Re: United Statesian (was Re: RE:)

[Guest guest]

--- Rakus wrote:

>

> That is a stupid thing to say. I've always loved

> reggae...that was one of

> the reasons that I got married in Jamaica...and no

> one has ever refused to

> sell me a reggae CD because I'm a white woman.

---------Oh you have? how neat! Who are some of your

favorite bands/singers? And where in Jamaica did you

get married? I've never been, would love to go to

Negril, altho heat/humidity are problems for me, but I

suppose I could enjoy the mornings and early evenings.

>

>

> Having grown up in an area full of " white trash " , I

> would have to admit to

> being quite prejudiced against them.

-----------That was our old neighborhood, a 10 block

area called " Dogpatch " surrounded by ritzy suburban

neighborhoods.

>

> Most of the very liberal people I've known have been

> too easily offended and

> high-maintenance for me to be able to develop any

> kind of relationships with

> them. I can't allow myself to go past the level of

> formal politeness with

> them. I have enough trouble with people who have

> " normal " offense levels.

>

> I try never to denigrate anyone based on their

> beliefs...no matter how

> different they are from mine. However, I'm always

> on the lookout for faulty

> logic, and I usually don't miss many chances to

> point those out ;o).

>

>

>

----------My old friend K, who was offended by my

pointing out an individual black person was a known

thief, I could not understand her 'logic'. Now that I

think of it, her broad generalizations about black

people are perhaps a kind of racism, if she is not

viewing individuals as individuals.

Nanne

=====

" Does it mean I should take a machete? To chop my way through the path of life?

Does it mean I should run with the dog pack? Is that the way to be the one to

survive? Never need a gun says T'ai Chi, move on up to dragon snaps his tail:

All by the still water, hammer with his eye on the nail; Is the music of grove

school rock, soaked in the diesals of war boys war? Blood, black gold and the

face of a judge, is the music calling for a river of blood?--- " Corner Soul " , ,

Joe Strummer/Mick

[Guest guest]

Rakus danced around singing:

>Most of the very liberal people I've known have been too easily offended and

>high-maintenance for me to be able to develop any kind of relationships with

>them. I can't allow myself to go past the level of formal politeness with

>them. I have enough trouble with people who have " normal " offense levels.

That's interesting... I regard myself as extremely liberal, yet I'm more

intrigued or amused than offended by conservative thinking. OTOH, I have

to watch my step around conservatives or even centrists, because they tend

to get all upset and often quite nasty (name-calling, etc) if I mention my

beliefs. Especially the ones that are religious.

DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

[Guest guest]

--- Rakus wrote:

>

> Of course there are differences. It's a shame that

> such a big deal has been

> made in the past about skin color that it is now

> inappropriate to admit that

> you notice the differences. There is a girl who

> works at the local WalMart

> who has the most beautiful skin that I have ever

> seen. The texture is

> flawless, and she sort of has a radiant glow. She

> also happens to be black.

> Because of the color factor, I feel that it would be

> inappropriate for me to

> tell her that she has beautiful skin.

--------I was shocked when I discovered the 'envy'

some black women have over white hair. I told my

girlfriend that was bizarre to me, b/c she could do so

many more interesting things with her hair, and not

much you can do with fine, limp, thin hair.

And in terms of skin, I told her that I was

actually envious of hers, b/c a lot of black people do

not show their age in terms of wear and tear via their

skin,like white people do. netta is 54 and

doesn't look a day past 29 -- and I hate her for it!

ha!

>

> My aspie son has always called white skin blonde

> skin. I like that. It

> makes it seem to be nothing more significant than

> hair color.

>

--------When Max was three he was trying to figure

out black and white and bi-racial. Explaining his

father and my self creating him, bi-racial, he thought

a moment and said, " Don't worry, Mom, when you grow up

you'll be black too. "

Interestingly enough, he said something similar

when asking why girls didn't have penises: " Don't

worry mom, when you grow up, you'll have a penis too. "

(heh, little did he know, after having been celibate

for many years, I was hoping he was correct on that

one......)

Nanne

=====

" Does it mean I should take a machete? To chop my way through the path of life?

Does it mean I should run with the dog pack? Is that the way to be the one to

survive? Never need a gun says T'ai Chi, move on up to dragon snaps his tail:

All by the still water, hammer with his eye on the nail; Is the music of grove

school rock, soaked in the diesals of war boys war? Blood, black gold and the

face of a judge, is the music calling for a river of blood?--- " Corner Soul " , ,

Joe Strummer/Mick

[Guest guest]

--- Rakus wrote:

>

> From: " Sparrow Rose Cross "

>

> Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 7:59 PM

>

>

> > At 02:46 PM 1/19/03 -0800, DeGraf wrote:

> >

> > I'm going to go stick my head in a hole in the

> ground now. I should have

> > never discussed these things but I thought maybe

> people here would

> > understand about having secret feelings that there

> was something wrong

> with

> > one's self and understand about being afraid to

> talk to people in case

> they

> > saw those dark secrets.

> >

> > I should never open my mouth about race or skin

> color again. I just put my

> > foot in it when I do and what my partner told me

> several months ago is

> > correct: if I don't just shut up about racial and

> ethnic and cultural

> > differences altogether I'm going to end up saying

> the wrong thing to the

> > wrong person and get myself shot.

> >

> > Please, everyone, please just ignore the things I

> said and if you can't

> > ignore them, please just remember that they were

> the words of a foolish

> > girl who's been totally fucked-up by her

> upbringing. I'll go hide int hat

> > ostrich hole now. Please, I hope everyone can

> forgive me and just let this

> > whole topic die before I die of humiliation at my

> screwed up attitudes and

> > fucked up way of communicating.

> >

>

> Uh oh...I guess I'll have to hide in an ostrich hole

> next to yours because I

> think I understood exactly what you were saying!

> I've felt a lot of the

> same things, and I think you expressed them very

> well...much better than I

> could have ).

>

>

>

> -----Sadly, Sparrow has unsubbed from the list, and

I'm worried and hope she's okay!

I understand all she wrote also, as mentioned. No

body goes sticking heads in ostrich holes on this

topic! Being real and honest and getting it out is

one way towards becoming more relaxed and real and

honest about it all (at least imo).

These things that you guys have written are FAR

better than my ex friend K in all her prickly PC-ness!

Nanne

=====

" Does it mean I should take a machete? To chop my way through the path of life?

Does it mean I should run with the dog pack? Is that the way to be the one to

survive? Never need a gun says T'ai Chi, move on up to dragon snaps his tail:

All by the still water, hammer with his eye on the nail; Is the music of grove

school rock, soaked in the diesals of war boys war? Blood, black gold and the

face of a judge, is the music calling for a river of blood?--- " Corner Soul " , ,

Joe Strummer/Mick

[Guest guest]

--- DeGraf wrote:

> Rakus danced around singing:

> >Most of the very liberal people I've known have

> been too easily offended and

> >high-maintenance for me to be able to develop any

> kind of relationships with

> >them. I can't allow myself to go past the level of

> formal politeness with

> >them. I have enough trouble with people who have

> " normal " offense levels.

>

> That's interesting... I regard myself as extremely

> liberal, yet I'm more

> intrigued or amused than offended by conservative

> thinking. OTOH, I have

> to watch my step around conservatives or even

> centrists, because they tend

> to get all upset and often quite nasty

> (name-calling, etc) if I mention my

> beliefs. Especially the ones that are religious.

>

> ----In terms of my ex-friend K, she is viscious in

her beliefs. I've never seen you be viscious in your

beliefs, just logical and you make sense. She is

only my ex-friend b/c of her choice, not mine, I still

liked her as a person and enjoyed her photography.

Anybody, no matter what their beliefs, can become

fanatics and viscious about them. But I have never

seen anyone here become that way. Another good

argument for the beauty of autistic brains!

Nanne

=====

" Does it mean I should take a machete? To chop my way through the path of life?

Does it mean I should run with the dog pack? Is that the way to be the one to

survive? Never need a gun says T'ai Chi, move on up to dragon snaps his tail:

All by the still water, hammer with his eye on the nail; Is the music of grove

school rock, soaked in the diesals of war boys war? Blood, black gold and the

face of a judge, is the music calling for a river of blood?--- " Corner Soul " , ,

Joe Strummer/Mick

[Guest guest]

>

> Rakus danced around singing:

> >Most of the very liberal people I've known have been too easily offended and

> >high-maintenance for me to be able to develop any kind of relationships with

> >them. I can't allow myself to go past the level of formal politeness with

> >them. I have enough trouble with people who have " normal " offense levels.

>

> That's interesting... I regard myself as extremely liberal, yet I'm more

> intrigued or amused than offended by conservative thinking. OTOH, I have

> to watch my step around conservatives or even centrists, because they tend

> to get all upset and often quite nasty (name-calling, etc) if I mention my

> beliefs. Especially the ones that are religious.

I agree with to a point, though I might not have stated it in exactly

those terms. I'm quite liberal compared to most groups in society, but some, in

particular young Unitarian-Universalists, can make me look like a veritable

right-winger (and no, I don't mean the ice hockey position by that name).

With some of them, you have to be extremely careful what jokes you make, since

even if there's no racial or otherwise prejudicial reference you can see,

they'll find something offensive about it. ( " That person isn't stupid -- I'm

sure he was just oppressed by The Man!! " ) With such people, I often have to be

quiet about some of my interests, including watching sports and eating meat,

because such things are too mainstream and I might get yelled at for them.

Around Pagans, this often takes the form of not wanting to express my rational

and skeptical viewpoints on things paranormal, since they'd accuse me of

Outdated Materialist Thinking . There is often a one-upmanship about " I'm

more liberal than you and have been to more protests than you in the last six

months! " .

On the other hand, much heavily conservative thinking does piss me off,

including gems such as " your gay partnership threatens my marriage " and " my

religion is right and yours is wrong " .

Doug

[Guest guest]

--- Doug O'Neal wrote:

>

> With some of them, you have to be extremely careful

> what jokes you make, since even if there's no racial

> or otherwise prejudicial reference you can see,

> they'll find something offensive about it. ( " That

> person isn't stupid -- I'm sure he was just

> oppressed by The Man!! " ) With such people, I often

> have to be quiet about some of my interests,

> including watching sports and eating meat, because

> such things are too mainstream and I might get

> yelled at for them. Around Pagans, this often takes

> the form of not wanting to express my rational and

> skeptical viewpoints on things paranormal, since

> they'd accuse me of Outdated Materialist Thinking

> . There is often a one-upmanship about " I'm

> more liberal than you and have been to more protests

> than you in the last six months! " .

>

---------Interestingly, in the course of some

spiritual discussions on other lists a few people now

have encouraged me to go try out the Unitarian church

here in town. Last time I went to a service there was

over twenty years ago. Whenever I begin to consider

it, I read a post like what you just wrote and am

absolutely positive I'd end up being hounded out of

there, what with my big wise-cracky mouth and all.

I do like the idea of it, though. My friend

netta quit a drum circle there b/c she felt they

had no sense of humour.

I want a church that is at least capable of

experiencing a Tom Robbins style of wit and humour

and glee!

Nanne

Nanne

=====

" Does it mean I should take a machete? To chop my way through the path of life?

Does it mean I should run with the dog pack? Is that the way to be the one to

survive? Never need a gun says T'ai Chi, move on up to dragon snaps his tail:

All by the still water, hammer with his eye on the nail; Is the music of grove

school rock, soaked in the diesals of war boys war? Blood, black gold and the

face of a judge, is the music calling for a river of blood?--- " Corner Soul " , ,

Joe Strummer/Mick

[Guest guest]

Nanne wrote (in response to Doug):

>---------Interestingly, in the course of some

>spiritual discussions on other lists a few people now

>have encouraged me to go try out the Unitarian church

>here in town. Last time I went to a service there was

>over twenty years ago. Whenever I begin to consider

>it, I read a post like what you just wrote and am

>absolutely positive I'd end up being hounded out of

>there, what with my big wise-cracky mouth and all.

I'm sure neither of you means it, but a third party

reading your exchange might infer that one or both of

you assumes all Unitarians are the same as those

Doug has described. There are plenty of wise-cracky,

skeptical Unitarians in the world.

Jane (once again pointing out the obvious)

[Guest guest]

Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 12:49 PM

>

> --- Rakus wrote:

> >

>

> > That is a stupid thing to say. I've always loved

> > reggae...that was one of

> > the reasons that I got married in Jamaica...and no

> > one has ever refused to

> > sell me a reggae CD because I'm a white woman.

>

> ---------Oh you have? how neat! Who are some of your

> favorite bands/singers? And where in Jamaica did you

> get married? I've never been, would love to go to

> Negril, altho heat/humidity are problems for me, but I

> suppose I could enjoy the mornings and early evenings.

Bob Marley, of course. I can't think of any of his songs that I don't like

). So much current reggae is just political slogans set to music, and I'm

not very interested in that because the music is definitely a secondary

consideration. Somewhere I have a tape of a lot of different bands that we

heard when we were in Jamaica. I've never seen any of their stuff anywhere

else, but I enjoy that tape a lot. I've seen quite a few local reggae bands

that I've really enjoyed...ones that do their own music instead of just

covers of Bob Marley songs.

We got married at a resort near Ocho Rios. It was really beautiful there.

It was probably less humid in Jamaica than it usually is here in Pittsburgh

during the summer. On the coast there is always a wonderful breeze coming

in off the sea. There was a tiny little " clothing optional " island just

offshore that belonged to the resort, and that was a good place to go during

the heat of the day.

> >

> >

> > Having grown up in an area full of " white trash " , I

> > would have to admit to

> > being quite prejudiced against them.

>

> -----------That was our old neighborhood, a 10 block

> area called " Dogpatch " surrounded by ritzy suburban

> neighborhoods.

We didn't have the ritzy surrounding neighborhoods. I grew up in a tiny

little town in southeast Missouri.

> >

> > Most of the very liberal people I've known have been

> > too easily offended and

> > high-maintenance for me to be able to develop any

> > kind of relationships with

> > them. I can't allow myself to go past the level of

> > formal politeness with

> > them. I have enough trouble with people who have

> > " normal " offense levels.

> >

> > I try never to denigrate anyone based on their

> > beliefs...no matter how

> > different they are from mine. However, I'm always

> > on the lookout for faulty

> > logic, and I usually don't miss many chances to

> > point those out ;o).

> >

> >

> >

> ----------My old friend K, who was offended by my

> pointing out an individual black person was a known

> thief, I could not understand her 'logic'. Now that I

> think of it, her broad generalizations about black

> people are perhaps a kind of racism, if she is not

> viewing individuals as individuals.

> Nanne

Yeah, I'd think that would qualify as a kind of racism. People can really

just be so silly sometimes.

>

> =====

>

> " Does it mean I should take a machete? To chop my way through the path of

life? Does it mean I should run with the dog pack? Is that the way to be the

one to survive? Never need a gun says T'ai Chi, move on up to dragon snaps

his tail: All by the still water, hammer with his eye on the nail; Is the

music of grove school rock, soaked in the diesals of war boys war? Blood,

black gold and the face of a judge, is the music calling for a river of

blood?--- " Corner Soul " , , Joe Strummer/Mick

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 1:02 PM

> Rakus danced around singing:

> >Most of the very liberal people I've known have been too easily offended

and

> >high-maintenance for me to be able to develop any kind of relationships

with

> >them. I can't allow myself to go past the level of formal politeness

with

> >them. I have enough trouble with people who have " normal " offense

levels.

>

> That's interesting... I regard myself as extremely liberal, yet I'm more

> intrigued or amused than offended by conservative thinking. OTOH, I have

> to watch my step around conservatives or even centrists, because they tend

> to get all upset and often quite nasty (name-calling, etc) if I mention my

> beliefs. Especially the ones that are religious.

>

>

> DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy

>

Yeah, religion is one of those topics that can get people riled up really

fast ). I enjoy discussing religion because people tend to react very

strongly during religious discussions and are therefore easier to " read " . I

met all kinds of interesting people on a religion debate board that I

belonged to for a while.

So what kind of religious beliefs do you have that are so offensive to

conservatives and centrists? Even though I'm definitely a political

conservative, I have quite " unorthodox " religious beliefs ). I promise I

won't call you names.

[Guest guest]

Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 1:43 PM

> >

>

> > Rakus danced around singing:

> > >Most of the very liberal people I've known have been too easily

offended and

> > >high-maintenance for me to be able to develop any kind of relationships

with

> > >them. I can't allow myself to go past the level of formal politeness

with

> > >them. I have enough trouble with people who have " normal " offense

levels.

> >

> > That's interesting... I regard myself as extremely liberal, yet I'm more

> > intrigued or amused than offended by conservative thinking. OTOH, I

have

> > to watch my step around conservatives or even centrists, because they

tend

> > to get all upset and often quite nasty (name-calling, etc) if I mention

my

> > beliefs. Especially the ones that are religious.

>

> I agree with to a point, though I might not have stated it in

exactly those terms. I'm quite liberal compared to most groups in society,

but some, in particular young Unitarian-Universalists, can make me look like

a veritable right-winger (and no, I don't mean the ice hockey position by

that name).

>

> With some of them, you have to be extremely careful what jokes you make,

since even if there's no racial or otherwise prejudicial reference you can

see, they'll find something offensive about it. ( " That person isn't

stupid -- I'm sure he was just oppressed by The Man!! " ) With such people, I

often have to be quiet about some of my interests, including watching sports

and eating meat, because such things are too mainstream and I might get

yelled at for them. Around Pagans, this often takes the form of not wanting

to express my rational and skeptical viewpoints on things paranormal, since

they'd accuse me of Outdated Materialist Thinking . There is often a

one-upmanship about " I'm more liberal than you and have been to more

protests than you in the last six months! " .

>

> On the other hand, much heavily conservative thinking does piss me off,

including gems such as " your gay partnership threatens my marriage " and " my

religion is right and yours is wrong " .

>

> Doug

I've never really been able to understand those types of reactions. If

people are so convinced that they are absolutely right, then shouldn't their

opinions be able to stand up to scrutiny and criticism and the existence of

alternative ways of life? I do what works for me. Other people do what

works for them. Oddly, though, lots of those other people seem to have

chosen lives and beliefs that make them unhappy.