Re: sew my lips shut and tie my hands closed

[Guest guest]

> I couldn't begin to count how many times I've swore to myself that I would

> never open my mouth again, never say another word, never type another word,

> remain silent forever. But communication seems almost compulsive with me

> and no matter how badly I want to keep my mouth shut, eventually I just end

> up opening it again and the whole cycle starts all over.

That sort of thing seems to happen with me a lot.

I used to want to not have to talk, although that was mainly sensory and

eventually resolved itself.

But I also often wish I did not get on the net every day and communicate

directly with people. It takes up too much of my day that I could be

using to do the things I really want to be doing. I want to write, but

I don't want to necessarily write to mailing lists and newsgroups all

the time. Right now, there is a large writing project that I truly want

to be doing, but I can't wrench myself away from the email program.

When I get a new apartment, I'm almost wondering if it would be worth it

to have two computers in two separate places, one for writing and one

for the net. I have an extra and used laptop with no net connection, so

it's a possibility. But then it's hampered by the fact that some of the

stuff I want to write, I write for the net, and some of the research I

do for what I write is on the net. That would be an executive function

nightmare.

And on the net, I also get into situations like the one you're

describing, and the emotions inolved take up energy and time that I

would rather be using for other things.

I also wish someone would tie my hands closed, but for another reason.

I have a very explosive temper and sometimes throw things. I have done

everything I know how in terms of controlling it, and I still sometimes

throw things. I suspect it may have in the end cost me one important

friendship, and I completely understand why, but my problem is not lack

of motivation.

It makes me either want to not interact with people in person at all, or

to tie my hands down with one of the infernal restraint devices they

used in psych wards (one of them was a belt strapped around the waist

with straps for the wrists). The only problem is that PTSD triggers are

the number one cause of any violence on my part, restraint belts are

*huge* PTSD triggers, and my hands are so small that I can get out of

any strap that doesn't cut off my circulation.

I've already been on a wide variety of the neuroleptics that are

supposedly recommended for " behavior control " (clozapine, haloperidol,

thiothixene, fluphenazine, risperidone, quetiapine, trifluoperazine,

chlorpromazine, perphenazine, and olanzopine, to be exact) and the doses

it took to control behavior were doses that also induced Parkinsonism

and/or brain damage. Doses below that caused worse behavior, and I know

that the function of that class of drugs is to cause a mind-body

disconnect, which I've already got too much of to begin with, and that

they also cause permanent brain damage that becomes more inevitable the

longer you take them (and I already have some). So the neuroleptic

route is out even if I thought those things were safe, which I don't.

Other pharmaceuticals mostly don't work -- sedatives cause disinhibition

and worse violence, antidepressants cause loss of impulse control and

more violence, and so forth, even if I wanted things like that in my

body regularly. I have *one* thing I can take, but it's not like I keep

it next to me all the time, and the fast-acting form is expensive and

possibly (because of manufacturing techniques) dangerous.

But my mental control techniques, while they appear to have shifted over

time from working 0% of the time to 25% of the time to 50% of the time

to maybe 80% or 90% of the time, are not foolproof. I have an entire

set of strategies. My next one will be trying to learn either ASL or

SEE sign to give me some way to express myself with my hands when I'm

pissed besides smashing and throwing things. (It's very disturbing to

sit back and watch myself look for something to throw while all routes

from rational thought to action are being short-circuited, or even worse

to black out and be told I did something horrible I can't remember. And

I'm imagining it's much more disturbing for anyone else in the room,

even if I deliberately aim far away from them.)

The main immediate alternative I have is screaming. But some people

perceive that as equally violent and discourage me from doing that,

which means I suppress screaming and end up throwing something.

So I can definitely grasp the concept of wanting to tie my hands

closed. Or just not be in the same room with people. Or something.

I'm running out of ideas.

--

It is the great triumph of compulsory government monopoly mass-schooling

that among even the best of my fellow teachers, and among even the best

of my students' parents, only a small number can imagine a different way

to do things. " Gatto

[Guest guest]

Sparrow danced around singing:

>It's the cycle where I say something -- something innocuous (or so I

>thought), something helpful (or so I thought), just something. Not

>malicious. Not hateful. Not hurtful. Just reaching out to another human,

>trying to be on the same planet with the rest of the world. But then what I

>said was wrong or was taken wrong or was said to the wrong person or at the

>wrong time. And then everything crumbles apart around me. Again.

If I'm thinking of the right mess, it was because you didn't realize that

the person you were trying to help is a genuinely defective nasty NT, and

her overprotective husband. I didn't get home until well after the mess

had started, then I was pretty much disabled by depression myself -- it was

one of those long drives home where the main objective in some part of the

mind is to keep the rest from intentionally veering into oncoming traffic

-- so I couldn't do anything.

At the moment, I feel like I can't correctly handle human relations at all,

and if I weren't exhausted, would be upset with myself for even trying. I

should, by all logic, spend the rest of my life talking with cats and

reading books, where I can't cause (or participate in) disasters that will

just leave me upset for days. As you put it about a year ago on this very

list, " I felt passionate for someone once, and it was horrid. " (Except I

get passionate over almost everything, if I feel anything at all, not just

people.)

>And tonight, someone asked for help. No one else answered. So I answered.

>They looked like they really needed help badly. So I tried to help. And

>they lashed out.

That's what happens to me whenever I try to be on lists with NTs. I think

that when we challenge their authority, they get ticked off at us.

>And my temper flared. And I felt ashamed that, once again,

>my temper controlled me instead of the other way around. So I did

>everything I could to stop. And I succeeded. I stopped. But they didn't.

>They lashed out some more and when I didn't respond, the insults grew and

>grew until they were insulting my personality, my talents, my skills, my

>ability to connect with other people. Everything they could think of touching.

I'm tempted, now that I'm back to being in more of an angry mood than a

depressed one, or rather the " fu** it, I don't care " one I have once in a

while, to start replying to all of their comments. I'm not sure if that

would upset you more, though, so unless you say it is OK, I will not.

>And it shouldn't affect me. Cruel people aren't worth being upset over. But

>instead of shrugging it off like I ought to, I just keep getting more and

>more depressed as the night goes on. It takes so little to push me over the

>edge from my normal dysthymia - something I can live with fairly well - to

>the beginnings of that downward spiral, throat so tight it aches, eyes

>steadily leaking like a worn faucet, and the sinking fear, not knowing if

>it will dip down and come back up or keep spinning downwards, depression

>growing out of all proportion to the triggering event.

I spent most of the afternoon/evening like that. I'm just empty now, too

tired to be depressed.

>I stopped. I did the right thing.

I don't know if it was the right thing. They were being big jerks; I am

not sure that not fighting is always the best option.

> But I still suffer anyway. And I know

>that no matter how much I wish I could just stop talking, the cycle will

>keep playing out because the urge to communicate is so much stronger than

>my will power, so much stronger than my need to avoid the ongoing, always

>repeating pain, the agony that has chosen to be my life's companion,

>nipping at my heels, following me no matter how far I go, how fast I flee.

When not compulsively writing lists, I actually have responses that are the

opposite -- if I get too upset, I *do* flee. I just stop talking to the

individual, do everything I can to shut out my awareness that s/he

exists... The problem is that it's become so ingrained a habit that I have

no idea how to behave otherwise: I now can't *not* run away from

things. It's very upsetting, when I want to stick around to work on a

problem, whether it is on the lists, homework, private mail, or otherwise,

and instead I find myself doing a ton of things to avoid even acknowledging

that the problem or people involved exist. It was a functional trait at

some point, I expect, but it's not now.

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

" I for one do NOT want to be part of a culture

that thinks it's ok to taunt tease and destroy

those who differ from the majority. " -- K. Yelbis

[Guest guest]

Sparrow

First of all, it's not your fault. Some people are incapable of receiving

advice in the spirit in which it was meant. That is their problem. It took

me a very long time to figure it out, but I finally realized that I am not

responsible for every single reaction that every single person has to me.

Everyone has preconcieved notions and baggage of some sort, and that is

generally what is at the bottom of responses like you got. But that isn't

your problem. I admire you for trying to help, and I think that you are a

good person ).

sew my lips shut and tie my hands closed

> I couldn't begin to count how many times I've swore to myself that I would

> never open my mouth again, never say another word, never type another

word,

> remain silent forever. But communication seems almost compulsive with me

> and no matter how badly I want to keep my mouth shut, eventually I just

end

> up opening it again and the whole cycle starts all over.

>

> It's the cycle where I say something -- something innocuous (or so I

> thought), something helpful (or so I thought), just something. Not

> malicious. Not hateful. Not hurtful. Just reaching out to another human,

> trying to be on the same planet with the rest of the world. But then what

I

> said was wrong or was taken wrong or was said to the wrong person or at

the

> wrong time. And then everything crumbles apart around me. Again.

>

> And tonight, someone asked for help. No one else answered. So I answered.

> They looked like they really needed help badly. So I tried to help. And

> they lashed out. And my temper flared. And I felt ashamed that, once

again,

> my temper controlled me instead of the other way around. So I did

> everything I could to stop. And I succeeded. I stopped. But they didn't.

> They lashed out some more and when I didn't respond, the insults grew and

> grew until they were insulting my personality, my talents, my skills, my

> ability to connect with other people. Everything they could think of

touching.

>

> And it shouldn't affect me. Cruel people aren't worth being upset over.

But

> instead of shrugging it off like I ought to, I just keep getting more and

> more depressed as the night goes on. It takes so little to push me over

the

> edge from my normal dysthymia - something I can live with fairly well - to

> the beginnings of that downward spiral, throat so tight it aches, eyes

> steadily leaking like a worn faucet, and the sinking fear, not knowing if

> it will dip down and come back up or keep spinning downwards, depression

> growing out of all proportion to the triggering event.

>

> I stopped. I did the right thing. But I still suffer anyway. And I know

> that no matter how much I wish I could just stop talking, the cycle will

> keep playing out because the urge to communicate is so much stronger than

> my will power, so much stronger than my need to avoid the ongoing, always

> repeating pain, the agony that has chosen to be my life's companion,

> nipping at my heels, following me no matter how far I go, how fast I flee.

>

> Sparrow

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

>

>>It's the cycle where I say something -- something innocuous (or so I

>>thought), something helpful (or so I thought), just something. Not

>>malicious. Not hateful. Not hurtful. Just reaching out to another human,

>>trying to be on the same planet with the rest of the world. But then what I

>>said was wrong or was taken wrong or was said to the wrong person or at the

>>wrong time. And then everything crumbles apart around me. Again.

>>

>>

I know exactly what you mean. I have found that the NT world is

like a mine field. I have been hurt so many times by their unwarrented

reactions, that I just don't care anymore. I wll say what I have to

say, and the NT world be damned.

[Guest guest]

Sparrow wrote:

>They looked like they really needed help badly. So I tried to help. And

>they lashed out. And my temper flared. And I felt ashamed that, once again,

>my temper controlled me instead of the other way around. So I did

>everything I could to stop. And I succeeded. I stopped. But they didn't.

>They lashed out some more and when I didn't respond, the insults grew and

>grew until they were insulting my personality, my talents, my skills, my

>ability to connect with other people. Everything they could think of touching.

I rarely come up with Rules for Life, but I suspect this

is a situation where it's possible to have a Rule.

When people react like that, nothing they say has anything

to do with you. They were nastiness waiting to happen. You

just happened to trigger them, the way a child may trigger

a buried landmine (left over from some war that began before

the child was born) and have a leg blown off. It's not the

child's fault.

When people erupt in yuk like that, I simply close myself

against them. Try to cultivate the " anthropologist on

Mars " mind-set for such occasions. You should not feel

obligated to bear any emotional burden as a result of

their being screwed up. (There's a good deal of irony

in this need for autistics to put up walls against NT

emotional sh*t-dumping, given the NT proclivity for

labeling us " cold. " )

One of my sisters told me that when she started dating

(and later married) someone from a noticeably different

ethnic ( " racial " ) background, a lot of people would

react negatively to the sight of the two of them

together. (This was in the 1960-1970s.) She was very

skillful at maintaining at the front of her

consciousness the knowledge that the way those people

reacted to her/them was information about *them*, not

about her and her friend/husband.

Much the same is true of many of the weird and upsetting

interactions between NTs and ACs, I think.

Jane

[Guest guest]

At 02:28 AM 6/7/03 -0700, wrote:

>But I also often wish I did not get on the net every day and communicate

>directly with people. It takes up too much of my day that I could be

>using to do the things I really want to be doing.

I know that feeling. I freed up a lot of time (and emotional resources)

when I tore myself away from IRC, but I still spend a lot of hours on

e-mail every day.

>When I get a new apartment, I'm almost wondering if it would be worth it

>to have two computers in two separate places, one for writing and one

>for the net. I have an extra and used laptop with no net connection, so

>it's a possibility. But then it's hampered by the fact that some of the

>stuff I want to write, I write for the net, and some of the research I

>do for what I write is on the net. That would be an executive function

>nightmare.

I've thought about the separation, too, but came to the same conclusion.

Most of the research books I use (dictionaries, etc.) are online (I use an

online OED, online Greek and Latin dictionaries and so on.) Many of the

things I want to write are expansions of things I've said in e-mail so I

need my e-mail nearby to " harvest " my words out of it. I collect quotes and

references from online that I want to mention in essays and I'd have to

transfer those words over, too. There's just too much interaction between

my writing and things that are online or have been gathered from online for

me to separate the two functions so distinctly and still remain efficient

(and sane.)

>And on the net, I also get into situations like the one you're

>describing, and the emotions inolved take up energy and time that I

>would rather be using for other things.

I used to get into these sorts of situations in real life but then I quit

associating with people so now I only get into them online. They're only

slightly less stressful for me online than in person. Very slightly.

>I also wish someone would tie my hands closed, but for another reason.

>I have a very explosive temper and sometimes throw things. I have done

>everything I know how in terms of controlling it, and I still sometimes

>throw things.

I used to throw things a lot and I wish I knew how I stopped so that I

could tell you and maybe help you. I know how painful it is, how

embarassing afterwards, how alienating (who wants to be around someone that

frightens them?), and also how painful it can be to break something you

really really loved and be full of sorrow that it's gone forever but get

only " anti-sympathy " from people around you becaue, well, you're the one

who broke it after all. I had a big grey hand-thrown bowl and it was the

only dish I would eat out of for four years and I broke it in a fit of

frustration and temper. I still mourn that beautiful bowl. Most people just

don't understand that.

I threw something about a year ago, but before that it had been about four

years since I'd thrown something. The last time I banged my head against

hard things was about two years ago. I wish I knew why/how I stopped these

things so that maybe my experience could be helpful for others, but I don't

know. I am happy, though, that I have been able to stop these things and

hope that they stay stopped.

>I've already been on a wide variety of the neuroleptics that are

>supposedly recommended for " behavior control " (clozapine, haloperidol,

haloperidol made me feel like the inside of my mouth was bigger than the

outside of my head. Did it do that to you, too? It was a frightening and

uncomfortable sensation and my mouth hurt all the time when I was on it.

[snip]

>So the neuroleptic

>route is out even if I thought those things were safe, which I don't.

Same here. I have reacted poorly to every psych drug I've been put on.

There are times when I really really wish there were some pill I could take

that would " make things better " but after years of experimentation (and

being experimented on) I've given up on that option.

>But my mental control techniques, while they appear to have shifted over

>time from working 0% of the time to 25% of the time to 50% of the time

>to maybe 80% or 90% of the time, are not foolproof.

My ability to remain in control seems to shift dramatically from day to

day. Overall, I think it's improved, but in the moment it's hard to

remember that because I'm constantly sliding back and climbing forward.

>(It's very disturbing to

>sit back and watch myself look for something to throw while all routes

>from rational thought to action are being short-circuited, or even worse

>to black out and be told I did something horrible I can't remember. And

>I'm imagining it's much more disturbing for anyone else in the room,

>even if I deliberately aim far away from them.)

I often black out moments of stress. It's not uncommon for me to just not

remember at all having had a fight with someone. I will run into people

online who don't like me and it turns out that it's because of a horrible

fight we had that I don't even remember having. Or sometimes I'll remember

that " something " happened between myself and a person but no matter how

hard I search my brain, I can't recall what it was. It leaves me feeling

very insecure about other people because I never know when I see someone in

person or online if they will still like me or if something happened to

make them not like me but I forgot about it.

>The main immediate alternative I have is screaming. But some people

>perceive that as equally violent and discourage me from doing that,

>which means I suppress screaming and end up throwing something.

The few times I have started screaming, my partner has made efforts to

dissuade me from doing so because he's afraid someone will call the police

and either I'll get taken away to a hospital for observation or he'll get

taken away for domestic violence or both. He has never laid a hand on me in

anger or violence but I can understand his fear because the laws are set up

so strongly to protect women that sometimes men get arrested for nothing

(mostly they get arrested for something but it does happen that they get

arrested for nothing.) I try to keep from screaming or running out into the

street (which I've also done before) because I don't want to go back to the

mental hospital and I don't want him to suffer an undeserved felony (and

the way the laws are set up, if the state decides to prosecute, it doesn't

matter how much I say that nothing happened, it's out of my hands because

domestic violence is prosecuted by the state, not by the alleged victim.)

>So I can definitely grasp the concept of wanting to tie my hands

>closed. Or just not be in the same room with people. Or something.

>I'm running out of ideas.

It can be really hard.

I'm feeling somewhat better today (though I woke up with eyes so swollen I

couldn't see. I woke up a few times in the night and I was crying in my

sleep.) and I think I'll be okay, but this episode has me seriously

concerned. If I'm so weak that it takes almost nothing to set me off, how

do I expect to be able to cope with going to school this Fall? I'm trying

to have confidence in myself and am so strongly determined to just keep my

mouth shut at all times and if I am required to say something, to stop and

think it through carefully before I open my mouth. I don't know if I can do

it or not, but I want to go back to school so very badly that I know I just

have to try.

I've gone to talk to two different advisors and people at the school are so

very nice I can hardly stand it. They are nurturing and kind and

encouraging. I don't know what the students will be like, but at least for

now the people in charge of things seem to like me. I hope I can keep it

that way. I don't even really care if I *do* anything with a degree, I just

want to go back to school so badly. I've got my class schedule all set up

and classes start at the end of August. I've even got all the classes for

my major mapped out semester by semester. I'm eager to do this and so

afraid that my lack of self-control will get in my way again.

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

At 03:32 AM 6/7/03 -0700, DeGraf wrote:

>If I'm thinking of the right mess, it was because you didn't realize that

>the person you were trying to help is a genuinely defective nasty NT, and

>her overprotective husband. I didn't get home until well after the mess

>had started, then I was pretty much disabled by depression myself -- it was

>one of those long drives home where the main objective in some part of the

>mind is to keep the rest from intentionally veering into oncoming traffic

>-- so I couldn't do anything.

Yes, that's the situation and I'm sorry that you got dragged into the whole

mess. :-( Now you're being targetted by them, too.

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

At 09:05 AM 6/7/03 -0400, Rakus wrote:

>Sparrow

>

>I admire you for trying to help, and I think that you are a

>good person ).

Thank you. What you say means a lot to me.

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

At 08:14 AM 6/7/03 -0800, Jane Meyerding wrote:

>When people erupt in yuk like that, I simply close myself

>against them. Try to cultivate the " anthropologist on

>Mars " mind-set for such occasions. You should not feel

>obligated to bear any emotional burden as a result of

>their being screwed up. (There's a good deal of irony

>in this need for autistics to put up walls against NT

>emotional sh*t-dumping, given the NT proclivity for

>labeling us " cold. " )

I've always wished I could be colder than I am. I've wished to be able to

turn off my emotions. When people describe aspies as being " Spock-like, "

I'm envious because I *want* to be Spock-like. I loved Spock as a child and

thought that being in such perfect control of one's emotions as Vulcans are

is the best way to be.

Instead, though, I'm a big, drippy, emotional mess. I wish Vulcan really

did exist because if it did, I would do anything to be able to take the

emotion training they give their children.

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

At 11:13 AM 6/7/03 -0500, Logan wrote:

> I know exactly what you mean. I have found that the NT world is

>like a mine field. I have been hurt so many times by their unwarrented

>reactions, that I just don't care anymore. I wll say what I have to

>say, and the NT world be damned.

I think most of them are just ignorant. They don't mean to be hurtful, but

they don't understand that they're dealing with a different " species " of

human so they interpret us as if we wre one of them.

Unfortunately, in the case I'm currently dealing with, it goes beyond

ignorance into cruelty. I've tried to analyze the situation as if I were an

NT myself and their reactions are not justified even then. Even if the

things I said are rude in the NT interpretation, the responses I got took

things out of the realm in which they were occuring and turned them into

the personal.

I try to give NTs the benefit of the doubt whenever I can because I know

that they just can't know what they're dealing with unless I walk around

with a placard around my neck that says, " hello, I have Asperger's

Syndrome " and then explains what that means in everyday terms. My

experience has been that most NTs are genuinely good at heart and want to

do the right thing but they just don't know. Unfortunately, there are

always those pig-headed, cruel, troglodytish NTs who don't care whether

they do the right thing just so long as they win what they want (money,

job, status, prestige, etc.) and they often give everyone else a bad name

because their actions are so visible and overwhelming.

The people I've been dealing with recently are the latter type.

I'm not against the NT world in general, just the crappy members of

society. The ignorance does hurt, too, but I have an easier time dealing

with that. I have this eternal Polly/Anne /Helen Keller sort of

outlook on the world and the ignorant don't touch that outlook but the

intentionally cruel really upset my world because no matter how hard I try

to remember that intentionally cruel people are out there, I seem to be

wired towards a world full of well-meaning, though sometimes ignorant, people.

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

>I have a very explosive temper and

>sometimes throw things. I have done

>everything I know how in terms of

>controlling it, and I still sometimes throw

>things.

Hi ,

Before I got sick and had my breakdown, I used to do a lot of dog

training for shows, and also ran classes for people to train their pets

One thing I found was that it's easy to train a dog to DO something, but

really hard to train a dog NOT to do something.

For example, many dogs like to jump on you when you come home. They are

excited and want attention. it's really hard to teach them not to jump.

However, if you teach them an alternate behavior, you can train them to

use this alternate behavior to get the attention they crave. So I would

have my students teach their dogs to sit on command. When the dog

really knew what sit meant and was reliable under calm circumstances, I

would have them start using the sit command as soon as they walked in

the door. Then they would praise the dog and give it a treat. After a

while, the dog would start sitting on it's own.

>My next one will be trying to learn either

>ASL or SEE sign to give me some way to

>express myself with my hands when I'm

>pissed besides smashing and throwing

>things.

This sounds like a good idea---you would be teaching yourself an

alternate behavior. Another idea would be to buy yourself something you

can squeeze hard, like a spongerubber ball, and train yourself to use it

as soon as you feel angry. You could also try some aversive training,

such as wearing a rubberband on you wrist and snapping it when you start

to feel angry, then using the ball. However, sometimes pain might make

you feel angrier, so you'd have to experiment.

I have sort of the opposite problem: I bottle up all my anger and turn

it into depression. It took me a year of therapy to realize that I even

HAD anger, and to learn to recognize it when I felt it, altho I still

have problems with recognition of anger and other emotions. And now

that I can recognize it sometimes, I do tend to lose my temper

occasionally...sigh.

Lori