Re: New guy...

[Guest guest]

Wow , you went through a lot. Thanks for writing your story, stories

like this reminds me that I wasnt the only one who went through

this.

> It was at this point that I made the single worst decision in my

> entire life. I decided to go to the doctor. Oh if I could only

do

> it over again.

I constently think about this too, only if I had time machine to go

back it be great.

But lets not give up, you prob noticed by now if you read recent

postings that some members are getting good results with great hope

>

> Hi,

>

> I've been a member about a week and I thought I'd finally jump

in.

> Maybe I can learn something or perhaps my experiences might help

> someone. I'm basically completely shot. In my case it wasn't

just

> an SSRI (Paxil) but also a serotonergic tricyclic (Elavil) that

did

> me in. The frustration and anger that I've built up from seeing

> dozens of clueless doctors hasn't help me any either.

>

> About 7 years ago I was going through a very stressful period in

my

> life. I started getting strange physical sensations. I would lay

> down and my heart would race and I couldn't slow it down. I was

> getting fatigue and weakness in my legs and dry skin. At some

point

> I completely lost the ability to sleep. Basically, my nervous

system

> went into hyperdrive and I was burning out. The one thing that

was

> still working was my sex drive. I was as horny as ever and loving

> it.

>

> It was at this point that I made the single worst decision in my

> entire life. I decided to go to the doctor. Oh if I could only

do

> it over again. I would have eliminated the stressors. I would

have

> quit the job, sold the house and dumped the girl. I would have

> meditated and prayed. I would have taken 5htp or other natural

> supplements. But instead I went to the doctor and sealed my fate.

>

> If he had prescribed me 5 or 10mgs of Paxil it might have been

ok.

> But I started at 20mg and went up to 40mg per day. Initially it

> helped. It helped mute my over the top fight or flight response

and

> got me thinking " outside " of my head again. But of course after a

> while it started to kill my libido and make me anorgasmic. It

also

> didn't help with my chronic insomnia and in fact made it worse.

> After about a year of this I had had enough. After I stopped my

> libido did return but not to what it had been before. All the

other

> problems I was having also returned and even worse then before.

So

> we decided to try Elavil, which is supposed to be good for pain

and

> insomnia. It did work. At 25mg it knocked me out every night. I

> stayed with this for a couple of years but had to keep upping the

> dose until I was taking 100mg every night to get to sleep.

>

> It was at this point that I realized that I had been turned into a

> zombie. I didn't think about sex much anymore. My skin had dried

> out. I was losing my vitality. I decided to stop. I figured I'd

> taper down 25mg per week. Which is actually more slowly than is

> deemed necessary by the so-called experts. This was the second

worse

> decision of my entire life. Once I stopped my system went

completely

> haywire. I felt like my muscles were melting away. I had a weird

> tingling sensation in my chest and stomach. I became weak. I

> developed chronic testicular and pelvic pain. I began frantically

> running around to doctors who were of no help. Three different

> urologists prescribed me antibiotics for a nonexistant infection.

> What a nightmare.

>

> It's been a couple of years since that horrendous withdrawal.

I've

> spent that time reading and researching and trying to figure out

what

> happened to me. I have lost all motivation, desire and passion

for

> life. I feel old and frail. Unlike most of the people here my

> genitals have become too sensitive. Painful in fact. I still can

> get aroused but certainly not like before the meds. It's become a

> chore. Orgasms are weak and no more spontaneous erections. I

just

> feel like my brain is weak. I went to a fancy doctor in New York

> last year who did a QEEG and said it showed that I have extremely

low

> dopaminergic function. My father is 79 years old and is on

> medications for parkinsonism. So basically, these drugs did to me

in

> less than 4 years what it took life 70+ years to do to my father.

>

> I've tried a few different meds over the past year with varying

> results. These include:

>

> Zoloft - I know it sounds ridiculous but there was sound reasoning

> behind trying this. Was on it for 2 months. Different than

Paxil.

> Made me feel weird and knocked me out in the middle of the day.

As

> strange as it seems, when I stopped it I had the best 2 or 3 days

> that I've had in years. I'm still trying to figure out what

happened

> here.

>

> Wellbutrin - Helped with pain but knocked me out. Probably means

> there's a dopamine receptor issue.

>

> Neurontin - Helps with sleep and pain and makes me horny. There

has

> been speculation that neurontin effects dopamine metabolism but

it's

> mode of action remains elusive. Problem for me is that it wears

off

> quickly and have to keep upping the dose. Over time it feels like

> it's just burning me out more. I think this is the fatal flaw

with

> most meds that boost dopamine function.

>

> Lamictal - A complete disaster. I believed it further suppressed

my

> already hypofunctioning dopaminergic system. Felt rotten while on

it

> and horrible when I stopped.

>

> Cymbalta - First week it felt like Paxil. I have to say it helped

> with the genital pain/hypersensitivity. My bits and pieces

actually

> showed a glimmer of their former glory. This seemed to dissipate

> after a few weeks and all I got was a headache and more insomnia.

>

> 1/2 grain natural thyroid - Not sure if it helps but my thyroid

> numbers are borderline and I came up positive for thyroid

antibodies.

>

> I've decided to lay off of medications for a little while to give

my

> body a break. I'm taking a number of supplements. Some of them I

> purchased off of a Phd's website. He's into sexual health and is

> more knowledgeable than any MD I've ever seen. They're basically

> combinations of amino acids, cofactors, herbs and DHEA. It's only

> been a week or so, so it's too early to tell if they help. But it

is

> a very informative website nonetheless. In fact if I had access

to

> his knowledge before I went on meds I think it would have saved my

> life.

>

> Anyway, I know that chronic DL-phenylalanine has helped me a

little

> but it takes time. I had been taking it religiously for a few

months

> last spring. I was taking 1500mg in the AM and another 1500mg in

the

> afternoon. I started jogging again and felt like I was making

some

> progress. I may be so screwed up at this point that I need a med

or

> combination to get better. But I'm really becoming gun shy. Even

> the ones that help don't last and always seem to leave me worse

off

> than before. Sorry this post was so long...

>

> Thanks,

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Even though I feel overwhelmed at times I won't give up. I'm still trying to learn more about the biochemistry of it all. In particular, right now, I'm trying to learn more about phosphorylation and amino acid metabolism. Whenever I try a particular med or supplement I always try to monitor how I feel and write down if anything unusual happens. One thing that I noticed is that since I went down hill my urine has been very frothy. Almost like a head of beer sometimes. I went back and checked my lab work and indeed it's been very acidic. Right around a pH of 5.0. I went out and bought some test paper and I've definitely noticed that when I am having a better day I'll check the pH and it's less acidic. Up around 6.0. I'd like to get it up around 7.0 and see how I feel. I think this may show that there's a problem with amino acid metabolism. If they're not being utilized properly (i.e., converted to neurotransmitters) than they are excreted in the urine at too high a rate causing acidity. Still not sure about all this but I really feel like I may be on to something here.

[Guest guest]

Hi , I was just curious about what you said about wellbutrin. What do you

mean

when you said it knocked you out? Did it have any beneficial effect on mood,

sex, or

otherwise? I've been thinking about trying it but I'm still not sure if it's

worth the side

effects and the energy. Thanks for your story by the way, I've been dealing

with this

for almost a year now and am already feeling burned out and generally terrible.

I can

barely imagine this going on for several more years. With the help of this

group I

think we can all stop that from happening.

>

> Hi,

>

> Even though I feel overwhelmed at times I won't give up. I'm still trying to

> learn more about the biochemistry of it all. In particular, right now, I'm

> trying to learn more about phosphorylation and amino acid metabolism.

Whenever

> I try a particular med or supplement I always try to monitor how I feel and

> write down if anything unusual happens. One thing that I noticed is that

since

> I went down hill my urine has been very frothy. Almost like a head of beer

> sometimes. I went back and checked my lab work and indeed it's been very

> acidic. Right around a pH of 5.0. I went out and bought some test paper and

I've

> definitely noticed that when I am having a better day I'll check the pH and

> it's less acidic. Up around 6.0. I'd like to get it up around 7.0 and see

how

> I feel. I think this may show that there's a problem with amino acid

> metabolism. If they're not being utilized properly (i.e., converted to

> neurotransmitters) than they are excreted in the urine at too high a rate

causing

acidity.

> Still not sure about all this but I really feel like I may be on to something

> here.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, and welcome to the group.

Sorry to hear about your struggles. I have to say though that I

think you have been using the wrong medications for your recovery.

They all increase serotonin to one degree or another (even

wellbutrin does a little bit) and that is exactly the opposite of

what you want. I would find a good doctor and start focusing on

ways to upregulate your dopaminergic system. BTW, who was the doc

who did the QEEG? Does he have a lot of experience with this

problem?

Vornan

>

> Hi,

>

> I've been a member about a week and I thought I'd finally jump

in.

> Maybe I can learn something or perhaps my experiences might help

> someone. I'm basically completely shot. In my case it wasn't

just

> an SSRI (Paxil) but also a serotonergic tricyclic (Elavil) that

did

> me in. The frustration and anger that I've built up from seeing

> dozens of clueless doctors hasn't help me any either.

>

> About 7 years ago I was going through a very stressful period in

my

> life. I started getting strange physical sensations. I would lay

> down and my heart would race and I couldn't slow it down. I was

> getting fatigue and weakness in my legs and dry skin. At some

point

> I completely lost the ability to sleep. Basically, my nervous

system

> went into hyperdrive and I was burning out. The one thing that

was

> still working was my sex drive. I was as horny as ever and loving

> it.

>

> It was at this point that I made the single worst decision in my

> entire life. I decided to go to the doctor. Oh if I could only

do

> it over again. I would have eliminated the stressors. I would

have

> quit the job, sold the house and dumped the girl. I would have

> meditated and prayed. I would have taken 5htp or other natural

> supplements. But instead I went to the doctor and sealed my fate.

>

> If he had prescribed me 5 or 10mgs of Paxil it might have been

ok.

> But I started at 20mg and went up to 40mg per day. Initially it

> helped. It helped mute my over the top fight or flight response

and

> got me thinking " outside " of my head again. But of course after a

> while it started to kill my libido and make me anorgasmic. It

also

> didn't help with my chronic insomnia and in fact made it worse.

> After about a year of this I had had enough. After I stopped my

> libido did return but not to what it had been before. All the

other

> problems I was having also returned and even worse then before.

So

> we decided to try Elavil, which is supposed to be good for pain

and

> insomnia. It did work. At 25mg it knocked me out every night. I

> stayed with this for a couple of years but had to keep upping the

> dose until I was taking 100mg every night to get to sleep.

>

> It was at this point that I realized that I had been turned into a

> zombie. I didn't think about sex much anymore. My skin had dried

> out. I was losing my vitality. I decided to stop. I figured I'd

> taper down 25mg per week. Which is actually more slowly than is

> deemed necessary by the so-called experts. This was the second

worse

> decision of my entire life. Once I stopped my system went

completely

> haywire. I felt like my muscles were melting away. I had a weird

> tingling sensation in my chest and stomach. I became weak. I

> developed chronic testicular and pelvic pain. I began frantically

> running around to doctors who were of no help. Three different

> urologists prescribed me antibiotics for a nonexistant infection.

> What a nightmare.

>

> It's been a couple of years since that horrendous withdrawal.

I've

> spent that time reading and researching and trying to figure out

what

> happened to me. I have lost all motivation, desire and passion

for

> life. I feel old and frail. Unlike most of the people here my

> genitals have become too sensitive. Painful in fact. I still can

> get aroused but certainly not like before the meds. It's become a

> chore. Orgasms are weak and no more spontaneous erections. I

just

> feel like my brain is weak. I went to a fancy doctor in New York

> last year who did a QEEG and said it showed that I have extremely

low

> dopaminergic function. My father is 79 years old and is on

> medications for parkinsonism. So basically, these drugs did to me

in

> less than 4 years what it took life 70+ years to do to my father.

>

> I've tried a few different meds over the past year with varying

> results. These include:

>

> Zoloft - I know it sounds ridiculous but there was sound reasoning

> behind trying this. Was on it for 2 months. Different than

Paxil.

> Made me feel weird and knocked me out in the middle of the day.

As

> strange as it seems, when I stopped it I had the best 2 or 3 days

> that I've had in years. I'm still trying to figure out what

happened

> here.

>

> Wellbutrin - Helped with pain but knocked me out. Probably means

> there's a dopamine receptor issue.

>

> Neurontin - Helps with sleep and pain and makes me horny. There

has

> been speculation that neurontin effects dopamine metabolism but

it's

> mode of action remains elusive. Problem for me is that it wears

off

> quickly and have to keep upping the dose. Over time it feels like

> it's just burning me out more. I think this is the fatal flaw

with

> most meds that boost dopamine function.

>

> Lamictal - A complete disaster. I believed it further suppressed

my

> already hypofunctioning dopaminergic system. Felt rotten while on

it

> and horrible when I stopped.

>

> Cymbalta - First week it felt like Paxil. I have to say it helped

> with the genital pain/hypersensitivity. My bits and pieces

actually

> showed a glimmer of their former glory. This seemed to dissipate

> after a few weeks and all I got was a headache and more insomnia.

>

> 1/2 grain natural thyroid - Not sure if it helps but my thyroid

> numbers are borderline and I came up positive for thyroid

antibodies.

>

> I've decided to lay off of medications for a little while to give

my

> body a break. I'm taking a number of supplements. Some of them I

> purchased off of a Phd's website. He's into sexual health and is

> more knowledgeable than any MD I've ever seen. They're basically

> combinations of amino acids, cofactors, herbs and DHEA. It's only

> been a week or so, so it's too early to tell if they help. But it

is

> a very informative website nonetheless. In fact if I had access

to

> his knowledge before I went on meds I think it would have saved my

> life.

>

> Anyway, I know that chronic DL-phenylalanine has helped me a

little

> but it takes time. I had been taking it religiously for a few

months

> last spring. I was taking 1500mg in the AM and another 1500mg in

the

> afternoon. I started jogging again and felt like I was making

some

> progress. I may be so screwed up at this point that I need a med

or

> combination to get better. But I'm really becoming gun shy. Even

> the ones that help don't last and always seem to leave me worse

off

> than before. Sorry this post was so long...

>

> Thanks,

>

>

[Guest guest]

Baically because initially Paxil was helping me. Also, of the transmitters that modulate the stress response, namely serotonin, GABA and acetylcholine, serotonin is the easiest to boost naturally.

[Guest guest]

No I'm no scientist. I've had a lot of free time lately which I've pretty much spent entirely on trying to figure this all out. It's amazing how much a man can learn when he's trying to save his own life. Or at least his love life. The one thing I have definitely learned is that doctors are no smarter than the rest of us. But they are a lot more obnoxious than the rest of us.

[Guest guest]

>Interesting hypothesis. But how do you know you weren't low inother

>transmitters like GABA for example?

I don't. In my initial post I forgot to list a few medications that

I tried. One of them was Xanax. I tried Xanax before I went on

Paxil or Elavil. It put me to sleep at night. In fact it was more

like a coma. I found it made me too groggy. I also tried klonopin.

This was post Paxil/Elavil. This was prescribed by Dr. Braverman.

He also wanted me back on 10mg of Paxil. He basically wanted to take

me out of sympathetic mode and use chronic DLPA & tyrosine

supplementation to rebuild my dopaminergic function. This would have

been a much better approach when I first went on the meds but I had

no intention of going back on Paxil. As for the klonopin, it didn't

put me to sleep and seemed to be depressogenic.

>I suppose the conversion from cholesterol > DHEA > Androstenedione

>Testosterone has been slowed down. Have you had your LH and

FSHlevels >measured to test for secondary hypogonadism caused by

theSSRI? Also, >have you had your liver enzymes measured?

I'm do for some testing. Up until now the numbers have been in

the " normal " range. Which isn't to say optimal.

>I think SSRIs do screw up the liver, but the liver

recoverseventually >after coming off them . I think it's more likely

thelong-term >problems are caused by altered gene expression, mostly

in the brain.

Most medications screw up the liver. But you are absolutely right

about the gene expression. When someone doesn't go back to " normal "

or I should say back to his/her original homeostatic set point, than

I think it is most likely do to the fact that the medication changes

their gene expression and after stopping the med it hasn't changed

back.

>What about combining a low-dose benzodiazepine with a

>dopamineagonist? >That's what I'm trying now.

Definitely have considered this. May be my next choice if and when I

do decide to try meds again. For the next couple of months I'm going

to stick with supplements, aminos and easing myself back into a

regular exercise regimen.

[Guest guest]

OK, I am a molecular biologist, so I did have the base knowledge to

learn about SSRIs. I imagine it would be much harder starting from

scratch.

I agree that most doctors are jerks.

>

> No I'm no scientist. I've had a lot of free time lately which

I've pretty

> much spent entirely on trying to figure this all out. It's

amazing how much a

> man can learn when he's trying to save his own life. Or at least

his love

> life. The one thing I have definitely learned is that doctors are

no smarter than

> the rest of us. But they are a lot more obnoxious than the rest

of us.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Vornan, which benzo do you take now? I take ativan from time to

time, I find it to be much easier and cleaner than something like

klonipin was. What is your theory behind the benzos? I remember

reading how people can't seem to get relaxed enough anymore and that

could be interfering with sex, so that could make sense to me. Also,

what kind of dose do you run?

> What about combining a low-dose benzodiazepine with a dopamine

> agonist? That's what I'm trying now.

>

> Vornan

>

[Guest guest]

I did take a few biology and chemistry classes in college. I also went back a couple of years ago and took a couple of anatomy and physiology classes. I was at the point where I was ready to go to medical school and become a doctor in order to treat myself. But I'm so burned out now that I can barely function let alone go to medical school. I'll probably be hitting you with a few questions over the coming weeks. :-)

[Guest guest]

You need DHT for maintenance of the penis. With a low DHT level you

will have no healing power of the penis and your erections will become

weak as a result. To have an adequate level of DHT you need

testosterone. But if your T is low due to low acetylcholine and

dopamine then you will have low testosterone.

You need to learn about the Autonomic Nervous System to understand.

The ANS is subdivided into the Parasympathetic and the Sympathetic.

The neurotransmitter for the Parasympathetic Nervous System is

Acetylcholine. The neurotransmitter for the Sympathetic Nervous System

is Norepeniphrine (noradrenaline). Dopamine is for sex drive.

Acetylcholine for erection and genital sensation. Dopamine is a

precursor to Norepeniphrine. Choline is the precursor to

Acetylcholine. You need to supplement the neurotransmitters to

strengthen the Autonomic Nervous System and to boost testosterone. You

must boost both neurotransmiiters at the same time or you will become

dominate in one. Sympathetic Dominance can lead to Anxiety/ Panic

Attacks. Parasympathetic Dominance can lead to breathing difficulties/

tight in chest. You must be careful not to take too much of either

Acetylcholine or Dopamine or you can have nasty side effects. If you

plan to supplement with Choline or Dopamine, I recommend that you buy

a low dose and then cut the pills in half or even thirds and then work

your way up if necassary. I no longer recommend Acetyl L-carnitine as

it can boost Acetylcholine levels to high and cause Parasympathetic

Dominance. Just supplement with Choline and Dopamine. You should also

get an hour of sunlight a day to boost serotonin and dopamine.

>

>

> Can you make any sense out of half of what " Dr. " Lin theorizes? DHT

> is essential for penile enlargement? I'll have to keep that in mind.

>

> What's Etiocholane?

>

> Seriously, I think you may be right about low Acetycholine levels. I

> think many different neurotransmitters are deficient. The key is

> finding which ones and treat accordingly. Acetyl L-Carnitine is

> actually something Vornan has recommended in the past. I used it for

> a bit last year, and I think I'm going to start on another course

> shortly.

>

>

> Luther