Guest guest Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Stuart, You have identified a great lacking in this whole situation. And I think for the same reasons and dynamics currently being illustrated on this group. There are some helpful support groups and medical organizations but because they aren't part of the giant mainstream - by definition and by money - they are often ostracized and discredited just as the individual victims are. This leaves a huge gap which has been filled by the true quacks, charlatans and snake oil salesmen. But appearances can be deceiving. Which gets to the heart, in my opinion, of several statements and implications here: Is the suffering legitimate or are all of them attempting fraud? When we encounter people we believe to be suffering and claiming mold or indoor exposure causes, what do we do? If not us, who? Can we merely refer them to " someone else " (no one) and walk away? Eliminate them with disclaimers in contracts? How do we stay in business if we try to help in these situations only to have them drain our profits? Is a different business model needed? Lot's of questions to which I don't have the answers. One last thought: If some financial institutions are " too big to allow to fail " are not some medical/scientific/insurance institutions " too big to allow to be wrong? " If so, what event will be big enough to trigger the crisis? Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- > All, > > Talking about 'mold advocates'... one of the clients Ive talked about > here recently was having problems keeping up with everything that was > going on with her house. She wasnt living there as it was making her > sick, she was moving between friends and hotels, she was recently > retired and didnt seem to have any family nearby to help her. > I was the 2nd of 3 'IAQ experts' to come thru her house and she wasnt > easily keeping up with all that was going on. What she really needed > was an advocate or project manager that would represent her interests > and keep everything straight for her. I offered to help her with that > but I wasnt too happy doing so as it could appear to be a conflict of > interest. She called me to tell me that her ins co was going to 'sort > it out' for her so that was the last I heard about it. > > So is there any group or organisation out there that can assist people > like this? Im sure this will happen more often as the population ages. > > Stuart > > > > ------------------------------------ > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2009 Report Share Posted February 17, 2009 Carl: You bring-up a very valid question, i.e., “How do we stay in business if we try to help in these situations only to have them drain our profits?” I firmly believe that there are folks that have become so very sensitized to their environment (be it mold, chemical VOCs, semi-volatile chemicals, dermal sensitizers...what-ever) that their home-environment has become “toxic” to their bodies. These folks are often desperate for a solution – moving from their home and/or abandoning all of their earthly possessions is a draconian and often damaging option (in my 30+ year career, I have only suggested this option twice). These folks may have spent their life-savings on interim remedial measures, maybe not, but, more often than not, they cannot afford professional help. And many times, the “professional” help they have previously engaged cannot (or has not) solved their dilemma. Then they are referred to one of us....the REAL professional. What are we to do? I will gladly help these folks, and do it: not for profit. But what I will not do is: free work. I cannot afford free work. My firm cannot afford free work. I want to be compensated for my time at my normal and typical fee schedule. (My family needs to eat too.) I occasionally select pro bono work efforts due to my own ethical wants to assist; but it is not for the general public home-owner – there are too many of them wanting free work. I often state that I don’t do residential work; if only to send these folks away. It happens almost monthly. Maybe it is not nice. It isn’t 100% true. But it is more respectful than saying: I don’t want your problems or to provide free services to you. I can sense a request for free work in a New York minute. So....What are we to do? There are many desperate folks out there wanting answers to their problems and want their problems fixed. They want their life back, and they cannot afford REAL professional assistance to do it. What is their alternative? (And for those that are going to reply: “The government should step-in and “fix” all of their problems.” All I have to say is BULL!...and for many reasons; which is not the tread of this post.) With the advent of the internet, these folks search and search and search, and some end-up on blogs similar to IEQuality. We see them. We hear them. We feel for them. And I shy away from them; because they want free work. Therefore....What are we to do?; because free work is for wealthy philanthropists, and I, for one, do not resemble a wealthy philanthropist. Stuart, You have identified a great lacking in this whole situation. And I think for the same reasons and dynamics currently being illustrated on this group. There are some helpful support groups and medical organizations but because they aren't part of the giant mainstream - by definition and by money - they are often ostracized and discredited just as the individual victims are. This leaves a huge gap which has been filled by the true quacks, charlatans and snake oil salesmen. But appearances can be deceiving. Which gets to the heart, in my opinion, of several statements and implications here: Is the suffering legitimate or are all of them attempting fraud? When we encounter people we believe to be suffering and claiming mold or indoor exposure causes, what do we do? If not us, who? Can we merely refer them to " someone else " (no one) and walk away? Eliminate them with disclaimers in contracts? How do we stay in business if we try to help in these situations only to have them drain our profits? Is a different business model needed? Lot's of questions to which I don't have the answers. One last thought: If some financial institutions are " too big to allow to fail " are not some medical/scientific/insurance institutions " too big to allow to be wrong? " If so, what event will be big enough to trigger the crisis? Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Don, Melinda Ballard is alive and well and still spending countless hours volunteering her time to try and help those thru this issue. There are many others too, that help. Melinda's area is homeowners insurance problems. School Mold Help, does injured teachers. Homeowners Against Deficient Dwelling and Homeowners For Better Builders does new construction mold. Sickbuildings does nurturing on the illnesses and to let people know they are not alone. Aspergillus Support does systemic illnesses from mold. There are others, too. They all loosely network to try and help the person find the right help for their specific problem. Often times, people end up with a recommendation of IEQuality members in their area from this lose network of volunteer advocates. I think all of the above named have been doing this for over a decade now. HADD is going on 20 years. It is a very difficult and emotionally draining aspect of this issue. I can't do it. It disturbs me too much to hear people pour their souls out as they describe how their lives are turned upside down and the doctors, insurers, school districts, etc are calling them liars for claiming the building has made them sick. People are like deer caught in the headlights when they first become involuntarily involved with this issue. Not to mention that many of them are experiencing neurocognitive problems at the same time. They can't remember alot. Can't stay focused. And are quick to anger/tear. (know you all have seen this "nutty behaviour") Basically, its like needing a life coach for an emergency situation. It takes a special breed - one who is strong of heart to help these people over and over again. Sharon Agreed, Carl! There probably should be a national mold victims advocacy group, to address the health and medical issues. I thought that Melinda Ballard was in the process of starting such a group, but I have not heard anything about that (or about her) for some time. Public adjustors drop the personal injury aspect, and let the lawyers handle that, because they do not have the knowledge or experience to address those types of concerns. Not that the lawyers are necessarily better equipped! But there are personal injury attorneys who are willing to take on the insurance companies on this issue. They have been somewhat successful, which is why the insurance companies dropped this coverage approximately five years ago.I think that we can discuss this a bit more in Fort Worth next week. Perhaps IAQA can assist.Don Sharon Noonan Kramer You can't always choose whom you love, but you can choose how to find them. Start with AOL Personals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Agreed, Carl! There probably should be a national mold victims advocacy group, to address the health and medical issues. I thought that Melinda Ballard was in the process of starting such a group, but I have not heard anything about that (or about her) for some time. Public adjustors drop the personal injury aspect, and let the lawyers handle that, because they do not have the knowledge or experience to address those types of concerns. Not that the lawyers are necessarily better equipped! But there are personal injury attorneys who are willing to take on the insurance companies on this issue. They have been somewhat successful, which is why the insurance companies dropped this coverage approximately five years ago. I think that we can discuss this a bit more in Fort Worth next week. Perhaps IAQA can assist. Don > > > > > > All, > > > > > > Talking about 'mold advocates'... one of the clients Ive talked > > about > > > here recently was having problems keeping up with everything that > > was > > > going on with her house. She wasnt living there as it was making > > her > > > sick, she was moving between friends and hotels, she was recently > > > retired and didnt seem to have any family nearby to help her. > > > I was the 2nd of 3 'IAQ experts' to come thru her house and she > > wasnt > > > easily keeping up with all that was going on. What she really > > needed > > > was an advocate or project manager that would represent her > > interests > > > and keep everything straight for her. I offered to help her with > > that > > > but I wasnt too happy doing so as it could appear to be a conflict > > of > > > interest. She called me to tell me that her ins co was going > > to 'sort > > > it out' for her so that was the last I heard about it. > > > > > > So is there any group or organisation out there that can assist > > people > > > like this? Im sure this will happen more often as the population > > ages. > > > > > > Stuart > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 Don, Good suggestion. We'll talk next week. If any on this group is attending I would entertain this question from the audience during the workshop Tuesday morning. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- Agreed, Carl! There probably should be a national mold victims advocacy group, to address the health and medical issues. I thought that Melinda Ballard was in the process of starting such a group, but I have not heard anything about that (or about her) for some time. Public adjustors drop the personal injury aspect, and let the lawyers handle that, because they do not have the knowledge or experience to address those types of concerns. Not that the lawyers are necessarily better equipped! But there are personal injury attorneys who are willing to take on the insurance companies on this issue. They have been somewhat successful, which is why the insurance companies dropped this coverage approximately five years ago. I think that we can discuss this a bit more in Fort Worth next week. Perhaps IAQA can assist. Don > > > > > > All, > > > > > > Talking about 'mold advocates'... one of the clients Ive talked > > about > > > here recently was having problems keeping up with everything that > > was > > > going on with her house. She wasnt living there as it was making > > her > > > sick, she was moving between friends and hotels, she was recently > > > retired and didnt seem to have any family nearby to help her. > > > I was the 2nd of 3 'IAQ experts' to come thru her house and she > > wasnt > > > easily keeping up with all that was going on. What she really > > needed > > > was an advocate or project manager that would represent her > > interests > > > and keep everything straight for her. I offered to help her with > > that > > > but I wasnt too happy doing so as it could appear to be a conflict > > of > > > interest. She called me to tell me that her ins co was going > > to 'sort > > > it out' for her so that was the last I heard about it. > > > > > > So is there any group or organisation out there that can assist > > people > > > like this? Im sure this will happen more often as the population > > ages. > > > > > > Stuart > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > FAIR USE NOTICE: > > > > This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2009 Report Share Posted February 18, 2009 , What I like about your position is that it is well reasoned and thought out as a basis for a conscious choice with awareness of the consequences of both acting and not acting. I think that is commendable and ethical and I have no argument despite the fact my choices are often different than yours. Why is this not arguable? It acknowledges the suffering as real but you made a choice. You aren't excusing your choice based on an adamant belief they are fakers or frauds. It isn't an argument denying anyone's reality, or claiming it can't be real because science hasn't (yet)figured it out or for any other reason. It isn't disrespectful to anyone. Perhaps your response could be a template for the rest of us. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- Carl: You bring-up a very valid question, i.e., “How do we stay in business if we try to help in these situations only to have them drain our profits?” I firmly believe that there are folks that have become so very sensitized to their environment (be it mold, chemical VOCs, semi-volatile chemicals, dermal sensitizers...what-ever) that their home-environment has become “toxic” to their bodies. These folks are often desperate for a solution – moving from their home and/or abandoning all of their earthly possessions is a draconian and often damaging option (in my 30+ year career, I have only suggested this option twice). These folks may have spent their life-savings on interim remedial measures, maybe not, but, more often than not, they cannot afford professional help. And many times, the “professional” help they have previously engaged cannot (or has not) solved their dilemma. Then they are referred to one of us....the REAL professional. What are we to do? I will gladly help these folks, and do it: not for profit. But what I will not do is: free work. I cannot afford free work. My firm cannot afford free work. I want to be compensated for my time at my normal and typical fee schedule. (My family needs to eat too.) I occasionally select pro bono work efforts due to my own ethical wants to assist; but it is not for the general public home-owner – there are too many of them wanting free work. I often state that I don’t do residential work; if only to send these folks away. It happens almost monthly. Maybe it is not nice. It isn’t 100% true. But it is more respectful than saying: I don’t want your problems or to provide free services to you. I can sense a request for free work in a New York minute. So....What are we to do? There are many desperate folks out there wanting answers to their problems and want their problems fixed. They want their life back, and they cannot afford REAL professional assistance to do it. What is their alternative? (And for those that are going to reply: “The government should step-in and “fix” all of their problems.” All I have to say is BULL!...and for many reasons; which is not the tread of this post.) With the advent of the internet, these folks search and search and search, and some end-up on blogs similar to IEQuality. We see them. We hear them. We feel for them. And I shy away from them; because they want free work. Therefore....What are we to do?; because free work is for wealthy philanthropists, and I, for one, do not resemble a wealthy philanthropist. This message sent using Spam Arrest Confirmed Delivery!Visit http://www.spamarrest.com/ and Take Control of Your Inbox® Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 It has gotten to the point that I have to hide my "free consulting" over the phone from my girlfriend who knows what I should really be doing with my time. I totally appreciate and respect 's right to choose who he wants to help when the people aren't and will never be clients. I find it hard to not help people when you have the knowledge to help them and others don't. But it's no way to run a business. Steve Temes , What I like about your position is that it is well reasoned and thought out as a basis for a conscious choice with awareness of the consequences of both acting and not acting. I think that is commendable and ethical and I have no argument despite the fact my choices are often different than yours. Why is this not arguable? It acknowledges the suffering as real but you made a choice. You aren't excusing your choice based on an adamant belief they are fakers or frauds. It isn't an argument denying anyone's reality, or claiming it can't be real because science hasn't (yet)figured it out or for any other reason. It isn't disrespectful to anyone. Perhaps your response could be a template for the rest of us. Carl Grimes Healthy Habitats LLC ----- Carl: You bring-up a very valid question, i.e., “How do we stay in business if we try to help in these situations only to have them drain our profits?†I firmly believe that there are folks that have become so very sensitized to their environment (be it mold, chemical VOCs, semi-volatile chemicals, dermal sensitizers...what-ever) that their home-environment has become “toxic†to their bodies. These folks are often desperate for a solution – moving from their home and/or abandoning all of their earthly possessions is a draconian and often damaging option (in my 30+ year career, I have only suggested this option twice). These folks may have spent their life-savings on interim remedial measures, maybe not, but, more often than not, they cannot afford professional help. And many times, the “professional†help they have previously engaged cannot (or has not) solved their dilemma. Then they are referred to one of us....the REAL professional. What are we to do? I will gladly help these folks, and do it: not for profit. But what I will not do is: free work. I cannot afford free work. My firm cannot afford free work. I want to be compensated for my time at my normal and typical fee schedule. (My family needs to eat too.) I occasionally select pro bono work efforts due to my own ethical wants to assist; but it is not for the general public home-owner – there are too many of them wanting free work. I often state that I don’t do residential work; if only to send these folks away. It happens almost monthly. Maybe it is not nice. It isn’t 100% true. But it is more respectful than saying: I don’t want your problems or to provide free services to you. I can sense a request for free work in a New York minute. So....What are we to do? There are many desperate folks out there wanting answers to their problems and want their problems fixed. They want their life back, and they cannot afford REAL professional assistance to do it. What is their alternative? (And for those that are going to reply: “The government should step-in and “fix†all of their problems.†All I have to say is BULL!...and for many reasons; which is not the tread of this post.) With the advent of the internet, these folks search and search and search, and some end-up on blogs similar to IEQuality. We see them. We hear them. We feel for them. And I shy away from them; because they want free work. Therefore....What are we to do?; because free work is for wealthy philanthropists, and I, for one, do not resemble a wealthy philanthropist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 You bring up a good point about being able to afford to help people out. Here's something Ive been thinking about for a while now... When I did the HHS class all the other attendees were housing rehab guys and it brought home to me how I was only seeing one part of the pop'n in my clients. There was a whole group of people that couldnt afford my/our services. These rehab people dealt with a whole group I never saw. It made me think. I am facing possible unemployment in the near future. Certainly underemployment. I am sure there are many people in our industry facing the same challenges. Of course I will be trying to find work and pay the bills and I have plenty of home repair jobs to keep me busy (mold in my own crawlspace for starters). But the reality is that I will have significant spare time on my hands. I will also have all this knowledge, ability, equipment, etc, sitting unused. I plan on trying to find a way through some other entity to put my skills to use and help people out that might not otherwise be able to afford an 'IEQ professional'. I can only do so much on my own but surely organisations such as IAQA, NADCA, ASHRAE, IICRC, etc could reach out to their collective unemployed membership and 'recruit' them as a pro- bono workforce. Habitat gets volunteers to build new houses but our skills migth be better directed at rehab'ing substandard housing. My problem with my plan is I dont know where to go to offer my services. National organisations such as I mentioned would have other groups approaching them for assistance once the word got out. We are all gonna suffer during this economic recession so we might as well try and help each other out if we have the time. Stuart > > > > > > > > > Stuart, > > > > You have identified a great lacking in this whole situation. And I think for > > the same reasons and dynamics currently being illustrated on this group. > > > > There are some helpful support groups and medical organizations but because > > they aren't part of the giant mainstream - by definition and by money - they > > are often ostracized and discredited just as the individual victims are. > > > > This leaves a huge gap which has been filled by the true quacks, charlatans > > and snake oil salesmen. But appearances can be deceiving. > > > > Which gets to the heart, in my opinion, of several statements and implications > > here: Is the suffering legitimate or are all of them attempting fraud? When we > > encounter people we believe to be suffering and claiming mold or indoor > > exposure causes, what do we do? > > > > If not us, who? Can we merely refer them to " someone else " (no one) and walk > > away? Eliminate them with disclaimers in contracts? How do we stay in business > > if we try to help in these situations only to have them drain our profits? Is > > a different business model needed? Lot's of questions to which I don't have > > the answers. > > > > One last thought: If some financial institutions are " too big to allow to > > fail " are not some medical/scientific/insurance institutions " too big to allow > > to be wrong? " If so, what event will be big enough to trigger the crisis? > > > > Carl Grimes > > Healthy Habitats LLC > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 Thanks, Sharon, for the update on Melinda Ballard. I was the MC for a session at the 2006 AIHce that she was a part of. It was an interesting session, and I enjoyed her enthusiasm for her topics. If you are in touch with her, please say 'hi' for me. Perhaps IAQA and her advocacy groups can correspond on issues of commonality. Thanks, again! Don > > > > Don, > > Melinda Ballard is alive and well and still spending countless hours > volunteering her time to try and help those thru this issue. There are many others > too, that help. Melinda's area is homeowners insurance problems. School Mold > Help, does injured teachers. Homeowners Against Deficient Dwelling and > Homeowners For Better Builders does new construction mold. Sickbuildings does > nurturing on the illnesses and to let people know they are not alone. Aspergillus > Support does systemic illnesses from mold. There are others, too. > > They all loosely network to try and help the person find the right help for > their specific problem. Often times, people end up with a recommendation of > IEQuality members in their area from this lose network of volunteer advocates. > I think all of the above named have been doing this for over a decade now. > HADD is going on 20 years. > > It is a very difficult and emotionally draining aspect of this issue. I > can't do it. It disturbs me too much to hear people pour their souls out as they > describe how their lives are turned upside down and the doctors, insurers, > school districts, etc are calling them liars for claiming the building has > made them sick. > > People are like deer caught in the headlights when they first become > involuntarily involved with this issue. Not to mention that many of them are > experiencing neurocognitive problems at the same time. They can't remember alot. > Can't stay focused. And are quick to anger/tear. (know you all have seen this > " nutty behaviour " ) > > Basically, its like needing a life coach for an emergency situation. It > takes a special breed - one who is strong of heart to help these people over and > over again. > > Sharon > > > In a message dated 2/18/2009 8:35:41 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, > don.weekes@... writes: > > > > > Agreed, Carl! There probably should be a national mold victims > advocacy group, to address the health and medical issues. I thought > that Melinda Ballard was in the process of starting such a group, but > I have not heard anything about that (or about her) for some time. > > Public adjustors drop the personal injury aspect, and let the lawyers > handle that, because they do not have the knowledge or experience to > address those types of concerns. Not that the lawyers are > necessarily better equipped! But there are personal injury > attorneys who are willing to take on the insurance companies on this > issue. They have been somewhat successful, which is why the > insurance companies dropped this coverage approximately five years > ago. > > I think that we can discuss this a bit more in Fort Worth next week. > Perhaps IAQA can assist. > > Don > > > > > > > > > Sharon Noonan Kramer > **************You can't always choose whom you love, but you can choose how > to find them. Start with AOL Personals. > (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove00000002) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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