Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 >Some people are actually allergic to >perfume. Yes, that would be me. I break out in hive and space out if I'm forced to be near someone with perfume on. It also smells like toxic waste to me. >And some people actually like it. And some people actually like being tied up and and whipped. That doesn't mean I should have to be subjected to it. I noticed that at the " Autreat " , there is no perfume allowed. >I like the diversity of food available in >normal society. How nice for you. Then stay in " normal " society. We're talking about a special place that would be comfortable for people who have weird sensory perceptions, as many autistics do. What's the point of having a special town for autistics if everything is that same as the real world? >Mine wouldn't. I rely on my hearing a lot >to tell me when danger is around or just to >orient myself in my surroundings. Such a >room would disconcert me and have no >place in my house. Well, you don't have to go in the room--you could use it as a closet or something. >A lot more of us are cat people actually. I like cats, too, although I am severely allergic to them. The thing about cats is that you usually can't get them to go for walks with you. Not for very far, anyway. >You envisage an adults-only community >here, or so it appears. No, they just have to be in their own places. Most small children are noisy, frenetic and irritating. Even the quieter ones can drive you up the wall with their constant questioning and egocentric, " Look, look what I'm doing " behavior. >Children are what makes the future of a >community. They should be treated with >respect not scorned. Children are an annoyance. I never wanted kids, and had the good sense not to have any---one of the few things I've done right in my life. I didn't subject some kid to me, so why should I be subjected to them? I am so sick of the bad behavior that kids are allowed to get away with, as the parents indulgently look on and say, " Oh, isn't it cute that little ny is running endlessly up and down the isle at Safeway while knocking things off the shelf? " I was at the food co-op one day, and this kid went around and opened all the spigots on the bulk oils and syrups. No one said anything to the mother. I just went to an art exhibit on Thursday at the museum, I was approached 6 different times by different museum staff members telling me that my incredibly well behaved, quiet, unobtrusive dog was not allowed in the museum (I have an assistance dog). Meanwhile, there was a little girl about 4 years old who was running around stomping and yelling and making it very hard for me to concentrate on the art. Her parents did nothing to stop her. The guards said nothing to the mother. Lori Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 fiestacranberry@... danced around singing: > >Some people are actually allergic to > >perfume. > >Yes, that would be me. I break out in hive and space out if I'm forced >to be near someone with perfume on. It also smells like toxic waste to >me. Very similar here. I'm allergic to it (along with smoke) and will have serious asthma complications if I can't get away from them. Artificial scents are informally banned in many college classrooms for this reason, thank zog, as otherwise I wouldn't be able to attend -- and I wish they were banned everywhere! > >I like the diversity of food available in > >normal society. > >How nice for you. Then stay in " normal " society. We're talking about a >special place that would be comfortable for people who have weird >sensory perceptions, as many autistics do. What's the point of having a >special town for autistics if everything is that same as the real world? Bingo... I think that it would be good if we were to have " lands " like at DisneyLand -- different places for different kinds of autistics. I'd be in the " heavily restricted " land where stuff commonly found in the " normal " world wouldn't be allowed. If I could handle NTdom enough to enjoy it rather than just find it painful, I would not bother being on these lists. > >A lot more of us are cat people actually. > >I like cats, too, although I am severely allergic to them. I also like them and I'm severely allergic to them. (I still have them, but that's because I'm a serious ailurophile -- I do feral rescue. Yay for antihistamines!) I wouldn't dream of forcing them on anyone or thinking badly of someone for not wanting any, of course. > >You envisage an adults-only community >here, or so it appears. > >No, they just have to be in their own places. Most small children are >noisy, frenetic and irritating. Even the quieter ones can drive you up >the wall with their constant questioning and egocentric, " Look, look >what I'm doing " behavior. I was just out at an early dinner, and shortly before I finished a bunch of families with kids of all ages started coming in. There must have been 30 kids in that restaurant, arrrggh! To my neurological system, most kids of *all* ages were noisy, frenetic, and irritating even when they're sitting relatively still and just talking. I ended up having to halt conversation with the person I was with, put on my noise-blocking headphones, listen to music, and sway gently to keep from going into an anxious/angry meltdown. >Children are an annoyance. I never wanted kids, and had the good sense >not to have any---one of the few things I've done right in my life. I >didn't subject some kid to me, so why should I be subjected to them? Ah, I knew I saw a kindred spirit (to quote a children's book when I found you on one of the smaller autism lists! That's exactly how I feel. (Sorry for not replying to your second email there -- I've been ridiculously swamped and tend to fall WAY behind in email when that happens. *sigh*) >I am so sick of the bad behavior that kids are allowed to get away with, >as the parents indulgently look on and say, " Oh, isn't it cute that >little ny is running endlessly up and down the isle at Safeway while >knocking things off the shelf? " Have you been to alt.support.childfree (USENET) before? We refer to that sort of parent as a Breeder Non Parent, or BNP. (Or as some of us think of them, Bovine Non Parent, because they always have this placid gaze rather like cows...) > I was at the food co-op one day, and >this kid went around and opened all the spigots on the bulk oils and >syrups. No one said anything to the mother. Ah, yes, they Lacked Spine! Check this link out, I think you'll love it. (This is one of my other regular hangouts, though I haven't posted there in almost a year.) http://makeashorterlink.com/?J16C42B94 I have it set as a " shorter link " URL because the full one takes up way too much room... > I just went to an art >exhibit on Thursday at the museum, I was approached 6 different times >by different museum staff members telling me that my incredibly well >behaved, quiet, unobtrusive dog was not allowed in the museum (I have an >assistance dog). Are you in North America? Since your dog is for assistance, legally I *think* they have to allow him in. I'll look it up... or if you like alt.support.childfree you could ask there, they would be happy to help you if you relay that story in particular. > Meanwhile, there was a little girl about 4 years old >who was running around stomping and yelling and making it very hard for >me to concentrate on the art. Her parents did nothing to stop her. The >guards said nothing to the mother. Yep, once again -- people need to get some more Spine and speak up. Just because WE aren't authority figures doesn't mean we can't stand up for the rights of others. I had a Tiny Spinal tonight at dinner -- when the kids near me became too noisy, I called the waiter over, asked (in a polite but loud enough voice for the parents to overhear) " I'm sorry, those unruly children are ruining my ability to merely hold a conversation, please give us another table. " He was happy to comply, and I gave him a larger tip than I usually leave as thanks. (He couldn't give us childfree seating as there *were* kids all over, but he did give us a quieter location.) I learned to do this by hanging out on the alt.support.childfree group cited above, which regularly includes lessons in " polite spine " for those of us new to public childfreedom. What I learned there has not only been a huge benefit for me not only in being near noisy kids, but in handling my other autistic & asthmatic needs in a friendly, effective manner as well! DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy " Everybody ought to think for themselves... You need to extract yourself from the turmoil of other people's interventions. " -- Wynne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 I don't think I am allergic to perfume. I just find it to be irritating, and therefore don't wear any. And I just use Ivory soap rather than deodorant soap as the smell of that is also irritating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 fiestacranberry@... wrote: >>Some people are actually allergic to >>perfume. > > > Yes, that would be me. I break out in hive and space out if I'm forced > to be near someone with perfume on. It also smells like toxic waste to > me. > > >>And some people actually like it. > > > And some people actually like being tied up and and whipped. That > doesn't mean I should have to be subjected to it. I noticed that at the > " Autreat " , there is no perfume allowed. Yes the same applies to people with dog allergy except that my dog allergy can easily kill me by stopping my breathing rather than being an annoying skin irritation like most of my allergies are. Why should every avoid things which might set off your allergies or upset you but it's perfectly ok to do things that can kill other people via allergies. >>I like the diversity of food available in >>normal society. > > > How nice for you. Then stay in " normal " society. We're talking about a > special place that would be comfortable for people who have weird > sensory perceptions, as many autistics do. What's the point of having a > special town for autistics if everything is that same as the real world? I am HFA and I have weird sensory perceptions, thank you very much, but they happen not to be the same as yours. I am sure there are plenty of autistics with sensory problems who don't like gluten free food and would enjoy eating at restaurants that serve normal food. >>Mine wouldn't. I rely on my hearing a lot >>to tell me when danger is around or just to >>orient myself in my surroundings. Such a >>room would disconcert me and have no >>place in my house. > > > Well, you don't have to go in the room--you could use it as a closet or > something. How about I could have the choice to have a house without such a room since I would not use it anyway. If I made an objectionable noise to people off the property (which I don't and I live alone in a house on a 683m² property with no soundproof room) then complaints could be issued or the situation reviewed. >>A lot more of us are cat people actually. > > > I like cats, too, although I am severely allergic to them. The thing > about cats is that you usually can't get them to go for walks with you. > Not for very far, anyway. > > >>You envisage an adults-only community >here, or so it appears. > > > No, they just have to be in their own places. Most small children are > noisy, frenetic and irritating. Even the quieter ones can drive you up > the wall with their constant questioning and egocentric, " Look, look > what I'm doing " behavior. I am surprised that an autistic would have anything against egocentricity. I thought that was our speciality. >>Children are what makes the future of a >>community. They should be treated with >>respect not scorned. > > > Children are an annoyance. I never wanted kids, and had the good sense > not to have any---one of the few things I've done right in my life. I > didn't subject some kid to me, so why should I be subjected to them? I > am so sick of the bad behavior that kids are allowed to get away with, > as the parents indulgently look on and say, " Oh, isn't it cute that > little ny is running endlessly up and down the isle at Safeway while > knocking things off the shelf? " I was at the food co-op one day, and > this kid went around and opened all the spigots on the bulk oils and > syrups. No one said anything to the mother. I just went to an art > exhibit on Thursday at the museum, I was approached 6 different times > by different museum staff members telling me that my incredibly well > behaved, quiet, unobtrusive dog was not allowed in the museum (I have an > assistance dog). Meanwhile, there was a little girl about 4 years old > who was running around stomping and yelling and making it very hard for > me to concentrate on the art. Her parents did nothing to stop her. The > guards said nothing to the mother. You are describing badly parented children. Not just children per se. I would prefer rules about children's behaviour in public places rather than set bans. CZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 Antryg Windrose danced around singing: >Yes the same applies to people with dog allergy except that my dog >allergy can easily kill me by stopping my breathing rather than being an >annoying skin irritation like most of my allergies are. That's how my perfume/cologne allergy is too. :^P Actually, if I have an allergic reaction to something at all, it's typically blinding migraine and asthma attacks. Right now I'm treating both as I'm allergic to grass yet had to mow the lawn today... >I am sure there are plenty of >autistics with sensory problems who don't like gluten free food and >would enjoy eating at restaurants that serve normal food. That is the category I fall into. I was on the gluten-free diet as a kid for my other disabilities, but it did no good, so I'm back to eating pretty much everything. As long as I am careful to only eat certain foods at certain times I am okay. (I do know that I have bad reactions concentration-wise if I eat certain foods, but it's not gluten-related.) >How about I could have the choice to have a house without such a room >since I would not use it anyway. If I made an objectionable noise to >people off the property (which I don't and I live alone in a house on a >683m² property with no soundproof room) then complaints could be issued >or the situation reviewed. I like that idea. The best way to handle things, I think, is to build the accommodations to suit the individual. So you could have a non-silent house, and I could have a totally soundproofed one. :^) >I am surprised that an autistic would have anything against >egocentricity. I thought that was our speciality. Not outside the stereotypes, as far as I have seen. I've noticed far more NTs online and in my life that are seriously egocentric than ACs. >You are describing badly parented children. Not just children per se. >I would prefer rules about children's behaviour in public places rather >than set bans. That's because, just like her sensitivities include things that yours don't, she and I are set off by the noise/movement style of kids, and evidently you are not. Doesn't mean we should have to live with them just because you can handle them, of course, so we'd live in that part of the community where people under 18 are banned and residents could sign an agreement that they would not reproduce. There, problem solved... Either way, consider yourself lucky -- ACs with the hypersensitivity to the movement/noise of even sedate children have an even harder time in society than we do as autistics already. DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 DeGraf wrote: > fiestacranberry@... danced around singing: > >>>Some people are actually allergic to >>>perfume. >> >>Yes, that would be me. I break out in hive and space out if I'm forced >>to be near someone with perfume on. It also smells like toxic waste to >>me. > > > Very similar here. I'm allergic to it (along with smoke) and will have > serious asthma complications if I can't get away from them. Artificial > scents are informally banned in many college classrooms for this reason, > thank zog, as otherwise I wouldn't be able to attend -- and I wish they > were banned everywhere! What about dogs for people with serious dog allergies? Or do you have a community for autistics with perfume allergies where dog dander covers the place and a separate community for autistics who can't be near dog dander? >>>I like the diversity of food available in >>>normal society. >> >>How nice for you. Then stay in " normal " society. We're talking about a >>special place that would be comfortable for people who have weird >>sensory perceptions, as many autistics do. What's the point of having a >>special town for autistics if everything is that same as the real world? > > > Bingo... I think that it would be good if we were to have " lands " like at > DisneyLand -- different places for different kinds of autistics. I'd be in > the " heavily restricted " land where stuff commonly found in the " normal " > world wouldn't be allowed. If I could handle NTdom enough to enjoy it > rather than just find it painful, I would not bother being on these lists. NTdom has nothing whatsoever to do with being able to eat gluten in food. Plenty of autistics can. I think in this discussion you people are forgetting that I am a diagnosed HFA (not self diagnosed) and I am reliant on homecare services and need a lot more external support to live independantly than most of you. I am far from NT. I would like the type of thing described within reason but that is a far more sensible idea of a community than banning a few peoples likes and dislikes or allergies or whatever and openly allowing things that affect other people badly. Of course my main objection to any such community would be (if it was real) that I am set in my ways and I like my house and cannot conceive of moving from it. I hate change. >>>A lot more of us are cat people actually. >> >>I like cats, too, although I am severely allergic to them. > > > I also like them and I'm severely allergic to them. (I still have them, > but that's because I'm a serious ailurophile -- I do feral rescue. Yay for > antihistamines!) I wouldn't dream of forcing them on anyone or thinking > badly of someone for not wanting any, of course. Same should go for dogs. When I say severe allergy I am talking respiratory arrest needing ventilation in ICU not something antihistamines could fix. You simply would not catch me in a place no matter how ideal it was in every other way if there were dogs all over the place. >>>You envisage an adults-only community >here, or so it appears. >> >>No, they just have to be in their own places. Most small children are >>noisy, frenetic and irritating. Even the quieter ones can drive you up >>the wall with their constant questioning and egocentric, " Look, look >>what I'm doing " behavior. > > > I was just out at an early dinner, and shortly before I finished a bunch of > families with kids of all ages started coming in. There must have been 30 > kids in that restaurant, arrrggh! To my neurological system, most kids of > *all* ages were noisy, frenetic, and irritating even when they're sitting > relatively still and just talking. I ended up having to halt conversation > with the person I was with, put on my noise-blocking headphones, listen to > music, and sway gently to keep from going into an anxious/angry meltdown. That would give me the sh*ts. Restaurants are one place where I really cannot stand kids. Actually there are many places where I find children odious. I just really wish children would be brought up well and taught respect for others as well as respect for themselves so that the world could be filled with open-minded accepting NICE adults not with biggots and personality disorders and attachment disorders and PTSD from child abuse and all the other things which screw a kid up for life. I konw a few children <10 years old who I would enjoy the company of at a dinner table. But the vast majority I would not at all. >> I just went to an art >>exhibit on Thursday at the museum, I was approached 6 different times >>by different museum staff members telling me that my incredibly well >>behaved, quiet, unobtrusive dog was not allowed in the museum (I have an >>assistance dog). > > > Are you in North America? Since your dog is for assistance, legally I > *think* they have to allow him in. I'll look it up... or if you like > alt.support.childfree you could ask there, they would be happy to help you > if you relay that story in particular. Here in Western Australia seeing eye dogs and similar are allowed in public places. Thankfully there are not too many people who have those dogs around so I can easily avoid them so as not to end up in hospital. I wish I could be around dogs because the odd thing is I actually like them. >> Meanwhile, there was a little girl about 4 years old >>who was running around stomping and yelling and making it very hard for >>me to concentrate on the art. Her parents did nothing to stop her. The >>guards said nothing to the mother. > > > Yep, once again -- people need to get some more Spine and speak up. Just > because WE aren't authority figures doesn't mean we can't stand up for the > rights of others. I had a Tiny Spinal tonight at dinner -- when the kids > near me became too noisy, I called the waiter over, asked (in a polite but > loud enough voice for the parents to overhear) " I'm sorry, those unruly > children are ruining my ability to merely hold a conversation, please give > us another table. " He was happy to comply, and I gave him a larger tip > than I usually leave as thanks. (He couldn't give us childfree seating as > there *were* kids all over, but he did give us a quieter location.) I often will tell a parent of a bratty child that they should control their child better in public or tell the child off if it comes near me and does something that I find hard to cope with, but that almost invariably results in a bad reaction from the parent. CZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 Antryg Windrose danced around singing: >What about dogs for people with serious dog allergies? Or do you have a >community for autistics with perfume allergies where dog dander covers >the place and a separate community for autistics who can't be near dog >dander? That might work. That would also be fair to autistics that don't like being near animals -- it could be an animalfree zone, similar to the childfree one. Also, I wasn't saying that I'm not allergic to dogs, just that I am allergic to scented things. >NTdom has nothing whatsoever to do with being able to eat gluten in >food. Plenty of autistics can. I didn't say that I can't. What I said is that there should be different places for different kinds of autistics. I don't do well in NTdom because of my senses & allergies; I felt a good compromise would be for different kinds of ACs to live in different areas. > I think in this discussion you people are >forgetting that I am a diagnosed HFA (not self diagnosed) and I am >reliant on homecare services and need a lot more external support to >live independantly than most of you. I am far from NT. I never said you were NT, and I know you're diagnosed as HFA -- you were the first person I met online that is. I do know that you are more comfortable around NTs than I am, I assume because of the differences in how autism has affected us. (I'm dx as AS officially, but I am being re-evaluated this month for HFA as I have serious delays that the AS people are by definition not supposed to have.) > I would like the >type of thing described within reason but that is a far more >sensible idea of a community than banning a few peoples likes and >dislikes or allergies or whatever and openly allowing things that affect >other people badly. Right, that is why I specified we should each have our own areas that are compatible with our sensitivities. > Of course my main objection to any such community >would be (if it was real) that I am set in my ways and I like my house >and cannot conceive of moving from it. I hate change. I hate change as well. I'm going to have to eventually move, but I keep trying to not think about it. >Same should go for dogs. When I say severe allergy I am talking >respiratory arrest needing ventilation in ICU not something >antihistamines could fix. You simply would not catch me in a place no >matter how ideal it was in every other way if there were dogs all over >the place. It does go for both, hence my idea of separate communities. >That would give me the sh*ts. Restaurants are one place where I really >cannot stand kids. Actually there are many places where I find children >odious. I was pretty ticked off to find them running around screaming in the campus library when students were trying to study the other day. > I just really wish children would be brought up well and taught >respect for others as well as respect for themselves so that the world >could be filled with open-minded accepting NICE adults not with biggots >and personality disorders and attachment disorders and PTSD from child >abuse and all the other things which screw a kid up for life. I konw a >few children <10 years old who I would enjoy the company of at a dinner >table. But the vast majority I would not at all. See, I can't enjoy being around any of them. Vocal pitch in a speaking voice, and speed of movement has nothing to do with being well-behaved. A sedate kid is still going to talk in a tone that will feel like fingernails on a blackboard to me; a silent kid will still be moving its limbs to do even basic things at a speed that makes my head swim. >Here in Western Australia seeing eye dogs and similar are allowed in >public places. Thankfully there are not too many people who have those >dogs around so I can easily avoid them so as not to end up in hospital. >I wish I could be around dogs because the odd thing is I actually like them. Yes, exactly... I do really like dogs (though I communicate better with cats and therefore like them more but I can't have any or be around them for very long at all without having serious asthma problems. >I often will tell a parent of a bratty child that they should control >their child better in public or tell the child off if it comes near me >and does something that I find hard to cope with, but that almost >invariably results in a bad reaction from the parent. I used to worry about the reactions from parents, but I'm losing patience as I age, as at this point I really don't care if they get upset if they've upset me. I treat people with respect regardless -- I don't go up and say " get your f*ing kid to shut up " any more than I tell smokers " put that damn cigarette out " -- but if all I do is explain that the kids are bothering me and move away, I don't *care* if they " react badly " to me, any more than they care that they're disturbing others. DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 DeGraf wrote: > Antryg Windrose danced around singing: > >>Yes the same applies to people with dog allergy except that my dog >>allergy can easily kill me by stopping my breathing rather than being an >>annoying skin irritation like most of my allergies are. > > > That's how my perfume/cologne allergy is too. :^P Actually, if I have an > allergic reaction to something at all, it's typically blinding migraine and > asthma attacks. Right now I'm treating both as I'm allergic to grass yet > had to mow the lawn today... Me too. When the lawns get done around the neighbourhood I start myself on prednisone and stay indoors with the windows shut for as long as possible. >>I am sure there are plenty of >>autistics with sensory problems who don't like gluten free food and >>would enjoy eating at restaurants that serve normal food. > > > That is the category I fall into. I was on the gluten-free diet as a kid > for my other disabilities, but it did no good, so I'm back to eating pretty > much everything. As long as I am careful to only eat certain foods at > certain times I am okay. (I do know that I have bad reactions > concentration-wise if I eat certain foods, but it's not gluten-related.) Same there. I was on that diet as a child and it did me no good whatsoever. The reason I was put on it was both for my allergies and for my hyperactivity but both were just the same on it. When I was a teenager I was on another diet that was extremely restrictive and while that helped my asthma and eczema by avoiding any artificial additives and many foods which I have mild allergies to... it got too hard to make a meal because it was so restrictive. >>How about I could have the choice to have a house without such a room >>since I would not use it anyway. If I made an objectionable noise to >>people off the property (which I don't and I live alone in a house on a >>683m² property with no soundproof room) then complaints could be issued >>or the situation reviewed. > > > I like that idea. The best way to handle things, I think, is to build the > accommodations to suit the individual. So you could have a non-silent > house, and I could have a totally soundproofed one. :^) Sounds reasonable to me. >>I am surprised that an autistic would have anything against >>egocentricity. I thought that was our speciality. > > > Not outside the stereotypes, as far as I have seen. I've noticed far more > NTs online and in my life that are seriously egocentric than ACs. I actually notice a lot of areas where NTs and autistics have common ground. I would guess that every human being (and every animal even) is inherently egocentric and that some of them pretend not to be or get trained to behave in ways that are not. When it comes down to it I would say even the most charitable selfless generous person is egocentric because they would not do what they do if they did not get some kind of satisfaction from it. >>You are describing badly parented children. Not just children per se. >>I would prefer rules about children's behaviour in public places rather >>than set bans. > > > That's because, just like her sensitivities include things that yours > don't, she and I are set off by the noise/movement style of kids, and > evidently you are not. No no no. I am. Very much so. I just really hate to put the blame solely on the children when I believe a lot of the time the parents are responsible for their children's attitudes and behaviour. Children in general make me feel panicky becuase contamination/germs stuff is a large part of my OCD. The noises they make I find intolerable and I will at best scowl or put my walkman on and at worst melt down and yell back at the child. I just find that I can usually avoid them and I do not think the blame lies with the child. > Doesn't mean we should have to live with them just > because you can handle them, of course, so we'd live in that part of the > community where people under 18 are banned and residents could sign an > agreement that they would not reproduce. I would probably choose that section too LOL because I have no wish to have children and I don't like prolonged exposure to them. I am afraid of babies because I think when I see one that it is a little germbag and that it will probably vomit on me or at least send me home with a raging chest infection. Then the noise is yes unbearable. I just have a problem with derogatory attitudes towards parents and children. After all, I can't go near dogs but I don't see dog owners as anything worth insulting or a lower form of human. > There, problem solved... Either > way, consider yourself lucky -- ACs with the hypersensitivity to the > movement/noise of even sedate children have an even harder time in society > than we do as autistics already. I wish I could consider myself lucky in that. But, I am affected badly by almost every child in existence. I have met less than 5 children who I can tolerate, but those few children are very well parented and understand about autism and mental health issues so they are considerate enough to behave in more acceptable ways around me. Of course, I don't and couldn't live with those children. I see them about once a week for a couple of hours. I am sure I have written a lot of times in the past to this and other lists about how children in public places often drive me up the wall. CZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 DeGraf wrote: > Antryg Windrose danced around singing: > >>What about dogs for people with serious dog allergies? Or do you have a >>community for autistics with perfume allergies where dog dander covers >>the place and a separate community for autistics who can't be near dog >>dander? > > > That might work. That would also be fair to autistics that don't like > being near animals -- it could be an animalfree zone, similar to the > childfree one. Also, I wasn't saying that I'm not allergic to dogs, just > that I am allergic to scented things. If I recall correctly it wasn't you who said that dogs should be allowed everywhere in an autistic only community to start with. I have a problem with many perfumes although not a serious allergy I simply dislike a lot of them. Prolonged exposure would give me migraines but not the anaphylactic allergy some people get from them. I have been known to wear perfume in very small amounts in the past but I mainly wore a drop on my wrist so I could walk around smelling it myself but there was not enough that anybody ever noticed it. I haven't done that in recent years. >>NTdom has nothing whatsoever to do with being able to eat gluten in >>food. Plenty of autistics can. > > > I didn't say that I can't. What I said is that there should be different > places for different kinds of autistics. I don't do well in NTdom because > of my senses & allergies; I felt a good compromise would be for different > kinds of ACs to live in different areas. Again it wasn't you who said that there should be no restaurants that don't serve gluten free products. I actually agree with a lot of what you have said in this thread. >> I think in this discussion you people are >>forgetting that I am a diagnosed HFA (not self diagnosed) and I am >>reliant on homecare services and need a lot more external support to >>live independantly than most of you. I am far from NT. > > > I never said you were NT, and I know you're diagnosed as HFA -- you were > the first person I met online that is. I do know that you are more > comfortable around NTs than I am, I assume because of the differences in > how autism has affected us. (I'm dx as AS officially, but I am being > re-evaluated this month for HFA as I have serious delays that the AS people > are by definition not supposed to have.) I think it is not so much that I am more comfortable around them as I have had to learn to be and that my level of independance is low enough that I really do rely on them. I have to have NTs in my house because my carers are NT and so is the respite carer who takes me shopping. When I describe things like enjoying going out amongst NTs to watch them I am not talking about doing this on a daily basis. Things like university which cause me to have exposure to their way of living on a daily basis end up prohibitively difficult for me to participate in. Once again, I don't recall you saying I wasn't autistic. I was responding to what you said about if I can enjoy NTdom or whatever. Well, I can't and I don't. Occasionally I will have a nice time for a few hours or less watching them like a movie or interacting with them in a really fake way almost as a social experiment (to see how they react and test my acting ability) but on the whole I find normal society quite intolerable. I have only started to approach sanity since living by myself in my own house where apart from NT carers and necessary appointments I don't have to mingle with people unless I want to. >> I would like the >>type of thing described within reason but that is a far more >>sensible idea of a community than banning a few peoples likes and >>dislikes or allergies or whatever and openly allowing things that affect >>other people badly. > > > Right, that is why I specified we should each have our own areas that are > compatible with our sensitivities. Sounds good. I can foresee a problem with how far that should be taken and where to draw the boundaries (not geographical ones) though. >> Of course my main objection to any such community >>would be (if it was real) that I am set in my ways and I like my house >>and cannot conceive of moving from it. I hate change. > > > I hate change as well. I'm going to have to eventually move, but I keep > trying to not think about it. Are you renting? Having my own place where I don't have to have rent inspections or worry about the termination of my lease has greatly contributed to my sanity. >>Same should go for dogs. When I say severe allergy I am talking >>respiratory arrest needing ventilation in ICU not something >>antihistamines could fix. You simply would not catch me in a place no >>matter how ideal it was in every other way if there were dogs all over >>the place. > > > It does go for both, hence my idea of separate communities. > > >>That would give me the sh*ts. Restaurants are one place where I really >>cannot stand kids. Actually there are many places where I find children >>odious. > > > I was pretty ticked off to find them running around screaming in the campus > library when students were trying to study the other day. Aren't children or anyone making noise for that matter banned in libraries? Adults get thrown out of my campus library for making a noise. My biggest problem with my university campus is that it is built around a central courtyard and in that courtyard are a lot of people speaking different languages, smoking, eating stinky food, fundraising bbqs and the worst of all they have live DJs and bands and very loud music. Last year I encountered this (and this place is 1.5 hours by public transport away from my home so I couldn't easily just choose to leave and be safe because to get home I would have to be on crowded buses and trains) and I ended up running crying with my hands over my ears into the health and counselling entrance and my psychologist was called out. He took me into the consulting room (probably the quietest place in the building) and I rocked and stimmed and cried my eyes out until I was calm enough to sit normally. The psychologist then escorted me through the crowd and noise to my next lecture which was far enough away from the noise that it was bearable. He steered me with my shoulders and I just walked forward with my eyes mostly shut and my hands over my ears. The problem with finding places on my campus away from all this is that there are very few which are safe. There have been numerous rapes on campus (it's a very big open bushland type campus) and people are advised to stick together and not go into remote areas. >> I just really wish children would be brought up well and taught >>respect for others as well as respect for themselves so that the world >>could be filled with open-minded accepting NICE adults not with biggots >>and personality disorders and attachment disorders and PTSD from child >>abuse and all the other things which screw a kid up for life. I konw a >>few children <10 years old who I would enjoy the company of at a dinner >>table. But the vast majority I would not at all. > > > See, I can't enjoy being around any of them. Vocal pitch in a speaking > voice, and speed of movement has nothing to do with being well-behaved. A > sedate kid is still going to talk in a tone that will feel like fingernails > on a blackboard to me; a silent kid will still be moving its limbs to do > even basic things at a speed that makes my head swim. Again with these few kids that isn't the case. They are highly intelligent and softly spoken kids who can cope with sitting still when they are around me. Most kids I find intensely annoying and the " why " this " why " that that they do at a certain age also is annoying. I'm not sure why this particular family of kids is tolerable to me but they are just the total opposite of ADHD in that they are very calm and adult-like in the way they speak and move. >>Here in Western Australia seeing eye dogs and similar are allowed in >>public places. Thankfully there are not too many people who have those >>dogs around so I can easily avoid them so as not to end up in hospital. >>I wish I could be around dogs because the odd thing is I actually like them. > > > Yes, exactly... I do really like dogs (though I communicate better with > cats and therefore like them more but I can't have any or be around them > for very long at all without having serious asthma problems. I like cats too although my like of them has been greatly soured by the experience of having a roommate subject me to them for a long time causing me to walk around on peak flows of 150 and less for about a year and nearly die 14 times. That cured me of any wish to try to learn to be around cats and fight the allergy which I previously used to do. >>I often will tell a parent of a bratty child that they should control >>their child better in public or tell the child off if it comes near me >>and does something that I find hard to cope with, but that almost >>invariably results in a bad reaction from the parent. > > > I used to worry about the reactions from parents, but I'm losing patience > as I age, as at this point I really don't care if they get upset if they've > upset me. I treat people with respect regardless -- I don't go up and say > " get your f*ing kid to shut up " any more than I tell smokers " put that damn > cigarette out " -- but if all I do is explain that the kids are bothering me > and move away, I don't *care* if they " react badly " to me, any more than > they care that they're disturbing others. I do tell smokers to put that damn cigarette out regularly. If I don't then I will walk past them and very oviously wave my hand in front of my nose and cough in their direction. Coughing isn't optional but I always make it obvious that the smokers are causing it. Sometimes I also will say " f***ing smokers " to the person I am walking with (if I'm not alone) in a voice loud enough for them to hear. My only fear of bad reactions from parents when I make some not unjust comment about their child's behaviour is a few incidents over the years where I have nearly been punched for it. So the fear of a bad reaction isn't really that I care what they think of me, but just that I care for my personal safety. I have noticed that the suburb where the incident occurs has a large bearing on the type of reactions I get. Probably the most common reaction kids in public places get from me is " SHUT UP!!! " or a very nasty glare if they come too close to me. That is if I can't avoid them. I don't see this as the parents or child's problem as much as it is my problem with them. Just like dogs and owners are not the ones with the problem but I am. CZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 Antryg Windrose danced around singing: >Me too. When the lawns get done around the neighbourhood I start myself >on prednisone and stay indoors with the windows shut for as long as >possible. Yep, I'm starting prednisone, and I am already on antibiotics for an allergy-started sinus infection that has moved to my wisdom teeth and is now trying to get into my chest. This is a bit of a problem as I am supposed to go be in a big noisy ceremony tomorrow afternoon, then take final exams Monday/Tuesday. :^( >Same there. I was on that diet as a child and it did me no good >whatsoever. The reason I was put on it was both for my allergies and for >my hyperactivity but both were just the same on it. When I was a >teenager I was on another diet that was extremely restrictive and while >that helped my asthma and eczema by avoiding any artificial additives >and many foods which I have mild allergies to... it got too hard to make >a meal because it was so restrictive. Yes, mine was for asthma, eczema, severe bowel dysfunction, and renal failure. That meant no meats, dairy products, or GFCF foods. Which meant I was basically restricted for 10 years to an " astronaut " drink called Vivonex, aside from treats of solids once in a while. (It was a huge deal when I got to have something as basic as a glass of milk or a hamburger.) The diets did save my kidneys, so I am grateful for that, but I ended up choosing to have the bowel surgery last year rather than live the rest of my life unable to eat the foods I love. >I actually notice a lot of areas where NTs and autistics have common >ground. Wouldn't that also depend on what the kind of autistic and NT we're talking about? I think that they have subtypes, as we do, and that most of their subtypes aren't like my subtype of autistic at all. > I would guess that every human being (and every animal even) is >inherently egocentric and that some of them pretend not to be or get >trained to behave in ways that are not. When it comes down to it I would >say even the most charitable selfless generous person is egocentric >because they would not do what they do if they did not get some kind of >satisfaction from it. Yes, I agree. I have volunteering as a perseveration -- I'm *really* into helping people -- but I freely admit that if I had no emotional " lift " from doing it, doubtless I wouldn't be doing it! I don't think that anyone does things without having *any* sense of reward at all... >No no no. I am. Very much so. I just really hate to put the blame solely >on the children when I believe a lot of the time the parents are >responsible for their children's attitudes and behaviour. Okay... I'm sorry for leaping to conclusions. After the fights for the last week, I started freaking out (kind of an online PTSD I guess) and thinking that it was another case of " is a bad hateful person because she has sensory reactions to children " brewing... I agree that 99% of the time the problem is that the parents are not getting their kids to behave with respect to others. There is that annoying 1% where it's just that they naturally move too fast & talk too high-pitched. > Children in >general make me feel panicky becuase contamination/germs stuff is a >large part of my OCD. The noises they make I find intolerable and I will >at best scowl or put my walkman on and at worst melt down and yell back >at the child. I just find that I can usually avoid them and I do not >think the blame lies with the child. Yes... I did the music trick tonight, as I said. I don't *blame* kids for being that way, any more than I blame cats for having dander I'm allergic to. I just go totally nuts trying to avoid them -- trouble is, I live in a suburb, so that's almost physically impossible if I want to go outside the house before 2am. :^P >I would probably choose that section too LOL because I have no wish to >have children and I don't like prolonged exposure to them. How long can you last around them? *grin* I used to have a tolerance limit of perhaps 15 minutes around quiet kids, but my stress levels have gone up as I aged, making me unable to last longer than 2-3 minutes before I start having panic attacks. > I am afraid >of babies because I think when I see one that it is a little germbag and >that it will probably vomit on me or at least send me home with a raging >chest infection. Yes -- that and I'm also afraid of them because I can't tell when they're going to start screaming. Just seeing one makes me tense up, because their crying or cooing noises are totally unpredictable and freak me out. That I'll doubtless get sick with Kinderplague (i.e. illnesses only kids are supposed to get but I always pick up because my immune system is stupid) only adds to the stress. > Then the noise is yes unbearable. I just have a problem >with derogatory attitudes towards parents and children. After all, I >can't go near dogs but I don't see dog owners as anything worth >insulting or a lower form of human. I don't think that kids or parents are lower life forms... I just don't like being around the kids, and for some reason a lot of people think that means I must hate all kids/parents or something. Which makes zero sense to me... I don't like being around lots of things, but the only things I *hate* are human beings that willingly hurt others. >I wish I could consider myself lucky in that. But, I am affected badly >by almost every child in existence. I have met less than 5 children who >I can tolerate, but those few children are very well parented and >understand about autism and mental health issues so they are considerate >enough to behave in more acceptable ways around me. Of course, I don't >and couldn't live with those children. I see them about once a week for >a couple of hours. Yeah -- I was just discussing this with a " GTLee " on AS-Proud the other day. He/she (I am not sure which!) said that young kids in particular would probably accommodate me if I asked. I agreed completely, because I think that most adults and older kids are *far* less willing to try to help someone be comfortable -- but I also had to point out that it wouldn't be any more fair of me to expect that kind of physically demanding super-sensitive behavior of them than it would be for them to expect me to tolerate more " natural " behavior from them. There's also that my social skills and CAPD are in many ways so severe that I have a lot of trouble being around most people in general. I can be physically exhausted just after a quiet two hours interacting with my best friend... So having to handle the natural vocal pitch or quick movement of kids on top of that would reduce my energy levels to basically nil within a -very- short time. I'd rather use the energy to do other things. :^) >I am sure I have written a lot of times in the past to this and other >lists about how children in public places often drive me up the wall. Yes, you have... I just started freaking out because of my bad experience earlier this week, especially when I started seeing the " child-hater " comments earlier today. I am under an insane amount of stress right now, enough that even I have been breaking down emotionally, which is *not* like me at all, so my apologies for reacting with the unkind assumption that you were not dealing with similar preferences/sensory issues. I need a vacation so badly right now... DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy We all know it takes a bigger man to say " I'm sorry " than it does to say " f*ck you. " (anon, usenet) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 wrote: > > > >>NTdom has nothing whatsoever to do with being able to eat gluten in >>food. Plenty of autistics can. I think in this discussion you people are >>forgetting that I am a diagnosed HFA (not self diagnosed) and I am >>reliant on homecare services and need a lot more external support to >>live independantly than most of you. > > > Out of curiosity, how do you know this about most of us? > > I can't tell what degree of support people on this list get (I know > some, but not all, of their diagnostic status), but I may have missed > something somehow. > > , who can't figure out what the support levels and official > diagnostic status of people on the list has to do with the discussion I have seen several references to my apprently greater ability to tolerate children and normal society than other members. I was trying to say that this is not the case but that my attitude to the object of my irritation or intolerance seems to differ. I was not referring to all list members but to the participants in this discussion and more specifically the ones saying to me that I can cope with society and children. Please excuse me if I have badly paraphrased here. I know for sure that some members of this list (and participants in this discussion) are capable of studying higher education and capable of having relationships. These are two things which the degree my autism affects me really prevents me from doing. I also am prevented from tolerating NT society for any length or time and I would be a completely unfit parent were I to be landed with a child. I can't cope with other peoples let alone my own. I have yet to see anyone on this list mention having carers come to their house or other types of supported living. Correct me if I am wrong. Perhaps those members are just quiet (which would mean I was not referring to them anyway). That is all I was trying to say. CZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 > NTdom has nothing whatsoever to do with being able to eat gluten in > food. Plenty of autistics can. I think in this discussion you people are > forgetting that I am a diagnosed HFA (not self diagnosed) and I am > reliant on homecare services and need a lot more external support to > live independantly than most of you. Out of curiosity, how do you know this about most of us? I can't tell what degree of support people on this list get (I know some, but not all, of their diagnostic status), but I may have missed something somehow. , who can't figure out what the support levels and official diagnostic status of people on the list has to do with the discussion -- " I am stuck out of step, and out of place, wherever I go. Perhaps, then, it is time I do my own dance. " - Brine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 Antryg Windrose wrote: > I actually notice a lot of areas where NTs and autistics have common > ground. As Dr. noted during my evaluation at Pitt University, the things that autistic people think and do are not different than the things NTs do. It is in the amount that we do them that we differ from them. NTs stim, for example... she was stimming by jiggling one foot under the table as she told me that. I immediately pointed that out, and she agreed. > No no no. I am. Very much so. I just really hate to put the blame solely > on the children when I believe a lot of the time the parents are > responsible for their children's attitudes and behaviour. You mentioned this in the post in response to my post about kids, and I suppose it is correct... but it is not the well-behaved kids that give me fits. It only takes one or two in a large grocery store to make it a miserable experience. Parenting seems to have gone out of style long ago, at least to some people. Maybe I am off in this perception-- maybe 90% of kids behave well and do not attract my attention. I don't think that is the case, though. It seems like a lot more of them violate my space and my senses than one in ten. > Children in > general make me feel panicky becuase contamination/germs stuff is a > large part of my OCD. The noises they make I find intolerable and I will > at best scowl or put my walkman on and at worst melt down and yell back > at the child. I just find that I can usually avoid them and I do not > think the blame lies with the child. No, it doesn't; they are what they are, and they did not select their parents either. However, that does not mean I like to be around them, as it seems you do not either. Children often annoy me and generate strong anger responses, but I would never think of harming one, or even intervening in their behavior unless they were putting property or a person (themselves or others) at risk. I have at times scolded unknown children for doing such things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 DeGraf wrote: > Antryg Windrose danced around singing: > >>Me too. When the lawns get done around the neighbourhood I start myself >>on prednisone and stay indoors with the windows shut for as long as >>possible. > > > Yep, I'm starting prednisone, and I am already on antibiotics for an > allergy-started sinus infection that has moved to my wisdom teeth and is > now trying to get into my chest. This is a bit of a problem as I am > supposed to go be in a big noisy ceremony tomorrow afternoon, then take > final exams Monday/Tuesday. :^( I've just finished my 3rd course of antibiotics and about to start a 4th for a chest infection. I've been walking around on a peak flow of less than 150 for quite a few days now and my skin has that nasty greish bluish caste to it. Experiences like this do not to anything to lessen my fear of germs. >>I actually notice a lot of areas where NTs and autistics have common >>ground. > > > Wouldn't that also depend on what the kind of autistic and NT we're talking > about? I think that they have subtypes, as we do, and that most of their > subtypes aren't like my subtype of autistic at all. I think the central point of this issue is that everybody is unique and within any subgroup or neurology or colour whatever distinction can be made there will be countless individual differences and members of different groups will have similarities. >>No no no. I am. Very much so. I just really hate to put the blame solely >>on the children when I believe a lot of the time the parents are >>responsible for their children's attitudes and behaviour. > > > Okay... I'm sorry for leaping to conclusions. After the fights for the > last week, I started freaking out (kind of an online PTSD I guess) and > thinking that it was another case of " is a bad hateful person > because she has sensory reactions to children " brewing... I agree that 99% > of the time the problem is that the parents are not getting their kids to > behave with respect to others. There is that annoying 1% where it's just > that they naturally move too fast & talk too high-pitched. I think it is the way you sometimes express your aversion to children that gets certain peoples backs up. It comes across as very disdainful and derogatory towards mothers and towards children, not just as if you can't stand them yourself so you rather avoid them. I have an aversion to children too for not so dissimilar reasons and I have no wish to ever give birth to them but I don't see any reason to talk down to parents or be derogatory about their choices in life any more than I do to people who choose to own dogs and cats. >> Children in >>general make me feel panicky becuase contamination/germs stuff is a >>large part of my OCD. The noises they make I find intolerable and I will >>at best scowl or put my walkman on and at worst melt down and yell back >>at the child. I just find that I can usually avoid them and I do not >>think the blame lies with the child. > > > Yes... I did the music trick tonight, as I said. I don't *blame* kids for > being that way, any more than I blame cats for having dander I'm allergic > to. I just go totally nuts trying to avoid them -- trouble is, I live in a > suburb, so that's almost physically impossible if I want to go outside the > house before 2am. :^P Well, it does come across as if you blame kids or parents. Maybe you don't mean it that way but you often come across as pretty insulting towards parents and kids. That is probably why some parents resent what you say and come down on you like a ton of bricks. I mean, if someone talked down to me and used nasty terminology to describe me and my keeping of birds I would get offended and respond like a cut snake too. >>I would probably choose that section too LOL because I have no wish to >>have children and I don't like prolonged exposure to them. > > > How long can you last around them? *grin* I used to have a tolerance > limit of perhaps 15 minutes around quiet kids, but my stress levels have > gone up as I aged, making me unable to last longer than 2-3 minutes before > I start having panic attacks. Without Seroquel, I can't, period. With Seroquel and mental preparation, about the length of a church service and cup of tea afterwards. Even then, I can only handle a couple of the kids and I mostly will avoid them and stand by myself watching people or engage in conversation with adults. I could not deal with that on a daily basis. Crowded restaurants and shopping centres I find very hard to deal with whether there are children or not because of the array of sounds that totally disrupts my brain. I am virtually unable to carry on a conversation in a restaurant because of all the white noise and if they are playing music through speakers that makes it even worse. I do like going to restaurants but only for the food. > > >> I am afraid >>of babies because I think when I see one that it is a little germbag and >>that it will probably vomit on me or at least send me home with a raging >>chest infection. > > > Yes -- that and I'm also afraid of them because I can't tell when they're > going to start screaming. Just seeing one makes me tense up, because their > crying or cooing noises are totally unpredictable and freak me out. That > I'll doubtless get sick with Kinderplague (i.e. illnesses only kids are > supposed to get but I always pick up because my immune system is stupid) > only adds to the stress. Again, Kinderplague is a rather contentious way of putting it and it whether inadvertently or not puts the blame on the children for being filthy and infectious, rather on your and my immune systems where it belongs. This is why you get the reactions you do. I used the term germbag here but I would not use that as a normal everyday way of describing a child. It isn't the child's fault that I fall ill with everything I get exposed to. >> Then the noise is yes unbearable. I just have a problem >>with derogatory attitudes towards parents and children. After all, I >>can't go near dogs but I don't see dog owners as anything worth >>insulting or a lower form of human. > > > I don't think that kids or parents are lower life forms... I just don't > like being around the kids, and for some reason a lot of people think that > means I must hate all kids/parents or something. Which makes zero sense to > me... I don't like being around lots of things, but the only things I > *hate* are human beings that willingly hurt others. Once again, it does come across like you do. I don't have a child or feel particularly defensive of motherhood but even I get the old arched back and bristles (cat analogy) type reaction to some of what you write. >>I wish I could consider myself lucky in that. But, I am affected badly >>by almost every child in existence. I have met less than 5 children who >>I can tolerate, but those few children are very well parented and >>understand about autism and mental health issues so they are considerate >>enough to behave in more acceptable ways around me. Of course, I don't >>and couldn't live with those children. I see them about once a week for >>a couple of hours. > > > Yeah -- I was just discussing this with a " GTLee " on AS-Proud the other > day. He/she (I am not sure which!) said that young kids in particular > would probably accommodate me if I asked. I agreed completely, because I > think that most adults and older kids are *far* less willing to try to help > someone be comfortable -- but I also had to point out that it wouldn't be > any more fair of me to expect that kind of physically demanding > super-sensitive behavior of them than it would be for them to expect me to > tolerate more " natural " behavior from them. I don't know about that. I think teaching children tolerance and the value of putting other peoples needs before their own for some of the time (of course not most or all of it) is probably a good way to instill in them values that would make adult life more peaceful. > There's also that my social skills and CAPD are in many ways so severe that > I have a lot of trouble being around most people in general. I can be > physically exhausted just after a quiet two hours interacting with my best > friend... So having to handle the natural vocal pitch or quick movement of > kids on top of that would reduce my energy levels to basically nil within a > -very- short time. I'd rather use the energy to do other things. :^ Same there. I just mostly avoid kids. But then I also mostly avoid mixing with people altogether. Still, it is me that has the problem not them and I am all for other people having children and raising them well. I have a lot of respect for good parents. I know that I would be incapable of doing what they do. >>I am sure I have written a lot of times in the past to this and other >>lists about how children in public places often drive me up the wall. > > > Yes, you have... I just started freaking out because of my bad experience > earlier this week, especially when I started seeing the " child-hater " > comments earlier today. I am under an insane amount of stress right now, > enough that even I have been breaking down emotionally, which is *not* like > me at all, so my apologies for reacting with the unkind assumption that you > were not dealing with similar preferences/sensory issues. I need a > vacation so badly right now... I hope in the above paragraphs I was able to shed some light on why you get so many child hater comments. CZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 Klein wrote: > Antryg Windrose wrote: > > > >>I actually notice a lot of areas where NTs and autistics have common >>ground. > > > > As Dr. noted during my evaluation at Pitt University, the things that > autistic people think and do are not different than the things NTs do. It is in > the amount that we do them that we differ from them. NTs stim, for example... > she was stimming by jiggling one foot under the table as she told me that. I > immediately pointed that out, and she agreed. > > >>No no no. I am. Very much so. I just really hate to put the blame solely >>on the children when I believe a lot of the time the parents are >>responsible for their children's attitudes and behaviour. > > > > You mentioned this in the post in response to my post about kids, and I suppose > it is correct... but it is not the well-behaved kids that give me fits. It only > takes one or two in a large grocery store to make it a miserable experience. > Parenting seems to have gone out of style long ago, at least to some people. > Maybe I am off in this perception-- maybe 90% of kids behave well and do not > attract my attention. I don't think that is the case, though. It seems like a > lot more of them violate my space and my senses than one in ten. No. Most kids are brought up badly these days and most wouldn't know proper manners if it hit them in the face. I think you are right about parenting these days. I also think this don't discipline children for their mistakes thing has gone way way too far. I don't believe in physically abusing children but I do believe pain has its place in discipline. If kids have nothing to fear in behaving badly then why would they bother to try to behave well when it doesn't suit them. Kids that I find pleasant to be around are few and far between. I have only met two children in my lifetime so far that I could tolerate for relatively extended periods of time without much discomfort (as in a good few hours or maybe even a day but if I was to spend a normal day with these two kids the rest of the environment they exist in would get to me rather than the kids themselves). >>Children in >>general make me feel panicky becuase contamination/germs stuff is a >>large part of my OCD. The noises they make I find intolerable and I will >>at best scowl or put my walkman on and at worst melt down and yell back >>at the child. I just find that I can usually avoid them and I do not >>think the blame lies with the child. > > > > No, it doesn't; they are what they are, and they did not select their parents > either. However, that does not mean I like to be around them, as it seems you > do not either. Children often annoy me and generate strong anger responses, but > I would never think of harming one, or even intervening in their behavior unless > they were putting property or a person (themselves or others) at risk. I have > at times scolded unknown children for doing such things. So have I. As I just wrote in a response to , I don't think dislike of children is anything bad at all. I have it myself. I merely think that there are insulting towards other humans (who happen to be parents) ways of expressing it and there are non-insulting ways of expressing it that are based around personal dislike rather than rude words for parents or kids. CZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 > Same here with higher education (I have studied it in the past, am > unable to now, to be more specific), but on the other hand there are > people designated as " very severely autistic " who have completed higher > education that I would not be able to complete even with the degree of > help they get. > > I suspect that much of the time we (in general, autistics) are better > and worse at several *specific* tasks, rather than one indicating > across-the-board weakness in other areas. Yes. My inability to complete education stems from inability to cope with the campus environment plus inability to concentrate enough to do totally self directed study externally. Maybe if I was on Ritalin I would be able to pass my degree with flying colours as an external student. >> I also am prevented from >>tolerating NT society for any length or time and I would be a completely >>unfit parent were I to be landed with a child. I can't cope with other >>peoples let alone my own. I have yet to see anyone on this list mention >>having carers come to their house or other types of supported living. >>Correct me if I am wrong. Perhaps those members are just quiet (which >>would mean I was not referring to them anyway). > > > I'm in a supported living program (in my own home). I've mentioned it > on other lists when the topic comes up, but apparently not here. > > I also was a participant in this discussion, but then went away for a > day, so I don't know if I was a noticeable participant or not. I haven't noticed enough about you to remember your name as part of the discussion. The first thing that I did notice about you to be honest was that you seemed to have a more balanced or hmm whats the word.. I would say sensible but that would be insulting to others... more likely to work idea of this autistic community hypothetical. >>That is all I was trying to say. > > > Okay. A lot of it makes more sense now. I definitely understand the > need to say " Hey! Just because I have View #1 doesn't mean I don't have > Impairment #2! " at any rate. Exactly. And everybody makes assumptions at times especially in heated discussions where another person might take a stance different from their own. CZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2003 Report Share Posted May 17, 2003 > I have seen several references to my apprently greater ability to > tolerate children and normal society than other members. I was trying to > say that this is not the case but that my attitude to the object of my > irritation or intolerance seems to differ. Ah. That makes sense, then (I was missing the context). I often find that attitudes can differ even with similar neurological makeup, as well. (This is, in fact, possibly my #1 pet peeve about Donna 's books, is she rather vocally but with a good degree of (whether intentional or unintentional) verbal cunningness makes it sound as if " If you have this impairment then you would feel this way about it, " when I don't find that to be the case.) > I was not referring to all > list members but to the participants in this discussion and more > specifically the ones saying to me that I can cope with society and > children. Please excuse me if I have badly paraphrased here. Again, missed the context. Sorry. > I know for sure that some members of this list (and participants in this > discussion) are capable of studying higher education and capable of > having relationships. These are two things which the degree my autism > affects me really prevents me from doing. Same here with higher education (I have studied it in the past, am unable to now, to be more specific), but on the other hand there are people designated as " very severely autistic " who have completed higher education that I would not be able to complete even with the degree of help they get. I suspect that much of the time we (in general, autistics) are better and worse at several *specific* tasks, rather than one indicating across-the-board weakness in other areas. > I also am prevented from > tolerating NT society for any length or time and I would be a completely > unfit parent were I to be landed with a child. I can't cope with other > peoples let alone my own. I have yet to see anyone on this list mention > having carers come to their house or other types of supported living. > Correct me if I am wrong. Perhaps those members are just quiet (which > would mean I was not referring to them anyway). I'm in a supported living program (in my own home). I've mentioned it on other lists when the topic comes up, but apparently not here. I also was a participant in this discussion, but then went away for a day, so I don't know if I was a noticeable participant or not. > That is all I was trying to say. Okay. A lot of it makes more sense now. I definitely understand the need to say " Hey! Just because I have View #1 doesn't mean I don't have Impairment #2! " at any rate. -- " I can tell when my lover has been around the cat too long when she begins scratching me behind the ears. " -Gail Sausser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Antryg Windrose danced around singing: >If I recall correctly it wasn't you who said that dogs should be allowed >everywhere in an autistic only community to start with. Oh! No, no, that's not what I meant... If you go back and look, you'll see that I was talking about service dogs being allowed in public NT places where kids and perfumes are. I have too many allergies to be hypocritical enough to suggest that dogs be allowed everywhere -- if nothing else, not only are many people allergic to them, but I know some people are *terrified* of dogs, so having them everywhere would seem very cruel! > I have a problem >with many perfumes although not a serious allergy I simply dislike a lot >of them. Prolonged exposure would give me migraines but not the >anaphylactic allergy some people get from them. I have been known to >wear perfume in very small amounts in the past but I mainly wore a drop >on my wrist so I could walk around smelling it myself but there was not >enough that anybody ever noticed it. I haven't done that in recent years. I don't have allergy issues as long as it's a small enough amount that I don't notice. When Parrish sprayed a piece of paper six times last year and sent it to me, though, it made me severely ill -- I immediately became extremely sick to my stomach, my asthma flared up like crazy, and I got a nasty migraine. We were able to build up a tolerance to it very slowly, so it is OK that he wears it around me himself now, but that first attempt before we knew there'd be a problem was very unpleasant. People that use it more along those lines are the ones I have a big problem with. >Again it wasn't you who said that there should be no restaurants that >don't serve gluten free products. I actually agree with a lot of what >you have said in this thread. Okay, just making sure you realized that... I'm too quick to assume people are objecting directly to me right now, I apologize. >I think it is not so much that I am more comfortable around them as I >have had to learn to be and that my level of independance is low enough >that I really do rely on them. I have to have NTs in my house because my >carers are NT and so is the respite carer who takes me shopping. I haven't tried living on my own yet... I admit I am afraid of what will happen when I attempt it. >When I describe things like enjoying going out amongst NTs to watch them I am >not talking about doing this on a daily basis. Things like university >which cause me to have exposure to their way of living on a daily basis >end up prohibitively difficult for me to participate in. Oh, okay... I had the impression from your comments (on AS-Circle in particular) that you were suddenly able to hang out with NTs on a regular basis without encountering serious difficulties, which had me *really* confused, as I remembered you mentioning last year that you were more severe than seemed to make that possible. I haven't managed to participate on a daily basis -- I'm graduating tomorrow from university, but aside from one class that I love enough to endure (which I audio-record) each week, I haven't actually *attended* anything since early March. Every time I tried, I'd get so stressed out and exhausted that I'd become physically ill. > Once again, I >don't recall you saying I wasn't autistic. I was responding to what you >said about if I can enjoy NTdom or whatever. Well, I can't and I don't. Okay, that is different. I recalled you saying on AS-Circle that you were able to hang out with NTs now, that is all. >Occasionally I will have a nice time for a few hours or less watching >them like a movie or interacting with them in a really fake way almost >as a social experiment (to see how they react and test my acting >ability) but on the whole I find normal society quite intolerable. I >have only started to approach sanity since living by myself in my own >house where apart from NT carers and necessary appointments I don't have >to mingle with people unless I want to. I might be able to tolerate things better once I live completely on my own in a clean house. I know that when I was living with Parrish during my visits there, I was able to handle being in the NT world a bit more -- I still didn't *like* being out there, it still tired me out, but at least I didn't become upset and exhausted within a few minutes of being in it. >Sounds good. I can foresee a problem with how far that should be taken >and where to draw the boundaries (not geographical ones) though. Yes, same here. I'm thinking that we could have houses placed far enough apart that the lifestyle at one home wouldn't affect autistics in surrounding homes, then divide by childfree/parenting because kids tend to not stay on their own property? (Would cat dander from my house bother you if the homes were far enough apart, I had a HEPA-filtered air cleaning system built in, and could use some kind of device to remove all cat dander from my clothes before going out the door into the world in case we ran into each other at the store?) Or fences a good distance from each home, camoflaged by hyperallergenic plants, that would keep animals *and* children upon their own property, along with optional soundproofing? (Hmm. No, that wouldn't work, because I'd want to be able to surf the Internet in my yard and I can't do that if there's kids playing loudly enough as I'd then have to retreat indoors. Well, it might work for animals, but I don't think the fence would be enough for those that don't want children nearby.) In order to avoid having to set up different shopping centers, perhaps we could have different days/hours designated for different preferences? So perhaps people with dogs could shop on Tuesdays, those with kids would get Wednesdays, those with dogs and kids get Thursday, those with neither get Friday... Or break it down into sets of hours each day? I admit I think that it's fun to try to solve logistical problems like this. Or I might just be avoiding studying for finals... LOL >Are you renting? Having my own place where I don't have to have rent >inspections or worry about the termination of my lease has greatly >contributed to my sanity. Somewhat. I live with my mother, who I pay a hefty rent to. No rent inspections, but she is mentally ill (BPD, NPD, possibly MPD), so I have to constantly worry she's going to have one of her " bad days " and throw me out on the street. I need to be able to find a place where I can live with my cats, then I can move. >Aren't children or anyone making noise for that matter banned in >libraries? Adults get thrown out of my campus library for making a >noise. In theory, yes... In reality, it's not enforced at the campus *or* city library here. I don't even bother going to the city library except on rare occasions because it's just way too noisy for me and I end up losing the ability to read. Even the library staff are noisy at my university -- but it's easier for me to block their chatter out with some music than it is to block out the shrieks of playing children. :^P >My biggest problem with my university campus is that it is built >around a central courtyard and in that courtyard are a lot of people >speaking different languages, smoking, eating stinky food, fundraising >bbqs and the worst of all they have live DJs and bands and very loud >music. I used to go to a college campus like that, and I hated it too. I ended up taking a ton of classes at weird hours so the place would be mostly deserted. Berkeley isn't built on a central courtyard (though we have Sproul Plaza) but the whole campus is so incredibly crowded that it's impossible to find anywhere to be alone or away from noise. I usually end up coming home on the edge of meltdown after a day there and just sleeping straight through until the next day I had to be there. > Last year I encountered this (and this place is 1.5 hours by >public transport away from my home so I couldn't easily just choose to >leave and be safe because to get home I would have to be on crowded >buses and trains) and I ended up running crying with my hands over my >ears into the health and counselling entrance and my psychologist was >called out. I had a lot of problems in part because I too live 1.5 hours from campus and couldn't just leave. I ended up wasting a lot of days there because I'd drug myself into a stupor to merely get through the day without that kind of meltdown, then be so confused from the drugs that I either got lost on campus or forgot to attend lecture. > He took me into the consulting room (probably the quietest >place in the building) and I rocked and stimmed and cried my eyes out >until I was calm enough to sit normally. The psychologist then escorted >me through the crowd and noise to my next lecture which was far enough >away from the noise that it was bearable. He steered me with my >shoulders and I just walked forward with my eyes mostly shut and my >hands over my ears. It was good of him to do that for you... I think if I could *find* the campus health department (which is several blocks away from campus) in that mental state, they'd be so freaked out by my behavior that they'd do something terrible. My school has lost most of its accommodative atmosphere since I was last there, unfortunately. >The problem with finding places on my campus away >from all this is that there are very few which are safe. There have been >numerous rapes on campus (it's a very big open bushland type campus) and >people are advised to stick together and not go into remote areas. The problem I run into with finding places away from the ruckus is that there are too many students -- it's just not possible. When I was there after dark, I had to worry about attackers as you did, because we have had problems with rapists, the place is *not* well-lit, and the buildings have a ton of places where it would be very easy to hurt somebody without being noticed. >Again with these few kids that isn't the case. They are highly >intelligent and softly spoken kids who can cope with sitting still when >they are around me. Most kids I find intensely annoying and the " why " >this " why " that that they do at a certain age also is annoying. I'm not >sure why this particular family of kids is tolerable to me but they are >just the total opposite of ADHD in that they are very calm and >adult-like in the way they speak and move. That's interesting... I had one cousin that was like that when she was a young toddler -- extremely intelligent, soft-spoken, polite. Then she hit age four, somehow gained the ability to flirt, and changed into something I couldn't stand to be around. I'm not talking the kind of scary flirting that molested kids engage in, but the typical " female " whiny singsong voice that little girls use to get what they want out of their father (I was never like that) in between using other highly NT forms of speech I couldn't understand. She also seemed to gain a lot of energy around then, would twirl around in her cutesy skirts or skip cutely, proclaim loudly that she liked Disney Princesses or whatever, and generally be a Normal Stereotypical Little Girl. >I like cats too although my like of them has been greatly soured by the >experience of having a roommate subject me to them for a long time >causing me to walk around on peak flows of 150 and less for about a year >and nearly die 14 times. That cured me of any wish to try to learn to be >around cats and fight the allergy which I previously used to do. Yes, I remember you telling me about that, and I don't blame you. I admit that while I think birds are really neat to study and watch, I avoid them because of some bad experiences with my step-grandmother's tiel. She (the bird, not my s-grandma) was very intelligent and liked to be petted, but had a bad habit of flying up to people and biting them hard enough to cut the skin. I was bitten a couple of times, so I'm rather nervous around birds now. So I love watching birds, but I become *very* nervous if they are close to me. >I do tell smokers to put that damn cigarette out regularly. If I don't >then I will walk past them and very oviously wave my hand in front of my >nose and cough in their direction. Coughing isn't optional but I always >make it obvious that the smokers are causing it. Sometimes I also will >say " f***ing smokers " to the person I am walking with (if I'm not alone) >in a voice loud enough for them to hear. I got into a nasty fight with my mother and brother on Mother's Day when we went out to dinner over my doing something very similar to that (though I did not swear)... There were people smoking where they legally are not supposed to (in California there is supposed to be a fifteen-foot safety zone near all building entrances) and their smoke was setting my asthma off. I made my family move, but they made a ton of derogatory remarks about how I was being " too sensitive " ... When another group of smokers came to also sit close to the building, I complained to the restaurant staff, which caused a pretty serious (but quiet for the moment) argument to break out between my family and I. I ended up starting to fall apart, taking extra prednisone, and drugging myself on anti-anxiety pills just so I could be calm enough to get through the stupid meal. >My only fear of bad reactions from parents when I make some not unjust >comment about their child's behaviour is a few incidents over the years >where I have nearly been punched for it. So the fear of a bad reaction >isn't really that I care what they think of me, but just that I care for >my personal safety. I have noticed that the suburb where the incident >occurs has a large bearing on the type of reactions I get. That I can understand. I am unafraid of parents just because I have such a high (but totally contained) aggression level myself -- so even if I lost the urge to hit back (I am *very* violent when attacked) sometimes I wish they would try to hit me just so I'd have the " excuse " to press charges. >Probably the most common reaction kids in public places get from me is > " SHUT UP!!! " or a very nasty glare if they come too close to me. That is >if I can't avoid them. I've been known to do that! > I don't see this as the parents or child's >problem as much as it is my problem with them. Just like dogs and owners >are not the ones with the problem but I am. Yes, though as you pointed out, it is sometimes a case of really bad parenting -- it's not just you being upset, but a lot of other adults that don't dare speak up. In those cases it *is* the parents' problem, as they aren't raising their kids to have any respect for others. If I could slip something in the water supply to my suburb to prevent all the adults on my block from reproducing, I'd happily do it, because they've *all* raised serious brats. It's bad enough that I am afraid to park my car on the street instead of the driveway because even in this " nice " neighborhood, the " playing " kids tend to accidentally scratch the hell out of vehicles while being careless with their toys. I have to replace the brickwork in front of my house because they've played on it so much that it has totally crumbled... I don't think that being displeased over that is necessarily just my " problem " as much as it is a case of some really rotten children with rotten " breeder " parents. DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy " It's not 'being fussy' -- it's knowing what you want. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 >> Once again, I >>don't recall you saying I wasn't autistic. I was responding to what you >>said about if I can enjoy NTdom or whatever. Well, I can't and I don't. > > > Okay, that is different. I recalled you saying on AS-Circle that you were > able to hang out with NTs now, that is all. I attend a church mainly to give myself some " social exercise " since I find being a complete isolate to be both depressing and to make it harder for me when I do need to go out and about for activities of daily living. I have been to one social event in recent years which was a video night with Bianca and her two children (the children I keep talking about in this thread who I can cope with being around for a few hours without too much difficulty). The main thing that has surprised me since I have once again started to reach out to the world around me rather than trying so hard to hole myself up and pretend it doesn't exist is that I have met plenty of NTs who aren't the narrow minded stereotype of NT that these autism lists seem to uphold. During the time when these lists were really my only interaction with people I came to forget that and to just categorise NTs as some kind of evil nasty alien race in my mind. Of course, I believe that I would have just as much difficulty being around autistics as I do around NTs based on what I have seen on these lists. I might be good friends with some autistics online but if say the members of this list were all to go out on a bus trip to the museum or some other social activity which didn't have socialising as the only object of it I think it would be unbearable for me more so than going out on a bus trip with a bunch of NTs who would largely mingle with themselves and probably not argue or inadvertently upset each other. I have said quite a few times on these lists that my social disability is not limited to interaction with non-autistic people. >>Occasionally I will have a nice time for a few hours or less watching >>them like a movie or interacting with them in a really fake way almost >>as a social experiment (to see how they react and test my acting >>ability) but on the whole I find normal society quite intolerable. I >>have only started to approach sanity since living by myself in my own >>house where apart from NT carers and necessary appointments I don't have >>to mingle with people unless I want to. > > > I might be able to tolerate things better once I live completely on my own > in a clean house. I know that when I was living with Parrish during my > visits there, I was able to handle being in the NT world a bit more -- I > still didn't *like* being out there, it still tired me out, but at least I > didn't become upset and exhausted within a few minutes of being in it. That is exactly what I have found since living alone. When I had a roommate (an extremely filthy and dependant/clingy roommate I should add) I was far more aversive to going out and interacting than I am now that my place is my own. >>Sounds good. I can foresee a problem with how far that should be taken >>and where to draw the boundaries (not geographical ones) though. > > > Yes, same here. I'm thinking that we could have houses placed far enough > apart that the lifestyle at one home wouldn't affect autistics in > surrounding homes, then divide by childfree/parenting because kids tend to > not stay on their own property? (Would cat dander from my house bother you > if the homes were far enough apart, I had a HEPA-filtered air cleaning > system built in, and could use some kind of device to remove all cat dander > from my clothes before going out the door into the world in case we ran > into each other at the store?) In those contexts no it wouldn't because I take steroidal inhalers and I avoid close personal contact because of my autism. If you were to hug me in a cat dander covered shirt I would become ill but if you were to just walk at a safe distance (in terms of personal space not allergy) near me at a supermarket it would not bother me. The person next door to me has a dog and the only times that bothers me is when it barks and jumps near the fence (mesh fence at that) which is right next to my dining room window assuming I have that window open. To be honest the dog's barking bothers me most about it. There are numerous cats that wander around this suburb and as long as I have no close airspace or physical contact they don't bother me either. I do chase them out of my garden though becuase I have a memorial birdbath to honour my dear budgie Toby who passed on last year and it annoys the bejeezus out of me to see cats lying around by that waiting for birds to come down to be eaten. > Or fences a good distance from each home, camoflaged by hyperallergenic > plants, that would keep animals *and* children upon their own property, > along with optional soundproofing? (Hmm. No, that wouldn't work, because > I'd want to be able to surf the Internet in my yard and I can't do that if > there's kids playing loudly enough as I'd then have to retreat > indoors. Well, it might work for animals, but I don't think the fence > would be enough for those that don't want children nearby.) > > In order to avoid having to set up different shopping centers, perhaps we > could have different days/hours designated for different preferences? So > perhaps people with dogs could shop on Tuesdays, those with kids would get > Wednesdays, those with dogs and kids get Thursday, those with neither get > Friday... Or break it down into sets of hours each day? The problem with dogs on different days is that the dander stays in the environment despite very stringent cleaning. I encountered this with a psychologist who had his dog in his consulting room because many patients found it relaxing. I was unable to go back for a 2nd appointment even though he offered to vacuum the room and open the window. As for kids, I like that idea. If I had an option when it comes to timeslots for shopping (which I don't as I am at the mercy of a respite carer for this) I would choose times when children would be in school. I try to as much as possible because the shops tend to be quieter and less overloading. The same goes for choosing less crowded times to avoid bustling people that overload me. > I admit I think that it's fun to try to solve logistical problems like > this. Or I might just be avoiding studying for finals... LOL I would say it is fun too. I really do believe that these logistical problems and the level of diversity would end up with a community not so different in inconvenience from what we live in now though. I like the idea of no descrimination and the value systems described but trying to eliminate sensory issues and allergies and preferences and all that seems like it would be far too difficult logistically. >>Are you renting? Having my own place where I don't have to have rent >>inspections or worry about the termination of my lease has greatly >>contributed to my sanity. > > > Somewhat. I live with my mother, who I pay a hefty rent to. No rent > inspections, but she is mentally ill (BPD, NPD, possibly MPD), so I have to > constantly worry she's going to have one of her " bad days " and throw me out > on the street. I need to be able to find a place where I can live with my > cats, then I can move. Well living with a BPD is sheer hell and I know that one from experience. I have a mother who although has settled down a lot in recent years fits the BPD profile like a glove and I have lived in hospital wards and shared accomodation with many a BPD patient. That is something I never ever wish to do again. > >>Aren't children or anyone making noise for that matter banned in >>libraries? Adults get thrown out of my campus library for making a >>noise. > > > In theory, yes... In reality, it's not enforced at the campus *or* city > library here. I don't even bother going to the city library except on rare > occasions because it's just way too noisy for me and I end up losing the > ability to read. Even the library staff are noisy at my university -- but > it's easier for me to block their chatter out with some music than it is to > block out the shrieks of playing children. :^P Those rules are enforced here. I got told to leave the local library near my house when I was there to do photocopying for talking too loudly to my home help lady and laughing too loudly. I find reading in libraries near impossible myself because of the lighting but my Irlen glasses help significantly with that. I love the smell of books and to sit on the floor between aisles and read but I have noticed as an adult that reading on the floor in the aisles is frowned upon. >>My biggest problem with my university campus is that it is built >>around a central courtyard and in that courtyard are a lot of people >>speaking different languages, smoking, eating stinky food, fundraising >>bbqs and the worst of all they have live DJs and bands and very loud >>music. > > > I used to go to a college campus like that, and I hated it too. I ended up > taking a ton of classes at weird hours so the place would be mostly > deserted. Berkeley isn't built on a central courtyard (though we have > Sproul Plaza) but the whole campus is so incredibly crowded that it's > impossible to find anywhere to be alone or away from noise. I usually end > up coming home on the edge of meltdown after a day there and just sleeping > straight through until the next day I had to be there. I can't take courses at strange hours because of the transport problem. I have to go in during the day when public transport is frequent and safe or not at all. Uni campus is not a safe place to be at night or early morning alone and there are security notices and buttons all over the place for students to buzz a security guard to escort them to the bus if they are alone and there during an unusual or unpopulated hour. >> Last year I encountered this (and this place is 1.5 hours by >>public transport away from my home so I couldn't easily just choose to >>leave and be safe because to get home I would have to be on crowded >>buses and trains) and I ended up running crying with my hands over my >>ears into the health and counselling entrance and my psychologist was >>called out. > > > I had a lot of problems in part because I too live 1.5 hours from campus > and couldn't just leave. I ended up wasting a lot of days there because > I'd drug myself into a stupor to merely get through the day without that > kind of meltdown, then be so confused from the drugs that I either got lost > on campus or forgot to attend lecture. Yes. I used to go the sick room when I had an hour or more between classes and take a valium and lie down in the semi-darkness and the nurse would come and tell me when it was time for my next class. Seroquel did help me to cope with this aspect but not eliminate it. >> He took me into the consulting room (probably the quietest >>place in the building) and I rocked and stimmed and cried my eyes out >>until I was calm enough to sit normally. The psychologist then escorted >>me through the crowd and noise to my next lecture which was far enough >>away from the noise that it was bearable. He steered me with my >>shoulders and I just walked forward with my eyes mostly shut and my >>hands over my ears. > > > It was good of him to do that for you... I think if I could *find* the > campus health department (which is several blocks away from campus) in that > mental state, they'd be so freaked out by my behavior that they'd do > something terrible. My school has lost most of its accommodative > atmosphere since I was last there, unfortunately. I was so freaked out and in sensory overload at times on campus that I would almost hallucinate. One memorable occasion was when I had walked into health and counselling and was standing before the reception desk and I heard someone yell my name loudly and clearly behind me. I reacted with surprise and quickly spun around (almost in fight or flight response the way I would react to seeing a large insect out of the corner of my eyes) and said " What! " rather loudly. It was only then that I realised the sliding doors about 2' behind me were closed and there was nobody anywhere near them. The students that were in the courtyard at that time were huddled in groups talking amongst themselves. The receptionist didn't say anything but I can be pretty sure that she was wondering what was wrong with me (or surmising that I was psychotic). The psychologist knew about my problems and I was seeing him strictly for CBT for my OCD. He was pretty understanding about the whole thing. I actually have an appointment with him tomorrow morning on campus where I intend to start up CBT again and discuss my enrolment for next semester. I have decided to give internal studies another try since external was a dismal failure and decided to go back to CBT after a long break. Things fell apart for me in terms of uni and seeing that psychologist during the leadup to the incident that ended with my father on a violence restraining order and it took me a while to settle down and feel safe and ok about life enough to want to study. >>The problem with finding places on my campus away > >>from all this is that there are very few which are safe. There have been > >>numerous rapes on campus (it's a very big open bushland type campus) and >>people are advised to stick together and not go into remote areas. > > > The problem I run into with finding places away from the ruckus is that > there are too many students -- it's just not possible. When I was there > after dark, I had to worry about attackers as you did, because we have had > problems with rapists, the place is *not* well-lit, and the buildings have > a ton of places where it would be very easy to hurt somebody without being > noticed. Same at my campus. Most of the good secluded safe spots during the day are filled with pot-smokers. >>Again with these few kids that isn't the case. They are highly >>intelligent and softly spoken kids who can cope with sitting still when >>they are around me. Most kids I find intensely annoying and the " why " >>this " why " that that they do at a certain age also is annoying. I'm not >>sure why this particular family of kids is tolerable to me but they are >>just the total opposite of ADHD in that they are very calm and >>adult-like in the way they speak and move. > > > That's interesting... I had one cousin that was like that when she was a > young toddler -- extremely intelligent, soft-spoken, polite. Then she hit > age four, somehow gained the ability to flirt, and changed into something I > couldn't stand to be around. I'm not talking the kind of scary flirting > that molested kids engage in, but the typical " female " whiny singsong voice > that little girls use to get what they want out of their father (I was > never like that) in between using other highly NT forms of speech I > couldn't understand. She also seemed to gain a lot of energy around then, > would twirl around in her cutesy skirts or skip cutely, proclaim loudly > that she liked Disney Princesses or whatever, and generally be a Normal > Stereotypical Little Girl. Bianca's girl is like that when around her friends or adults who can cope with it but she is remarkably understanding around me and doesn't subject me to it. She is from what I can remember 10 years old and is very mature and well-behaved. >>I like cats too although my like of them has been greatly soured by the >>experience of having a roommate subject me to them for a long time >>causing me to walk around on peak flows of 150 and less for about a year >>and nearly die 14 times. That cured me of any wish to try to learn to be >>around cats and fight the allergy which I previously used to do. > > > Yes, I remember you telling me about that, and I don't blame you. I admit > that while I think birds are really neat to study and watch, I avoid them > because of some bad experiences with my step-grandmother's tiel. She (the > bird, not my s-grandma) was very intelligent and liked to be petted, but > had a bad habit of flying up to people and biting them hard enough to cut > the skin. I was bitten a couple of times, so I'm rather nervous around > birds now. So I love watching birds, but I become *very* nervous if they > are close to me. I can understand that. There are ways to train birds not to behave like that but you will always find some that bite for the fun of it. People who visit my house don't have to endure contact with my birds unless they really want to because my birds are kept in cages when other people are here unless I am asked to let one or more out to play with. I only have one bird who bites just because she can instead of out of fear or expressing dislike of what someone does. That is a white budgie called Icicle and she really is a nasty little piece of work. She is perfectly tame and not at all afraid of people but she just bites for the hell of it. >>I do tell smokers to put that damn cigarette out regularly. If I don't >>then I will walk past them and very oviously wave my hand in front of my >>nose and cough in their direction. Coughing isn't optional but I always >>make it obvious that the smokers are causing it. Sometimes I also will >>say " f***ing smokers " to the person I am walking with (if I'm not alone) >>in a voice loud enough for them to hear. > > > I got into a nasty fight with my mother and brother on Mother's Day when we > went out to dinner over my doing something very similar to that (though I > did not swear)... There were people smoking where they legally are not > supposed to (in California there is supposed to be a fifteen-foot safety > zone near all building entrances) and their smoke was setting my asthma > off. I made my family move, but they made a ton of derogatory remarks > about how I was being " too sensitive " ... When another group of smokers > came to also sit close to the building, I complained to the restaurant > staff, which caused a pretty serious (but quiet for the moment) argument to > break out between my family and I. I ended up starting to fall apart, > taking extra prednisone, and drugging myself on anti-anxiety pills just so > I could be calm enough to get through the stupid meal. I would have got up and left to sit somewhere else by myself and said blow what the family thinks. I will not be subjected to sidestream smoke. I have the right not to be. Smokers can find places where they can smoke without endangering the lungs of non-smokers. It is not a matter of dislike or inconvenience but smoking is a known carcinogen quite apart from how it affects asthmatics and I think subjecting other people or children to it is deplorable. >>Probably the most common reaction kids in public places get from me is >> " SHUT UP!!! " or a very nasty glare if they come too close to me. That is >>if I can't avoid them. > > > I've been known to do that! > > >> I don't see this as the parents or child's >>problem as much as it is my problem with them. Just like dogs and owners >>are not the ones with the problem but I am. > > > Yes, though as you pointed out, it is sometimes a case of really bad > parenting -- it's not just you being upset, but a lot of other adults that > don't dare speak up. In those cases it *is* the parents' problem, as they > aren't raising their kids to have any respect for others. If I could slip > something in the water supply to my suburb to prevent all the adults on my > block from reproducing, I'd happily do it, because they've *all* raised > serious brats. It's bad enough that I am afraid to park my car on the > street instead of the driveway because even in this " nice " neighborhood, > the " playing " kids tend to accidentally scratch the hell out of vehicles > while being careless with their toys. I have to replace the brickwork in > front of my house because they've played on it so much that it has totally > crumbled... I don't think that being displeased over that is necessarily > just my " problem " as much as it is a case of some really rotten children > with rotten " breeder " parents. Specifying that it is rotten parents not all parents who you object to could help eliminate the raised backs and defensive responses I have no problem with kids being kids but when it damages myself or my property or damages my mental state I will speak my mind about it or report it to the authorities if the kids aren't the type I would feel safe approaching (i.e. a gang of aboriginal kids throwing rocks at cars are not the type whose attention I would want to draw to myself and my house). When I see the kids at church throwing paper darts or doing other dangerous things I tell them that they should not be doing it and occasionally I will go out of my way to tell them a little story about (in the instance of paper darts) a little boy who lost his eye to really impress upon them why what they are doing is not good. 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Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Antryg Windrose danced around singing: >I know for sure that some members of this list (and participants in this >discussion) are capable of studying higher education and capable of >having relationships. These are two things which the degree my autism >affects me really prevents me from doing. I also am prevented from >tolerating NT society for any length or time and I would be a completely >unfit parent were I to be landed with a child. I can't cope with other >peoples let alone my own. I have yet to see anyone on this list mention >having carers come to their house or other types of supported living. I've avoided carers in part because I didn't know they existed in my area, in part because my female parent would never let them into the house. I would live a much better life if I had that kind of help...as it is I am still highly dependent upon my family and have not managed to live alone yet. When I visited Parrish it became extremely clear, for the first time, that in terms of taking care of myself I'm nowhere near functional yet. It was a serious jolt into reality when I realized I couldn't co-ordinate myself enough to do anything more than visit the same bookstore chain I visit here at home all the time, and that even though I'd made the trip by public transit a ton of times on my trips, I still couldn't find my way back to the apartment without Parrish's help. I can study higher education in the sense that, if left totally alone in my own environment and am perfectly calm, then I can easily outdo my peers in academic work. I don't qualify in the group that can *go to* school at the moment, because almost every single day I've tried has been a total disaster. Right now I don't even qualify as someone that is " succeeding " in school, because I am too stressed to actually do the work or study. :^P We already all know my bizarre relationship history: one abusive NT I didn't want to be with but couldn't figure out how to get rid of. Then Parrish -- and I will be honest, had he not started to find ways to help me not run away without my realizing that was what he was doing for a long time, I wouldn't even have been able to tolerate friendship. I am in the relationship not merely because I wish to be, but also because all of those times when I want to quit out of frustration/pain, I have his help (sometimes against my will, if I'm upset enough) in staying in contact with him. It is not so much a sign that I am higher-functioning in this regard, as that this time the guy I " can't get rid of " is someone I don't *want* to escape. As he pointed out, with the way autism manifested in me, if I did figure out how to leave him during one of my periodic meltdowns, it would only be a matter of time before an equally perseverant but abusive (a la my ex) man decided to trap me in a relationship instead. DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Antryg Windrose danced around singing: >I hope in the above paragraphs I was able to shed some light on why you >get so many child hater comments. I am sure you are right, but there is one huge problem. I don't have more than an extremely rudimentary ability to read " between the lines " which means that in output, I have no clue how people are going to interpret my words. I can't read over a paragraph that I write and say " ah, yes, I am implying that I hate children here " or " here is an area where my saying I hate noise will translate out to my hating all beings under age 18 " ... If I could do that, obviously I would not be wandering around " sounding like " I hate things when I do not. has pointed out elsewhere that interpreting language is inevitable. There's again the problem that for autistics like me, even if we can write extremely well otherwise, we can't read beyond the literal meaning of words. It is very frustrating, in a discussion, to have someone say that they got an idea of my feelings based on what I said, when I didn't actually say how I feel, and therefore I did not actually express my feelings at all. Or to be having a discussion in which the person suddenly says they didn't say something, when factually speaking they did *say* it, it's just that they meant something other than what their literal wording said. Is that my problem? Perhaps. The thing is, though, on a list full of autistics, I would hope that people would realize that there's going to be at least one of us that is not able to work with non-literal language, and therefore that reading our words *has* to be done literally. I can (and have) memorized certain groups of words that I shouldn't use together, but beyond that subtlety level I am stuck. There isn't a hell of a lot I can do about it, nor am I entirely sure that I would wish to alter that part of myself as I suspect my highly concrete thought processes have some kind of strong benefit I would only discover by losing them. DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 DeGraf wrote: > Antryg Windrose danced around singing: > >>I know for sure that some members of this list (and participants in this >>discussion) are capable of studying higher education and capable of >>having relationships. These are two things which the degree my autism >>affects me really prevents me from doing. I also am prevented from >>tolerating NT society for any length or time and I would be a completely >>unfit parent were I to be landed with a child. I can't cope with other >>peoples let alone my own. I have yet to see anyone on this list mention >>having carers come to their house or other types of supported living. > > > I've avoided carers in part because I didn't know they existed in my area, > in part because my female parent would never let them into the house. I > would live a much better life if I had that kind of help...as it is I am > still highly dependent upon my family and have not managed to live alone > yet. When I visited Parrish it became extremely clear, for the first time, > that in terms of taking care of myself I'm nowhere near functional yet. It > was a serious jolt into reality when I realized I couldn't co-ordinate > myself enough to do anything more than visit the same bookstore chain I > visit here at home all the time, and that even though I'd made the trip by > public transit a ton of times on my trips, I still couldn't find my way > back to the apartment without Parrish's help. I was referred to the home help agency after a short hospitalisation for major depression (which responded promptly to medication) during which they saw the level of inability to cope alone that I was faced with. Before that, my primary carer although not a live-in one was the parent who had been jailed more than 10 years previously for molesting me. It was a choice between him or psychiatric units or my awful mother. The carers have given me what I need to be able to divorce myself from that sick necessity of having my father treat me (even though post-jail not sexually) as a surrogate wife and given me the ability to get rid of that unspeakable waste of carbon. CZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 DeGraf wrote: > Antryg Windrose danced around singing: > >>I hope in the above paragraphs I was able to shed some light on why you >>get so many child hater comments. > > > I am sure you are right, but there is one huge problem. I don't have more > than an extremely rudimentary ability to read " between the lines " which > means that in output, I have no clue how people are going to interpret my > words. I can't read over a paragraph that I write and say " ah, yes, I am > implying that I hate children here " or " here is an area where my saying I > hate noise will translate out to my hating all beings under age 18 " ... If > I could do that, obviously I would not be wandering around " sounding like " > I hate things when I do not. I don't think it's as subtle and between the lines as that. I have trouble with reading subtext but the derogatory way you have plenty of times spoken about parents seemed pretty obvious to me. I guess one way to start lessening the negative responses could be to avoid insulting name calling (such as Sproglet which to most mothers would come across as a highly insulting term for their beloved children) and maybe to avoid value judgements such as (paraphrased) " you might want to devote your life to breeding but I have better things to do with my time " . > has pointed out elsewhere that interpreting language is > inevitable. There's again the problem that for autistics like me, even if > we can write extremely well otherwise, we can't read beyond the literal > meaning of words. It is very frustrating, in a discussion, to have someone > say that they got an idea of my feelings based on what I said, when I > didn't actually say how I feel, and therefore I did not actually express my > feelings at all. Or to be having a discussion in which the person suddenly > says they didn't say something, when factually speaking they did *say* it, > it's just that they meant something other than what their literal wording said. Well, I would say that the childfree discussions have included not so subtle or unspoken insults and value judgements about mothers and children. > Is that my problem? Perhaps. The thing is, though, on a list full of > autistics, I would hope that people would realize that there's going to be > at least one of us that is not able to work with non-literal language, and > therefore that reading our words *has* to be done literally. I can (and > have) memorized certain groups of words that I shouldn't use together, but > beyond that subtlety level I am stuck. There isn't a hell of a lot I can > do about it, nor am I entirely sure that I would wish to alter that part of > myself as I suspect my highly concrete thought processes have some kind of > strong benefit I would only discover by losing them. Literal language to express personal likes, dislikes, aversions and viewpoints is very different to using offensive names and terminology to describe something that is obviously very special to other people on a list and also saying blatantly that you have better things to do. That is guaranteed to get a certain group of people bristling with anger and snorting to themselves that you're not so high and mighty and better than them or whatever. I would say one important element is that " I " statements like expressing how you feel and what you like or don't like are more likely to be taken well than " you " statements about what is good or bad or nasty or nice or valuable or otherwise about somebody else's choices and life. It is really easy to offend people with views and not so hard to avoid offending them in most cases just by expressing views as personal views and not as a statement about other people in their presence. I know we are all guilty of making pointed and judgemental remarks when expressing views. I certainly am myself. CZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 , I forgot to add one possible reason why I think the term " breeder " might be seen as negative by people who want or have children. I would read the term as having a bit of a negative flavour to it because I am involved with birds and breeding birds. To me, a breeder is either a human who has animals and facilitates their breeding whether for sale or personal pleasure or show purposes. The term is also used by me to describe the birds themselves. For example, Mysti is a good breeder. She laid her first clutch of eggs at a young age and behaved very maturely and well with them. They were all infertile because of the cock bird's young age (probably not old enough to produce proper sperm) and almost certainly because of the pair's inexperience with mating. Birds have a pretty poor chance of fertility compared to animals that insert a penis into a vagina. Birds mate by rubbing their cloaca (with all organs internal) onto each others and hopefully the sperm will enter the female and not be stopped by feathers or poor technique in the way. Anyway, this next clutch Mysti has laid 8 eggs, 6 of which are fertile. She is still under a year old. So, Mysti is a good breeder. A lot of people will interpret analogies between them and animals to be negative. Whether that is logical or not since animals often are involved in parenting in a lot " better " ways than many humans are, that is just the way a lot of people are. Animals are usually seen as lower lifeforms, lower in the food chain, unintelligent or relatively so, and in most cases less valuable. Of course there are many exceptions to this rule such as vegetarians/vegans and some places like India animals are revered. I believe that in some parts of India cows are treated with as much if not more respect than human lives are. Anyway comparing a human mother to an animal in terms of breeding is bound to get negative reactions from some mothers (or even most). CZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 danced around singing: >And again the problem that there is often more than one literal meaning >of a word. I have seen autistics argue vociferously over the literal >meaning of a single word, because both were real dictionary definitions >but each was convinced that (because they were autistic, and therefore >their interpretation was " literal " ) their particular exact >interpretation was the more literal one and therefore the more right >one. > >Since there are more than one literal meaning of words, that is a big >part of what I mean when I say interpretation is inevitable. I'm curious, which word were they arguing over? I think that we're discussing a different level of interpretation, in any event. I'm not talking about cases where the words have multiple meanings and I'm disagreeing on which meaning is used. What I am referring to is where I make a literal (non-ambiguous, non-multiple-meaning sentence and someone else is reading unspoken meanings in. For example, if I say " It annoys me when the neighbors' children run around screaming at 7am when I am trying to sleep in " that is meant as a literal: I have negative feelings when a specific group makes loud noise at a specific hour. No more, no less. However, someone reading totally unintended meaning will translate that as: " hates all children and their parents at all times of day. " There's no question of whether we're agreeing on the definitions of words -- the other person is simply coming to inaccurate conclusions by reading information *between* the lines that is not there at all. DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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