Re: Obesity linked to mix of bacteria in digestive tract

December 21, 2006

Here's some interesting information on Fermicutes, the gut bacteria

linked to obesity (from Wikipedia).

The Firmicutes are a division of bacteria, most of which have Gram-

positive cell wall structure. A few, the Mollicutes or mycoplasmas,

lack cell walls altogether and so do not respond to Gram staining,

but still lack the second membrane found in other Gram-negative

forms.

The group is typically divided into the Clostridia, which are

anaerobic, the Bacilli, which are obligate or facultative aerobes,

and the Mollicutes. On molecular trees the first two groups show up

as paraphyletic or polyphyletic, as do their main genera, Clostridium

and Bacillus. It is likely these groups will undergo revision.

While there are currently more than 274 genera within the Firmicutes

phylum, Notable genera of Firmicutes include:

Bacilli, order Bacillales

Bacillus

Listeria

Staphylococcus

Bacilli, order Lactobacillales

Enterococcus

Lactobacillus

Lactococcus

Leuconostoc

Pectinatus

Pediococcus

Streptococcus

Clostridia

Acetobacterium

Clostridium

Eubacterium

Heliobacterium

Heliospirillum

Sporomusa

Mollicutes

Mycoplasma

Spiroplasma

Ureaplasma

Erysipelothrix

Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmicutes "

Happy HOlidays!

Vickie

>

> Obesity linked to Mix of bacteria in digestive tract. - a Carnes

>

> One woman's editorial reply:

>

> " This is very interesting. Three months ago, my husband, a poorly

controlled

> diabetic, had back surgery. He then contracted a hospital-borne

infection

> and received long term Vancomycin therapy. Both his weight and his

blood

> sugar levals declined precipitously to the point that he has

greatly reduced

> his insulin and has to be very careful about low blood sugars,

which were

> not previously a problem. Could this be relavent? "

>

> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/?nav=pf> washingtonpost.com

>

> Research Links Obesity to Mix of Bacteria in Digestive Tract

>

> By Rob Stein

> Washington Post Staff Writer

> Thursday, December 21, 2006; A12

>

> Obese people have a distinctive mix of bacteria in their digestive

systems

> that seems to make them prone to gaining weight, a startling

discovery that

> could lead to new ways to fight the obesity epidemic, researchers

reported

> yesterday.

>

> Obese people have more digestive microbes that are especially

efficient at

> extracting calories from food, the researchers said, and the

proportion of

> these super-digesting organisms ebbs as the people lose weight.

Moreover,

> when the scientists transplanted these bacteria from obese mice

into lean

> mice, the thin animals start getting fat. This provides more

support for the

> provocative theory that the bacteria that populate the intestine

play an

> important role in regulating weight.

>

> " There appears to be a link between obesity and the type of bugs in

your

> gut, " said I. Gordon of Washington University School of

Medicine in

> St. Louis, who led the series of experiments being published in

today's

> issue of the journal Nature. " The difference in the structure of

microbial

> ecology of our gut may set us up for susceptibility to obesity. "

>

> Gordon and his colleagues stressed that more work is needed to

explore the

> findings. And they cautioned against trying to manipulate " gut

flora " with

> antibiotics or microbial " probiotic " pills sold in health-food

stores. But

> if the findings are confirmed and better understood, they could

lead to

> profound new insights into one of the nation's biggest health

problems, the

> researchers said.

>

> " In the future, we could potentially manipulate the structure and

function

> of these microbial societies as a new approach toward preventing and

> treating obesity, " Gordon said.

>

> The findings produced enthusiasm and caution from other

researchers. Some

> praised the work for possibly offering a long-sought alternative

explanation

> for the obesity epidemic. Perhaps some change, such as a food

additive or

> antibiotic use, has caused a fundamental shift in gut flora, making

it

> easier for many people to gain weight.

>

> " This is very exciting, " said Barbara Corkey, an obesity researcher

at

> Boston University. " We don't know why the obesity epidemic is

happening.

> People say it's because of gluttony and sloth. I think there must be

> something else. It's exciting to see some work being done on

alternative

> explanations. "

>

> Others suspect that if gut microbes do play a role, it is a minor

one.

>

> " This is extremely interesting, " said Hans-Rudolf Berthoud of the

Pennington

> Biomedical Research Center in Baton Rouge. " But lifestyle and the

> environment are still the major factors in the obesity epidemic. "

>

> On a broader level, the findings highlight the symbiotic

relationship humans

> maintain with the trillions of microorganisms that populate our

bodies,

> Gordon and others said.

>

> " This strengthens the notion that the indigenous organisms in the

human body

> are probably intimately involved in our health, " said A.

Relman of

> Stanford University. " The ways they are involved remain unclear,

but this

> underscores the idea that it behooves us to figure it out. "

>

> Scientists have long known that the human body is teeming with

germs,

> primarily bacteria, which cover the skin and inhabit every orifice.

By some

> estimates only one out of every 10 cells in the human body is

human. These

> organisms perform a host of functions, especially in the digestive

tract,

> where they help digest food.

>

> " There's growing interest in the idea that humans are more than

just human

> cells, " said Jack Blaser of New York University. " These

cells are not

> just passengers. They are part of the human metabolism. "

>

> To explore the role of the organisms in weight regulation, Gordon's

team

> first compared the gut flora of 12 obese people to lean subjects'.

The obese

> tended to have a significantly greater proportion of one of the two

main

> types of bacteria found in the gut, known as Firmicutes, than the

other,

> known as Bacteroidetes.

>

> Next, the researchers spent a year meticulously measuring the gut

flora of

> the obese volunteers as they tried to lose weight by eating low-

calorie

> diets that restricted either their fat or carbohydrate intake. As

volunteers

> lost weight, the proportion of Firmicutes in their digestive tracts

fell and

> the proportion of Bacteroidetes rose, the researchers found.

>

> When the researchers conducted detailed molecular analyses of the

two types

> of bacteria in the laboratory, they discovered the Firmicutes were

much

> better at extracting calories from food.

>

> Moreover, when the researchers examined the gut flora of obese

laboratory

> mice, they found a similar pattern in their ratios of Firmicutes to

> Bacteroidetes. And when researchers transferred gut flora from

obese mice to

> mice devoid of gut flora, the recipient animals tended to gain

weight,

> confirming that the pattern was associated with weight gain.

>

> " This attribute of being able to harvest and store more energy

appeared to

> be transmissible, " Gordon said. " For the first time, we see that

there is a

> correlation between the microbial gut ecology and the obese state. "

>

> Among other things, the findings could help explain why it becomes

harder

> and harder to lose weight as people get fat, Gordon said.

>

> " That's part of the pathology of obesity. When you shift the amount

of fat

> tissue, the amount of energy you can harvest becomes somewhat

greater, and

> that's going to fuel the obese state, " he said.

>

> The researchers acknowledged that the difference in the number of

calories

> extracted by the microbes is relatively small. But over time even a

small

> differential could be significant, they said.

>

> Many questions remain, however. It is unclear what determines the

make-up of

> a person's gut flora. It might be the microbes they pick up from

their

> mothers; it might be their exposure to antibiotics. It is also

unclear how

> fat tissue and gut flora might affect one another, and whether the

change in

> gut bacteria causes or is a result of the weight loss.

>

> Despite those and other questions, scientists said the findings are

sure to

> inspire more investigation.

>

> " They open up a completely new hypothesis, " said Randy Seeley, an

obesity

> researcher at the University of Cincinnati who wrote a commentary

> accompanying the research. " There are a lot of hurdles here that we

have to

> deal with in terms of our basic understanding. But it's

fascinating. "

>

> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-

dyn/content/article/2006/12/20/http://stat

> s.surfaid.ihost.com/crc/images/uc.GIF?1.13 & wpost & wpost & noscript>

>

> <http://stats.surfaid.ihost.com/crc/images/uc.GIF?

1.13 & wpost & wpost & noscript>

>

December 21, 2006

PAula

Did you buy that he contracted an infection, or like I believe, his

back surgery was due to an INFECTION.The fact that they used GRAM

POSITIVE DRUGS and cleared a considerable amount of his INFLAMMATION

may prompt you to start looking seriously at WHAT " S THERE when your

trying to get a diagnosis instead of pushing your pet pathogens to

the fore whenever the oppurtunity arises.

My two cents worth..

tony

>

> Obesity linked to Mix of bacteria in digestive tract. - a Carnes

>

> One woman's editorial reply:

>

> " This is very interesting. Three months ago, my husband, a poorly

controlled

> diabetic, had back surgery. He then contracted a hospital-borne

infection

> and received long term Vancomycin therapy. Both his weight and his

blood

> sugar levals declined precipitously to the point that he has

greatly reduced

> his insulin and has to be very careful about low blood sugars,

which were

> not previously a problem. Could this be relavent? "

>

> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/?nav=pf> washingtonpost.com

>

> Research Links Obesity to Mix of Bacteria in Digestive Tract

>

> By Rob Stein

> Washington Post Staff Writer

> Thursday, December 21, 2006; A12

>

> Obese people have a distinctive mix of bacteria in their digestive

systems

> that seems to make them prone to gaining weight, a startling

discovery that

> could lead to new ways to fight the obesity epidemic, researchers

reported

> yesterday.

>

> Obese people have more digestive microbes that are especially

efficient at

> extracting calories from food, the researchers said, and the

proportion of

> these super-digesting organisms ebbs as the people lose weight.

Moreover,

> when the scientists transplanted these bacteria from obese mice

into lean

> mice, the thin animals start getting fat. This provides more

support for the

> provocative theory that the bacteria that populate the intestine

play an

> important role in regulating weight.

>

> " There appears to be a link between obesity and the type of bugs in

your

> gut, " said I. Gordon of Washington University School of

Medicine in

> St. Louis, who led the series of experiments being published in

today's

> issue of the journal Nature. " The difference in the structure of

microbial

> ecology of our gut may set us up for susceptibility to obesity. "

>

> Gordon and his colleagues stressed that more work is needed to

explore the

> findings. And they cautioned against trying to manipulate " gut

flora " with

> antibiotics or microbial " probiotic " pills sold in health-food

stores. But

> if the findings are confirmed and better understood, they could

lead to

> profound new insights into one of the nation's biggest health

problems, the

> researchers said.

>

> " In the future, we could potentially manipulate the structure and

function

> of these microbial societies as a new approach toward preventing and

> treating obesity, " Gordon said.

>

> The findings produced enthusiasm and caution from other

researchers. Some

> praised the work for possibly offering a long-sought alternative

explanation

> for the obesity epidemic. Perhaps some change, such as a food

additive or

> antibiotic use, has caused a fundamental shift in gut flora, making

it

> easier for many people to gain weight.

>

> " This is very exciting, " said Barbara Corkey, an obesity researcher

at

> Boston University. " We don't know why the obesity epidemic is

happening.

> People say it's because of gluttony and sloth. I think there must be

> something else. It's exciting to see some work being done on

alternative

> explanations. "

>

> Others suspect that if gut microbes do play a role, it is a minor

one.

>

> " This is extremely interesting, " said Hans-Rudolf Berthoud of the

Pennington

> Biomedical Research Center in Baton Rouge. " But lifestyle and the

> environment are still the major factors in the obesity epidemic. "

>

> On a broader level, the findings highlight the symbiotic

relationship humans

> maintain with the trillions of microorganisms that populate our

bodies,

> Gordon and others said.

>

> " This strengthens the notion that the indigenous organisms in the

human body

> are probably intimately involved in our health, " said A.

Relman of

> Stanford University. " The ways they are involved remain unclear,

but this

> underscores the idea that it behooves us to figure it out. "

>

> Scientists have long known that the human body is teeming with

germs,

> primarily bacteria, which cover the skin and inhabit every orifice.

By some

> estimates only one out of every 10 cells in the human body is

human. These

> organisms perform a host of functions, especially in the digestive

tract,

> where they help digest food.

>

> " There's growing interest in the idea that humans are more than

just human

> cells, " said Jack Blaser of New York University. " These

cells are not

> just passengers. They are part of the human metabolism. "

>

> To explore the role of the organisms in weight regulation, Gordon's

team

> first compared the gut flora of 12 obese people to lean subjects'.

The obese

> tended to have a significantly greater proportion of one of the two

main

> types of bacteria found in the gut, known as Firmicutes, than the

other,

> known as Bacteroidetes.

>

> Next, the researchers spent a year meticulously measuring the gut

flora of

> the obese volunteers as they tried to lose weight by eating low-

calorie

> diets that restricted either their fat or carbohydrate intake. As

volunteers

> lost weight, the proportion of Firmicutes in their digestive tracts

fell and

> the proportion of Bacteroidetes rose, the researchers found.

>

> When the researchers conducted detailed molecular analyses of the

two types

> of bacteria in the laboratory, they discovered the Firmicutes were

much

> better at extracting calories from food.

>

> Moreover, when the researchers examined the gut flora of obese

laboratory

> mice, they found a similar pattern in their ratios of Firmicutes to

> Bacteroidetes. And when researchers transferred gut flora from

obese mice to

> mice devoid of gut flora, the recipient animals tended to gain

weight,

> confirming that the pattern was associated with weight gain.

>

> " This attribute of being able to harvest and store more energy

appeared to

> be transmissible, " Gordon said. " For the first time, we see that

there is a

> correlation between the microbial gut ecology and the obese state. "

>

> Among other things, the findings could help explain why it becomes

harder

> and harder to lose weight as people get fat, Gordon said.

>

> " That's part of the pathology of obesity. When you shift the amount

of fat

> tissue, the amount of energy you can harvest becomes somewhat

greater, and

> that's going to fuel the obese state, " he said.

>

> The researchers acknowledged that the difference in the number of

calories

> extracted by the microbes is relatively small. But over time even a

small

> differential could be significant, they said.

>

> Many questions remain, however. It is unclear what determines the

make-up of

> a person's gut flora. It might be the microbes they pick up from

their

> mothers; it might be their exposure to antibiotics. It is also

unclear how

> fat tissue and gut flora might affect one another, and whether the

change in

> gut bacteria causes or is a result of the weight loss.

>

> Despite those and other questions, scientists said the findings are

sure to

> inspire more investigation.

>

> " They open up a completely new hypothesis, " said Randy Seeley, an

obesity

> researcher at the University of Cincinnati who wrote a commentary

> accompanying the research. " There are a lot of hurdles here that we

have to

> deal with in terms of our basic understanding. But it's

fascinating. "

>

> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-

dyn/content/article/2006/12/20/http://stat

> s.surfaid.ihost.com/crc/images/uc.GIF?1.13 & wpost & wpost & noscript>

>

> <http://stats.surfaid.ihost.com/crc/images/uc.GIF?

1.13 & wpost & wpost & noscript>

>

December 21, 2006

This is not really big news to those of us that take

antibiotics orally. I ALWAYS get hungry for sugar and

carbs when my candida count is up. I take diflucan,

nystatin and go total abstinent on carbs and the

craving goes down. It is a real battle though. The

craving for carbs is intense.

Marie

--- a Carnes <pj7@...> wrote:

> Obesity linked to Mix of bacteria in digestive

> tract. - a Carnes

>

> One woman's editorial reply:

>

> " This is very interesting. Three months ago, my

> husband, a poorly controlled

> diabetic, had back surgery. He then contracted a

> hospital-borne infection

> and received long term Vancomycin therapy. Both his

> weight and his blood

> sugar levals declined precipitously to the point

> that he has greatly reduced

> his insulin and has to be very careful about low

> blood sugars, which were

> not previously a problem. Could this be relavent? "

>

> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/?nav=pf>

> washingtonpost.com

>

> Research Links Obesity to Mix of Bacteria in

> Digestive Tract

>

> By Rob Stein

> Washington Post Staff Writer

> Thursday, December 21, 2006; A12

>

> Obese people have a distinctive mix of bacteria in

> their digestive systems

> that seems to make them prone to gaining weight, a

> startling discovery that

> could lead to new ways to fight the obesity

> epidemic, researchers reported

> yesterday.

>

> Obese people have more digestive microbes that are

> especially efficient at

> extracting calories from food, the researchers said,

> and the proportion of

> these super-digesting organisms ebbs as the people

> lose weight. Moreover,

> when the scientists transplanted these bacteria from

> obese mice into lean

> mice, the thin animals start getting fat. This

> provides more support for the

> provocative theory that the bacteria that populate

> the intestine play an

> important role in regulating weight.

>

> " There appears to be a link between obesity and the

> type of bugs in your

> gut, " said I. Gordon of Washington

> University School of Medicine in

> St. Louis, who led the series of experiments being

> published in today's

> issue of the journal Nature. " The difference in the

> structure of microbial

> ecology of our gut may set us up for susceptibility

> to obesity. "

>

> Gordon and his colleagues stressed that more work is

> needed to explore the

> findings. And they cautioned against trying to

> manipulate " gut flora " with

> antibiotics or microbial " probiotic " pills sold in

> health-food stores. But

> if the findings are confirmed and better understood,

> they could lead to

> profound new insights into one of the nation's

> biggest health problems, the

> researchers said.

>

> " In the future, we could potentially manipulate the

> structure and function

> of these microbial societies as a new approach

> toward preventing and

> treating obesity, " Gordon said.

>

> The findings produced enthusiasm and caution from

> other researchers. Some

> praised the work for possibly offering a long-sought

> alternative explanation

> for the obesity epidemic. Perhaps some change, such

> as a food additive or

> antibiotic use, has caused a fundamental shift in

> gut flora, making it

> easier for many people to gain weight.

>

> " This is very exciting, " said Barbara Corkey, an

> obesity researcher at

> Boston University. " We don't know why the obesity

> epidemic is happening.

> People say it's because of gluttony and sloth. I

> think there must be

> something else. It's exciting to see some work being

> done on alternative

> explanations. "

>

> Others suspect that if gut microbes do play a role,

> it is a minor one.

>

> " This is extremely interesting, " said Hans-Rudolf

> Berthoud of the Pennington

> Biomedical Research Center in Baton Rouge. " But

> lifestyle and the

> environment are still the major factors in the

> obesity epidemic. "

>

> On a broader level, the findings highlight the

> symbiotic relationship humans

> maintain with the trillions of microorganisms that

> populate our bodies,

> Gordon and others said.

>

> " This strengthens the notion that the indigenous

> organisms in the human body

> are probably intimately involved in our health, "

> said A. Relman of

> Stanford University. " The ways they are involved

> remain unclear, but this

> underscores the idea that it behooves us to figure

> it out. "

>

> Scientists have long known that the human body is

> teeming with germs,

> primarily bacteria, which cover the skin and inhabit

> every orifice. By some

> estimates only one out of every 10 cells in the

> human body is human. These

> organisms perform a host of functions, especially in

> the digestive tract,

> where they help digest food.

>

> " There's growing interest in the idea that humans

> are more than just human

> cells, " said Jack Blaser of New York

> University. " These cells are not

> just passengers. They are part of the human

> metabolism. "

>

> To explore the role of the organisms in weight

> regulation, Gordon's team

> first compared the gut flora of 12 obese people to

> lean subjects'. The obese

> tended to have a significantly greater proportion of

> one of the two main

> types of bacteria found in the gut, known as

> Firmicutes, than the other,

> known as Bacteroidetes.

>

> Next, the researchers spent a year meticulously

> measuring the gut flora of

> the obese volunteers as they tried to lose weight by

> eating low-calorie

> diets that restricted either their fat or

> carbohydrate intake. As volunteers

> lost weight, the proportion of Firmicutes in their

> digestive tracts fell and

> the proportion of Bacteroidetes rose, the

> researchers found.

>

> When the researchers conducted detailed molecular

> analyses of the two types

> of bacteria in the laboratory, they discovered the

> Firmicutes were much

> better at extracting calories from food.

>

> Moreover, when the researchers examined the gut

> flora of obese laboratory

> mice, they found a similar pattern in their ratios

> of Firmicutes to

> Bacteroidetes. And when researchers transferred gut

> flora from obese mice to

> mice devoid of gut flora, the recipient animals

> tended to gain weight,

> confirming that the pattern was associated with

> weight gain.

>

> " This attribute of being able to harvest and store

> more energy appeared to

> be transmissible, " Gordon said. " For the first time,

> we see that there is a

> correlation between the microbial gut ecology and

> the obese state. "

>

> Among other things, the findings could help explain

> why it becomes harder

> and harder to lose weight as people get fat, Gordon

> said.

>

> " That's part of the pathology of obesity. When you

> shift the amount of fat

> tissue, the amount of energy you can harvest becomes

> somewhat greater, and

> that's going to fuel the obese state, " he said.

>

> The researchers acknowledged that the difference in

> the

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________

December 22, 2006

Marie, Have you tried Chromium supplementation? I've found that after about a week or two on chromium, my carb cravings are gone! And there are studies out there that show chromium can treat diabetes, too, so it definitely seems to have some kind of impact on glucose/carbohydrate metabolism. penny Marie Mayberry <msmabrry@...> wrote: This is not really big news to those of us that takeantibiotics orally. I

ALWAYS get hungry for sugar andcarbs when my candida count is up. I take diflucan,nystatin and go total abstinent on carbs and thecraving goes down. It is a real battle though. Thecraving for carbs is intense. Marie--- a Carnes <pj7@...> wrote:> Obesity linked to Mix of bacteria in digestive> tract. - a Carnes> > One woman's editorial reply:> > "This is very interesting. Three months ago, my> husband, a poorly controlled> diabetic, had back surgery. He then contracted a> hospital-borne infection> and received long term Vancomycin therapy. Both his> weight and his blood> sugar levals declined precipitously to the point> that he has greatly reduced> his insulin and has to be very careful about low> blood sugars, which were> not previously a problem. Could this be relavent?">

> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/?nav=pf>> washingtonpost.com > > Research Links Obesity to Mix of Bacteria in> Digestive Tract> > > By Rob Stein> Washington Post Staff Writer> Thursday, December 21, 2006; A12> > > > > Obese people have a distinctive mix of bacteria in> their digestive systems> that seems to make them prone to gaining weight, a> startling discovery that> could lead to new ways to fight the obesity> epidemic, researchers reported> yesterday.> > Obese people have more digestive microbes that are> especially efficient at> extracting calories from food, the researchers said,> and the proportion of> these super-digesting organisms ebbs as the people> lose weight. Moreover,> when the

scientists transplanted these bacteria from> obese mice into lean> mice, the thin animals start getting fat. This> provides more support for the> provocative theory that the bacteria that populate> the intestine play an> important role in regulating weight.> > "There appears to be a link between obesity and the> type of bugs in your> gut," said I. Gordon of Washington> University School of Medicine in> St. Louis, who led the series of experiments being> published in today's> issue of the journal Nature. "The difference in the> structure of microbial> ecology of our gut may set us up for susceptibility> to obesity."> > Gordon and his colleagues stressed that more work is> needed to explore the> findings. And they cautioned against trying to> manipulate "gut flora" with> antibiotics or microbial "probiotic"

pills sold in> health-food stores. But> if the findings are confirmed and better understood,> they could lead to> profound new insights into one of the nation's> biggest health problems, the> researchers said.> > "In the future, we could potentially manipulate the> structure and function> of these microbial societies as a new approach> toward preventing and> treating obesity," Gordon said.> > The findings produced enthusiasm and caution from> other researchers. Some> praised the work for possibly offering a long-sought> alternative explanation> for the obesity epidemic. Perhaps some change, such> as a food additive or> antibiotic use, has caused a fundamental shift in> gut flora, making it> easier for many people to gain weight.> > "This is very exciting," said Barbara Corkey, an> obesity researcher

at> Boston University. "We don't know why the obesity> epidemic is happening.> People say it's because of gluttony and sloth. I> think there must be> something else. It's exciting to see some work being> done on alternative> explanations."> > Others suspect that if gut microbes do play a role,> it is a minor one.> > "This is extremely interesting," said Hans-Rudolf> Berthoud of the Pennington> Biomedical Research Center in Baton Rouge. "But> lifestyle and the> environment are still the major factors in the> obesity epidemic."> > On a broader level, the findings highlight the> symbiotic relationship humans> maintain with the trillions of microorganisms that> populate our bodies,> Gordon and others said.> > "This strengthens the notion that the indigenous> organisms in the human

body> are probably intimately involved in our health,"> said A. Relman of> Stanford University. "The ways they are involved> remain unclear, but this> underscores the idea that it behooves us to figure> it out."> > Scientists have long known that the human body is> teeming with germs,> primarily bacteria, which cover the skin and inhabit> every orifice. By some> estimates only one out of every 10 cells in the> human body is human. These> organisms perform a host of functions, especially in> the digestive tract,> where they help digest food.> > "There's growing interest in the idea that humans> are more than just human> cells," said Jack Blaser of New York> University. "These cells are not> just passengers. They are part of the human> metabolism."> > To explore the role of the organisms in

weight> regulation, Gordon's team> first compared the gut flora of 12 obese people to> lean subjects'. The obese> tended to have a significantly greater proportion of> one of the two main> types of bacteria found in the gut, known as> Firmicutes, than the other,> known as Bacteroidetes.> > Next, the researchers spent a year meticulously> measuring the gut flora of> the obese volunteers as they tried to lose weight by> eating low-calorie> diets that restricted either their fat or> carbohydrate intake. As volunteers> lost weight, the proportion of Firmicutes in their> digestive tracts fell and> the proportion of Bacteroidetes rose, the> researchers found.> > When the researchers conducted detailed molecular> analyses of the two types> of bacteria in the laboratory, they discovered the> Firmicutes were

much> better at extracting calories from food.> > Moreover, when the researchers examined the gut> flora of obese laboratory> mice, they found a similar pattern in their ratios> of Firmicutes to> Bacteroidetes. And when researchers transferred gut> flora from obese mice to> mice devoid of gut flora, the recipient animals> tended to gain weight,> confirming that the pattern was associated with> weight gain.> > "This attribute of being able to harvest and store> more energy appeared to> be transmissible," Gordon said. "For the first time,> we see that there is a> correlation between the microbial gut ecology and> the obese state."> > Among other things, the findings could help explain> why it becomes harder> and harder to lose weight as people get fat, Gordon> said.> > "That's part of the

pathology of obesity. When you> shift the amount of fat> tissue, the amount of energy you can harvest becomes> somewhat greater, and> that's going to fuel the obese state," he said.> > The researchers acknowledged that the difference in> the === message truncated ===__________________________________________________

December 22, 2006

Tony, the operative word here was obesity. Would gram positive drugs

lower the Firmicutes bacteria? What else would lower them?

a Carnes

>

> PAula

> Did you buy that he contracted an infection, or like I believe, his

> back surgery was due to an INFECTION.The fact that they used GRAM

> POSITIVE DRUGS and cleared a considerable amount of his

INFLAMMATION

> may prompt you to start looking seriously at WHAT " S THERE when your

> trying to get a diagnosis instead of pushing your pet pathogens to

> the fore whenever the oppurtunity arises.

> My two cents worth..

> tony

>

> >

> > Obesity linked to Mix of bacteria in digestive tract. - a

Carnes

> >

> > One woman's editorial reply:

> >

> > " This is very interesting. Three months ago, my husband, a poorly

> controlled

> > diabetic, had back surgery. He then contracted a hospital-borne

> infection

> > and received long term Vancomycin therapy. Both his weight and

his

> blood

> > sugar levals declined precipitously to the point that he has

> greatly reduced

> > his insulin and has to be very careful about low blood sugars,

> which were

> > not previously a problem. Could this be relavent? "

> >

> > <http://www.washingtonpost.com/?nav=pf> washingtonpost.com

> >

> > Research Links Obesity to Mix of Bacteria in Digestive Tract

> >

> > By Rob Stein

> > Washington Post Staff Writer

> > Thursday, December 21, 2006; A12

> >

> > Obese people have a distinctive mix of bacteria in their

digestive

> systems

> > that seems to make them prone to gaining weight, a startling

> discovery that

> > could lead to new ways to fight the obesity epidemic, researchers

> reported

> > yesterday.

> >

> > Obese people have more digestive microbes that are especially

> efficient at

> > extracting calories from food, the researchers said, and the

> proportion of

> > these super-digesting organisms ebbs as the people lose weight.

> Moreover,

> > when the scientists transplanted these bacteria from obese mice

> into lean

> > mice, the thin animals start getting fat. This provides more

> support for the

> > provocative theory that the bacteria that populate the intestine

> play an

> > important role in regulating weight.

> >

> > " There appears to be a link between obesity and the type of bugs

in

> your

> > gut, " said I. Gordon of Washington University School of

> Medicine in

> > St. Louis, who led the series of experiments being published in

> today's

> > issue of the journal Nature. " The difference in the structure of

> microbial

> > ecology of our gut may set us up for susceptibility to obesity. "

> >

> > Gordon and his colleagues stressed that more work is needed to

> explore the

> > findings. And they cautioned against trying to manipulate " gut

> flora " with

> > antibiotics or microbial " probiotic " pills sold in health-food

> stores. But

> > if the findings are confirmed and better understood, they could

> lead to

> > profound new insights into one of the nation's biggest health

> problems, the

> > researchers said.

> >

> > " In the future, we could potentially manipulate the structure and

> function

> > of these microbial societies as a new approach toward preventing

and

> > treating obesity, " Gordon said.

> >

> > The findings produced enthusiasm and caution from other

> researchers. Some

> > praised the work for possibly offering a long-sought alternative

> explanation

> > for the obesity epidemic. Perhaps some change, such as a food

> additive or

> > antibiotic use, has caused a fundamental shift in gut flora,

making

> it

> > easier for many people to gain weight.

> >

> > " This is very exciting, " said Barbara Corkey, an obesity

researcher

> at

> > Boston University. " We don't know why the obesity epidemic is

> happening.

> > People say it's because of gluttony and sloth. I think there must

be

> > something else. It's exciting to see some work being done on

> alternative

> > explanations. "

> >

> > Others suspect that if gut microbes do play a role, it is a minor

> one.

> >

> > " This is extremely interesting, " said Hans-Rudolf Berthoud of the

> Pennington

> > Biomedical Research Center in Baton Rouge. " But lifestyle and the

> > environment are still the major factors in the obesity epidemic. "

> >

> > On a broader level, the findings highlight the symbiotic

> relationship humans

> > maintain with the trillions of microorganisms that populate our

> bodies,

> > Gordon and others said.

> >

> > " This strengthens the notion that the indigenous organisms in the

> human body

> > are probably intimately involved in our health, " said A.

> Relman of

> > Stanford University. " The ways they are involved remain unclear,

> but this

> > underscores the idea that it behooves us to figure it out. "

> >

> > Scientists have long known that the human body is teeming with

> germs,

> > primarily bacteria, which cover the skin and inhabit every

orifice.

> By some

> > estimates only one out of every 10 cells in the human body is

> human. These

> > organisms perform a host of functions, especially in the

digestive

> tract,

> > where they help digest food.

> >

> > " There's growing interest in the idea that humans are more than

> just human

> > cells, " said Jack Blaser of New York University. " These

> cells are not

> > just passengers. They are part of the human metabolism. "

> >

> > To explore the role of the organisms in weight regulation,

Gordon's

> team

> > first compared the gut flora of 12 obese people to lean

subjects'.

> The obese

> > tended to have a significantly greater proportion of one of the

two

> main

> > types of bacteria found in the gut, known as Firmicutes, than the

> other,

> > known as Bacteroidetes.

> >

> > Next, the researchers spent a year meticulously measuring the gut

> flora of

> > the obese volunteers as they tried to lose weight by eating low-

> calorie

> > diets that restricted either their fat or carbohydrate intake. As

> volunteers

> > lost weight, the proportion of Firmicutes in their digestive

tracts

> fell and

> > the proportion of Bacteroidetes rose, the researchers found.

> >

> > When the researchers conducted detailed molecular analyses of the

> two types

> > of bacteria in the laboratory, they discovered the Firmicutes

were

> much

> > better at extracting calories from food.

> >

> > Moreover, when the researchers examined the gut flora of obese

> laboratory

> > mice, they found a similar pattern in their ratios of Firmicutes

to

> > Bacteroidetes. And when researchers transferred gut flora from

> obese mice to

> > mice devoid of gut flora, the recipient animals tended to gain

> weight,

> > confirming that the pattern was associated with weight gain.

> >

> > " This attribute of being able to harvest and store more energy

> appeared to

> > be transmissible, " Gordon said. " For the first time, we see that

> there is a

> > correlation between the microbial gut ecology and the obese

state. "

> >

> > Among other things, the findings could help explain why it

becomes

> harder

> > and harder to lose weight as people get fat, Gordon said.

> >

> > " That's part of the pathology of obesity. When you shift the

amount

> of fat

> > tissue, the amount of energy you can harvest becomes somewhat

> greater, and

> > that's going to fuel the obese state, " he said.

> >

> > The researchers acknowledged that the difference in the number of

> calories

> > extracted by the microbes is relatively small. But over time even

a

> small

> > differential could be significant, they said.

> >

> > Many questions remain, however. It is unclear what determines the

> make-up of

> > a person's gut flora. It might be the microbes they pick up from

> their

> > mothers; it might be their exposure to antibiotics. It is also

> unclear how

> > fat tissue and gut flora might affect one another, and whether

the

> change in

> > gut bacteria causes or is a result of the weight loss.

> >

> > Despite those and other questions, scientists said the findings

are

> sure to

> > inspire more investigation.

> >

> > " They open up a completely new hypothesis, " said Randy Seeley, an

> obesity

> > researcher at the University of Cincinnati who wrote a commentary

> > accompanying the research. " There are a lot of hurdles here that

we

> have to

> > deal with in terms of our basic understanding. But it's

> fascinating. "

> >

> > <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-

> dyn/content/article/2006/12/20/http://stat

> > s.surfaid.ihost.com/crc/images/uc.GIF?1.13 & wpost & wpost & noscript>

> >

> > <http://stats.surfaid.ihost.com/crc/images/uc.GIF?

> 1.13 & wpost & wpost & noscript>

> >

>

December 22, 2006

No I haven't. I think it has been present in some

multiple supplements. I just bought a bottle of a

juice with manganstein,hoodia and I think it has

carnitine in it. I noticed when I take it I feel achey

the next day so I think it is detoxing. Haven't notice

the hunger suppression. When my hunger for carbs

clicks in it more akin to an addiction.

Marie

--- Penny Houle <pennyhoule@...> wrote:

> Marie,

>

> Have you tried Chromium supplementation? I've

> found that after about a week or two on chromium, my

> carb cravings are gone! And there are studies out

> there that show chromium can treat diabetes, too, so

> it definitely seems to have some kind of impact on

> glucose/carbohydrate metabolism.

>

> penny

>

> Marie Mayberry <msmabrry@...> wrote:

> This is not really big news to those of us

> that take

> antibiotics orally. I ALWAYS get hungry for sugar

> and

> carbs when my candida count is up. I take diflucan,

> nystatin and go total abstinent on carbs and the

> craving goes down. It is a real battle though. The

> craving for carbs is intense.

> Marie

> --- a Carnes <pj7@...> wrote:

>

> > Obesity linked to Mix of bacteria in digestive

> > tract. - a Carnes

> >

> > One woman's editorial reply:

> >

> > " This is very interesting. Three months ago, my

> > husband, a poorly controlled

> > diabetic, had back surgery. He then contracted a

> > hospital-borne infection

> > and received long term Vancomycin therapy. Both

> his

> > weight and his blood

> > sugar levals declined precipitously to the point

> > that he has greatly reduced

> > his insulin and has to be very careful about low

> > blood sugars, which were

> > not previously a problem. Could this be relavent? "

> >

> > <http://www.washingtonpost.com/?nav=pf>

> > washingtonpost.com

> >

> > Research Links Obesity to Mix of Bacteria in

> > Digestive Tract

> >

> > By Rob Stein

> > Washington Post Staff Writer

> > Thursday, December 21, 2006; A12

> >

> > Obese people have a distinctive mix of bacteria in

> > their digestive systems

> > that seems to make them prone to gaining weight, a

> > startling discovery that

> > could lead to new ways to fight the obesity

> > epidemic, researchers reported

> > yesterday.

> >

> > Obese people have more digestive microbes that are

> > especially efficient at

> > extracting calories from food, the researchers

> said,

> > and the proportion of

> > these super-digesting organisms ebbs as the people

> > lose weight. Moreover,

> > when the scientists transplanted these bacteria

> from

> > obese mice into lean

> > mice, the thin animals start getting fat. This

> > provides more support for the

> > provocative theory that the bacteria that populate

> > the intestine play an

> > important role in regulating weight.

> >

> > " There appears to be a link between obesity and

> the

> > type of bugs in your

> > gut, " said I. Gordon of Washington

> > University School of Medicine in

> > St. Louis, who led the series of experiments being

> > published in today's

> > issue of the journal Nature. " The difference in

> the

> > structure of microbial

> > ecology of our gut may set us up for

> susceptibility

> > to obesity. "

> >

> > Gordon and his colleagues stressed that more work

> is

> > needed to explore the

> > findings. And they cautioned against trying to

> > manipulate " gut flora " with

> > antibiotics or microbial " probiotic " pills sold in

> > health-food stores. But

> > if the findings are confirmed and better

> understood,

> > they could lead to

> > profound new insights into one of the nation's

> > biggest health problems, the

> > researchers said.

> >

> > " In the future, we could potentially manipulate

> the

> > structure and function

> > of these microbial societies as a new approach

> > toward preventing and

> > treating obesity, " Gordon said.

> >

> > The findings produced enthusiasm and caution from

> > other researchers. Some

> > praised the work for possibly offering a

> long-sought

> > alternative explanation

> > for the obesity epidemic. Perhaps some change,

> such

> > as a food additive or

> > antibiotic use, has caused a fundamental shift in

> > gut flora, making it

> > easier for many people to gain weight.

> >

> > " This is very exciting, " said Barbara Corkey, an

> > obesity researcher at

> > Boston University. " We don't know why the obesity

> > epidemic is happening.

> > People say it's because of gluttony and sloth. I

> > think there must be

> > something else. It's exciting to see some work

> being

> > done on alternative

> > explanations. "

> >

> > Others suspect that if gut microbes do play a

> role,

> > it is a minor one.

> >

> > " This is extremely interesting, " said Hans-Rudolf

> > Berthoud of the Pennington

> > Biomedical Research Center in Baton Rouge. " But

> > lifestyle and the

> > environment are still the major factors in the

> > obesity epidemic. "

> >

> > On a broader level, the findings highlight the

> > symbiotic relationship humans

> > maintain with the trillions of microorganisms that

> > populate our bodies,

> > Gordon and others said.

> >

> > " This strengthens the notion that the indigenous

> > organisms in the human body

> > are probably intimately involved in our health, "

> > said A. Relman of

> > Stanford University. " The ways they are involved

> > remain unclear, but this

> > underscores the idea that it behooves us to figure

> > it out. "

> >

> > Scientists have long known that the human body is

> > teeming with germs,

> > primarily bacteria, which cover the skin and

> inhabit

> > every orifice. By some

> > estimates only one out of every 10 cells in the

> > human body is human. These

> > organisms perform a host of functions, especially

> in

> > the digestive tract,

> > where they help digest food.

> >

> > " There's growing interest in the idea that humans

> > are more than just human

> > cells, " said Jack Blaser of New York

> > University. " These cells are not

> > just passengers. They are part of the human

> > metabolism. "

> >

> > To explore the role of the organisms in weight

> > regulation, Gordon's team

> > first compared the gut flora of 12 obese people to

> > lean subjects'. The obese

> > tended to have a significantly greater proportion

> of

> > one of the two main

> > types of bacteria found in the gut, known as

> > Firmicutes, than the other,

> > known as Bacteroidetes.

> >

> > Next, the researchers spent a year meticulously

> > measuring the gut flora of

> > the obese volunteers as they tried to lose weight

> by

> > eating low-calorie

> > diets that restricted either their fat or

> > carbohydrate intake. As volunteers

>

=== message truncated ===

__________________________________________________

December 24, 2006

a

Sorry to bend the topic. Unfortunately my business background (that

spanned 26 years) drove me differently than most on these forums.

I learnt that when your going for a diagnosis, as you have in the

past 8 months.. YOU AIN " T GOING TO GET ANYTHING THAT SATISFACTORILY

explains your problem/s...I tried to give you a little heads up that

you need to go the extra mile otherwise you'll remain in the loop of

travelling back and forth to all these appointments.

I also tried to learn about the importance of INFLAMMATION and how it

works and how it's controlled- I had the big bagwhana from the

unmentionable protocol try teach me how it all falls into place.

YET!!!!!!! everytime I loose 10 lbs my inflammation levels are so

UNDER CONTROL..How does a simple explanation like loosing some fat

get your inflammation so much better under control???It's funny that

people's blood glucose levels also fluctuate with weight control. My

mother a diabetic for 20 years had reduced her insulin requirements

to minute amounts after loosing a lot of weight in one long hospital

stay..These simple OBSERVATIONS ain't adequately explained by anyone.

Imagine if the fat around your midsection is slowing down THE

production of hormones required to clamp inflammtion- POSSABLY A

SIMILAR MODEL TO THAT REQUIRED TO GET YOUR GLUCOSE LEVEL;S RIGHT..

The bagwhana was not that slim..

Then to top it all off we have the glutathione king preaching his

gospel, 'get your red cells checked fopr glutathione', do yammy

yaskos' panel of tests for a grand amount possably totalling 2500

dollars.How freakin stupid is that. Why would you want to get your

blood checked for some outstanding CRAP when it's FREAKIN CURDLING IN

YOUR VEINS...Why anyone would not want a video like AW " S to show the

world your blood's a fukin mess is beyond me.It cost's 50 cents for a

slide and you supply a drop of blood and it's all CLEAR AS DAY

(FUKED).Also to SCOOT AROUND THE WAY CLUSTER'S OF PEOPLE GOT ILL AND

TRY FIT SOME FUKED UP THEORY INTO PLACE, IS CRIMINAL. IMO...

Sorry about the long post, just had to get some things of my chest.

My advise to you is get yourself some light beer and drink a few

litres..You''ll improve your blood volume for a day or two, things

will work better and you may possably do something you'll regret

later.

cheers tony

> > >

> > > Obesity linked to Mix of bacteria in digestive tract. - a

> Carnes

> > >

> > > One woman's editorial reply:

> > >

> > > " This is very interesting. Three months ago, my husband, a

poorly

> > controlled

> > > diabetic, had back surgery. He then contracted a hospital-borne

> > infection

> > > and received long term Vancomycin therapy. Both his weight and

> his

> > blood

> > > sugar levals declined precipitously to the point that he has

> > greatly reduced

> > > his insulin and has to be very careful about low blood sugars,

> > which were

> > > not previously a problem. Could this be relavent? "

> > >

> > > <http://www.washingtonpost.com/?nav=pf> washingtonpost.com

> > >

> > > Research Links Obesity to Mix of Bacteria in Digestive Tract

> > >

> > > By Rob Stein

> > > Washington Post Staff Writer

> > > Thursday, December 21, 2006; A12

> > >

> > > Obese people have a distinctive mix of bacteria in their

> digestive

> > systems

> > > that seems to make them prone to gaining weight, a startling

> > discovery that

> > > could lead to new ways to fight the obesity epidemic,

researchers

> > reported

> > > yesterday.

> > >

> > > Obese people have more digestive microbes that are especially

> > efficient at

> > > extracting calories from food, the researchers said, and the

> > proportion of

> > > these super-digesting organisms ebbs as the people lose weight.

> > Moreover,

> > > when the scientists transplanted these bacteria from obese mice

> > into lean

> > > mice, the thin animals start getting fat. This provides more

> > support for the

> > > provocative theory that the bacteria that populate the

intestine

> > play an

> > > important role in regulating weight.

> > >

> > > " There appears to be a link between obesity and the type of

bugs

> in

> > your

> > > gut, " said I. Gordon of Washington University School of

> > Medicine in

> > > St. Louis, who led the series of experiments being published in

> > today's

> > > issue of the journal Nature. " The difference in the structure

of

> > microbial

> > > ecology of our gut may set us up for susceptibility to obesity. "

> > >

> > > Gordon and his colleagues stressed that more work is needed to

> > explore the

> > > findings. And they cautioned against trying to manipulate " gut

> > flora " with

> > > antibiotics or microbial " probiotic " pills sold in health-food

> > stores. But

> > > if the findings are confirmed and better understood, they could

> > lead to

> > > profound new insights into one of the nation's biggest health

> > problems, the

> > > researchers said.

> > >

> > > " In the future, we could potentially manipulate the structure

and

> > function

> > > of these microbial societies as a new approach toward

preventing

> and

> > > treating obesity, " Gordon said.

> > >

> > > The findings produced enthusiasm and caution from other

> > researchers. Some

> > > praised the work for possibly offering a long-sought

alternative

> > explanation

> > > for the obesity epidemic. Perhaps some change, such as a food

> > additive or

> > > antibiotic use, has caused a fundamental shift in gut flora,

> making

> > it

> > > easier for many people to gain weight.

> > >

> > > " This is very exciting, " said Barbara Corkey, an obesity

> researcher

> > at

> > > Boston University. " We don't know why the obesity epidemic is

> > happening.

> > > People say it's because of gluttony and sloth. I think there

must

> be

> > > something else. It's exciting to see some work being done on

> > alternative

> > > explanations. "

> > >

> > > Others suspect that if gut microbes do play a role, it is a

minor

> > one.

> > >

> > > " This is extremely interesting, " said Hans-Rudolf Berthoud of

the

> > Pennington

> > > Biomedical Research Center in Baton Rouge. " But lifestyle and

the

> > > environment are still the major factors in the obesity

epidemic. "

> > >

> > > On a broader level, the findings highlight the symbiotic

> > relationship humans

> > > maintain with the trillions of microorganisms that populate our

> > bodies,

> > > Gordon and others said.

> > >

> > > " This strengthens the notion that the indigenous organisms in

the

> > human body

> > > are probably intimately involved in our health, " said A.

> > Relman of

> > > Stanford University. " The ways they are involved remain

unclear,

> > but this

> > > underscores the idea that it behooves us to figure it out. "

> > >

> > > Scientists have long known that the human body is teeming with

> > germs,

> > > primarily bacteria, which cover the skin and inhabit every

> orifice.

> > By some

> > > estimates only one out of every 10 cells in the human body is

> > human. These

> > > organisms perform a host of functions, especially in the

> digestive

> > tract,

> > > where they help digest food.

> > >

> > > " There's growing interest in the idea that humans are more than

> > just human

> > > cells, " said Jack Blaser of New York University. " These

> > cells are not

> > > just passengers. They are part of the human metabolism. "

> > >

> > > To explore the role of the organisms in weight regulation,

> Gordon's

> > team

> > > first compared the gut flora of 12 obese people to lean

> subjects'.

> > The obese

> > > tended to have a significantly greater proportion of one of the

> two

> > main

> > > types of bacteria found in the gut, known as Firmicutes, than

the

> > other,

> > > known as Bacteroidetes.

> > >

> > > Next, the researchers spent a year meticulously measuring the

gut

> > flora of

> > > the obese volunteers as they tried to lose weight by eating low-

> > calorie

> > > diets that restricted either their fat or carbohydrate intake.

As

> > volunteers

> > > lost weight, the proportion of Firmicutes in their digestive

> tracts

> > fell and

> > > the proportion of Bacteroidetes rose, the researchers found.

> > >

> > > When the researchers conducted detailed molecular analyses of

the

> > two types

> > > of bacteria in the laboratory, they discovered the Firmicutes

> were

> > much

> > > better at extracting calories from food.

> > >

> > > Moreover, when the researchers examined the gut flora of obese

> > laboratory

> > > mice, they found a similar pattern in their ratios of

Firmicutes

> to

> > > Bacteroidetes. And when researchers transferred gut flora from

> > obese mice to

> > > mice devoid of gut flora, the recipient animals tended to gain

> > weight,

> > > confirming that the pattern was associated with weight gain.

> > >

> > > " This attribute of being able to harvest and store more energy

> > appeared to

> > > be transmissible, " Gordon said. " For the first time, we see

that

> > there is a

> > > correlation between the microbial gut ecology and the obese

> state. "

> > >

> > > Among other things, the findings could help explain why it

> becomes

> > harder

> > > and harder to lose weight as people get fat, Gordon said.

> > >

> > > " That's part of the pathology of obesity. When you shift the

> amount

> > of fat

> > > tissue, the amount of energy you can harvest becomes somewhat

> > greater, and

> > > that's going to fuel the obese state, " he said.

> > >

> > > The researchers acknowledged that the difference in the number

of

> > calories

> > > extracted by the microbes is relatively small. But over time

even

> a

> > small

> > > differential could be significant, they said.

> > >

> > > Many questions remain, however. It is unclear what determines

the

> > make-up of

> > > a person's gut flora. It might be the microbes they pick up

from

> > their

> > > mothers; it might be their exposure to antibiotics. It is also

> > unclear how

> > > fat tissue and gut flora might affect one another, and whether

> the

> > change in

> > > gut bacteria causes or is a result of the weight loss.

> > >

> > > Despite those and other questions, scientists said the findings

> are

> > sure to

> > > inspire more investigation.

> > >

> > > " They open up a completely new hypothesis, " said Randy Seeley,

an

> > obesity

> > > researcher at the University of Cincinnati who wrote a

commentary

> > > accompanying the research. " There are a lot of hurdles here

that

> we

> > have to

> > > deal with in terms of our basic understanding. But it's

> > fascinating. "

> > >

> > > <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-

> > dyn/content/article/2006/12/20/http://stat

> > > s.surfaid.ihost.com/crc/images/uc.GIF?

1.13 & wpost & wpost & noscript>

> > >

> > > <http://stats.surfaid.ihost.com/crc/images/uc.GIF?

> > 1.13 & wpost & wpost & noscript>

> > >

> >

>

December 25, 2006

Tony, your post was almost as good as the sermon at church this

morning. I laughed my head off. Unfortunately I don't like beer and

alcohol makes me spacey. I will just have to settle for Recuperation.

Did I tell you I am on Diflucan for 25 days then penicillin for 2

weeks? I THINK my headache is beginning to improve. But even more I

think I am herxing on the diflucan. I actually had to stop it for

about 3 days because I was feeling so bad.

We shall see.

a

>

> a

> Sorry to bend the topic. Unfortunately my business background (that

> spanned 26 years) drove me differently than most on these forums.

> I learnt that when your going for a diagnosis, as you have in the

> past 8 months.. YOU AIN " T GOING TO GET ANYTHING THAT SATISFACTORILY

> explains your problem/s...I tried to give you a little heads up

that

> you need to go the extra mile otherwise you'll remain in the loop

of

> travelling back and forth to all these appointments.

> I also tried to learn about the importance of INFLAMMATION and how

it

> works and how it's controlled- I had the big bagwhana from the

> unmentionable protocol try teach me how it all falls into place.

> YET!!!!!!! everytime I loose 10 lbs my inflammation levels are so

> UNDER CONTROL..How does a simple explanation like loosing some fat

> get your inflammation so much better under control???It's funny

that

> people's blood glucose levels also fluctuate with weight control.

My

> mother a diabetic for 20 years had reduced her insulin requirements

> to minute amounts after loosing a lot of weight in one long

hospital

> stay..These simple OBSERVATIONS ain't adequately explained by

anyone.

> Imagine if the fat around your midsection is slowing down THE

> production of hormones required to clamp inflammtion- POSSABLY A

> SIMILAR MODEL TO THAT REQUIRED TO GET YOUR GLUCOSE LEVEL;S RIGHT..

> The bagwhana was not that slim..

> Then to top it all off we have the glutathione king preaching his

> gospel, 'get your red cells checked fopr glutathione', do yammy

> yaskos' panel of tests for a grand amount possably totalling 2500

> dollars.How freakin stupid is that. Why would you want to get your

> blood checked for some outstanding CRAP when it's FREAKIN CURDLING

IN

> YOUR VEINS...Why anyone would not want a video like AW " S to show

the

> world your blood's a fukin mess is beyond me.It cost's 50 cents for

a

> slide and you supply a drop of blood and it's all CLEAR AS DAY

> (FUKED).Also to SCOOT AROUND THE WAY CLUSTER'S OF PEOPLE GOT ILL

AND

> TRY FIT SOME FUKED UP THEORY INTO PLACE, IS CRIMINAL. IMO...

> Sorry about the long post, just had to get some things of my chest.

> My advise to you is get yourself some light beer and drink a few

> litres..You''ll improve your blood volume for a day or two, things

> will work better and you may possably do something you'll regret

> later.

> cheers tony

>

> > > >

> > > > Obesity linked to Mix of bacteria in digestive tract. - a

> > Carnes

> > > >

> > > > One woman's editorial reply:

> > > >

> > > > " This is very interesting. Three months ago, my husband, a

> poorly

> > > controlled

> > > > diabetic, had back surgery. He then contracted a hospital-

borne

> > > infection

> > > > and received long term Vancomycin therapy. Both his weight

and

> > his

> > > blood

> > > > sugar levals declined precipitously to the point that he has

> > > greatly reduced

> > > > his insulin and has to be very careful about low blood

sugars,

> > > which were

> > > > not previously a problem. Could this be relavent? "

> > > >

> > > > <http://www.washingtonpost.com/?nav=pf> washingtonpost.com

> > > >

> > > > Research Links Obesity to Mix of Bacteria in Digestive Tract

> > > >

> > > > By Rob Stein

> > > > Washington Post Staff Writer

> > > > Thursday, December 21, 2006; A12

> > > >

> > > > Obese people have a distinctive mix of bacteria in their

> > digestive

> > > systems

> > > > that seems to make them prone to gaining weight, a startling

> > > discovery that

> > > > could lead to new ways to fight the obesity epidemic,

> researchers

> > > reported

> > > > yesterday.

> > > >

> > > > Obese people have more digestive microbes that are especially

> > > efficient at

> > > > extracting calories from food, the researchers said, and the

> > > proportion of

> > > > these super-digesting organisms ebbs as the people lose

weight.

> > > Moreover,

> > > > when the scientists transplanted these bacteria from obese

mice

> > > into lean

> > > > mice, the thin animals start getting fat. This provides more

> > > support for the

> > > > provocative theory that the bacteria that populate the

> intestine

> > > play an

> > > > important role in regulating weight.

> > > >

> > > > " There appears to be a link between obesity and the type of

> bugs

> > in

> > > your

> > > > gut, " said I. Gordon of Washington University School

of

> > > Medicine in

> > > > St. Louis, who led the series of experiments being published

in

> > > today's

> > > > issue of the journal Nature. " The difference in the structure

> of

> > > microbial

> > > > ecology of our gut may set us up for susceptibility to

obesity. "

> > > >

> > > > Gordon and his colleagues stressed that more work is needed

to

> > > explore the

> > > > findings. And they cautioned against trying to

manipulate " gut

> > > flora " with

> > > > antibiotics or microbial " probiotic " pills sold in health-

food

> > > stores. But

> > > > if the findings are confirmed and better understood, they

could

> > > lead to

> > > > profound new insights into one of the nation's biggest health

> > > problems, the

> > > > researchers said.

> > > >

> > > > " In the future, we could potentially manipulate the structure

> and

> > > function

> > > > of these microbial societies as a new approach toward

> preventing

> > and

> > > > treating obesity, " Gordon said.

> > > >

> > > > The findings produced enthusiasm and caution from other

> > > researchers. Some

> > > > praised the work for possibly offering a long-sought

> alternative

> > > explanation

> > > > for the obesity epidemic. Perhaps some change, such as a food

> > > additive or

> > > > antibiotic use, has caused a fundamental shift in gut flora,

> > making

> > > it

> > > > easier for many people to gain weight.

> > > >

> > > > " This is very exciting, " said Barbara Corkey, an obesity

> > researcher

> > > at

> > > > Boston University. " We don't know why the obesity epidemic is

> > > happening.

> > > > People say it's because of gluttony and sloth. I think there

> must

> > be

> > > > something else. It's exciting to see some work being done on

> > > alternative

> > > > explanations. "

> > > >

> > > > Others suspect that if gut microbes do play a role, it is a

> minor

> > > one.

> > > >

> > > > " This is extremely interesting, " said Hans-Rudolf Berthoud of

> the

> > > Pennington

> > > > Biomedical Research Center in Baton Rouge. " But lifestyle and

> the

> > > > environment are still the major factors in the obesity

> epidemic. "

> > > >

> > > > On a broader level, the findings highlight the symbiotic

> > > relationship humans

> > > > maintain with the trillions of microorganisms that populate

our

> > > bodies,

> > > > Gordon and others said.

> > > >

> > > > " This strengthens the notion that the indigenous organisms in

> the

> > > human body

> > > > are probably intimately involved in our health, " said

A.

> > > Relman of

> > > > Stanford University. " The ways they are involved remain

> unclear,

> > > but this

> > > > underscores the idea that it behooves us to figure it out. "

> > > >

> > > > Scientists have long known that the human body is teeming

with

> > > germs,

> > > > primarily bacteria, which cover the skin and inhabit every

> > orifice.

> > > By some

> > > > estimates only one out of every 10 cells in the human body is

> > > human. These

> > > > organisms perform a host of functions, especially in the

> > digestive

> > > tract,

> > > > where they help digest food.

> > > >

> > > > " There's growing interest in the idea that humans are more

than

> > > just human

> > > > cells, " said Jack Blaser of New York

University. " These

> > > cells are not

> > > > just passengers. They are part of the human metabolism. "

> > > >

> > > > To explore the role of the organisms in weight regulation,

> > Gordon's

> > > team

> > > > first compared the gut flora of 12 obese people to lean

> > subjects'.

> > > The obese

> > > > tended to have a significantly greater proportion of one of

the

> > two

> > > main

> > > > types of bacteria found in the gut, known as Firmicutes, than

> the

> > > other,

> > > > known as Bacteroidetes.

> > > >

> > > > Next, the researchers spent a year meticulously measuring the

> gut

> > > flora of

> > > > the obese volunteers as they tried to lose weight by eating

low-

> > > calorie

> > > > diets that restricted either their fat or carbohydrate

intake.

> As

> > > volunteers

> > > > lost weight, the proportion of Firmicutes in their digestive

> > tracts

> > > fell and

> > > > the proportion of Bacteroidetes rose, the researchers found.

> > > >

> > > > When the researchers conducted detailed molecular analyses of

> the

> > > two types

> > > > of bacteria in the laboratory, they discovered the Firmicutes

> > were

> > > much

> > > > better at extracting calories from food.

> > > >

> > > > Moreover, when the researchers examined the gut flora of

obese

> > > laboratory

> > > > mice, they found a similar pattern in their ratios of

> Firmicutes

> > to

> > > > Bacteroidetes. And when researchers transferred gut flora

from

> > > obese mice to

> > > > mice devoid of gut flora, the recipient animals tended to

gain

> > > weight,

> > > > confirming that the pattern was associated with weight gain.

> > > >

> > > > " This attribute of being able to harvest and store more

energy

> > > appeared to

> > > > be transmissible, " Gordon said. " For the first time, we see

> that

> > > there is a

> > > > correlation between the microbial gut ecology and the obese

> > state. "

> > > >

> > > > Among other things, the findings could help explain why it

> > becomes

> > > harder

> > > > and harder to lose weight as people get fat, Gordon said.

> > > >

> > > > " That's part of the pathology of obesity. When you shift the

> > amount

> > > of fat

> > > > tissue, the amount of energy you can harvest becomes somewhat

> > > greater, and

> > > > that's going to fuel the obese state, " he said.

> > > >

> > > > The researchers acknowledged that the difference in the

number

> of

> > > calories

> > > > extracted by the microbes is relatively small. But over time

> even

> > a

> > > small

> > > > differential could be significant, they said.

> > > >

> > > > Many questions remain, however. It is unclear what determines

> the

> > > make-up of

> > > > a person's gut flora. It might be the microbes they pick up

> from

> > > their

> > > > mothers; it might be their exposure to antibiotics. It is

also

> > > unclear how

> > > > fat tissue and gut flora might affect one another, and

whether

> > the

> > > change in

> > > > gut bacteria causes or is a result of the weight loss.

> > > >

> > > > Despite those and other questions, scientists said the

findings

> > are

> > > sure to

> > > > inspire more investigation.

> > > >

> > > > " They open up a completely new hypothesis, " said Randy

Seeley,

> an

> > > obesity

> > > > researcher at the University of Cincinnati who wrote a

> commentary

> > > > accompanying the research. " There are a lot of hurdles here

> that

> > we

> > > have to

> > > > deal with in terms of our basic understanding. But it's

> > > fascinating. "

> > > >

> > > > <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-

> > > dyn/content/article/2006/12/20/http://stat

> > > > s.surfaid.ihost.com/crc/images/uc.GIF?

> 1.13 & wpost & wpost & noscript>

> > > >

> > > > <http://stats.surfaid.ihost.com/crc/images/uc.GIF?

> > > 1.13 & wpost & wpost & noscript>

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

December 25, 2006

a

Can you please trim your posts, before nelly arrives and let's US

have it.-I'm an absolute show me the money personality, so you get

just that in every one of my posts. Also I forgot to add my favourite

of all favourite docs on that list, CHENEY.

Imagine being a patient of his for twenty years and finding that you

and all his other patients go on and develop heart disease.The guy

sits at the heart of a respiratory pathogen and spends 30 years

treating symptoms. Love this logic, just absolutely get thrilled when

someone posts how excited they get when they see the man.I actually

get excited and reach for my viagra whenever anyone posts anything

about his latest and greatest theories.

Can someone please!!!!!!!!! spare me the drab, crap that keeps coming

from these so called CFS specialisyts.Again I'm sorry if I offend,

I'm just bored with all the stuff that's dished up. By the way, I

only take viagra to stop me rolling of the bed.

merry xmas

tony

-- In infections , " pjeanneus "

<pj7@...> wrote:

>

> Tony, your post was almost as good as the sermon at church this

> morning. I laughed my head off. Unfortunately I don't like beer and

> alcohol makes me spacey. I will just have to settle for

Recuperation.

>

> Did I tell you I am on Diflucan for 25 days then penicillin for 2

> weeks? I THINK my headache is beginning to improve. But even more I

> think I am herxing on the diflucan. I actually had to stop it for

> about 3 days because I was feeling so bad.

>

> We shall see.

>

> a

>

> >

> > a

> > Sorry to bend the topic. Unfortunately my business background

(that

> > spanned 26 years) drove me differently than most on these forums.

> > I learnt that when your going for a diagnosis, as you have in the

> > past 8 months.. YOU AIN " T GOING TO GET ANYTHING THAT

SATISFACTORILY

> > explains your problem/s...I tried to give you a little heads up

> that

> > you need to go the extra mile otherwise you'll remain in the loop

> of

> > travelling back and forth to all these appointments.

> > I also tried to learn about the importance of INFLAMMATION and

how

> it

> > works and how it's controlled- I had the big bagwhana from the

> > unmentionable protocol try teach me how it all falls into place.

> > YET!!!!!!! everytime I loose 10 lbs my inflammation levels are so

> > UNDER CONTROL..How does a simple explanation like loosing some

fat

> > get your inflammation so much better under control???It's funny

> that

> > people's blood glucose levels also fluctuate with weight control.

> My

> > mother a diabetic for 20 years had reduced her insulin

requirements

> > to minute amounts after loosing a lot of weight in one long

> hospital

> > stay..These simple OBSERVATIONS ain't adequately explained by

> anyone.

> > Imagine if the fat around your midsection is slowing down THE

> > production of hormones required to clamp inflammtion- POSSABLY A

> > SIMILAR MODEL TO THAT REQUIRED TO GET YOUR GLUCOSE LEVEL;S RIGHT..

> > The bagwhana was not that slim..

> > Then to top it all off we have the glutathione king preaching his

> > gospel, 'get your red cells checked fopr glutathione', do yammy

> > yaskos' panel of tests for a grand amount possably totalling 2500

> > dollars.How freakin stupid is that. Why would you want to get

your

> > blood checked for some outstanding CRAP when it's FREAKIN

CURDLING

> IN

> > YOUR VEINS...Why anyone would not want a video like AW " S to show

> the

> > world your blood's a fukin mess is beyond me.It cost's 50 cents

for

> a

> > slide and you supply a drop of blood and it's all CLEAR AS DAY

> > (FUKED).Also to SCOOT AROUND THE WAY CLUSTER'S OF PEOPLE GOT ILL

> AND

> > TRY FIT SOME FUKED UP THEORY INTO PLACE, IS CRIMINAL. IMO...

> > Sorry about the long post, just had to get some things of my

chest.

> > My advise to you is get yourself some light beer and drink a few

> > litres..You''ll improve your blood volume for a day or two,

things

> > will work better and you may possably do something you'll regret

> > later.

> > cheers tony

> >

> > > > >

> > > > > Obesity linked to Mix of bacteria in digestive tract. -

a

> > > Carnes

> > > > >

> > > > > One woman's editorial reply:

> > > > >

> > > > > " This is very interesting. Three months ago, my husband, a

> > poorly

> > > > controlled

> > > > > diabetic, had back surgery. He then contracted a hospital-

> borne

> > > > infection

> > > > > and received long term Vancomycin therapy. Both his weight

> and

> > > his

> > > > blood

> > > > > sugar levals declined precipitously to the point that he

has

> > > > greatly reduced

> > > > > his insulin and has to be very careful about low blood

> sugars,

> > > > which were

> > > > > not previously a problem. Could this be relavent? "

> > > > >

> > > > > <http://www.washingtonpost.com/?nav=pf>

washingtonpost.com

> > > > >

> > > > > Research Links Obesity to Mix of Bacteria in Digestive Tract

> > > > >

> > > > > By Rob Stein

> > > > > Washington Post Staff Writer

> > > > > Thursday, December 21, 2006; A12

> > > > >

> > > > > Obese people have a distinctive mix of bacteria in their

> > > digestive

> > > > systems

> > > > > that seems to make them prone to gaining weight, a

startling

> > > > discovery that

> > > > > could lead to new ways to fight the obesity epidemic,

> > researchers

> > > > reported

> > > > > yesterday.

> > > > >

> > > > > Obese people have more digestive microbes that are

especially

> > > > efficient at

> > > > > extracting calories from food, the researchers said, and

the

> > > > proportion of

> > > > > these super-digesting organisms ebbs as the people lose

> weight.

> > > > Moreover,

> > > > > when the scientists transplanted these bacteria from obese

> mice

> > > > into lean

> > > > > mice, the thin animals start getting fat. This provides

more

> > > > support for the

> > > > > provocative theory that the bacteria that populate the

> > intestine

> > > > play an

> > > > > important role in regulating weight.

> > > > >

> > > > > " There appears to be a link between obesity and the type of

> > bugs

> > > in

> > > > your

> > > > > gut, " said I. Gordon of Washington University

School

> of

> > > > Medicine in

> > > > > St. Louis, who led the series of experiments being

published

> in

> > > > today's

> > > > > issue of the journal Nature. " The difference in the

structure

> > of

> > > > microbial

> > > > > ecology of our gut may set us up for susceptibility to

> obesity. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Gordon and his colleagues stressed that more work is needed

> to

> > > > explore the

> > > > > findings. And they cautioned against trying to

> manipulate " gut

> > > > flora " with

> > > > > antibiotics or microbial " probiotic " pills sold in health-

> food

> > > > stores. But

> > > > > if the findings are confirmed and better understood, they

> could

> > > > lead to

> > > > > profound new insights into one of the nation's biggest

health

> > > > problems, the

> > > > > researchers said.

> > > > >

> > > > > " In the future, we could potentially manipulate the

structure

> > and

> > > > function

> > > > > of these microbial societies as a new approach toward

> > preventing

> > > and

> > > > > treating obesity, " Gordon said.

> > > > >

> > > > > The findings produced enthusiasm and caution from other

> > > > researchers. Some

> > > > > praised the work for possibly offering a long-sought

> > alternative

> > > > explanation

> > > > > for the obesity epidemic. Perhaps some change, such as a

food

> > > > additive or

> > > > > antibiotic use, has caused a fundamental shift in gut

flora,

> > > making

> > > > it

> > > > > easier for many people to gain weight.

> > > > >

> > > > > " This is very exciting, " said Barbara Corkey, an obesity

> > > researcher

> > > > at

> > > > > Boston University. " We don't know why the obesity epidemic

is

> > > > happening.

> > > > > People say it's because of gluttony and sloth. I think

there

> > must

> > > be

> > > > > something else. It's exciting to see some work being done

on

> > > > alternative

> > > > > explanations. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Others suspect that if gut microbes do play a role, it is a

> > minor

> > > > one.

> > > > >

> > > > > " This is extremely interesting, " said Hans-Rudolf Berthoud

of

> > the

> > > > Pennington

> > > > > Biomedical Research Center in Baton Rouge. " But lifestyle

and

> > the

> > > > > environment are still the major factors in the obesity

> > epidemic. "

> > > > >

> > > > > On a broader level, the findings highlight the symbiotic

> > > > relationship humans

> > > > > maintain with the trillions of microorganisms that populate

> our

> > > > bodies,

> > > > > Gordon and others said.

> > > > >

> > > > > " This strengthens the notion that the indigenous organisms

in

> > the

> > > > human body

> > > > > are probably intimately involved in our health, " said

> A.

> > > > Relman of

> > > > > Stanford University. " The ways they are involved remain

> > unclear,

> > > > but this

> > > > > underscores the idea that it behooves us to figure it out. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Scientists have long known that the human body is teeming

> with

> > > > germs,

> > > > > primarily bacteria, which cover the skin and inhabit every

> > > orifice.

> > > > By some

> > > > > estimates only one out of every 10 cells in the human body

is

> > > > human. These

> > > > > organisms perform a host of functions, especially in the

> > > digestive

> > > > tract,

> > > > > where they help digest food.

> > > > >

> > > > > " There's growing interest in the idea that humans are more

> than

> > > > just human

> > > > > cells, " said Jack Blaser of New York

> University. " These

> > > > cells are not

> > > > > just passengers. They are part of the human metabolism. "

> > > > >

> > > > > To explore the role of the organisms in weight regulation,

> > > Gordon's

> > > > team

> > > > > first compared the gut flora of 12 obese people to lean

> > > subjects'.

> > > > The obese

> > > > > tended to have a significantly greater proportion of one of

> the

> > > two

> > > > main

> > > > > types of bacteria found in the gut, known as Firmicutes,

than

> > the

> > > > other,

> > > > > known as Bacteroidetes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Next, the researchers spent a year meticulously measuring

the

> > gut

> > > > flora of

> > > > > the obese volunteers as they tried to lose weight by eating

> low-

> > > > calorie

> > > > > diets that restricted either their fat or carbohydrate

> intake.

> > As

> > > > volunteers

> > > > > lost weight, the proportion of Firmicutes in their

digestive

> > > tracts

> > > > fell and

> > > > > the proportion of Bacteroidetes rose, the researchers found.

> > > > >

> > > > > When the researchers conducted detailed molecular analyses

of

> > the

> > > > two types

> > > > > of bacteria in the laboratory, they discovered the

Firmicutes

> > > were

> > > > much

> > > > > better at extracting calories from food.

> > > > >

> > > > > Moreover, when the researchers examined the gut flora of

> obese

> > > > laboratory

> > > > > mice, they found a similar pattern in their ratios of

> > Firmicutes

> > > to

> > > > > Bacteroidetes. And when researchers transferred gut flora

> from

> > > > obese mice to

> > > > > mice devoid of gut flora, the recipient animals tended to

> gain

> > > > weight,

> > > > > confirming that the pattern was associated with weight gain.

> > > > >

> > > > > " This attribute of being able to harvest and store more

> energy

> > > > appeared to

> > > > > be transmissible, " Gordon said. " For the first time, we see

> > that

> > > > there is a

> > > > > correlation between the microbial gut ecology and the obese

> > > state. "

> > > > >

> > > > > Among other things, the findings could help explain why it

> > > becomes

> > > > harder

> > > > > and harder to lose weight as people get fat, Gordon said.

> > > > >

> > > > > " That's part of the pathology of obesity. When you shift

the

> > > amount

> > > > of fat

> > > > > tissue, the amount of energy you can harvest becomes

somewhat

> > > > greater, and

> > > > > that's going to fuel the obese state, " he said.

> > > > >

> > > > > The researchers acknowledged that the difference in the

> number

> > of

> > > > calories

> > > > > extracted by the microbes is relatively small. But over

time

> > even

> > > a

> > > > small

> > > > > differential could be significant, they said.

> > > > >

> > > > > Many questions remain, however. It is unclear what

determines

> > the

> > > > make-up of

> > > > > a person's gut flora. It might be the microbes they pick up

> > from

> > > > their

> > > > > mothers; it might be their exposure to antibiotics. It is

> also

> > > > unclear how

> > > > > fat tissue and gut flora might affect one another, and

> whether

> > > the

> > > > change in

> > > > > gut bacteria causes or is a result of the weight loss.

> > > > >

> > > > > Despite those and other questions, scientists said the

> findings

> > > are

> > > > sure to

> > > > > inspire more investigation.

> > > > >

> > > > > " They open up a completely new hypothesis, " said Randy

> Seeley,

> > an

> > > > obesity

> > > > > researcher at the University of Cincinnati who wrote a

> > commentary

> > > > > accompanying the research. " There are a lot of hurdles here

> > that

> > > we

> > > > have to

> > > > > deal with in terms of our basic understanding. But it's

> > > > fascinating. "

> > > > >

> > > > > <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-

> > > > dyn/content/article/2006/12/20/http://stat

> > > > > s.surfaid.ihost.com/crc/images/uc.GIF?

> > 1.13 & wpost & wpost & noscript>

> > > > >

> > > > > <http://stats.surfaid.ihost.com/crc/images/uc.GIF?

> > > > 1.13 & wpost & wpost & noscript>

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

December 25, 2006

Whoa! Who woke you up, Tony???? Thanks for the Christmas Laugh. I had to read that viagra thing to my family. lol! Merry Christmas all. Hope your stockings are filled with goodies and your new year is specatacular! penny dumbaussie2000 <dumbaussie2000@...> wrote: aCan you please trim your posts, before nelly arrives and let's US have it.-I'm an absolute show me the money

personality, so you get just that in every one of my posts. Also I forgot to add my favourite of all favourite docs on that list, CHENEY.Imagine being a patient of his for twenty years and finding that you and all his other patients go on and develop heart disease.The guy sits at the heart of a respiratory pathogen and spends 30 years treating symptoms. Love this logic, just absolutely get thrilled when someone posts how excited they get when they see the man.I actually get excited and reach for my viagra whenever anyone posts anything about his latest and greatest theories.Can someone please!!!!!!!!! spare me the drab, crap that keeps coming from these so called CFS specialisyts.Again I'm sorry if I offend, I'm just bored with all the stuff that's dished up. By the way, I only take viagra to stop me rolling of the bed.merry xmas tony-- In infections , "pjeanneus" <pj7@...> wrote:>> Tony, your post was almost as good as the sermon at church this > morning. I laughed my head off. Unfortunately I don't like beer and > alcohol makes me spacey. I will just have to settle for Recuperation.> > Did I tell you I am on Diflucan for 25 days then penicillin for 2 > weeks? I THINK my headache is beginning to improve. But even more I > think I am herxing on the diflucan. I actually had to stop it for > about 3 days because I was feeling so bad.> > We shall see.> > a> > > >> > a> > Sorry to bend the topic. Unfortunately my business background (that > > spanned 26 years) drove me differently than most on these forums.> > I learnt that when your

going for a diagnosis, as you have in the > > past 8 months.. YOU AIN"T GOING TO GET ANYTHING THAT SATISFACTORILY > > explains your problem/s...I tried to give you a little heads up > that > > you need to go the extra mile otherwise you'll remain in the loop > of > > travelling back and forth to all these appointments.> > I also tried to learn about the importance of INFLAMMATION and how > it > > works and how it's controlled- I had the big bagwhana from the > > unmentionable protocol try teach me how it all falls into place. > > YET!!!!!!! everytime I loose 10 lbs my inflammation levels are so > > UNDER CONTROL..How does a simple explanation like loosing some fat > > get your inflammation so much better under control???It's funny > that > > people's blood glucose levels also fluctuate with weight control. >

My > > mother a diabetic for 20 years had reduced her insulin requirements > > to minute amounts after loosing a lot of weight in one long > hospital > > stay..These simple OBSERVATIONS ain't adequately explained by > anyone. > > Imagine if the fat around your midsection is slowing down THE > > production of hormones required to clamp inflammtion- POSSABLY A > > SIMILAR MODEL TO THAT REQUIRED TO GET YOUR GLUCOSE LEVEL;S RIGHT..> > The bagwhana was not that slim.. > > Then to top it all off we have the glutathione king preaching his > > gospel, 'get your red cells checked fopr glutathione', do yammy > > yaskos' panel of tests for a grand amount possably totalling 2500 > > dollars.How freakin stupid is that. Why would you want to get your > > blood checked for some outstanding CRAP when it's FREAKIN CURDLING > IN

> > YOUR VEINS...Why anyone would not want a video like AW"S to show > the > > world your blood's a fukin mess is beyond me.It cost's 50 cents for > a > > slide and you supply a drop of blood and it's all CLEAR AS DAY> > (FUKED).Also to SCOOT AROUND THE WAY CLUSTER'S OF PEOPLE GOT ILL > AND > > TRY FIT SOME FUKED UP THEORY INTO PLACE, IS CRIMINAL. IMO...> > Sorry about the long post, just had to get some things of my chest. > > My advise to you is get yourself some light beer and drink a few > > litres..You''ll improve your blood volume for a day or two, things > > will work better and you may possably do something you'll regret > > later.> > cheers tony > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Obesity linked to Mix of bacteria in digestive tract. - a > > > Carnes> > > > > > > > > > One woman's editorial reply:> > > > > > > > > > "This is very interesting. Three months ago, my husband, a > > poorly > > > > controlled> > > > > diabetic, had back surgery. He then contracted a hospital-> borne > > > > infection> > > > >

and received long term Vancomycin therapy. Both his weight > and > > > his > > > > blood> > > > > sugar levals declined precipitously to the point that he has > > > > greatly reduced> > > > > his insulin and has to be very careful about low blood > sugars, > > > > which were> > > > > not previously a problem. Could this be relavent?"> > > > > > > > > > <http://www.washingtonpost.com/?nav=pf> washingtonpost.com > > > > > > > > > > Research Links Obesity to Mix of Bacteria in Digestive Tract> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By Rob Stein> > > > > Washington Post Staff Writer> > > > > Thursday, December

21, 2006; A12> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obese people have a distinctive mix of bacteria in their > > > digestive > > > > systems> > > > > that seems to make them prone to gaining weight, a startling > > > > discovery that> > > > > could lead to new ways to fight the obesity epidemic, > > researchers > > > > reported> > > > > yesterday.> > > > > > > > > > Obese people have more digestive microbes that are especially > > > > efficient at> > > > > extracting calories from food, the researchers said, and the > > > > proportion of> > > > > these super-digesting organisms ebbs as the people lose > weight.

> > > > Moreover,> > > > > when the scientists transplanted these bacteria from obese > mice > > > > into lean> > > > > mice, the thin animals start getting fat. This provides more > > > > support for the> > > > > provocative theory that the bacteria that populate the > > intestine > > > > play an> > > > > important role in regulating weight.> > > > > > > > > > "There appears to be a link between obesity and the type of > > bugs > > > in > > > > your> > > > > gut," said I. Gordon of Washington University School > of > > > > Medicine in> > > > > St. Louis, who led the series of experiments being published > in > > > > today's> >

> > > issue of the journal Nature. "The difference in the structure > > of > > > > microbial> > > > > ecology of our gut may set us up for susceptibility to > obesity."> > > > > > > > > > Gordon and his colleagues stressed that more work is needed > to > > > > explore the> > > > > findings. And they cautioned against trying to > manipulate "gut > > > > flora" with> > > > > antibiotics or microbial "probiotic" pills sold in health-> food > > > > stores. But> > > > > if the findings are confirmed and better understood, they > could > > > > lead to> > > > > profound new insights into one of the nation's biggest health > > > > problems, the> > > > > researchers

said.> > > > > > > > > > "In the future, we could potentially manipulate the structure > > and > > > > function> > > > > of these microbial societies as a new approach toward > > preventing > > > and> > > > > treating obesity," Gordon said.> > > > > > > > > > The findings produced enthusiasm and caution from other > > > > researchers. Some> > > > > praised the work for possibly offering a long-sought > > alternative > > > > explanation> > > > > for the obesity epidemic. Perhaps some change, such as a food > > > > additive or> > > > > antibiotic use, has caused a fundamental shift in gut flora, > > > making > > > > it> > > > > easier for many

people to gain weight.> > > > > > > > > > "This is very exciting," said Barbara Corkey, an obesity > > > researcher > > > > at> > > > > Boston University. "We don't know why the obesity epidemic is > > > > happening.> > > > > People say it's because of gluttony and sloth. I think there > > must > > > be> > > > > something else. It's exciting to see some work being done on > > > > alternative> > > > > explanations."> > > > > > > > > > Others suspect that if gut microbes do play a role, it is a > > minor > > > > one.> > > > > > > > > > "This is extremely interesting," said Hans-Rudolf Berthoud of > > the > > > >

Pennington> > > > > Biomedical Research Center in Baton Rouge. "But lifestyle and > > the> > > > > environment are still the major factors in the obesity > > epidemic."> > > > > > > > > > On a broader level, the findings highlight the symbiotic > > > > relationship humans> > > > > maintain with the trillions of microorganisms that populate > our > > > > bodies,> > > > > Gordon and others said.> > > > > > > > > > "This strengthens the notion that the indigenous organisms in > > the > > > > human body> > > > > are probably intimately involved in our health," said > A. > > > > Relman of> > > > > Stanford University. "The ways they are involved remain > >

unclear, > > > > but this> > > > > underscores the idea that it behooves us to figure it out."> > > > > > > > > > Scientists have long known that the human body is teeming > with > > > > germs,> > > > > primarily bacteria, which cover the skin and inhabit every > > > orifice. > > > > By some> > > > > estimates only one out of every 10 cells in the human body is > > > > human. These> > > > > organisms perform a host of functions, especially in the > > > digestive > > > > tract,> > > > > where they help digest food.> > > > > > > > > > "There's growing interest in the idea that humans are more > than > > > > just human> > > > > cells," said Jack

Blaser of New York > University. "These > > > > cells are not> > > > > just passengers. They are part of the human metabolism."> > > > > > > > > > To explore the role of the organisms in weight regulation, > > > Gordon's > > > > team> > > > > first compared the gut flora of 12 obese people to lean > > > subjects'. > > > > The obese> > > > > tended to have a significantly greater proportion of one of > the > > > two > > > > main> > > > > types of bacteria found in the gut, known as Firmicutes, than > > the > > > > other,> > > > > known as Bacteroidetes.> > > > > > > > > > Next, the researchers spent a year meticulously measuring the > > gut

> > > > flora of> > > > > the obese volunteers as they tried to lose weight by eating > low-> > > > calorie> > > > > diets that restricted either their fat or carbohydrate > intake. > > As > > > > volunteers> > > > > lost weight, the proportion of Firmicutes in their digestive > > > tracts > > > > fell and> > > > > the proportion of Bacteroidetes rose, the researchers found.> > > > > > > > > > When the researchers conducted detailed molecular analyses of > > the > > > > two types> > > > > of bacteria in the laboratory, they discovered the Firmicutes > > > were > > > > much> > > > > better at extracting calories from food.> > > > > >

> > > > Moreover, when the researchers examined the gut flora of > obese > > > > laboratory> > > > > mice, they found a similar pattern in their ratios of > > Firmicutes > > > to> > > > > Bacteroidetes. And when researchers transferred gut flora > from > > > > obese mice to> > > > > mice devoid of gut flora, the recipient animals tended to > gain > > > > weight,> > > > > confirming that the pattern was associated with weight gain.> > > > > > > > > > "This attribute of being able to harvest and store more > energy > > > > appeared to> > > > > be transmissible," Gordon said. "For the first time, we see > > that > > > > there is a> > > > > correlation between the

microbial gut ecology and the obese > > > state."> > > > > > > > > > Among other things, the findings could help explain why it > > > becomes > > > > harder> > > > > and harder to lose weight as people get fat, Gordon said.> > > > > > > > > > "That's part of the pathology of obesity. When you shift the > > > amount > > > > of fat> > > > > tissue, the amount of energy you can harvest becomes somewhat > > > > greater, and> > > > > that's going to fuel the obese state," he said.> > > > > > > > > > The researchers acknowledged that the difference in the > number > > of > > > > calories> > > > > extracted by the microbes is relatively small. But over time

> > even > > > a > > > > small> > > > > differential could be significant, they said.> > > > > > > > > > Many questions remain, however. It is unclear what determines > > the > > > > make-up of> > > > > a person's gut flora. It might be the microbes they pick up > > from > > > > their> > > > > mothers; it might be their exposure to antibiotics. It is > also > > > > unclear how> > > > > fat tissue and gut flora might affect one another, and > whether > > > the > > > > change in> > > > > gut bacteria causes or is a result of the weight loss.> > > > > > > > > > Despite those and other questions, scientists said the > findings > > > are

> > > > sure to> > > > > inspire more investigation.> > > > > > > > > > "They open up a completely new hypothesis," said Randy > Seeley, > > an > > > > obesity> > > > > researcher at the University of Cincinnati who wrote a > > commentary> > > > > accompanying the research. "There are a lot of hurdles here > > that > > > we > > > > have to> > > > > deal with in terms of our basic understanding. But it's > > > > fascinating."> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-> > > >

dyn/content/article/2006/12/20/http://stat> > > > > s.surfaid.ihost.com/crc/images/uc.GIF?> > 1.13 & wpost & wpost & noscript> > > > > > > > > > > <http://stats.surfaid.ihost.com/crc/images/uc.GIF?> > > > 1.13 & wpost & wpost & noscript>> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

December 26, 2006

Yo! Tony:

Good advice.

Been there done that - and YES! it worked for me.

'course there was a time when I was alcohol intolerant - and couldn't do

it or my head would explode - and I never touch " light " anything!.

Love that unadulterated Corona Extra (the crap they export from Mexico-

with a surprise alcohol content in each bottle)

Hope you all had a Merry .....

Barb

Tony wrote in part:

Sorry about the long post, just had to get some things of my chest.

My advise to you is get yourself some light beer and drink a few

litres..You''ll improve your blood volume for a day or two, things

will work better and you may possably do something you'll regret

later.

cheers tony

December 26, 2006

Dear Tony and Barb

For years I was intolerant of beer having ben weaned on Resch's but found that when I was in China, could drink the local beer (unadulterated and unknown alcohol content but lightish) and felt the best I had done in years, Back in Aus I have found that Cascade Premium Light is not a bad substitute.

Regards

Windsor

[infections] Re: Obesity linked to mix of bacteria in digestive tract

Yo! Tony:Good advice.Been there done that - and YES! it worked for me.'course there was a time when I was alcohol intolerant - and couldn't doit or my head would explode - and I never touch "light" anything!.Love that unadulterated Corona Extra (the crap they export from Mexico- with a surprise alcohol content in each bottle)Hope you all had a Merry .....BarbTony wrote in part:Sorry about the long post, just had to get some things of my chest.My advise to you is get yourself some light beer and drink a fewlitres..You''ll improve your blood volume for a day or two, thingswill work better and you may possably do something you'll regretlater.cheers tony

December 27, 2006

BArb'

I wasn't joking with PAula at all.I keep reading what she's going

thru and think she needs a few saline IV's a day..By accident due to

living it up I noticed that going hard on the beer gives me a weight

gain of a couple of kilo's which gave me obviously more fluid volume

which helped me to feel even better a day later.I think the long term

dehydration (which isn't measurable) plays an important part in the

bodies ability to heal.. I think as in pregnacy you start to get ill

and throw up because your introducing your immune system to walled

off area's of disease.

This ilness needs to be understood in each persons requirements so

you can form a strategy. Allergy avoidance -foods and environemnt

also mistakenly called mold exposure are a huge part- antimicrobials

delivered correctly are massive and just understanding that the

longer you've been ill the longer and harder your strategies have to

be implemented.

merry xmas tony

By the way, I like the idea that I sweat the beer out the next day at

the gym, makes my skin feel GREAT.

>

> Yo! Tony:

> Good advice.

> Been there done that - and YES! it worked for me.

> 'course there was a time when I was alcohol intolerant - and

couldn't do

> it or my head would explode - and I never touch " light " anything!.

> Love that unadulterated Corona Extra (the crap they export from

Mexico-

> with a surprise alcohol content in each bottle)

> Hope you all had a Merry .....

> Barb

>

> Tony wrote in part:

> Sorry about the long post, just had to get some things of my chest.

> My advise to you is get yourself some light beer and drink a few

> litres..You''ll improve your blood volume for a day or two, things

> will work better and you may possably do something you'll regret

> later.

> cheers tony

>

December 27, 2006

What are you reading into that? I'm comfortable, regardless of the

theory that it dehydrates, that the 2 kilo's fluid gain is

circulating around for possably a couple of extra days. And mind you

a few litres have already been passed so the remaining amount is

doing my blood a world of good.Not to mention that the alcohol breaks

up the slime and crud to introduce your immune system to a whole new

world of mess.

tony

>

> Dear Tony and Barb

> For years I was intolerant of beer having ben weaned on Resch's

but found that when I was in China, could drink the local beer

(unadulterated and unknown alcohol content but lightish) and felt

the best I had done in years, Back in Aus I have found that Cascade

Premium Light is not a bad substitute.

> Regards

> Windsor

> [infections] Re: Obesity linked to mix of

bacteria in digestive tract

>

> Yo! Tony:

> Good advice.

> Been there done that - and YES! it worked for me.

> 'course there was a time when I was alcohol intolerant - and

couldn't do

> it or my head would explode - and I never touch " light " anything!.

> Love that unadulterated Corona Extra (the crap they export from

Mexico-

> with a surprise alcohol content in each bottle)

> Hope you all had a Merry .....

> Barb

>

> Tony wrote in part:

> Sorry about the long post, just had to get some things of my

chest.

> My advise to you is get yourself some light beer and drink a few

> litres..You''ll improve your blood volume for a day or two, things

> will work better and you may possably do something you'll regret

> later.

> cheers tony

>

December 27, 2006

Hi, Tony.

I suspect that this part of your discourse was meant to pertain to

me. I just wanted you to know that I didn't miss it, so you would

know that your effort in writing it was not in vain! And I continue

to be flattered that you are keeping up on developments involving

the Glutathione Depletion--Methylation Cycle Block Hypothesis for

the Pathogenesis of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and the Yasko treatment

approach, even though I'm very clear on the degree of esteem in

which you hold them!

Yes, cost is definitely an issue, and I continue to try to figure

out ways to accomplish what's needed at lower cost.

I want to wish you a very happy new year! And I sincerely hope that

you will be able to help many people with bacteria-related issues in

the coming year. There's no question that there are a lot of them.

Rich

> Then to top it all off we have the glutathione king preaching his

> gospel, 'get your red cells checked fopr glutathione', do yammy

> yaskos' panel of tests for a grand amount possably totalling 2500

> dollars.How freakin stupid is that. Why would you want to get your

> blood checked for some outstanding CRAP when it's FREAKIN CURDLING

IN

> YOUR VEINS...

December 27, 2006

Rich

I didn't expect you to miss it. I just feel EXTREMELY STRONGLY that

by making every effort to discover what is in curdled milk, ain't

going to solve anyone's problems.MY approach is put the milk back in

the fridge!!!- .You have to learn as a researcher to think in

blocks..myself as a boss/technicican had to constantly FORM

STRATEGIES to get to the bottom of problems.There's a simple problem

that everyone in medicine deals with on a daily basis.. DON'T LET THE

PATIENT DEHYDRATE!! OR THE SHIT HITS THE FAN.You come along

completely oblivious to this important facet of health and think

you've nailed something.You can't methylate, you can't absorb certain

things into certain cells etc... I'd also strongly like to add to

that that every organ in your body is incapable of performing

adequately- HENCE THE SHIT HITs THE FAN...How excited do you get when

you read CHENEY? Imagine the guy sits at the heart of a respiratory

pathogen for 30 years at incline village and hasn't even got the

intelligence or desire to run viral, bacterial, or fungal cultures

which many doctors I visit here in australia have the ability to

perform in there desk draws..The fact that many people become ill

after a major event ilness/injury or otherwise doesn't even register

with you. This leads me to my xmas message- You all basically need to

be grounded in your thinking as often as possable, because your

completely in the dark and don't really see people at there ugliest

sitting in there rooms glowing red with flares and inflammation..Also

the fact that none of your group that your monitoring have infections

is an absolute croc of CRAP.97% of patients with cfs have sinus

infecions. Patients outside of cfs circles with sinus infections also

go on and develop DEBILITATING FATIGUE and they are not even aware of

cfs, or the fact that they may fall under this rediculous

umbrella.Not to mention the lower regions of 'waxing and wanning,'

feels like 'fungus'..I THINK I'VE JUST MADE MY OWN BATCH OF FETA

CHEESE STORIES..That's obviously not an infection in your way of

thinking.

enough tony

>

> > Then to top it all off we have the glutathione king preaching his

> > gospel, 'get your red cells checked fopr glutathione', do yammy

> > yaskos' panel of tests for a grand amount possably totalling 2500

> > dollars.How freakin stupid is that. Why would you want to get

your

> > blood checked for some outstanding CRAP when it's FREAKIN

CURDLING

> IN

> > YOUR VEINS...

>

December 27, 2006

Rich

More discourse. You sit on a forum known as cfs experimental and run

all these yada yada yada sessions with people.You don't even

understand first base. CFS is also known as ME, ME stands for myalgic

encephalitis or something like that. This tends to put people in an

area of encepahlitis like problems, whcih low and behold are mainly

caused by viruses. Encephalitis is also known as INFLAMMATION OF THE

BRAIN AND SPINAL CORD...You just spurted something out about a whole

lot of observations of the CFS brain (MRI) and you mentioned all the

stroke spots. Can you see where the curdled blood I'm talking about

makes some sense when your observing all the mini strokes on the

brain I think Cheney theorises.

Also when your a sufferer and you having a rough trot your blood

isn't flowing thru your veins, it's tumbling thru them.

>

> > Then to top it all off we have the glutathione king preaching his

> > gospel, 'get your red cells checked fopr glutathione', do yammy

> > yaskos' panel of tests for a grand amount possably totalling 2500

> > dollars.How freakin stupid is that. Why would you want to get

your

> > blood checked for some outstanding CRAP when it's FREAKIN

CURDLING

> IN

> > YOUR VEINS...

>

December 27, 2006

Tony..

I wasn't joking either.

I think alcohol is good for you ( studies show it IS - in moderation).

But I needed to mention that for several years I couldn't drink it at

all.

Can now though.

Barb

>

> BArb'

> I wasn't joking with PAula at all.

December 27, 2006

Tony Tony Tony.. don't be so dramatic.

I drink half/half - or raw milk/ strained milk from Jersey cows (was

raised on it) and I love it - to this day. And I'd be drinking Goats

milk if I could find a good source (I reaised milk goats for a while -

owing goats is a whole 'nother story).

I drink more milk than beer..it ain't just for babies.

Barb

>

> Rich

> I didn't expect you to miss it. I just feel EXTREMELY STRONGLY that

> by making every effort to discover what is in curdled milk, ain't

> going to solve anyone's problems.MY approach is put the milk back in

> the fridge!!!-

December 27, 2006

Hi, Tony.

I certainly agree that people with CFS have infections. I also

agree that some of the infections need to be dealt with directly.

I also believe that it is important to get the immune system

functioning normally again, so that it can take over and protect

from infections, as it normally does. I suspect that if this isn't

done, more infections will appear, even if one is able to knock down

those currently present. This puts people into an endless treatment

with a variety of antibiotics or other antimicrobials, which can

give them more and more gut problems as the antibiotics also knock

out the beneficial flora in the gut that we depend on for normal gut

health.

In CFS, the immune system is not operating well. It appears that

this dysfunction results in many cases from glutathione depletion,

which shifts the immune response to Th2 and interferes with the cell-

mediated defense against viruses, intracellular bacteria and fungi,

including yeasts, together with a block in the folate cycle, which

prevents the proliferation of T cells. It now looks as though the

glutathione depletion is also what inhibits the production of

perforin by the natural killer cells and the CD-8 killer T cells,

which interferes with their ability to kill infected cells. Both

the glutathione depletion and the folate cycle block now appear to

result from the same basic biochemical problem, that is the vicious

circle involving a block in the methylation cycle, which is

intimately linked to the folate cycle at methionine synthase, and

which is also upstream of cysteine in the sulfur metabolism,

cysteine being the rate-limiting amino acid for making glutathione.

The point of all this is that I think we now have a unifying

hypothesis that pulls together many features of CFS, including the

immune dysfunction. If we can treat the root cause of this

dysfunction, I think that we can help the immune system to shoulder

the burden of keeping down infections so that we won't have to

constantly use antibiotics, antivirals or antifungals, all of which

can cause problems of their own.

Rich

>

> Rich

> I didn't expect you to miss it. I just feel EXTREMELY STRONGLY

that

> by making every effort to discover what is in curdled milk, ain't

> going to solve anyone's problems.MY approach is put the milk back

in

> the fridge!!!- .You have to learn as a researcher to think in

> blocks..myself as a boss/technicican had to constantly FORM

> STRATEGIES to get to the bottom of problems.There's a simple

problem

> that everyone in medicine deals with on a daily basis.. DON'T LET

THE

> PATIENT DEHYDRATE!! OR THE SHIT HITS THE FAN.You come along

> completely oblivious to this important facet of health and think

> you've nailed something.You can't methylate, you can't absorb

certain

> things into certain cells etc... I'd also strongly like to add to

> that that every organ in your body is incapable of performing

> adequately- HENCE THE SHIT HITs THE FAN...How excited do you get

when

> you read CHENEY? Imagine the guy sits at the heart of a

respiratory

> pathogen for 30 years at incline village and hasn't even got the

> intelligence or desire to run viral, bacterial, or fungal cultures

> which many doctors I visit here in australia have the ability to

> perform in there desk draws..The fact that many people become ill

> after a major event ilness/injury or otherwise doesn't even

register

> with you. This leads me to my xmas message- You all basically need

to

> be grounded in your thinking as often as possable, because your

> completely in the dark and don't really see people at there

ugliest

> sitting in there rooms glowing red with flares and

inflammation..Also

> the fact that none of your group that your monitoring have

infections

> is an absolute croc of CRAP.97% of patients with cfs have sinus

> infecions. Patients outside of cfs circles with sinus infections

also

> go on and develop DEBILITATING FATIGUE and they are not even aware

of

> cfs, or the fact that they may fall under this rediculous

> umbrella.Not to mention the lower regions of 'waxing and wanning,'

> feels like 'fungus'..I THINK I'VE JUST MADE MY OWN BATCH OF FETA

> CHEESE STORIES..That's obviously not an infection in your way of

> thinking.

> enough tony

December 27, 2006

Tony,

I don't believe it's as simple as either your theory or Rich's try to

make it, but you both bring something useful to the table.

Most people would react to the tone of your rhetoric with (I think

justifiable) offense. Rich is too much of a gentleman to do that. I

think he's also objective enough to understand that beneath your

inflammatory rhetoric (pun intended) lies a heartfelt desire to help

others.

I don't know how closely you've followed or researched Yasko's protocol

-- probably not very in-depth, but I can tell you that we have paid

very close attention to it as we can't afford to leave any stone

unturned. Like everything else, we borrow what seems useful and ignore

what seems clearly either inapplicable, not feasible, or just plain

un-obtainium. On the down side, even for Yasko's (better established)

autism-specific protocol, to really follow it in practice you have to

consult a dogpile of disorganized forum messages with a flaky search

functionality; and a bewildering welter of books that stretch what the

average non-scientist can comprehend much less the average brain-fried

CFS / ME / MCS person. Also her writing style tends to fall short of

detailed step by step guidance -- I think because she is one of those

geniuses who just assumes that level of explanation is not needed. At

least an autistic kid might have a fairly healthy set of parents to

sort through all this crap; a desperately ill, poor, and often isolated

patient suffering from decades of chronic illness really has a mountain

to climb.

You should hear the cries of frustration, and all the sound of

hair-pulling, of these desperate people trying to get guidance, and

then when they get it, it frequently conflicts with either itself or

with reality. In my wife's case for example by the time you eliminate

the methyl donors, the sulfur donors, the protein, etc., and combine

that with the intersecting foods that she is reactive to and cannot

tolerate in the first place, you end up eating about 6 foods over and

over again. And some people will tell you that doing that will just

make you allergic to those foods (many food allergy theories believe

you must rotate foods in various ways to avoid getting into addiction /

allergy cycles with them). Aside of course from the practical reality

that after eating the same thing for about a month you want to just go

on a water fast and die anyway.

So IMO that part of the Yasko protocol, however valid it may be for

some, is not going to work for us, and I suspect for a lot of others.

Some of the other aspects of it are also very problematic. For

example, trying to titrate 186 different supplements, and always with

the scimitar hanging over your head that if you use some brand that Amy

hasn't evaluated / endorsed or (ahem) sells, then failure of the

protocol may be blamed on your choice of brands. After all the

testing, analysis, and recommendations, the only parts of the

"nutritional bypass" that my wife could stand were a few things that

almost without exception she was ALREADY ingesting.

All that said, there is one very promising nugget amidst the Yasko

blizzard that we think is worth further investigation. That is BH4. I

have not followed this list closely enough to know how much it's been

discussed here, so will not go into details unless someone asks ... but

BH4 in small doses has given my wife back a significant bit of health /

vitality / resiliency AND has restored her near-nonexistent

neurotransmitter balance, albeit shakily. Before BH4, she was

literally coming apart at the seams, structurally -- her tendons and

ligaments seemed to be made of jello and the slightest jolt would

render joints inoperable, cause muscle spasms, etc. After just a

couple of days on BH4 this improved greatly.

Titration is critical -- in my wife's case, one sixteenth of a pill is

just right -- too much and it causes massive inflammatory response,

probably because the body is enabled to and/or has the energy to

recognize and go after infections it's been ignoring. Too little, and

there's no benefit. Others take up to an eight or a quarter of a pill

at a time. Through the grapevine we hear that BH4 has been of

significant help to others as well. It is too early to tell if it's

another flash-in-the-pan that will be effective only for a time, but it

has given us the first elbow-room we have had in months to try hitting

her system with some anti-parasite ammo (Alinia), and some abx

(starting with Xifaxin and hopefully progressing to Biaxin, Ceftin and

/or injected Bicillin).

There are some other pieces to help with detox symptoms that we are

finding somewhat useful too, but they get into an area of energy

medicine that denizens of this list may or may not be comfortable with.

So in our case, yes, we think that it will take abx to put her over the

top, but she has to be able to detox those abx and the die-off they

cause. For those who are desperately ill enough, simply going in with

guns blazing is unwise.

As a final note, Cheney's theory about the Patent Foramen Ovale (PFO)

is gaining currency with us because it absolutely explains some of the

problems / symptoms suffers. Like a lot of nice theories,

though, it isn't terribly actionable in that there really is no fix for

it, nor a clear consensus on why the problem develops in the first

place. Rich has a pretty good idea, I think, that it is due to a

cascade of effects connected with Glutathione deficiency, but every

form of Glutathione supplementation we've tried -- injected,

liposomial, you name it -- either has no effect, or a detrimental

effect. Even Cheney admits that supplementation isn't helpful or

practical, although he was at one time an advocate of Glutathione

supplementation.

Bottom line ... everyone has their blind spots, strengths and

weaknesses. I would agree more with Tony in a perfect world where

everyone catches the problem soon enough before their health is too far

gone, and where labs and doctors alike were both aware and competent

(alas, not usually the case). I would agree with Rich more in a

perfect world where complex multi-factorial chronic illness did not

have quite so many variables and interactions / complications. However

I am glad you are both hammering away at it in your own ways.

Best,

--Bob

dumbaussie2000 wrote:

Rich

I didn't expect you to miss it. I just feel EXTREMELY STRONGLY that

by making every effort to discover what is in curdled milk, ain't

going to solve anyone's problems.MY approach is put the milk back in

the fridge!!!- .You have to learn as a researcher to think in

blocks..myself as a boss/technicican had to constantly FORM

STRATEGIES to get to the bottom of problems.There's a simple