know Temple so I have

> no problem trusting the authorship of either of you but when I see

> purported testimony from a person, whose mom is a fan of FC and

> acts as her mom does, I am skeptical.

I see. I have no experience in that area, as I am sure you know. Even so,

suspicion is just that, and the article does talk about assistive technology,

and FC is not even mentioned. If the article is a result of FC, it is a fraud,

and if Tisoncik actually responded to email, I would ask her if she had

any knowledge of this.

> But at this point, , you know what i know so why do you keep

> harping on it?

Because your suspicions are only that, but you portray them as proven fact.

The only things you have said are that her parents are overprotective and

manipulative, and that they belong to a group that supports FC. None of this

rises to the level that I would think appropriate to directly contradict the

direct statements in the article listed. That is why I continued to " harp " on

the topic. It is you that have tired of it, not I.

> I have to end my half of this dialogue. I don't have this

> much time for such stuff. And neither will you I hope, someday.

Come on, this is great! The list has had nine messages all month until now. I

hope I am never so short on time that I do not have time for things like this.

[Guest guest]

> A matter of opinion. Compared to getting out of here and

> driving

> to the spa, exercising and enjoying the day ( and it's the same day

> for you since we live in the same city) this ain't so great

>

> But e-mail beats total isolation for sure.

For me, total isolation would beat sitting in a public spa or any

other public place for that matter.

CZ

[Guest guest]

I like isolation, but it is possible to keep that up at the pool. Especially

underwater, everything is so delightfully muffled. But the change rooms are

just ughh!

songshirah

Re: Comments on assistive technology

> A matter of opinion. Compared to getting out of here and

> driving

> to the spa, exercising and enjoying the day ( and it's the same day

> for you since we live in the same city) this ain't so great

>

> But e-mail beats total isolation for sure.

For me, total isolation would beat sitting in a public spa or any

other public place for that matter.

CZ

[Guest guest]

Sandi Dawson wrote:

>

> I like isolation, but it is possible to keep that up at the pool. Especially

underwater, everything is so delightfully muffled.

I had swimming pools and hot tubs (jacuzzi, whirlpool, whatever you want to

call them) at the apartment complices in which I lived for the past eleven

years. How many times did I use them? Once, back in 1991, at midnight, two

hours after they closed. Haven't felt the need to go in there since.

I much prefer isolation at home to anything else. Even when I go to the

grocery store for food, I get to longing to be in my apartment. I require very

little stimulation; there is not much reason to go out if it can be avoided.

> But the change rooms are just ughh!

When you wrote that, I had a vision of a room full of coins... stacks and

stacks of them. Kind of like Scrooge McDuck and his money bin on Duck Tales.

[Guest guest]

LOL at your scrooge mc duck vision - I could just picture it! What do you call

the changing rooms?

sandi

Re: Comments on assistive technology

Sandi Dawson wrote:

>

> I like isolation, but it is possible to keep that up at the pool.

Especially underwater, everything is so delightfully muffled.

I had swimming pools and hot tubs (jacuzzi, whirlpool, whatever you want to

call them) at the apartment complices in which I lived for the past eleven

years. How many times did I use them? Once, back in 1991, at midnight, two

hours after they closed. Haven't felt the need to go in there since.

I much prefer isolation at home to anything else. Even when I go to the

grocery store for food, I get to longing to be in my apartment. I require

very

little stimulation; there is not much reason to go out if it can be avoided.

> But the change rooms are just ughh!

When you wrote that, I had a vision of a room full of coins... stacks and

stacks of them. Kind of like Scrooge McDuck and his money bin on Duck Tales.

[Guest guest]

Sandi Dawson wrote:

>

> LOL at your scrooge mc duck vision - I could just picture it! What do you

call the changing rooms?

Locker rooms, generally... but I am familiar with the term 'change room,' from

the Crash Test Dummies' song Mmmm Mmmm Mmmm Mmmm (of all places).

[Guest guest]

At 08:32 AM 1/19/02 -0500, you wrote:

> I think a lot more of them would speak if the hyper parents would

>chill out and more attention was placed on exercise, hot tubs and other

>stuff to help the child relax. These FC type kids are usually incredibly

>high strung and grow up in emotional hothouses.

> Jerry

Maybe that's why talks. Can't get much more laid back than the

Autistic-Space of our house. Aspie mom, dad no doubt on the spectrum, half

the family " officially " Dxed on the Spectrum..... Certainly not an

" emotional hothouse " . I was sure wouldn't talk, was sure he

would. I was wrong. No hot tub but one of our best ever purchases- a high

quality trampoline, still in daily use 7 years later.

I get a lot of letters from these hyper parents...they want eye contact, a

word, a cure.... The ones who have verbal children want to get rid of the

obsessive conversations and talk about something other than cars or trains

while the parents of non verbals would be happy with the word " car " . Those

hyper parents won't chill out until their kids are " normal " and probably

not even then.

-jypsy

________________________________

Ooops....Wrong Planet! Syndrome

Autism Spectrum Resources

http://www.isn.net/~jypsy

jypsy@...

[Guest guest]

Speaking of obsessions, my latest is hexing clothes for a game called Babyz. I

just so get changing the coding lines to create new patterns and textures. I am

having so much fun! I think I've seen every internet site out there that there

is. But then I am like that, I HAVE to know every little piece of information

there possibly is and then, when I feel I know enough, the obsession drops and I

move on to a new one which I enjoy just as much. They last anywhere between

months and years, and then there are those that wax and wane with their

intesity. What's yours?

sandi

Re: Comments on assistive technology

>

>> A matter of opinion. Compared to getting out of here and

>> driving

>> to the spa, exercising and enjoying the day ( and it's the same day

>> for you since we live in the same city) this ain't so great

>>

>> But e-mail beats total isolation for sure.

>

>For me, total isolation would beat sitting in a public spa or any

>other public place for that matter.

>

>CZ

Absolutely! That's why I love this place...even though I haven't had a lot

of time to spend here recently, what with my Lord of the Rings obsession and

all.

[Guest guest]

>

>Is there incongruence in advocating for acceptance of autistic people as

>autistic people, not as NT clones, and still thinking that promotion of

verbal

>ability is a good thing? Is Ms. Baggs referring to the all-consuming NT

need

>to make everyone they see be just like them, not to the obvious truth that

>speaking makes one's life easier?

>

>Any thoughts?

>

I see no incongruence at all. As Ms. Baggs stated, " In some cases, an

autistic person may want to speak. If that's so, then they should certainly

be given the opportunity to learn. "

As an autistic person and the mother of an autistic child, I have an

approach that I use when helping my son learn any " typical " NT skill. I

never assume that he will be unable to learn a skill. My goal is not to

turn him into an NT clone, but I also refuse to turn him into a " typical "

autistic person. Therefore, I always assume that he will be able to learn

skills, but it is my responsibility to be creative in the ways that I help

him to learn.

I refuse to impose limitations on my son just because he is autistic, just

as I refuse to expect " typical " NT behavior from him. He is a unique

individual with unique abilities. We never know what those abilities are

until we explore them.

To me it sounded like Ms. Baggs was criticizing the NT need to make people

be the same even if to be the same is in truth a handicap for some people.

[Guest guest]

-

>

>> Well, without being there in person, I cannot say, but it would appear

>> that Ms. Baggs is writing independently. She talks of attending a

>> university... so she is certainly not a low-functioning person in any

>> way I can tell.

>

>I am attending a university at the moment. I will know in three

>weeks or so whether I will be continuing on to do an undergraduate

>degree. I am capable of speaking in conversation with people, but I

>find it confusing and it usually overloads me very quickly or I lose

>track of what they or I am saying. My Dad commented yesterday

>while driving me to university that when I type (he said not just in

>email to him but in other writing of mine that I have shown him) my

>thinking is very lucid, clear and logical when compared to how it

>comes across in speech. Tonight is a bad example, as I have been

>out to the cinema and two shopping centres and a foodhall today

>and am quite overloaded now.

>

>Speech is difficult (not the production of sound... but rather

>focussing on the discourse and trying to make sense without being

> " tangential " ) and I much prefer typed communication. I would not

>prefer to sit and type while others spoke to me, however. I prefer

>communication over the internet. It has made the concepts of

> " friendship " and group interaction accessible to me in a way that I

>have never experienced previously. I rarely get overloaded by

>conversation on irc or in email, whereas I almost always do by

>verbal conversations in person or on the phone.

Ditto. I don't " do " chat rooms because they happen in real time. I'm much

more comfortable with the ability to have time to think about my responses

before I make them and to organize all my thoughts into something that makes

sense. If I'm tossed into a real-time conversation about something for

which I don't have prepared scripts or statements, I think that I sound very

disjointed in my speech, and there are lots of pauses and tangential

comments. I've been working on maintaining trains of thought to improve my

spoken communication.

>

>

>> > There are a few cases where the people type completely

>> > independently.

>> > But they are rare.

>>

>> Why would that be rare? If someone has difficulty expressing herself

>> verbally, using a keyboard might be a good alternative. I have

>> emailed with one autistic female that is much lower functioning than

>> anyone here who claims that it is much easier for her to use email

>> than it is to talk vocally.

>

>I find that too. That is why " I don't do three-dimensional friends " , as

>I often put it when asked why I do not " get a life " .

>

>University this last two weeks has been sheer hell not because of

>the difficulty (or lack thereof) of the work, but because of the

>number of people and their social behaviours and inability to think

>critically in class debates. Yesterday, while I was waiting for Dad

>to come and pick me up, one of the young male students made

>some idle conversation about essays (joining in a brief conversation

>I was having with a female student as she walked past... about how

>she is doing since she has a disability and had been in my Social

>Science class but got transferred to Stats).

>

>The male student (whose name I do not know) said to me that I will

> " breeze through " and remarked on how I exude critical thinking (I

>think he said " exude " ... if not it was a word to the same effect).

>When I asked what made him think that, he said " You question

>everything " . There appears (judging by group work) to be a

>common assumption among many of the people in my classes

>that because I am usually quiet and I avoid eye contact I must

>therefore not have valid or intelligent opinions in group debates. If

>they had any prolonged contact with me via email or irc they would

>realise that I am not stupid or crazy just because I do not

>communicate effectively when speaking.

>

>

>> > Even in these cases, the person is not able to use it for

>> > Many practical purposes and amounts to little more than a traveling

>> > autism Circus act, for the benefit of parents or professionals who

>> > feed off this. Most of the time, FC is bullshit and a very dangerous

>> > communication option.

>>

>> I am aware of that... but I think we are talking about something

>> totally different here. It would be more like a mute person using a

>> typewriter and showing the paper to

>

>[the intended recipient of her communication]

>

> whomever she is talking to (I

>> could not think of a way to make that one not end with a preposition).

>> It appears that she is a high-functioning individual that has

>> difficulty with expressive verbal communication, and so prefers

>> typing. I am imagining myself with greatly reduced vocal abilities.

>> I might use some sort of electronic device, a laptop perhaps, that

>> would allow me to communicate with the typewritten word. As such, it

>> would be much the same as I am doing right now-- exprssing myself by

>> typing. I do not think that is what FC is supposed to be. I had

>> already decided that FC is mostly B.S., from what I have heard of

>it.

>

>The first autism list I joined was a high volume list populated by

>non-autistic people bickering over FC versus ABA. Luckily, I also

>joined a couple of other lists and realised that autism-related

>mailing lists are not always filled with useless garbage. I think as a

>child I would have found both FC and ABA (and many other

>interventions of which I have heard... teehee no preposition on the

>end of that.. damn you - I have been aware of every time I

>ended a sentence with a preposition for quite a few months thanks

>to you)

I used to be like that...no prepositions at the ends of sentences. Now when

I end a sentence with a preposition, I do it purposely...to be a grammar

rebel ).

> to be unacceptable. One of the best things about living

>alone in my own house is that nobody can (either forcefully or

>slyly) coerce me into engaging in conversation or putting up with

>sensory stimuli caused by cohabitants (such as TVs and radios

>among many other things).

>

>Sorry if this email was not very logical or lucid. I am going to get

>something to drink and then go to bed, as my mind and body are

>tired.

>

It sounded logical and lucid to me, but I'm generally not the best judge of

lucidity. I am, however, a stickler for logic ).

[Guest guest]

>> I have to end my half of this dialogue. I don't have this

>> much time for such stuff. And neither will you I hope, someday.

>

>Come on, this is great! The list has had nine messages all month until

now. I

>hope I am never so short on time that I do not have time for things like

this.

>

>

>

I agree. I miss having these kinds of exchanges. And to throw a new twist

in, I have a cousin who has a problem that is the exact opposite of what we

have been discussing. When he was a junior in high school, it was

discovered (finally...after so many years of school) that he could not " do "

written communication. His teachers started giving him oral tests, and he

started making good grades for the first time ever. If a situation like

that can exist, then it makes sense to me that the opposite could

exist...particularly for people who tend to think in pictures instead of

words. I communicate much better when I can see the words that are coming

out of me and not just hear them.