Re: Yasko, infection, antibiotics attn Bob

[Guest guest]

Penny,

I doubt there is a lab we haven't run tests at, one time or another.

At any rate there is not any problem establishing that she has

infections. Some flavors of doctors would discount some of the results

anyway (those unfamiliar with mycoplasma, or with the distinctions

between HHV6a and b, for instance. Certainly, those who have to see a

raging fever or a festering pustule to agree there is an infection and

that abx are warranted).

My wife has at various times been a patient of both sen and

Cheney, the twin fathers of CFS clinical research. sen we found

to be more interested in collecting exotic test data than in acting on

it, and at least at the time we saw him, had the most disorganized

medical practice I've ever encountered. Cheney helped 10 or 15% --

he's the one that got her started on hydroxycobalmin and magnesium

injections, which she finds helpful to this day -- but dropped us when

he went away for his heart transplant some years back. Which led us to

the current lead doc, about whom I will write more below.

There is little to no chance she is currently being exposed to mold.

Our house has had all carpeting removed and replaced with tile. We

have gotten rid of everything that was even remotely suspicious, keep

very little in the way of books or paperwork as we find they tend to

get a little flaky over time, mold-wise (the current version of

PaperPort software combined with a good scanner work wonders), and we

have the house tested annually for mold, including both mold plates and

infrared scans checking for leaks in ceiling or plumbing. Mold

exposure was the start of the MCS problems about 6 years ago, but

living as we do in the Sonoran Desert, mold was fortunately relatively

easy to deal with, compared to the ubiquitous VOCs in the environment

and in every consumer product known to man. Try to buy clothes for

yourself if you're a universal reactor -- or a computer, or a bed.

Everything becomes a Manhattan Project, I can tell you.

Yes, she took Cipro many years ago for a persistent kidney infection

(prescribed by a local kidney specialist), and that's when the tendon

problems started. Fixed the kidneys alright, and broke the knees. We

figured that out in short order, but it's one of those deals where it

never entirely went away, and now it's become a weak spot in her

system. It seems to be another way that any kind of general

inflammatory response manifests now. Her immune system tends to have

only two settings, "off" and "all the way on", which doesn't help.

I don't dispute that Yasko is basically a waste of time and money,

though I think her work has potential to mature into something more

useful and cost-effective. Yasko has at least provided some framework

for understanding some of the symptomatology and a few clues and tools

for us, but she really does not live up to her billing in practice. At

least for us.

As for the BH4, $4 a pill is a lot by some measures, but remember in my

wife's case each dose is a sixteenth of a pill so it goes a lot farther

than some things we've endured. Considering the clear benefits so far

it's well worth about $8 a month. And for all that Yasko disappointed,

if BH4 continues to be effective over time, it will be worth it all for

that one bit of progress. In fact as bad as her spirits were sagging

lately, it may well end up saving her life.

We have picked up other hard-won bits and pieces here and there ...

it's a struggle but we keep synthesizing and hope to find the way out

of the woods eventually.

We really have no issue with her current doctor and in some ways don't

see how we could improve on him. He is the only doctor we've ever met

who can walk across a room without tripping over his ego. He listens

to and respects patients. He is very knowledgeable and incredibly

patient. I have taken him as my own physician and he has done wonders

for me with long term abx to treat Lyme and RA. He was worth the trip

to California.

He is not afraid of using abx, as such ... just reluctant with my wife,

because she is a universal reactor and he feels (with considerable

justification) that she is too frail to handle the die-off. The only

reason we had to push him was because we had to convince him that we

are willing to do a "kill or cure" "Hail " pass here. Desperate

people do desperate things.

I do not wish to discuss names on the list but if anyone is interested

in checking out this doc, back-channel me and I'll give you his name.

He's in the San Francisco area.

Best,

--Bob

pjeanneus wrote:

Bob wrote:

My wife has several varieties of mycoplasma, HHV6, chlamydia

pneumonia, and a few others. These are diagnoses from blood tests at

various times over the past 7 or 8 years, many of them recently

reconfirmed. Abx are from her MD, with some prodding from us.

Hi Bob,

I am sorry your wife is so terribly sick. I have more questions.

Where were her tests run?

What are the chances she is being constantly exposed to mold?

What antibiotics has she been on? I ask this critical question

because you described her severe tendon pain. Has she always had the

tendon pain since she first got sick or has it worsened?

What MDs has she seen in diagnosing and treating her?

I tend to agree with Tony that Yasko's treatment is basically a waste

of time and money at this point. Until she gets a clear picture of

what works to fix what issues (She thinks they are genetic, I don't

care what she calls them) you are using a shotgun approach, and the

pellets cost a LOT.

Last time I asked what antibiotics she was using I think the reply

was samento. Give me a break. That is simply an natural quinolone.

Does it work? Maybe, and maybe it causes harm. Natural stuff isn't

any safer than synthetic stuff.

Someone on this list might be able to find you a better doctor to

see. For instance there are some good doctors who are following Dr.

Chuck Stratton's protocol for treating C. pneumoniae with good

results.

I hope we can be of help.

a Carnes

[Guest guest]

Hey Bob,

I took Levaquin and Avalox over 3 years ago and had knee tendon

problems ever since. However, this past year I started two things

that have helped. One is Recuperation which I buy from Spain. I have

no idea why it has finally helped my tendons.

The other is that I got balance therapy for a separate problem. The

balance therapy just happened to help my tendons in my knees. I think

I know why. It was exercise that involved doing nothing but standing

still on one foot or doing a tandem stance with my eyes closed for 3

hours a week. The standing still didn't strain the tendon but enabled

it to finally rebuild. This may help your wife, but start for short

times frames. She can eventually balance on a foam rubber pad which

makes it harder.

No, it doesn't sound like you have a mold problem in your house. I

also live in the desert - Las Vegas - but I am thinking now that I

need to get some of the books out of my house.

Keep us posted on how things go for you.

a Carnes

>

> Penny,

>

> I doubt there is a lab we haven't run tests at, one time or

another. At

> any rate there is not any problem establishing that she has

infections.

> Some flavors of doctors would discount some of the results anyway

(those

> unfamiliar with mycoplasma, or with the distinctions between HHV6a

and

> b, for instance. Certainly, those who have to see a raging fever

or a

> festering pustule to agree there is an infection and that abx are

> warranted).

>

> My wife has at various times been a patient of both sen and

Cheney,

> the twin fathers of CFS clinical research. sen we found to be

more

> interested in collecting exotic test data than in acting on it, and

at

> least at the time we saw him, had the most disorganized medical

practice

> I've ever encountered. Cheney helped 10 or 15% -- he's the one

that got

> her started on hydroxycobalmin and magnesium injections, which she

finds

> helpful to this day -- but dropped us when he went away for his

heart

> transplant some years back. Which led us to the current lead doc,

about

> whom I will write more below.

>

> There is little to no chance she is currently being exposed to

mold.

> Our house has had all carpeting removed and replaced with tile. We

have

> gotten rid of everything that was even remotely suspicious, keep

very

> little in the way of books or paperwork as we find they tend to get

a

> little flaky over time, mold-wise (the current version of PaperPort

> software combined with a good scanner work wonders), and we have

the

> house tested annually for mold, including both mold plates and

infrared

> scans checking for leaks in ceiling or plumbing. Mold exposure was

the

> start of the MCS problems about 6 years ago, but living as we do in

the

> Sonoran Desert, mold was fortunately relatively easy to deal with,

> compared to the ubiquitous VOCs in the environment and in every

consumer

> product known to man. Try to buy clothes for yourself if you're a

> universal reactor -- or a computer, or a bed. Everything becomes a

> Manhattan Project, I can tell you.

>

> Yes, she took Cipro many years ago for a persistent kidney

infection

> (prescribed by a local kidney specialist), and that's when the

tendon

> problems started. Fixed the kidneys alright, and broke the knees.

We

> figured that out in short order, but it's one of those deals where

it

> never entirely went away, and now it's become a weak spot in her

> system. It seems to be another way that any kind of general

> inflammatory response manifests now. Her immune system tends to

have

> only two settings, " off " and " all the way on " , which doesn't help.

>

> I don't dispute that Yasko is basically a waste of time and money,

> though I think her work has potential to mature into something more

> useful and cost-effective. Yasko has at least provided some

framework

> for understanding some of the symptomatology and a few clues and

tools

> for us, but she really does not live up to her billing in

practice. At

> least for us.

>

> As for the BH4, $4 a pill is a lot by some measures, but remember

in my

> wife's case each dose is a sixteenth of a pill so it goes a lot

farther

> than some things we've endured. Considering the clear benefits so

far

> it's well worth about $8 a month. And for all that Yasko

disappointed,

> if BH4 continues to be effective over time, it will be worth it all

for

> that one bit of progress. In fact as bad as her spirits were

sagging

> lately, it may well end up saving her life.

>

> We have picked up other hard-won bits and pieces here and there ...

it's

> a struggle but we keep synthesizing and hope to find the way out of

the

> woods eventually.

>

> We really have no issue with her current doctor and in some ways

don't

> see how we could improve on him. He is the only doctor we've ever

met

> who can walk across a room without tripping over his ego. He

listens to

> and respects patients. He is very knowledgeable and incredibly

> patient. I have taken him as my own physician and he has done

wonders

> for me with long term abx to treat Lyme and RA. He was worth the

trip

> to California.

>

> He is not afraid of using abx, as such ... just reluctant with my

wife,

> because she is a universal reactor and he feels (with considerable

> justification) that she is too frail to handle the die-off. The

only

> reason we had to push him was because we had to convince him that

we are

> willing to do a " kill or cure " " Hail " pass here. Desperate

people

> do desperate things.

>

> I do not wish to discuss names on the list but if anyone is

interested

> in checking out this doc, back-channel me and I'll give you his

name.

> He's in the San Francisco area.

>

> Best,

>

> --Bob

[Guest guest]

-

PAula And BOb

12 year olds in africa were given quinolones and all that survived

there meningitis attacks have ongoing knee problems. They were used

as guinea pigs by big pharma, and the doctors that useed the

conventional antibiotics probably had more luck than the quinolone

usage group.They actually sacrificed lives to push there drug trial

and it was just what we all strongly feel, a fuken useless antibiotic

that never cures anyone of anything hence ostiomyelitis treatment is

never recommending this drug.

tony

-- In infections , " pjeanneus "

<pj7@...> wrote:

>

> Hey Bob,

> I took Levaquin and Avalox over 3 years ago and had knee tendon

> problems ever since. However, this past year I started two things

> that have helped. One is Recuperation which I buy from Spain. I

have

> no idea why it has finally helped my tendons.

>

> The other is that I got balance therapy for a separate problem. The

> balance therapy just happened to help my tendons in my knees. I

think

> I know why. It was exercise that involved doing nothing but

standing

> still on one foot or doing a tandem stance with my eyes closed for

3

> hours a week. The standing still didn't strain the tendon but

enabled

> it to finally rebuild. This may help your wife, but start for short

> times frames. She can eventually balance on a foam rubber pad which

> makes it harder.

>

> No, it doesn't sound like you have a mold problem in your house. I

> also live in the desert - Las Vegas - but I am thinking now that I

> need to get some of the books out of my house.

>

> Keep us posted on how things go for you.

>

> a Carnes

>

> >

> > Penny,

> >

> > I doubt there is a lab we haven't run tests at, one time or

> another. At

> > any rate there is not any problem establishing that she has

> infections.

> > Some flavors of doctors would discount some of the results anyway

> (those

> > unfamiliar with mycoplasma, or with the distinctions between

HHV6a

> and

> > b, for instance. Certainly, those who have to see a raging fever

> or a

> > festering pustule to agree there is an infection and that abx are

> > warranted).

> >

> > My wife has at various times been a patient of both sen and

> Cheney,

> > the twin fathers of CFS clinical research. sen we found to

be

> more

> > interested in collecting exotic test data than in acting on it,

and

> at

> > least at the time we saw him, had the most disorganized medical

> practice

> > I've ever encountered. Cheney helped 10 or 15% -- he's the one

> that got

> > her started on hydroxycobalmin and magnesium injections, which

she

> finds

> > helpful to this day -- but dropped us when he went away for his

> heart

> > transplant some years back. Which led us to the current lead

doc,

> about

> > whom I will write more below.

> >

> > There is little to no chance she is currently being exposed to

> mold.

> > Our house has had all carpeting removed and replaced with tile.

We

> have

> > gotten rid of everything that was even remotely suspicious, keep

> very

> > little in the way of books or paperwork as we find they tend to

get

> a

> > little flaky over time, mold-wise (the current version of

PaperPort

> > software combined with a good scanner work wonders), and we have

> the

> > house tested annually for mold, including both mold plates and

> infrared

> > scans checking for leaks in ceiling or plumbing. Mold exposure

was

> the

> > start of the MCS problems about 6 years ago, but living as we do

in

> the

> > Sonoran Desert, mold was fortunately relatively easy to deal

with,

> > compared to the ubiquitous VOCs in the environment and in every

> consumer

> > product known to man. Try to buy clothes for yourself if you're

a

> > universal reactor -- or a computer, or a bed. Everything becomes

a

> > Manhattan Project, I can tell you.

> >

> > Yes, she took Cipro many years ago for a persistent kidney

> infection

> > (prescribed by a local kidney specialist), and that's when the

> tendon

> > problems started. Fixed the kidneys alright, and broke the

knees.

> We

> > figured that out in short order, but it's one of those deals

where

> it

> > never entirely went away, and now it's become a weak spot in her

> > system. It seems to be another way that any kind of general

> > inflammatory response manifests now. Her immune system tends to

> have

> > only two settings, " off " and " all the way on " , which doesn't help.

> >

> > I don't dispute that Yasko is basically a waste of time and

money,

> > though I think her work has potential to mature into something

more

> > useful and cost-effective. Yasko has at least provided some

> framework

> > for understanding some of the symptomatology and a few clues and

> tools

> > for us, but she really does not live up to her billing in

> practice. At

> > least for us.

> >

> > As for the BH4, $4 a pill is a lot by some measures, but remember

> in my

> > wife's case each dose is a sixteenth of a pill so it goes a lot

> farther

> > than some things we've endured. Considering the clear benefits

so

> far

> > it's well worth about $8 a month. And for all that Yasko

> disappointed,

> > if BH4 continues to be effective over time, it will be worth it

all

> for

> > that one bit of progress. In fact as bad as her spirits were

> sagging

> > lately, it may well end up saving her life.

> >

> > We have picked up other hard-won bits and pieces here and

there ...

> it's

> > a struggle but we keep synthesizing and hope to find the way out

of

> the

> > woods eventually.

> >

> > We really have no issue with her current doctor and in some ways

> don't

> > see how we could improve on him. He is the only doctor we've

ever

> met

> > who can walk across a room without tripping over his ego. He

> listens to

> > and respects patients. He is very knowledgeable and incredibly

> > patient. I have taken him as my own physician and he has done

> wonders

> > for me with long term abx to treat Lyme and RA. He was worth the

> trip

> > to California.

> >

> > He is not afraid of using abx, as such ... just reluctant with my

> wife,

> > because she is a universal reactor and he feels (with

considerable

> > justification) that she is too frail to handle the die-off. The

> only

> > reason we had to push him was because we had to convince him that

> we are

> > willing to do a " kill or cure " " Hail " pass here. Desperate

> people

> > do desperate things.

> >

> > I do not wish to discuss names on the list but if anyone is

> interested

> > in checking out this doc, back-channel me and I'll give you his

> name.

> > He's in the San Francisco area.

> >

> > Best,

> >

> > --Bob

>

[Guest guest]

Bob,

Can she get in a warm swimming pool? Is there one available? That

would be my only other thought of safe gradual rebuilding of the

tendons. I HATE QUINOLONES.

Your report on the books seems to fit my house. I have my theology

text books that are 30 years old, and they do not seem to bother me.

But all the newer stuff, especially books checked out of the library

seem to be awful. I have cleared all the books and magazines out of

our bedroom area.

a C.

>

> a,

>

> Thanks for the thoughts and ideas.

>

> My wife takes Recuperation. Hasn't helped the tendons in her case

but

> has been marginally helpful for some of the neurological symptoms.

> Interestingly a different electrolyte formula with a different

balance

> of components (in particular, considerable phosphorus) was quite

bad for

> her.

>

> As for the balancing trick, thanks, but there's no balance to work

> with. She can't stand up on both feet with her eyes closed for

more

> than about 5 seconds without falling over. That however is pretty

> typical of CFIDS patients. Deep brain injuries impacting balance

> develop fairly early.

>

> Regarding books ... the quality of paper on which they are printed

has

> steadily declined over the years. They seem to go " musty " more

rapidly

> than they used to. At first we though it was just cross-

contamination

> from books we brought with us from the damper climate of Michigan

years

> ago, but after eliminating those we've become convinced that any

book

> more than a couple of years old just sops up even the modest

ambient

> moisture, and in time, gets questionable. The ones that

smell " pulpy "

> even when new are the worst. In addition, they cross-contaminate

easily

> with perfumes and other ambient VOCs, so due to the MCS we have

learned

> to avoid books that have sat in warehouses and bookstores for

years. If

> the copyright is prior to about 2002 it is unlikely to be something

she

> wants to open and sit with. Lastly, many inks are problematic for

MCS.

>

> After awhile it's hard to tell if you're dealing with mold, toxic

inks

> or coatings, cottonseed oil, binding glues, or what ... who cares,

it's

> just not worth the trouble.

>

> We are both avid readers but have cut down our " population " of

books 75%

> or better. There are very few books I'd read more than once, at

least

> not frequently enough that I couldn't just buy another copy if I

ever

> wanted to re-read. And thanks to e-books, there are more and more

> titles I can read electronically. We now regularly resell paper

books

> we're done with on Amazon. It's easy and generally you get a

> significant percentage of the original cost recovered. And some

lucky

> soul who doesn't have MCS concerns can enjoy the savings of a used

book.

>

> Best,

>

> --Bob

>

> pjeanneus wrote:

> >

> > Hey Bob,

> > I took Levaquin and Avalox over 3 years ago and had knee tendon

> > problems ever since. However, this past year I started two things

> > that have helped. One is Recuperation which I buy from Spain. I

have

> > no idea why it has finally helped my tendons.

> >

> > The other is that I got balance therapy for a separate problem.

The

> > balance therapy just happened to help my tendons in my knees. I

think

> > I know why. It was exercise that involved doing nothing but

standing

> > still on one foot or doing a tandem stance with my eyes closed

for 3

> > hours a week. The standing still didn't strain the tendon but

enabled

> > it to finally rebuild. This may help your wife, but start for

short

> > times frames. She can eventually balance on a foam rubber pad

which

> > makes it harder.

> >

> > No, it doesn't sound like you have a mold problem in your house. I

> > also live in the desert - Las Vegas - but I am thinking now that I

> > need to get some of the books out of my house.

> >

> > Keep us posted on how things go for you.

> >

> > a Carnes

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Bob

I know PAula means well but you really want to get some serious

scans of your wifes head and with a bit of luck you may be able to

observe the massive infection that makes her life so miserable.You

really need something concrete to actually focus on in her condition,

as opposed to focusing on pool sessions, or foot baths.

I think the effort to understand the brain-spine-sinus-thyroid

inflammation angel may be the only sensible approach..THIS as opposed

to the opposite view of going to a seminar with a bunch of doo gooder

fuckwits that don't have the slightest idea what this ilness really

is and listening to a whole lot of crap..Even a needs a slap on

the wrist in these issues because she is so tickwitted that she wrote

a book and suffers something that doesn't fit her strongest beliefs.

tony

> > > >

> > > > Hey Bob,

> > > > I took Levaquin and Avalox over 3 years ago and had knee

tendon

> > > > problems ever since. However, this past year I started two

things

> > > > that have helped. One is Recuperation which I buy from Spain.

I

> > have

> > > > no idea why it has finally helped my tendons.

> > > >

> > > > The other is that I got balance therapy for a separate

problem.

> > The

> > > > balance therapy just happened to help my tendons in my knees.

I

> > think

> > > > I know why. It was exercise that involved doing nothing but

> > standing

> > > > still on one foot or doing a tandem stance with my eyes closed

> > for 3

> > > > hours a week. The standing still didn't strain the tendon but

> > enabled

> > > > it to finally rebuild. This may help your wife, but start for

> > short

> > > > times frames. She can eventually balance on a foam rubber pad

> > which

> > > > makes it harder.

> > > >

> > > > No, it doesn't sound like you have a mold problem in your

house. I

> > > > also live in the desert - Las Vegas - but I am thinking now

that I

> > > > need to get some of the books out of my house.

> > > >

> > > > Keep us posted on how things go for you.

> > > >

> > > > a Carnes

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Aw come on, Tony. I am not recommending a swimming pool as a cure for

cfs as Dr. Cheney does. Give me a break.

Furthermore some of us have scans that look perfectly normal. It

sounds to me like Bob's wife is a pretty tough case.

But thanks for mentioning that I wrote a book. It is not about

treatment but about how one keeps living and fighting when one has

lost one's life. I should have put you in the book, because I think

your attitude is a life saver. You are so over the top that I just

can't get offended. One of my poems is called " Go for the King. " It's

about how you can get all the pawns you want but you won't win until

you focus on getting the king. Same with these illness - have to find

the cause, not just wander around in the pool.

a

http://www.aCarnes.com

>

> Bob

> I know PAula means well but you really want to get some serious

> scans of your wifes head and with a bit of luck you may be able to

> observe the massive infection that makes her life so miserable.You

> really need something concrete to actually focus on in her

condition,

> as opposed to focusing on pool sessions, or foot baths.

> I think the effort to understand the brain-spine-sinus-thyroid

> inflammation angel may be the only sensible approach..THIS as

opposed

> to the opposite view of going to a seminar with a bunch of doo

gooder

> fuckwits that don't have the slightest idea what this ilness really

> is and listening to a whole lot of crap..Even a needs a slap on

> the wrist in these issues because she is so tickwitted that she

wrote

> a book and suffers something that doesn't fit her strongest beliefs.

>

> tony

[Guest guest]

Bob

I read your wife's experiences, and after her stint on cipro, then

everything collapses.. You mention not being able to detox. The whole

body has become similar to a patient suffering 3rd degree burns in

there circulation. You sit here and talk 450 pathway and sludge. I

will tell you from personal experience you could peel veins away from

major skeletal area's for a long time let alone a single pathway. I

describe myself to my doctor as a burns patient needing to restore

his circulation so that simple things like getting gases out of the

body can occur. I also mention to him that every human body needs to

get things out. I also mention to him that with out this ability

things remain in your circulation and your heart jumps around like a

hog that's been tied up ready to be slaughtered.(that's the country

coming out in me)..

Also I never ever assume what I suffer everyone suffers..I'm just

well read on all autoimmne matters.Actually I was probably the first

person to tell people oin a cfs forum they are suffering the exact

same disseminated disease as LYME PEOPLE ON LYME FORUMS..

This got me thrown off a few forums.

I also stress to you to get your wifes head scanned because you no

longer need to put up with no answers at every docs appointment. You

go SEE THIS! IT " S FROM HERE STRAIGHT INTO THE BRAIN...Mcs is a severe

form of allergy you respond to everything. The mold avoidance group

supercharged?Did this occur after her cipro experience...That drug

will change your bugs around and once they develop cipro resistance

they get extra jumpy..

tony the texan

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hey Bob,

> > > > > > I took Levaquin and Avalox over 3 years ago and had knee

> > tendon

> > > > > > problems ever since. However, this past year I started two

> > things

> > > > > > that have helped. One is Recuperation which I buy from

Spain.

> > I

> > > > have

> > > > > > no idea why it has finally helped my tendons.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The other is that I got balance therapy for a separate

> > problem.

> > > > The

> > > > > > balance therapy just happened to help my tendons in my

knees.

> > I

> > > > think

> > > > > > I know why. It was exercise that involved doing nothing

but

> > > > standing

> > > > > > still on one foot or doing a tandem stance with my eyes

closed

> > > > for 3

> > > > > > hours a week. The standing still didn't strain the tendon

but

> > > > enabled

> > > > > > it to finally rebuild. This may help your wife, but start

for

> > > > short

> > > > > > times frames. She can eventually balance on a foam rubber

pad

> > > > which

> > > > > > makes it harder.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No, it doesn't sound like you have a mold problem in your

> > house. I

> > > > > > also live in the desert - Las Vegas - but I am thinking

now

> > that I

> > > > > > need to get some of the books out of my house.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Keep us posted on how things go for you.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > a Carnes

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

a

You Know we have spent years on this and other forums warning that

you need to go the extra mile with testing otherwise you become

caught up on the treadmill of CRAP-one specialsit to another.We keep

saying you need modern smart scans that may possably show infections

going thru the sinuses and into the brain, or uncomfortably close to

the brain.Your recent experiences is what we keep warning about. You

think your scans are NORMAL. As bad as they may have been performed

other people reading them may still gleen some light on what your

suffering.

tony

>

> Aw come on, Tony. I am not recommending a swimming pool as a cure

for

> cfs as Dr. Cheney does. Give me a break.

>

> Furthermore some of us have scans that look perfectly normal. It

> sounds to me like Bob's wife is a pretty tough case.

>

> But thanks for mentioning that I wrote a book. It is not about

> treatment but about how one keeps living and fighting when one has

> lost one's life. I should have put you in the book, because I think

> your attitude is a life saver. You are so over the top that I just

> can't get offended. One of my poems is called " Go for the King. "

It's

> about how you can get all the pawns you want but you won't win

until

> you focus on getting the king. Same with these illness - have to

find

> the cause, not just wander around in the pool.

>

> a

> http://www.aCarnes.com

>

>

> >

> > Bob

> > I know PAula means well but you really want to get some serious

> > scans of your wifes head and with a bit of luck you may be able

to

> > observe the massive infection that makes her life so

miserable.You

> > really need something concrete to actually focus on in her

> condition,

> > as opposed to focusing on pool sessions, or foot baths.

> > I think the effort to understand the brain-spine-sinus-thyroid

> > inflammation angel may be the only sensible approach..THIS as

> opposed

> > to the opposite view of going to a seminar with a bunch of doo

> gooder

> > fuckwits that don't have the slightest idea what this ilness

really

> > is and listening to a whole lot of crap..Even a needs a slap

on

> > the wrist in these issues because she is so tickwitted that she

> wrote

> > a book and suffers something that doesn't fit her strongest

beliefs.

> >

> > tony

>

[Guest guest]

Bob

I go to the gym everyday and ride the exercise bike for 35 to 45

minutes to detox. I also think that getting your blood volume up and

keeping it there is another way of getting things detoxing.Spa baths

can aid this somewhat .. BAths in general short circuit bacterial

communication vicious cycles and can keep things quiet.You also have

to slim down and watch what you put into your body that stimulates

this toxin production.And if she is getting heaps of slime going down

her throat your watching the whole system GLUG UP, as that slime just

blocks up everything.

With CIPRO I'm thinking she ran into trouble after using it...In

other words she gave herself a whole new set of problems due to the

after effects. Something like a superinfection occuring after using

the wrong drug.

tony

> >

> >

> > The mold avoidance group

> > supercharged?Did this occur after her cipro experience...That drug

> > will change your bugs around and once they develop cipro

resistance

> > they get extra jumpy..

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I suspect this may be the problem with alot of people that can no

longer take abx.. or certain substances - without a reaction.

Almost everything goes thru our poor liver (50% of prescription drugs

are metabolized thru the P450 system - and the other 50% does thru

the biliary or kidney).

Bob- is your wife over weight? Can she at least tolerate a sauna (to

sweat?) Can she get around at all (SOrry I can't find your post about

her)

Barb

PS your a good guy- I know plenty of significant others who relaly

don't give a crap about their sick other half.

Bob Wrote in part:

THE. INABILITY.

TO. D

> E T O X. Many abx (and many other useful drugs) follow the P-450

detox

> pathway, which in my wife, happens to be broken and ineffectual.

The

> result of ignoring this fact and administering such drugs anyway,

is

> something akin to inducing porphyria. You have to fix the pathway

> and/or reduce the toxic burden before you can proceed. If you

don't,

> you risk toxic shock and possibly death. Actually that would be

the

> *merciful* outcome.

>

> Tony, you know a lot of facts about infections and abx and tests

and

> pathogen burdens. Whether you've clearly integrated those facts

into

> something coherent, sometimes I wonder. But I credit you for being

> knowledgeable. However you don't know jack shit about MCS and

detox

> pathways and should not open your mouth about things you know

nothing about.

>

> --Bob

[Guest guest]

OK- Now I read about your wife.

Bob- I don't have alot of time right now- but when you get a chance-

look up DSLD in horses- it's a tendon repair problem (disease) and

AAKG is being used sucessfully.

I'll do some looking and email you at a later date.

Barb

> > My wife has several varieties of mycoplasma, HHV6, chlamydia

> > pneumonia, and a few others. These are diagnoses from blood tests

at

> > various times over the past 7 or 8 years, many of them recently

> > reconfirmed. Abx are from her MD, with some prodding from us.

> >

> > Hi Bob,

> > I am sorry your wife is so terribly sick. I have more questions.

> >

> > Where were her tests run?

> >

> > What are the chances she is being constantly exposed to mold?

> >

> > What antibiotics has she been on? I ask this critical question

> > because you described her severe tendon pain. Has she always had

the

> > tendon pain since she first got sick or has it worsened?

> >

> > What MDs has she seen in diagnosing and treating her?

> >

> > I tend to agree with Tony that Yasko's treatment is basically a

waste

> > of time and money at this point. Until she gets a clear picture of

> > what works to fix what issues (She thinks they are genetic, I

don't

> > care what she calls them) you are using a shotgun approach, and

the

> > pellets cost a LOT.

> >

> > Last time I asked what antibiotics she was using I think the reply

> > was samento. Give me a break. That is simply an natural quinolone.

> > Does it work? Maybe, and maybe it causes harm. Natural stuff isn't

> > any safer than synthetic stuff.

> >

> > Someone on this list might be able to find you a better doctor to

> > see. For instance there are some good doctors who are following

Dr.

> > Chuck Stratton's protocol for treating C. pneumoniae with good

> > results.

> >

> > I hope we can be of help.

> >

> > a Carnes

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Tony, I think you know this but Cipro is toxic to cells all by

itself. It doesn't need to create resistant bacteria to do its

damage. Quinolones are poison.

a Carnes

>

> Bob

> I go to the gym everyday and ride the exercise bike for 35 to 45

> minutes to detox. I also think that getting your blood volume up

and

> keeping it there is another way of getting things detoxing.Spa

baths

> can aid this somewhat .. BAths in general short circuit bacterial

> communication vicious cycles and can keep things quiet.You also

have

> to slim down and watch what you put into your body that stimulates

> this toxin production.And if she is getting heaps of slime going

down

> her throat your watching the whole system GLUG UP, as that slime

just

> blocks up everything.

>

> With CIPRO I'm thinking she ran into trouble after using it...In

> other words she gave herself a whole new set of problems due to the

> after effects. Something like a superinfection occuring after using

> the wrong drug.

> tony

[Guest guest]

PAula

It's a bit hard to make a blanket statement quinolones are poison. I

just KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE that this drug DOESN " T CLEAR

INFECTIONS.Most doctors dealing with bone infection never ever have

this drug in there arsenal.I mean BOb should go back and belt the

crap out of that nephrologist because his wifes kidney infection

which was possably an ACUTE presentation at the time is now A CHRONIC

INFECTION due to medical negligence on his behalf. LAZY ASS USELESS

MOTHER FUCKERS. I just spoke to a girl last night that had been given

weight reduction pills by her doctor whom also diagnosed her with a

kidney infection and she spent the week in hospital getting it FIXED

PROPERLY..It's these fuken arseholes that practise lazy ass medicine

that leave the patient chronic and don't really care- that annoys me-

and people like Bob WHO THINK THEY HAVE A HANDLE ON THERE WIFES

disease also pisses me off. He's sitting there thinking his wife has

developed 150 problems not that one problem has led to 150

manifestations. We had a Bob on another forum with a chronically ill

wife and he kept bringing all the doctor speak crap to the forum and

playing mister intellectual reciting the biggest lot of crap.He's the

type that would sit pretty with Rich and YAsko treatments and all the

surrounding following up of crap it invites.

How different an approach it becomes, and is necessary, when I simply

call my ilness ME and explain to people I have encephalitis and my

brain is inflammed..

Also PAula the other quinolones don't manifest the same problems so

the fact that you used cipro levaquin and got major pronblems is more

the way the organisms targeted are mutated more so than the drug

itself.I would often see colony variants that would grow up like

pimples in the culture plate under the influence of this drug. So you

may have 1000's of external and internal sites growing large colonies

like pimples of nasty variants under the influence of this drug..When

you use tequin nothing like this occurs and it doesn't have any known

problems with a similar slightly altered quinolone formula...It

basdically doesn't show any strange variants.So a quinolone that has

none of the side effects as opposed to a quinolone which has many due

to POSSABLY THIS PHENOMENA.

tony

>

> Tony, I think you know this but Cipro is toxic to cells all by

> itself. It doesn't need to create resistant bacteria to do its

> damage. Quinolones are poison.

>

> a Carnes

> >

> > Bob

> > I go to the gym everyday and ride the exercise bike for 35 to 45

> > minutes to detox. I also think that getting your blood volume up

> and

> > keeping it there is another way of getting things detoxing.Spa

> baths

> > can aid this somewhat .. BAths in general short circuit bacterial

> > communication vicious cycles and can keep things quiet.You also

> have

> > to slim down and watch what you put into your body that

stimulates

> > this toxin production.And if she is getting heaps of slime going

> down

> > her throat your watching the whole system GLUG UP, as that slime

> just

> > blocks up everything.

> >

> > With CIPRO I'm thinking she ran into trouble after using it...In

> > other words she gave herself a whole new set of problems due to

the

> > after effects. Something like a superinfection occuring after

using

> > the wrong drug.

> > tony

>

[Guest guest]

Tony,

You are wrong on this one. All the quinolones have the same risk

factors. They are all poison just as cancer therapy is toxic. That

doesn't mean one should never use quinolones, just that personally I

would use any other possible antibiotic first.

I spoke with a scientist from Cubist at a biotech conf and asked him

about the tendon damage. Cubist had just gotten a new quinolone

approved. His reply was, " They are all toxic. We just put them in the

body and hope they kill the germs before they harm the person. "

a Carnes

>

> PAula

> It's a bit hard to make a blanket statement quinolones are poison.

I

> just KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE that this drug DOESN " T CLEAR

> INFECTIONS.Most doctors dealing with bone infection never ever have

> this drug in there arsenal.I mean BOb should go back and belt the

> crap out of that nephrologist because his wifes kidney infection

> which was possably an ACUTE presentation at the time is now A

CHRONIC

> INFECTION due to medical negligence on his behalf. LAZY ASS USELESS

> MOTHER FUCKERS. I just spoke to a girl last night that had been

given

> weight reduction pills by her doctor whom also diagnosed her with a

> kidney infection and she spent the week in hospital getting it

FIXED

> PROPERLY..It's these fuken arseholes that practise lazy ass

medicine

> that leave the patient chronic and don't really care- that annoys

me-

> and people like Bob WHO THINK THEY HAVE A HANDLE ON THERE WIFES

> disease also pisses me off. He's sitting there thinking his wife

has

> developed 150 problems not that one problem has led to 150

> manifestations. We had a Bob on another forum with a chronically

ill

> wife and he kept bringing all the doctor speak crap to the forum

and

> playing mister intellectual reciting the biggest lot of crap.He's

the

> type that would sit pretty with Rich and YAsko treatments and all

the

> surrounding following up of crap it invites.

> How different an approach it becomes, and is necessary, when I

simply

> call my ilness ME and explain to people I have encephalitis and my

> brain is inflammed..

> Also PAula the other quinolones don't manifest the same problems so

> the fact that you used cipro levaquin and got major pronblems is

more

> the way the organisms targeted are mutated more so than the drug

> itself.I would often see colony variants that would grow up like

> pimples in the culture plate under the influence of this drug. So

you

> may have 1000's of external and internal sites growing large

colonies

> like pimples of nasty variants under the influence of this

drug..When

> you use tequin nothing like this occurs and it doesn't have any

known

> problems with a similar slightly altered quinolone formula...It

> basdically doesn't show any strange variants.So a quinolone that

has

> none of the side effects as opposed to a quinolone which has many

due

> to POSSABLY THIS PHENOMENA.

> tony

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Tony, I think you know this but Cipro is toxic to cells all by

> > itself. It doesn't need to create resistant bacteria to do its

> > damage. Quinolones are poison.

> >

> > a Carnes

> > >

> > > Bob

> > > I go to the gym everyday and ride the exercise bike for 35 to

45

> > > minutes to detox. I also think that getting your blood volume

up

> > and

> > > keeping it there is another way of getting things detoxing.Spa

> > baths

> > > can aid this somewhat .. BAths in general short circuit

bacterial

> > > communication vicious cycles and can keep things quiet.You also

> > have

> > > to slim down and watch what you put into your body that

> stimulates

> > > this toxin production.And if she is getting heaps of slime

going

> > down

> > > her throat your watching the whole system GLUG UP, as that

slime

> > just

> > > blocks up everything.

> > >

> > > With CIPRO I'm thinking she ran into trouble after using

it...In

> > > other words she gave herself a whole new set of problems due to

> the

> > > after effects. Something like a superinfection occuring after

> using

> > > the wrong drug.

> > > tony

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I knew the difference from sweating when I was breaking a fever and a

hot flash. I monitored my temperature a minimum of 3X perday- and

know that when I had a hot flash- I did not have an internal body

temp rise - but I did have predeeding some sweats- and I assumed

this was fever. I had so many fevers - I only knew I had one when I

started feeling disconnected- and sometime's it'd be as high as 100

to 100.5 to 101. def F.

My night sweat stained my white sheet orange-ish color.

I haven't had these (fever/sweating) problems since I took Artemis

for Malaria (or Babesia) which ever it was I had - I tested positive

IgM for Babesia - which may also cross reaact with Malaria- so I'll

never really know which I had.

I don't beleive (in my case anyway) my fevers or sweating was due to

Lyme.

My normal low body temp for years(about 96.8 to 97.4) I think could

have been due to either Babs/Malaria or Lyme. That has normalized to

98.6 since my abx treatment. I think all bugs like a low temp.

I was also chemical sensitive, metal sensitive, food sensitive - and

just had an extremely narrow operating tolerance in general- go

outside of that and wham-O I was sick.

I also had swollen and painfull Lymph nodes - some so bad my clothes

hurt them...and of course there was more.. so I do have some idea of

what your wife is going through.

Getting the crap out of her blood and lymph is very important- you

have to find some way of doing that. I have read that dialysis will

reverse lupus (if you beleive in lupus) and IMO that's becuase it's

removing the toxins and crap from the blood.

Unfortunately - if you can't find a way to clean up what's in her

body- it will become a little toxic dump (including whats in the fat

cells)- and it gets very hard to reverse.

Barb

> >

> >

> > Bob- is your wife over weight? Can she at least tolerate a sauna

(to

> > sweat?) Can she get around at all

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

a:

Some people can take them- some can't. There are some people who

think all abx are toxic to the body.

Maybe someday we'll have the technology to run a P450 panel on

everyone before they take abx- so we'll know which ones will be

detrimental to us BEFORE we take them.

Right now it's a crap shoot- and everyone must decide the risks for

themselves. I've taken plenty - but am vigilant when I do so

hopefully stop something before it's too late.

Not everyone's body metabolizes the same.

P450 profiles would be a great thing. I know they can do it now, but

it's not a wide spread practice.

ALL ANTIBIOTICS have a side effect. You have to weigh them all.

Barb

> > >

> > > Tony, I think you know this but Cipro is toxic to cells all by

> > > itself. It doesn't need to create resistant bacteria to do its

> > > damage. Quinolones are poison.

> > >

> > > a Carnes

> > > >

> > > > Bob

> > > > I go to the gym everyday and ride the exercise bike for 35 to

> 45

> > > > minutes to detox. I also think that getting your blood volume

> up

> > > and

> > > > keeping it there is another way of getting things

detoxing.Spa

> > > baths

> > > > can aid this somewhat .. BAths in general short circuit

> bacterial

> > > > communication vicious cycles and can keep things quiet.You

also

> > > have

> > > > to slim down and watch what you put into your body that

> > stimulates

> > > > this toxin production.And if she is getting heaps of slime

> going

> > > down

> > > > her throat your watching the whole system GLUG UP, as that

> slime

> > > just

> > > > blocks up everything.

> > > >

> > > > With CIPRO I'm thinking she ran into trouble after using

> it...In

> > > > other words she gave herself a whole new set of problems due

to

> > the

> > > > after effects. Something like a superinfection occuring after

> > using

> > > > the wrong drug.

> > > > tony

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb,

I agree with you. I didn't say no one should ever take quinolones. I

said all quinolones are toxic. So is all aspirin. The crime is that

MDs are not aware of the huge risks and do not try other antibiotics

first, nor do they adequately warn their patients.

The only reason I waste my time posting and reposting about

quinolones is that I would hate for what happened to me and thousands

of other patients to happen to anyone whom I could warn of the risk.

Buyer beware. If you must take quinolones, including samento and

Lariam, try to increase your magnesium which research seems to

indicate is the missing predictor of damage. Quinolone damage is CELL

damage, not liver damage. Those who are harmed are those with low

magnesium levels, as far as we now know. This puts cfs and Lyme

patients at increased risk, especially when joint pain and CNS damage

are already the signs of LYME and CFS. This makes the risks of

quinolones much greater, as they cannot be spotted. Also, remember

that some of us with even a few days of quinolones do not recover for

years.

If you are sick of me posting this, then just agree with me. LOL

a Carnes

>

> a:

>

> Some people can take them- some can't. There are some people

who

> think all abx are toxic to the body.

>

> Maybe someday we'll have the technology to run a P450 panel on

> everyone before they take abx- so we'll know which ones will be

> detrimental to us BEFORE we take them.

> Right now it's a crap shoot- and everyone must decide the risks for

> themselves. I've taken plenty - but am vigilant when I do so

> hopefully stop something before it's too late.

>

> Not everyone's body metabolizes the same.

>

> P450 profiles would be a great thing. I know they can do it now,

but

> it's not a wide spread practice.

>

> ALL ANTIBIOTICS have a side effect. You have to weigh them all.

>

> Barb

[Guest guest]

a

I've taken megadoses of cipro and believe me everything went with the

drugs ability to kill or it's inability to kill. I could take a cipro

when it was resistant to my organisms and I didn't flicker.But when

the organisms hit you with a wave of rebound, your on your ass.

The other irony of this drug was it's ability to make my friends

blood thickness go from a 2-1 I and R to an 18-1 which meant just

about beeding out from anywhere.I really feel many drugs are often

accused of causing side effects that we already know come from under

our autoimune umbrella.Look I'm not saying anyone got it wrong or

right with this drug it's just frustrating that it lives a lie and

really doesn't cure too much as many conventional drugs did 30 to 40

years ago. This is a line of drugs to satisfy lazy ass doctors to not

spend anytime treating patients correctly with IV's...And the

fuckwits that still use it when they know full well the patient gets

a small window of positiveness, should be belted or better still

stoned.

> > >

> > > Tony, I think you know this but Cipro is toxic to cells all by

> > > itself. It doesn't need to create resistant bacteria to do its

> > > damage. Quinolones are poison.

> > >

> > > a Carnes

> > > >

> > > > Bob

> > > > I go to the gym everyday and ride the exercise bike for 35 to

> 45

> > > > minutes to detox. I also think that getting your blood volume

> up

> > > and

> > > > keeping it there is another way of getting things

detoxing.Spa

> > > baths

> > > > can aid this somewhat .. BAths in general short circuit

> bacterial

> > > > communication vicious cycles and can keep things quiet.You

also

> > > have

> > > > to slim down and watch what you put into your body that

> > stimulates

> > > > this toxin production.And if she is getting heaps of slime

> going

> > > down

> > > > her throat your watching the whole system GLUG UP, as that

> slime

> > > just

> > > > blocks up everything.

> > > >

> > > > With CIPRO I'm thinking she ran into trouble after using

> it...In

> > > > other words she gave herself a whole new set of problems due

to

> > the

> > > > after effects. Something like a superinfection occuring after

> > using

> > > > the wrong drug.

> > > > tony

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

PAula

You had a swipe at aspirin? Do you realise ladies that abused this

drug are 50% less likely to get many forms of cancer?Do you realise

that salicylic acid would kill tuberculosis and possably kept 33% of

sufferers alive that would have died- this was before they come up

with a drug regime.

>

> Hi Barb,

> I agree with you. I didn't say no one should ever take quinolones.

I

> said all quinolones are toxic. So is all aspirin. The crime is that

> MDs are not aware of the huge risks and do not try other

antibiotics

> first, nor do they adequately warn their patients.

>

> The only reason I waste my time posting and reposting about

> quinolones is that I would hate for what happened to me and

thousands

> of other patients to happen to anyone whom I could warn of the risk.

>

> Buyer beware. If you must take quinolones, including samento and

> Lariam, try to increase your magnesium which research seems to

> indicate is the missing predictor of damage. Quinolone damage is

CELL

> damage, not liver damage. Those who are harmed are those with low

> magnesium levels, as far as we now know. This puts cfs and Lyme

> patients at increased risk, especially when joint pain and CNS

damage

> are already the signs of LYME and CFS. This makes the risks of

> quinolones much greater, as they cannot be spotted. Also, remember

> that some of us with even a few days of quinolones do not recover

for

> years.

>

> If you are sick of me posting this, then just agree with me. LOL

>

> a Carnes

> >

> > a:

> >

> > Some people can take them- some can't. There are some people

> who

> > think all abx are toxic to the body.

> >

> > Maybe someday we'll have the technology to run a P450 panel

on

> > everyone before they take abx- so we'll know which ones will be

> > detrimental to us BEFORE we take them.

> > Right now it's a crap shoot- and everyone must decide the risks

for

> > themselves. I've taken plenty - but am vigilant when I do so

> > hopefully stop something before it's too late.

> >

> > Not everyone's body metabolizes the same.

> >

> > P450 profiles would be a great thing. I know they can do it now,

> but

> > it's not a wide spread practice.

> >

> > ALL ANTIBIOTICS have a side effect. You have to weigh them all.

> >

> > Barb

>

[Guest guest]

Tony, give me a break. How about this. I love aspirin. I have taken

it for years. I am aware that it can cause stomach bleeding.

I love quinolones. Anyone can take them who wants to. Just be aware

that they can cause tendon damage and CNS damage which can continue

for years after taking quinolones.

Is it possible that some on this list can get my point? Please, y'all

have a nice day and enjoy the new year while I continue at 4 years

trying to restore my tendons and my ability to walk - a problem I

NEVER had prior to quinolones. I'm probably crazy too since taking

quinolones. LOL

a Carnes

>

> PAula

> You had a swipe at aspirin? Do you realise ladies that abused this

> drug are 50% less likely to get many forms of cancer?Do you realise

> that salicylic acid would kill tuberculosis and possably kept 33%

of

> sufferers alive that would have died- this was before they come up

> with a drug regime.

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Hi Barb,

> > I agree with you. I didn't say no one should ever take

quinolones.

> I

> > said all quinolones are toxic. So is all aspirin. The crime is

that

> > MDs are not aware of the huge risks and do not try other

> antibiotics

> > first, nor do they adequately warn their patients.

> >

> > The only reason I waste my time posting and reposting about

> > quinolones is that I would hate for what happened to me and

> thousands

> > of other patients to happen to anyone whom I could warn of the

risk.

> >

> > Buyer beware. If you must take quinolones, including samento and

> > Lariam, try to increase your magnesium which research seems to

> > indicate is the missing predictor of damage. Quinolone damage is

> CELL

> > damage, not liver damage. Those who are harmed are those with low

> > magnesium levels, as far as we now know. This puts cfs and Lyme

> > patients at increased risk, especially when joint pain and CNS

> damage

> > are already the signs of LYME and CFS. This makes the risks of

> > quinolones much greater, as they cannot be spotted. Also,

remember

> > that some of us with even a few days of quinolones do not recover

> for

> > years.

> >

> > If you are sick of me posting this, then just agree with me. LOL

> >

> > a Carnes

> > >

> > > a:

> > >

> > > Some people can take them- some can't. There are some

people

> > who

> > > think all abx are toxic to the body.

> > >

> > > Maybe someday we'll have the technology to run a P450 panel

> on

> > > everyone before they take abx- so we'll know which ones will be

> > > detrimental to us BEFORE we take them.

> > > Right now it's a crap shoot- and everyone must decide the risks

> for

> > > themselves. I've taken plenty - but am vigilant when I do so

> > > hopefully stop something before it's too late.

> > >

> > > Not everyone's body metabolizes the same.

> > >

> > > P450 profiles would be a great thing. I know they can do it

now,

> > but

> > > it's not a wide spread practice.

> > >

> > > ALL ANTIBIOTICS have a side effect. You have to weigh them all.

> > >

> > > Barb

> >

>

[Guest guest]

a

I'm sharing some strong personal experiences with these drugs. I have

taken 16 aspro's back to back and the stomach doesn't say boo..When

you take a couple- ABSOLUTELY!! it gets irritated, but when you have

a mission of major body repair and know that you need to push the

envelope- these drugs don't perform the nasty side effects that are

more often than not underlying disease that no-one is addressing.So

As much as I have no problem with anything you post, alongside I just

shared my own personal experiences that don't really add up to

anything medicine serves up as fact. more often than not.I don't

think anyone that's on these forums has a gastro intestinal system

they would be proud of.

As far as the cipro's. I needed to know what amount kills people and

I think they tried like 54 pills in dogs and the dog survived.That's

got nothing to do with your pet hate the tendon damage and cns damage

but there's a lot wrong with just aging that isn't being consided or

coming into any equation..The most important mission anyone has

on these forums is to try and get a tailored, positive, protocol in

place that keeps on improving them at the end of each month.

So you want to be able to look back or keep a diary and make sure the

movements are forward and steady as she goes.I just don't really

think the quinolone group of drugs fits this equation.

Cheers tony

> > >

> > > Hi Barb,

> > > I agree with you. I didn't say no one should ever take

> quinolones.

> > I

> > > said all quinolones are toxic. So is all aspirin. The crime is

> that

> > > MDs are not aware of the huge risks and do not try other

> > antibiotics

> > > first, nor do they adequately warn their patients.

> > >

> > > The only reason I waste my time posting and reposting about

> > > quinolones is that I would hate for what happened to me and

> > thousands

> > > of other patients to happen to anyone whom I could warn of the

> risk.

> > >

> > > Buyer beware. If you must take quinolones, including samento

and

> > > Lariam, try to increase your magnesium which research seems to

> > > indicate is the missing predictor of damage. Quinolone damage

is

> > CELL

> > > damage, not liver damage. Those who are harmed are those with

low

> > > magnesium levels, as far as we now know. This puts cfs and Lyme

> > > patients at increased risk, especially when joint pain and CNS

> > damage

> > > are already the signs of LYME and CFS. This makes the risks of

> > > quinolones much greater, as they cannot be spotted. Also,

> remember

> > > that some of us with even a few days of quinolones do not

recover

> > for

> > > years.

> > >

> > > If you are sick of me posting this, then just agree with me. LOL

> > >

> > > a Carnes

> > > >

> > > > a:

> > > >

> > > > Some people can take them- some can't. There are some

> people

> > > who

> > > > think all abx are toxic to the body.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe someday we'll have the technology to run a P450

panel

> > on

> > > > everyone before they take abx- so we'll know which ones will

be

> > > > detrimental to us BEFORE we take them.

> > > > Right now it's a crap shoot- and everyone must decide the

risks

> > for

> > > > themselves. I've taken plenty - but am vigilant when I do so

> > > > hopefully stop something before it's too late.

> > > >

> > > > Not everyone's body metabolizes the same.

> > > >

> > > > P450 profiles would be a great thing. I know they can do it

> now,

> > > but

> > > > it's not a wide spread practice.

> > > >

> > > > ALL ANTIBIOTICS have a side effect. You have to weigh them

all.

> > > >

> > > > Barb

> > >

> >

>