Re: spine and inflammation: Tony more questions

[Guest guest]

Sandy

Your basically a carrier of OPURTUNISTIC INFECTIOUS BACTERIA which

showed up in your nasal cultures.. Your not sick until the

oppurtunity is presented to these bacteria to get a better hold. What

your not going to get the medical establishment to believe is that

bacteria can give you problems, withjout you running up an extreme

fever... unfortunately bacteria haven't been taught the rules and

they do what they want.Also the time when you would spike the fevers

no-one really explored where the problem may lie and the damage and

subsequent non fever ilness becomes a non medical

acknwlegdgement/treatment time bomb... which basically keeps

manifesting in many strange ways that no-one can ever explain to you.

The fact that you owned and brushed down horses really puts you in a

bind- especiually if they were ill. The organims you'd be exposed to

are staph epi, staph areus and pseudonomas which are dominating the

surface of many humans/animals on the planet..I'll horses may have

lead you to acquire ilness causing organisms. Even treated horses

expose you to mutated bacteria that are oppurtunistic in nature.

> > >

> > > I just wondered about this discussion.

> > > When I first got sick in 1987 the first real bad feeling was

flu

> > > like achy and all over weakness.

> > >

> > > A few months later I could not stay awake. This was beyond

> fatigue

> > > but just so sleepy that I could sleep for days and then could

> > barley

> > > wake up to shower.

> > >

> > > Some time before those things felt so bad I developed some

> painful

> > > neck and shoulder pains.

> > > I was give a couple of shots of cortizone back then and I was

> first

> > > told it was bursitis then later tendonitis.

> > >

> > > Through the years of developing more and more symptoms with

> these I

> > > do have daily burning neck and shoulder pain.

> > >

> > > It was not until the summer of 2000 that so many different

pains

> > got

> > > so bad.

> > > A couple of years ago I woke up with same neck pain but a few

> days

> > > into it the pain radiated down my arm.

> > >

> > > This got worse and the only way to get relife was to keep my

arm

> > > over my head.

> > > This felt like a deep cramp that ran up my arm down to my

> fingers.

> > >

> > > I went to see a chiropractor that took this seriously.

> > > He did x rays and said I had a pinched nerve he called it

> > radiopathy.

> > > The xrays also showed spurs and degenerative disk dx.

> > > After a couple of weeks the pain got under control. I still

have

> > > numbness in two fingers and weakness with that arm.

> > >

> > > Sometime last year my MD had me have a cervical MRI that showed

> > > cervical spindylosis with joints of Lushka hypertrophy at C5-6

> and

> > > C6-7.

> > > Encroachment on the neural foramina more severe on the right

> than

> > > left.

> > > The radiopathy was on the other side.

> > > MD wanted me to see a neuro surgeon for a evaluation and after

a

> > few

> > > more months of burning neck and shoulder pain I got up the

nerve

> to

> > > see one more person that calls there self a Dr.

> > >

> > > The neuro surgeon ordered PT and a lumbar MRI.

> > >

> > > I have feet that are cold all the time and they feel just like

> they

> > > are painful with a feeling that is a sorness.

> > >

> > > . I ask him the neuro surgeon back pain could cause this and

> he

> > > ordered a lumbar MRI and PT for lumbar.

> > > It showedL3-4 diffuse posterior bulge and right lateral disc

> > > protrusion.

> > > L4-5 diffuse posterior bulge mild facet arthropathy bilaterally.

> > > L5-S1 diffuse posterior bulge .

> > > Both deep tendon reflexes are dead. Some of the arm ones are

> > > dulling.

> > > These things are getting worse some days I almost can't feel my

> > arms

> > > but they do hurt.

> > > My feet hurt every day and are so cold that I burned a small

> hole

> > in

> > > my calf with the heating pad. I feel asleep.

> > >

> > > I tested positive for lyme dx almost three years ago. None of

> the

> > > antibiotics seem to help except ramifin did back in the winter.

> > > I used it for 30 days. I just started a another 30 days of it.

> > >

> > > I had high fibrinogen, and high fragment 1+2, and then factor

II

> > > activity was high through HEMEX.

> > >

> > > For over 20 years I have been getting a herpes rash on my

> tailbone

> > > and now my tailbone has some hard bone that I can feel that

> keeps

> > > growing.

> > > It didn't show up on xray.

> > > That hurts sometimes and I know that there is a knot there

> because

> > > my husband can feel it. I can not sit in a bathtub without it

> > > making me have to sit on one side. I don't understand why it

> does

> > > not show up on xray. It is getting larger.

> > >

> > > Something else that I keep reading on this forum I had two

> positive

> > > staph cultures from my nose back in 1973 and they said I was a

> > > carrier.

> > >

> > > I don't have any root canals and only three amalgams.

> > > I have had good teeth.

> > > I did have a horse give me a concussion a few months before all

> the

> > > flu like achy weakness started and I don't know how long I was

> > > knocked out. The Dr I went to for lyme was the only Dr to ever

> > > mention jarring your putitary gland.

> > >

> > > I have taken several different antibiotics so how do you know

> which

> > > one you need?

> > >

> > > Thanks I hope I didn't ask to many questions.

> > > sandy

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Bob:

Absolutely not.

I hear ya. That's not the answer.

ANyway- all my food, chemical and metal sensitivites went away post

Lyme therapy... and it was not related to all the dust, dirt and

manure I am around every day...

Lyme/Babesia (or malaria- i'll never know for sure) suppressed part

of my immune system (low Lymphocytes) and simultaneously cause it to

be hyper-sensitive to alot of other theings (food and chemicals

mostly).

I'm 58- and grew up on a farm - and had all the childhood diseases

(so produced natual immunity) - genetically I think my ancestors are

strong (farmers and invaders). The only vaccination I've ever had is

for small pox and polio- that was oral) I *DO* this we over

vaccinate our children and our animals- We need to choose which ones

to get wisely.

I think I had a very strong perfectly functioning immune system

before a blood transfusion of tainted blood flipped it into a disease

state (undx's for 27+ years).

The amazing thing is that I responded to Lyme.Malaria therapy, and my

immune system is working again after 30 years of *not* working .

Shows me how determined our bodies are at a cellular level to work

correctly.

Just have to find the right therapy and not totally screw yourself up

with the wrong drugs..

and I mean by that- that if I had taken the drugs the Drs. wanted me

to take with the autoimmune dx's I was getting- I'd of been dead long

ago... or weight 200 lbs more than I do and in a wheel chair.

Barb

>

> Practically speaking, Tony, what do we do then? Sell our pets, and

live

> in a bubble?

and wrote in part:

I would not suggest, as did one of my wife's (former) doctors, that

it's horrible to have a pet parrot, and to get rid of the filthy

thing. I mean, that damned parrot is one reason she's still alive.

You need things to live for, and you need to be needed. You can only

lose so much and still have a reason to go on.

[Guest guest]

Bob

Your missing the point! We are here to LEARN. What I suggested to

Sandy was just a precaution, If your sick and not well, or are well

and don't want to get sick, just keep this in mind.It's like if you

work in an aboittoir you need to familiarise yourself with what is

going on... good and BAD.

I am here to give you what I have encountered on a platter... I have

nothing to hide and love to throw in commonsense whenever it makes

sense to the subject discussed.What you should have noticed in recent

posts is that our spines are generally not great, I also think the

attacjhemnet point to the skull and the bony surfaces of the skull

(sinuses) ain't nothing to right home about.Basically as bad as the

spine is the skull ain't holding that much more excitement for me..I

basically thimnk we frequently leak spinal fluid from our skull or

spine and have headaches from this phenomena and we also have

bacteria entering our brain cavity form the same structural

breakdown... creating all sorts of havoc.

If you want to follow a philosospher join the cfs experimental site

and follow the puke richie dishes up about genetics and yasko and

stuff. At this site all I can tell you is drop everything your doing

to help your wife and get her head scanned at Dr. moser phoenix

arizona and drop everything everyones told you to focus on REAL

DAMAGE that LEADS TO REAL ILNESS that gives you a real goal to

achieve..( VISABLE INFECTION IN A DETAILED SCAN)..The healing can

only begin after this type of visual diagmnosis is made and

understood?

tony

> > > > >

> > > > > I just wondered about this discussion.

> > > > > When I first got sick in 1987 the first real bad feeling was

> > flu

> > > > > like achy and all over weakness.

> > > > >

> > > > > A few months later I could not stay awake. This was beyond

> > > fatigue

> > > > > but just so sleepy that I could sleep for days and then

could

> > > > barley

> > > > > wake up to shower.

> > > > >

> > > > > Some time before those things felt so bad I developed some

> > > painful

> > > > > neck and shoulder pains.

> > > > > I was give a couple of shots of cortizone back then and I

was

> > > first

> > > > > told it was bursitis then later tendonitis.

> > > > >

> > > > > Through the years of developing more and more symptoms with

> > > these I

> > > > > do have daily burning neck and shoulder pain.

> > > > >

> > > > > It was not until the summer of 2000 that so many different

> > pains

> > > > got

> > > > > so bad.

> > > > > A couple of years ago I woke up with same neck pain but a

few

> > > days

> > > > > into it the pain radiated down my arm.

> > > > >

> > > > > This got worse and the only way to get relife was to keep my

> > arm

> > > > > over my head.

> > > > > This felt like a deep cramp that ran up my arm down to my

> > > fingers.

> > > > >

> > > > > I went to see a chiropractor that took this seriously.

> > > > > He did x rays and said I had a pinched nerve he called it

> > > > radiopathy.

> > > > > The xrays also showed spurs and degenerative disk dx.

> > > > > After a couple of weeks the pain got under control. I still

> > have

> > > > > numbness in two fingers and weakness with that arm.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sometime last year my MD had me have a cervical MRI that

showed

> > > > > cervical spindylosis with joints of Lushka hypertrophy at

C5-6

> > > and

> > > > > C6-7.

> > > > > Encroachment on the neural foramina more severe on the right

> > > than

> > > > > left.

> > > > > The radiopathy was on the other side.

> > > > > MD wanted me to see a neuro surgeon for a evaluation and

after

> > a

> > > > few

> > > > > more months of burning neck and shoulder pain I got up the

> > nerve

> > > to

> > > > > see one more person that calls there self a Dr.

> > > > >

> > > > > The neuro surgeon ordered PT and a lumbar MRI.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have feet that are cold all the time and they feel just

like

> > > they

> > > > > are painful with a feeling that is a sorness.

> > > > >

> > > > > . I ask him the neuro surgeon back pain could cause this and

> > > he

> > > > > ordered a lumbar MRI and PT for lumbar.

> > > > > It showedL3-4 diffuse posterior bulge and right lateral disc

> > > > > protrusion.

> > > > > L4-5 diffuse posterior bulge mild facet arthropathy

bilaterally.

> > > > > L5-S1 diffuse posterior bulge .

> > > > > Both deep tendon reflexes are dead. Some of the arm ones are

> > > > > dulling.

> > > > > These things are getting worse some days I almost can't

feel my

> > > > arms

> > > > > but they do hurt.

> > > > > My feet hurt every day and are so cold that I burned a small

> > > hole

> > > > in

> > > > > my calf with the heating pad. I feel asleep.

> > > > >

> > > > > I tested positive for lyme dx almost three years ago. None

of

> > > the

> > > > > antibiotics seem to help except ramifin did back in the

winter.

> > > > > I used it for 30 days. I just started a another 30 days of

it.

> > > > >

> > > > > I had high fibrinogen, and high fragment 1+2, and then

factor

> > II

> > > > > activity was high through HEMEX.

> > > > >

> > > > > For over 20 years I have been getting a herpes rash on my

> > > tailbone

> > > > > and now my tailbone has some hard bone that I can feel that

> > > keeps

> > > > > growing.

> > > > > It didn't show up on xray.

> > > > > That hurts sometimes and I know that there is a knot there

> > > because

> > > > > my husband can feel it. I can not sit in a bathtub without

it

> > > > > making me have to sit on one side. I don't understand why it

> > > does

> > > > > not show up on xray. It is getting larger.

> > > > >

> > > > > Something else that I keep reading on this forum I had two

> > > positive

> > > > > staph cultures from my nose back in 1973 and they said I

was a

> > > > > carrier.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't have any root canals and only three amalgams.

> > > > > I have had good teeth.

> > > > > I did have a horse give me a concussion a few months before

all

> > > the

> > > > > flu like achy weakness started and I don't know how long I

was

> > > > > knocked out. The Dr I went to for lyme was the only Dr to

ever

> > > > > mention jarring your putitary gland.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have taken several different antibiotics so how do you

know

> > > which

> > > > > one you need?

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks I hope I didn't ask to many questions.

> > > > > sandy

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Penny'

You know I don't do anything by half. I am the worst of the worst

when it comes to fibromyalgia/cfs and suffering.. so I may often

sound extreme, but only because I strongly feel I lived thru most of

what i rant about.

Penny Bacteria sliding down thje back of your throat are very drawn

to many substances which are capable of colouring the cells of the

bacteria in your slime... This ain't a pretty picture as you can

often light up a shit load of bugs and get a better idea of what your

dsealing with......

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I just wondered about this discussion.

> > > > > > When I first got sick in 1987 the first real bad feeling

was

> > > flu

> > > > > > like achy and all over weakness.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A few months later I could not stay awake. This was beyond

> > > > fatigue

> > > > > > but just so sleepy that I could sleep for days and then

> could

> > > > > barley

> > > > > > wake up to shower.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Some time before those things felt so bad I developed some

> > > > painful

> > > > > > neck and shoulder pains.

> > > > > > I was give a couple of shots of cortizone back then and I

> was

> > > > first

> > > > > > told it was bursitis then later tendonitis.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Through the years of developing more and more symptoms

with

> > > > these I

> > > > > > do have daily burning neck and shoulder pain.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It was not until the summer of 2000 that so many different

> > > pains

> > > > > got

> > > > > > so bad.

> > > > > > A couple of years ago I woke up with same neck pain but a

> few

> > > > days

> > > > > > into it the pain radiated down my arm.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This got worse and the only way to get relife was to keep

my

> > > arm

> > > > > > over my head.

> > > > > > This felt like a deep cramp that ran up my arm down to my

> > > > fingers.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I went to see a chiropractor that took this seriously.

> > > > > > He did x rays and said I had a pinched nerve he called it

> > > > > radiopathy.

> > > > > > The xrays also showed spurs and degenerative disk dx.

> > > > > > After a couple of weeks the pain got under control. I

still

> > > have

> > > > > > numbness in two fingers and weakness with that arm.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sometime last year my MD had me have a cervical MRI that

> showed

> > > > > > cervical spindylosis with joints of Lushka hypertrophy at

> C5-6

> > > > and

> > > > > > C6-7.

> > > > > > Encroachment on the neural foramina more severe on the

right

> > > > than

> > > > > > left.

> > > > > > The radiopathy was on the other side.

> > > > > > MD wanted me to see a neuro surgeon for a evaluation and

> after

> > > a

> > > > > few

> > > > > > more months of burning neck and shoulder pain I got up the

> > > nerve

> > > > to

> > > > > > see one more person that calls there self a Dr.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The neuro surgeon ordered PT and a lumbar MRI.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have feet that are cold all the time and they feel just

> like

> > > > they

> > > > > > are painful with a feeling that is a sorness.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > . I ask him the neuro surgeon back pain could cause this

and

> > > > he

> > > > > > ordered a lumbar MRI and PT for lumbar.

> > > > > > It showedL3-4 diffuse posterior bulge and right lateral

disc

> > > > > > protrusion.

> > > > > > L4-5 diffuse posterior bulge mild facet arthropathy

> bilaterally.

> > > > > > L5-S1 diffuse posterior bulge .

> > > > > > Both deep tendon reflexes are dead. Some of the arm ones

are

> > > > > > dulling.

> > > > > > These things are getting worse some days I almost can't

> feel my

> > > > > arms

> > > > > > but they do hurt.

> > > > > > My feet hurt every day and are so cold that I burned a

small

> > > > hole

> > > > > in

> > > > > > my calf with the heating pad. I feel asleep.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I tested positive for lyme dx almost three years ago.

None

> of

> > > > the

> > > > > > antibiotics seem to help except ramifin did back in the

> winter.

> > > > > > I used it for 30 days. I just started a another 30 days

of

> it.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I had high fibrinogen, and high fragment 1+2, and then

> factor

> > > II

> > > > > > activity was high through HEMEX.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > For over 20 years I have been getting a herpes rash on my

> > > > tailbone

> > > > > > and now my tailbone has some hard bone that I can feel

that

> > > > keeps

> > > > > > growing.

> > > > > > It didn't show up on xray.

> > > > > > That hurts sometimes and I know that there is a knot there

> > > > because

> > > > > > my husband can feel it. I can not sit in a bathtub

without

> it

> > > > > > making me have to sit on one side. I don't understand why

it

> > > > does

> > > > > > not show up on xray. It is getting larger.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Something else that I keep reading on this forum I had two

> > > > positive

> > > > > > staph cultures from my nose back in 1973 and they said I

> was a

> > > > > > carrier.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't have any root canals and only three amalgams.

> > > > > > I have had good teeth.

> > > > > > I did have a horse give me a concussion a few months

before

> all

> > > > the

> > > > > > flu like achy weakness started and I don't know how long

I

> was

> > > > > > knocked out. The Dr I went to for lyme was the only Dr to

> ever

> > > > > > mention jarring your putitary gland.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have taken several different antibiotics so how do you

> know

> > > > which

> > > > > > one you need?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks I hope I didn't ask to many questions.

> > > > > > sandy

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Tony.

This suggests to me that you've been tracking what I've been writing

lately. That's very flattering! I hope you'll continue to stay with

me. Big things are about to come down in CFS with the genetically-

based glutathione depletion--methylation cycle block hypothesis and

the Amy Yasko treatment program. About 20 people I know of are trying

this now. Time will tell how well it works and on which sorts of

subsets. Can't say yet what will happen where there are heavy

infections. Maybe some abx will be needed as well. (How about that?)

Are you familiar with Xafaxin? Two PWCs that I know of so far have

reported that abx to be very helpful for gut bugs without causing

problems because of detox enzyme polymorphisms, which many have.

Xafaxin pretty much stays in the gut and isn't absorbed into the blood.

Keep on trucking, Tony. Illigitimus non carborundum, and all that!

Rich

> If you want to follow a philosospher join the cfs experimental site

> and follow the puke richie dishes up about genetics and yasko and

> stuff.

> tony

[Guest guest]

Kate

So we fix infections by using glutathione? What if the glutathione is

fueling INFLAMMATION, what do we do then? I think the vitamin

supplementing crowd may get excited because everything there doing

sounds all good, but the facts are the vitamin poppers reduce there

life expectancy.... excited are we to fuel our problems..

I really haven't read anything about the Cpn crowd, I do recall five

years earlier trying to explain at a cfs forum how there disease and

the lyme forums description of there disease was identical. This made

me start reading lyme forums, my only learning curve with them is the

waxing and wanning of the therapies, that gave me a stronger

curiousity to learn first hand what there actual infections looked

like.I actually did the same after reading heavily at the candida

forums- they are the same as the rest of us.

> > Heh heh heh Rich.

> > ...

> > your one size glutathione depletion hypothesis?

>

[Guest guest]

Rich, I'm seriously not sure I should be bringing this out in the

open right now, but me and Tony have actually been on a secret herbal

version of the Marshall Protocol that the NIH started fine-tuning

late last year. He persuaded me to sign up with him after we both

sent in nasal swabs to IGeneX that grew out a couple CFUs of

methicillin-resistant Mycoplasma hominis CWDs apiece.

I'm pretty sure I'm in the placebo group but as for Tony there really

do seem to be some strange effects at times. Sorry about that. You

all dont have to share a 10 x 10 foot plexiglass room with him here

in Bethesda for the next 2 to 26 years like I do, but at least they

gave us each our own computer.

, hate to see you take off, you posted some stuff that changed my

views. Theres nothing I hate more than having my views changed, but I

figure its all part of a good process.

>

> > If you want to follow a philosospher join the cfs experimental

site

> > and follow the puke richie dishes up about genetics and yasko and

> > stuff.

> > tony

>

[Guest guest]

Rich,

I did a google search for Xafaxin and absolutely nothing turns up.

Could it be spelled differently? In any case, is it related to

nystatin which also only works in the gut? I have to ask why someone

with an intracellular infection that is in the brain would want an

antibiotic that only works in the gut.

I am interested in gene studies but I have many reservations

regarding Yasko's treatments, let alone how significant gene studies

are at this time for the average patient. I do agree that eventually,

assuming we don't destroy the earth with a nuclear war, that gene

studies will serve to customize treatment to suit the patient.

Currently millions of people are genetically vulnerable to the

infections underlying our diseases just as billions are vulnerable to

HIV. (I just read a fascinating study on why some people can reverse

HIV due to their genetic makeup. Such studies may turn into

treatments.)

But back to Yasko's treatments - even assuming they are the correct

ones for a given patient - we have seen that HIV patients die because

they simply can't keep up with the treatment protocol. Many more HIV

patients have survived because the treatments have been simplified to

what - a couple of pills a day? I'm pretty good about taking several

pills a day for Lyme, but there is no way I could follow the

complexities of Yasko's treatments I have seen for even one patient.

(On an aside, I have worked with quite a few autistic teens - you

have a hard time getting them to put a shoe on let alone taking pills

and eating only certain foods - so I find her treatments mindboggling

in several ways. Oh, and they like to steal food out of the fridg and

off other people's plates.)

On a personal note, as you know, I have been gossiped about behind my

back with statements such as I am mentally ill, I am a negative

person who likes to argue over anything that is not my point of view

etc. I am none of the above, but I am vulnerable. I have been harmed

by these email lists and it was not Tony who did the harm. I can deal

with Tony's honest disagreement and confrontation. But I am just

about at the point personally of leaving these lists which I think

tend to make us sicker. In my case they certainly make me feel like

just accepting the level of recovery I have and living the rest of my

life in reasonable stablity although not entirely well. When I read

what has been written about me by total strangers who don't know me,

I feel like giving up.

I guess I have gotten to the place where I completely understand why

and Dudley disappeared.

a Carnes

>

> Hi, Tony.

>

> This suggests to me that you've been tracking what I've been

writing

> lately. That's very flattering! I hope you'll continue to stay

with

> me. Big things are about to come down in CFS with the genetically-

> based glutathione depletion--methylation cycle block hypothesis and

> the Amy Yasko treatment program. About 20 people I know of are

trying

> this now. Time will tell how well it works and on which sorts of

> subsets. Can't say yet what will happen where there are heavy

> infections. Maybe some abx will be needed as well. (How about

that?)

> Are you familiar with Xafaxin? Two PWCs that I know of so far have

> reported that abx to be very helpful for gut bugs without causing

> problems because of detox enzyme polymorphisms, which many have.

> Xafaxin pretty much stays in the gut and isn't absorbed into the

blood.

>

> Keep on trucking, Tony. Illigitimus non carborundum, and all that!

>

> Rich

[Guest guest]

Bob,

You have stated the complexity of our situation better than I have

ever read. I am printing a copy to read again.

Hum,if some of us could just find the elephant's willy life would

improve greatly.

a Carnes

>

> Tony,

>

> It's not " all infections, all the time " . I don't believe that Rich

> claims glutathione fixes infections. Glutathione does what it does

in

> the body, and remedying a shortage of it should fix that.

>

> The question is, whether it's all as simple as you make it out to

be

> (float your kidneys in abx and life is good) or as simple as Rich

makes

> it out to be (raise your glutathione levels because that's the key

to

> everything else).

>

> The questions that would be useful to ask are: is glutathione low

> because of infections? Or are infections rampant because

glutathione is

> low? And then of course, does it make sense to use abx when the

> infections will just come back later because of glutathione

depletion?

> Or does it make sense to supplement glutathione when it will just

drop

> later because infections haven't been dealt with? Or would a

> two-pronged approach be best?

>

> All of this, of course, assumes that you are BOTH right and ALL the

> other theories out there hold little or no water, which is,

frankly,

> assuming an awful lot.

>

> The truth is, I fear, that we are all blind men feeling different

parts

> of the elephant, and not terribly willing to integrate the input

from

> the guy who is feeling the tail, the guy who is feeling the leg,

the guy

> who is feeling the trunk. And probably the guy who is feeling the

> willie and doesn't want to admit it.

>

> Put another way ... I *seriously* doubt that killing every bug you

can

> culture is the sole answer. Because if it were, everyone that

didn't do

> it would be sick and everyone that did do it would get reliably and

> demonstrably better. Would that it were that simple.

>

> I *seriously* doubt that raising glutathione is the answer (indeed,

in

> our experience, we *seriously* doubt there is a reliable way to

raise it

> because I suspect we don't truly understand why it's low or the

> mechanism that makes it low). Would that it were that simple.

>

> I *seriously* doubt that attempting to categorize a complex system

like

> one's enzyme detox pathways and then tweaking them nutritionally is

the

> total answer (would that it were even *that* simple -- and all you

have

> to do is listen to the abject confusion out there amongst the

people

> trying to follow Yasko's protocol, to see that it's pretty

complicated).

>

> I don't want to make chronic illness more complex. I don't like

> complexity. In fact I hate it. However, the human body is

exceedingly

> complex; despite our confident assertions we only *dimly*

understand it

> and the state of our science, if better than a hundred years ago,

is

> still very crude; and if we don't approach chronic illness with

some

> humility we will have the situation we see here in microcosm ... a

bunch

> of isolated thinkers with pet theories, putting way to much energy

into

> turf protection and argument. Many " physicians of no value " .

>

> It is easy to propound theories and tell people they just need to

bully

> their doctor into seeing the light; it is another thing entirely to

do

> that in the real world. I can tell you from our personal

experience

> that when thirty years of the best that medicine has to offer

produces

> nothing but feeling worse, you grow rather jaded and skeptical

about the

> latest /theory du jour/.

>

> You see, it works like this. If I take abx a, b and c and don't

get

> better, or get better and relapse, you can always say I should have

> taken different doses, or different abx, or on a different schedule

or

> protocol, or with pulsing, or that I must not have cultured /

detected

> everything -- whatever. If I take whey protien, lytholized

glutathione

> and IM glutathione shots and my glutathione levels don't go up or I

> simply don't get better, you can always say that I have some

bizarre

> malfunction in my body that makes me the exception that proves the

> rule. If Amy Yasko's baroque protocol says I need to take x, y and

z in

> order to tip the balance of this or that enzyme pathway, and I

can't

> tolerate x and y because I'm reactive to them, and z makes my

digestion

> go to hell, and the whole combination destabilized me further

then ...

> well, tough shit.

>

> So we are reduced to cherry-picking things from here and there that

(a)

> sound good and ( haven't been tried in some form already, and ©

> won't kill my wife outright, and the list gets smaller and smaller,

and

> flexibility to try things gets less and less.

>

> I'm on this list only because I wish we had hit the multiple

infection

> angle sooner, but due to detox issues we may well be too late for

that.

>

> For those of you who are able to do abx, keep it up ... you're

lucky.

> It is probably your best shot. But don't be smug and think that

you've

> found the One True Path ... listen to the Riches, Amys, and even

Cheneys

> and take away what you can from them because those other blind men

are

> gathering data, too ... it's all part of the soup. Don't build a

> fortress, " us vs them " mentality, however tempting it may be. Like

it

> or not, you need them all. Because if you manage to get better on

abx

> you'll need some of these other things -- nutritional support,

toxin

> avoidance, etc. --- to sustain your gains and keep yourself

healthy.

> Otherwise you would never have needed the abx in the first place.

> Plenty of people have what they consider an acceptable or even

excellent

> quality of life without them, after all.

>

> --Bob

>

[Guest guest]

Bob

I didn't read most of what you wrote but will explain it to you like

this. Things ain't as complex as is being made out. Firstly in an

autopsy the cause of death is traceable.They open you up, look at

your heart, weigh it, and see that it's enlarged -BANG!

CARDIOMYO0PATHY

the heart was inflammed and it ended up 33% larger than what is

expected. The other thing they observe- 'the brain' for egs. The

brain comes out smaller.. dementia.. patient cause of death? possable

loss of neurological control.. I can keep going, vascular disease,

kidney disease, liver, fibrous formations in many area's

(fibromyalgia).. Basically the cause of death can be traced and can

be called genetically defective... because all this fibrous tissue

your heart is growing ain't tissue you'd grow normally, so we can

actually classify it as genetic. But!!!! now this is important- THE

CORONER IS GOING TO CALL ALL THIS MESS INFLAMMATION DAMAGE.. This

falls into the realms of the inflammation driven trillion dollar

pharmaceutical industry. Mr. Rich V klonkenberger ain't going to end

up at the head of the table at some international pharmaceutical

company speaking at a metting in europe somehwhere- how glutathione

depletion therapy is going to save anyones ass because he doesn't

realise the mess that's created to the sufferers is caused by

inflammation.

more later

> > > > Heh heh heh Rich.

> > > > ...

> > > > your one size glutathione depletion hypothesis?

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> It's spelled Xifaxin.

>

> Someone with a confirmed brain infection would not want it. Someone

> with a confirmed gut infection would.

>

> --Bob

Thanks, Bob. I will look it up. But I must say, and I totally respect

Rich and consider him a great friend for several years now, that at

least two doctors are finding cfs patients are 90 to 95% infected with

borrelia which is a brain infection - why would an antibiotic that

only clears gut bacteria be useful? (Besides cfs is notorious for

causing brain fog and brain dysfunction - possibly a clue to brain

infection. I do know that some have found mycoplasma infection in bone

marrow and spinal fluid.)

Also, Yasko has on her Lyme list one herb that acts as an antibiotic,

samento. Now samento does seem to help some Lyme patients, but I

wonder does Yasko give them fair warning to watch for CNS problems and

tendon problems that will get much worse and look just like Lyme and

get confused with a herx when they are taking samento? (Please excuse

me for repeating this, but I feel that people are overlooking these

things when it comes to Yasko as if she is recommending safe and

harmless treatments because they are herbs or dietary changes.)

You were absolutely correct when you wrote that the human body is

complex beyond what we can even imagine. " We are fearfully and

wonderfullly made. "

a

[Guest guest]

a

I would take this for my brain infection- because most toxins can

enter the bloodstream and attack the brain, from the gut.

and his belief in the gut and all it's complexeities, is pretty

good knowledge to take onboard IMO.I just think they fail to realise

many have had a foot or two taken out of there gut because they

downplay aspects of this crisis..Reading an IBS and IBD book really

opens your eyes on the gut- possably the hardest thing to correct in

this whole ilness.

> >

> > Rich,

> > I did a google search for Xafaxin and absolutely nothing turns up.

> > Could it be spelled differently? In any case, is it related to

> > nystatin which also only works in the gut? I have to ask why

someone

> > with an intracellular infection that is in the brain would want an

> > antibiotic that only works in the gut.

> >

> > I am interested in gene studies but I have many reservations

> > regarding Yasko's treatments, let alone how significant gene

studies

> > are at this time for the average patient. I do agree that

eventually,

> > assuming we don't destroy the earth with a nuclear war, that gene

> > studies will serve to customize treatment to suit the patient.

> > Currently millions of people are genetically vulnerable to the

> > infections underlying our diseases just as billions are

vulnerable to

> > HIV. (I just read a fascinating study on why some people can

reverse

> > HIV due to their genetic makeup. Such studies may turn into

> > treatments.)

> >

> > But back to Yasko's treatments - even assuming they are the

correct

> > ones for a given patient - we have seen that HIV patients die

because

> > they simply can't keep up with the treatment protocol. Many more

HIV

> > patients have survived because the treatments have been

simplified to

> > what - a couple of pills a day? I'm pretty good about taking

several

> > pills a day for Lyme, but there is no way I could follow the

> > complexities of Yasko's treatments I have seen for even one

patient.

> > (On an aside, I have worked with quite a few autistic teens - you

> > have a hard time getting them to put a shoe on let alone taking

pills

> > and eating only certain foods - so I find her treatments

mindboggling

> > in several ways. Oh, and they like to steal food out of the fridg

and

> > off other people's plates.)

> >

> > On a personal note, as you know, I have been gossiped about

behind my

> > back with statements such as I am mentally ill, I am a negative

> > person who likes to argue over anything that is not my point of

view

> > etc. I am none of the above, but I am vulnerable. I have been

harmed

> > by these email lists and it was not Tony who did the harm. I can

deal

> > with Tony's honest disagreement and confrontation. But I am just

> > about at the point personally of leaving these lists which I think

> > tend to make us sicker. In my case they certainly make me feel

like

> > just accepting the level of recovery I have and living the rest

of my

> > life in reasonable stablity although not entirely well. When I

read

> > what has been written about me by total strangers who don't know

me,

> > I feel like giving up.

> >

> > I guess I have gotten to the place where I completely understand

why

> > and Dudley disappeared.

> >

> > a Carnes

> >

> > >

> > > Hi, Tony.

> > >

> > > This suggests to me that you've been tracking what I've been

> > writing

> > > lately. That's very flattering! I hope you'll continue to stay

> > with

> > > me. Big things are about to come down in CFS with the

genetically-

> > > based glutathione depletion--methylation cycle block hypothesis

and

> > > the Amy Yasko treatment program. About 20 people I know of are

> > trying

> > > this now. Time will tell how well it works and on which sorts of

> > > subsets. Can't say yet what will happen where there are heavy

> > > infections. Maybe some abx will be needed as well. (How about

> > that?)

> > > Are you familiar with Xafaxin? Two PWCs that I know of so far

have

> > > reported that abx to be very helpful for gut bugs without

causing

> > > problems because of detox enzyme polymorphisms, which many have.

> > > Xafaxin pretty much stays in the gut and isn't absorbed into the

> > blood.

> > >

> > > Keep on trucking, Tony. Illigitimus non carborundum, and all

that!

> > >

> > > Rich

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Tony and Rich,

It may be simple in a complex way. You have the infections, you have

the vicious cycle that develops from them and you may be able to

treat both issues at once.

But neither will get treated until we get effective antibiotics and a

SIMPLE approach to reducing inflammation and the fallout of

infection. Why not do both at once?

Up until now we have used steriods along with antibiotics to treat

inflammation. So what Yasko is suggesting may have merit.

It won't have merit until some pharma comes up with a couple of

simple products that work. And the products must make money because

money drives the world's research. No, Rich won't be sitting at the

head of the table, but he may well have contributed in a way that

humans will not recognize.

Life is not fair, and then you die. Then things are fair.

a

>

> Bob

> I didn't read most of what you wrote but will explain it to you

like

> this. Things ain't as complex as is being made out. Firstly in an

> autopsy the cause of death is traceable.They open you up, look at

> your heart, weigh it, and see that it's enlarged -BANG!

> CARDIOMYO0PATHY

> the heart was inflammed and it ended up 33% larger than what is

> expected. The other thing they observe- 'the brain' for egs. The

> brain comes out smaller.. dementia.. patient cause of death?

possable

> loss of neurological control.. I can keep going, vascular disease,

> kidney disease, liver, fibrous formations in many area's

> (fibromyalgia).. Basically the cause of death can be traced and can

> be called genetically defective... because all this fibrous tissue

> your heart is growing ain't tissue you'd grow normally, so we can

> actually classify it as genetic. But!!!! now this is important- THE

> CORONER IS GOING TO CALL ALL THIS MESS INFLAMMATION DAMAGE.. This

> falls into the realms of the inflammation driven trillion dollar

> pharmaceutical industry. Mr. Rich V klonkenberger ain't going to

end

> up at the head of the table at some international pharmaceutical

> company speaking at a metting in europe somehwhere- how glutathione

> depletion therapy is going to save anyones ass because he doesn't

> realise the mess that's created to the sufferers is caused by

> inflammation.

> more later

>

[Guest guest]

,

I am slow, stupid and gullible, but when I saw that Tony was in the

US I realized this was a joke. I am sure that customs would never

allow him out of the airport. We should all plan a party in the

Australian outback in honor of Tonyaus.

a

>

> Rich, I'm seriously not sure I should be bringing this out in the

> open right now, but me and Tony have actually been on a secret

herbal

> version of the Marshall Protocol that the NIH started fine-tuning

> late last year. He persuaded me to sign up with him after we both

> sent in nasal swabs to IGeneX that grew out a couple CFUs of

> methicillin-resistant Mycoplasma hominis CWDs apiece.

>

> I'm pretty sure I'm in the placebo group but as for Tony there

really

> do seem to be some strange effects at times. Sorry about that. You

> all dont have to share a 10 x 10 foot plexiglass room with him here

> in Bethesda for the next 2 to 26 years like I do, but at least they

> gave us each our own computer.

>

> , hate to see you take off, you posted some stuff that changed

my

> views. Theres nothing I hate more than having my views changed, but

I

> figure its all part of a good process.

[Guest guest]

********Gut disbiosis is a separate issue from brain infection.******

Bob

This statement is not really true. HAving an Irritable bowel disease

it's common for a sufferer to suffer eye inflammation(occular

problems of many descriptions). Now if you don't think these eye

soreness and brain inflammation have a link you may try and get a

better understanding of the ME-myalgic 'ENCEPHALITIS' aspects of our

ilness..Soreness of the eyes and brain inflammation especially around

the menninges would not be uncommon IMO.

tony

> >

> >

> > >

> > > It's spelled Xifaxin.

> > >

> > > Someone with a confirmed brain infection would not want it.

Someone

> > > with a confirmed gut infection would.

> > >

> > > --Bob

> >

> > Thanks, Bob. I will look it up. But I must say, and I totally

respect

> > Rich and consider him a great friend for several years now, that

at

> > least two doctors are finding cfs patients are 90 to 95% infected

with

> > borrelia which is a brain infection - why would an antibiotic that

> > only clears gut bacteria be useful? (Besides cfs is notorious for

> > causing brain fog and brain dysfunction - possibly a clue to brain

> > infection. I do know that some have found mycoplasma infection in

bone

> > marrow and spinal fluid.)

> >

> > Also, Yasko has on her Lyme list one herb that acts as an

antibiotic,

> > samento. Now samento does seem to help some Lyme patients, but I

> > wonder does Yasko give them fair warning to watch for CNS

problems and

> > tendon problems that will get much worse and look just like Lyme

and

> > get confused with a herx when they are taking samento? (Please

excuse

> > me for repeating this, but I feel that people are overlooking

these

> > things when it comes to Yasko as if she is recommending safe and

> > harmless treatments because they are herbs or dietary changes.)

> >

> > You were absolutely correct when you wrote that the human body is

> > complex beyond what we can even imagine. " We are fearfully and

> > wonderfullly made. "

> >

> > a

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bob,

Yes, the Xifaxin makes good sense for now in your wife's case.

Rich V and I have known and respected each other for years. He is as

fine a person as I have ever known. It hurts me a lot to realize that

some people on the experimental list do not know me and have written

some pretty bad stuff about me behind my back thinking that I was

Rich's enemy. I am not.

You are obviously doing your homework. You cannot ever assume that

your doctor will know about Yasko's herbal and alternative

treatments. Hey, the docs don't even know the risks of the drugs.

If your wife cannot tolerate garlic never assume she can tolerate

anything on Yasko's list. You are in a tough spot. Even if Yasko is

right on target with the genetics that still does not mean her

treatments will be safe for your wife.

For instance (forgive me if I wrote this) samento is an extremely

dangerous herb for anyone who cannot tolerate quinolone antibiotics.

That is just one example.

I have a friend you may want to email with who has worked with a

couple of patients who have severe MCS - have to live in the desert,

etc. If you would like to email her send me a note at pj7@....

a

>

> a,

>

> Gut disbiosis is a separate issue from brain infection. I agree

that

> borellia has a strong affinity for the CNS, but there are various

> infections, particularly of the small intestine, that can cause no

end

> of problems -- shortages of neurotransmitters, for instance, many

of

> which are made in the gut; shortages of magnesium; shortages and

> imbalances of amino acids; inability to properly absorb nutrients;

> impaired bowel motility (and by extension, retention of toxins too

long

> in the gut, that should be expeditiously excreted, lest they be

> re-absorbed).

>

> All of these things impact the CNS too, some of them very

directly. My

> wife has found Xifaxin helpful precisely because (a) she has all of

the

> above symptoms; ( has various gut problems and infections and ©

can

> tolerate Xifaxin because it stays in the gut and does not need to

be

> detoxed by her liver -- and any die-off induced toxins will

hopefully

> tend to stay out of general circulation. It may not be her main

> problem, but it is a significant one, and one of the few ones we've

been

> able to effectively address in her particular situation.

>

> And by the way, we give full credit to Rich V for coming up with

this

> idea. Since Rich would never toot his own horn, I would like to

point

> out that the man retired early to pursue his interest in CFIDS

research

> and spends a lot of /pro bono/ time thinking deeply about

particular

> cases with his considerable intellect. I do not necessarily agree

110%

> with all of his theories and conclusions but am very glad to have

him in

> our corner. He is a genuinely good man, and doing everything he

can to

> help, and I believe he should be welcomed as an ally.

>

> You are correct that Yasko's protocol (like all protocols) must be

> approached carefully and tailored to the particular patient you

wish to

> apply it to. And that in her enthusiasm for her own ideas she may

not

> think through all the ramifications of what she suggests. Although

in

> fairness to her, I suppose that she expects that people will

consult

> their doctors on those fine points (and no doubt has the charming

> naivete that patients can trust their doctors entirely to sort it

all

> out). This is a frequent blind spot of researchers ... those

damned

> patients just don't always behave by responding as expected to all

their

> theories. As my wife's MD likes to say -- " well, your body just

hasn't

> read the textbooks " .

>

> --Bob

>

> pjeanneus wrote:

> >

> >

> > >

> > > It's spelled Xifaxin.

> > >

> > > Someone with a confirmed brain infection would not want it.

Someone

> > > with a confirmed gut infection would.

> > >

> > > --Bob

> >

> > Thanks, Bob. I will look it up. But I must say, and I totally

respect

> > Rich and consider him a great friend for several years now, that

at

> > least two doctors are finding cfs patients are 90 to 95% infected

with

> > borrelia which is a brain infection - why would an antibiotic that

> > only clears gut bacteria be useful? (Besides cfs is notorious for

> > causing brain fog and brain dysfunction - possibly a clue to brain

> > infection. I do know that some have found mycoplasma infection in

bone

> > marrow and spinal fluid.)

> >

> > Also, Yasko has on her Lyme list one herb that acts as an

antibiotic,

> > samento. Now samento does seem to help some Lyme patients, but I

> > wonder does Yasko give them fair warning to watch for CNS

problems and

> > tendon problems that will get much worse and look just like Lyme

and

> > get confused with a herx when they are taking samento? (Please

excuse

> > me for repeating this, but I feel that people are overlooking

these

> > things when it comes to Yasko as if she is recommending safe and

> > harmless treatments because they are herbs or dietary changes.)

> >

> > You were absolutely correct when you wrote that the human body is

> > complex beyond what we can even imagine. " We are fearfully and

> > wonderfullly made. "

> >

> > a

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I think one would lead the the other very quickly. You have a

bowel that cannot hold the proteins - they pass through the lining of

the gut in big pieces and get into the blood stream. I assume this

would mean the bacteria also pass into the blood stream. So if you

can heal the gut you can then perhaps move on to treating the rest of

the body. The weird thing about Zithromax is that MANY patients on it

have gut improvement. Even Cheney said this - a doc who doesn't

use antibiotics - he had to admit Zithromax helps the gut and no one

knows why. I know I sound like a Zithromax fanatic - hum, maybe I am.

a

>

>

> ********Gut disbiosis is a separate issue from brain

infection.******

>

> Bob

> This statement is not really true. HAving an Irritable bowel

disease

> it's common for a sufferer to suffer eye inflammation(occular

> problems of many descriptions). Now if you don't think these eye

> soreness and brain inflammation have a link you may try and get a

> better understanding of the ME-myalgic 'ENCEPHALITIS' aspects of

our

> ilness..Soreness of the eyes and brain inflammation especially

around

> the menninges would not be uncommon IMO.

> tony

>

>

>

>

>

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > It's spelled Xifaxin.

> > > >

> > > > Someone with a confirmed brain infection would not want it.

> Someone

> > > > with a confirmed gut infection would.

> > > >

> > > > --Bob

> > >

> > > Thanks, Bob. I will look it up. But I must say, and I totally

> respect

> > > Rich and consider him a great friend for several years now,

that

> at

> > > least two doctors are finding cfs patients are 90 to 95%

infected

> with

> > > borrelia which is a brain infection - why would an antibiotic

that

> > > only clears gut bacteria be useful? (Besides cfs is notorious

for

> > > causing brain fog and brain dysfunction - possibly a clue to

brain

> > > infection. I do know that some have found mycoplasma infection

in

> bone

> > > marrow and spinal fluid.)

> > >

> > > Also, Yasko has on her Lyme list one herb that acts as an

> antibiotic,

> > > samento. Now samento does seem to help some Lyme patients, but I

> > > wonder does Yasko give them fair warning to watch for CNS

> problems and

> > > tendon problems that will get much worse and look just like

Lyme

> and

> > > get confused with a herx when they are taking samento? (Please

> excuse

> > > me for repeating this, but I feel that people are overlooking

> these

> > > things when it comes to Yasko as if she is recommending safe and

> > > harmless treatments because they are herbs or dietary changes.)

> > >

> > > You were absolutely correct when you wrote that the human body

is

> > > complex beyond what we can even imagine. " We are fearfully and

> > > wonderfullly made. "

> > >

> > > a

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

a

They have been using sulpha drugs for irritable bowel diseases since

the 1940's. Salfasalazine is one that is also supposedly only doing

the business in the gut..I think you shouldn't concern yourself over

your strong affliction to zithro becuaes if it gets into certain

area's and makes you better for such a long stretch don't give up on

it.. maybe just try this other option alongside.

Basically you'd be familiar by now with how huge these types of

intracellular infections are and the type of dedication and treatment

they require.

tony

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > It's spelled Xifaxin.

> > > > >

> > > > > Someone with a confirmed brain infection would not want it.

> > Someone

> > > > > with a confirmed gut infection would.

> > > > >

> > > > > --Bob

> > > >

> > > > Thanks, Bob. I will look it up. But I must say, and I totally

> > respect

> > > > Rich and consider him a great friend for several years now,

> that

> > at

> > > > least two doctors are finding cfs patients are 90 to 95%

> infected

> > with

> > > > borrelia which is a brain infection - why would an antibiotic

> that

> > > > only clears gut bacteria be useful? (Besides cfs is notorious

> for

> > > > causing brain fog and brain dysfunction - possibly a clue to

> brain

> > > > infection. I do know that some have found mycoplasma

infection

> in

> > bone

> > > > marrow and spinal fluid.)

> > > >

> > > > Also, Yasko has on her Lyme list one herb that acts as an

> > antibiotic,

> > > > samento. Now samento does seem to help some Lyme patients,

but I

> > > > wonder does Yasko give them fair warning to watch for CNS

> > problems and

> > > > tendon problems that will get much worse and look just like

> Lyme

> > and

> > > > get confused with a herx when they are taking samento?

(Please

> > excuse

> > > > me for repeating this, but I feel that people are overlooking

> > these

> > > > things when it comes to Yasko as if she is recommending safe

and

> > > > harmless treatments because they are herbs or dietary

changes.)

> > > >

> > > > You were absolutely correct when you wrote that the human

body

> is

> > > > complex beyond what we can even imagine. " We are fearfully and

> > > > wonderfullly made. "

> > > >

> > > > a

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Bob

This is the beauty of living in a democracy.We have our choices, and

make the best use of them..Personally what you think of infections

and how you conduct your wife's medical matters is non of my concern.

All I can do is give a couple of tips and you then can pick up and

run with what you like and discard what you don't like, the rest of

it is harmless, regardless if people bitch about it..I honestly

don't loose too much sleep over anything in forum land.

ANyways writing me and telling me I have some weird beliefs or bad

advice is the least of anyones problems. I think we should have the

ability to read many angles and pick and choose what suits each of us.

You may think I'm a dud, but I tend to look at these ilnesses as a

patient, not thru rose coloured glasses.

I also think that many people may have adopted using more than one

antibiotic, possably due to my fanatisiscm.

Also

> > > > > > Heh heh heh Rich.

> > > > > > ...

> > > > > > your one size glutathione depletion hypothesis?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> And by the way, is Dr. Andy still big on Samento? I don't

seem to be hearing nearly so much about it lately. Has it gone to

that " another one bites the dust " treatment cemetery in the sky? :-)

I was at a Lyme conference this winter and found it curious that the

Lyme docs have quit mentioning quinolones. My hunch is that Dr.

has stepped back from them as he is really using TM's input quite a

bit.

I have patient quotes on pain caused by samento and also some

documentation from docs, etc. I will post here what I can dig up from

my files.

a

>