Fw: [] Re: RnaseL

[Guest guest]

[] Re: RnaseL<snip>> Well, the people who devised the RnaseL (Shadolnik, Lebleu etc.)didn't say> anything about bacterial infections they only mentioned viruses in> connection with RnaseL.>> NellyHere is an excerpt from a Cheney tape in which he says that RNase-Ldysfunction has many causes:"Some insult ultimately leads to cell dysfunction, usuallythrough RNase-L activity. "Now RNase-L can also, as an intracellular defense mechanism,be triggered by intracellular bacterial infections, not justviruses. For example, mycoplasma infections and/or chlamydiainfections." Q: So you would not call that the basis of CFS - there arepeople out there who say, "The reason you have CFS is because of amycoplasma." Dr. C: "It could trigger it, but isn't necessarily thecause of all cases. What seems to be the common denominator is RNase-L defense mechanisms go up against certain types of intracellularpathogens that can hit - including viruses, mycoplasmas, chlamydias,etc. "And because of that, the nature of this viral infection canbe quite variable. Because it doesn't have to be ONLY one kind ofvirus. It doesn't even have to be a virus. It could be a bacterialinfection. IT COULD BE A CHLAMYDIAL PNEUMONIA INFECTION OF THESINUSES - THAT COULD TRIGGER IT. Or mycoplasma infection of thesinuses could trigger it." Q: "So it might not even be a viral-induced RNase-L." Dr. C: "No. No. It could be viral or other intracellularmicro-organism-induced RNase-L. RNase-L IS THE KEY. "RNase-L defends you from intracellular invasion.Mycoplasmas are intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-lActivity] is your defense. Viruses -including adenoviruses - areintracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-L Activity] is yourdefense. Chlamydia pneumoniae is an intracellular invader and yourdefense is RNase-L. Whatever can invade the cell, this [RNase-LActivity] is your primary defense."So it could be ANY of those triggers - which is why thedisease can look different in the beginning. But, everybody mergestoward this problem [Phase II]. And what characterizes Phase II is:my brain is going; my energy is going; and I hurt - although 10%don't have much pain.This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with eachother, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatmentdiscussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

Nelly

Very interesting posts, your last few.This really makes the internet

and forum sites very valuable, I personally hate all cfs docs and

think they are expensive imbeciles, you have a strong history of why

this is so.I did feel that maybe credit was due to the fact that he

may have pointed out some severe damage occuring to sufferers, as

opposed to the nothingness everyone else offers.But if something has

been around for yonks and bnever been bought by medicine, this guys

wimpers should by shot down.

> <snip>

> > Well, the people who devised the RnaseL (Shadolnik, Lebleu etc.)

> didn't say

> > anything about bacterial infections they only mentioned viruses in

> > connection with RnaseL.

> >

> > Nelly

>

> Here is an excerpt from a Cheney tape in which he says that RNase-L

> dysfunction has many causes:

> " Some insult ultimately leads to cell dysfunction, usually

> through RNase-L activity.

> " Now RNase-L can also, as an intracellular defense

mechanism,

> be triggered by intracellular bacterial infections, not just

> viruses. For example, mycoplasma infections and/or chlamydia

> infections. "

> Q: So you would not call that the basis of CFS - there are

> people out there who say, " The reason you have CFS is because of a

> mycoplasma. "

> Dr. C: " It could trigger it, but isn't necessarily the

> cause of all cases. What seems to be the common denominator is

RNase-

> L defense mechanisms go up against certain types of intracellular

> pathogens that can hit - including viruses, mycoplasmas, chlamydias,

> etc.

> " And because of that, the nature of this viral infection can

> be quite variable. Because it doesn't have to be ONLY one kind of

> virus. It doesn't even have to be a virus. It could be a bacterial

> infection. IT COULD BE A CHLAMYDIAL PNEUMONIA INFECTION OF THE

> SINUSES - THAT COULD TRIGGER IT. Or mycoplasma infection of the

> sinuses could trigger it. "

> Q: " So it might not even be a viral-induced RNase-L. "

> Dr. C: " No. No. It could be viral or other intracellular

> micro-organism-induced RNase-L. RNase-L IS THE KEY.

> " RNase-L defends you from intracellular invasion.

> Mycoplasmas are intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-l

> Activity] is your defense. Viruses -including adenoviruses - are

> intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-L Activity] is your

> defense. Chlamydia pneumoniae is an intracellular invader and your

> defense is RNase-L. Whatever can invade the cell, this [RNase-L

> Activity] is your primary defense.

> " So it could be ANY of those triggers - which is why the

> disease can look different in the beginning. But, everybody merges

> toward this problem [Phase II]. And what characterizes Phase II

is:

> my brain is going; my energy is going; and I hurt - although 10%

> don't have much pain.

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry if this post is a repeat, it just won't go through so I am resending it, I sent it with the others over an hour ago but it won't go through.

It's part of a conversation I had with a couple of DeMeirleir's devotees a few years ago

Tony, you might realise that my beef with you is merely that you just don't understand that you are not alone in thinking that bacterial infections are a major, MAJOR factor in our illnesses, the only factor maybe or at least one that would amply suffice to explain how bad we feel. I just think identifying them is more complex than what you make out (and of course I agree that labs and docs could acheive HEAPS more by just trying)

I don't for one second think you are wrong to try and ID as much as possible, just that you are a pain in the a... to a) dismiss other bugs that you are not familiar with to rant and rave as if we all disagreed with you c) as if we think the Cheneys and DeMeirleir and all the CFS gurus were gods. I don't think many of us here think this

Nelly

[infections] Fw: [] Re: RnaseL

NellyVery interesting posts, your last few.This really makes the internet and forum sites very valuable, I personally hate all cfs docs and think they are expensive imbeciles, you have a strong history of why this is so.I did feel that maybe credit was due to the fact that he may have pointed out some severe damage occuring to sufferers, as opposed to the nothingness everyone else offers.But if something has been around for yonks and bnever been bought by medicine, this guys wimpers should by shot down.> <snip>> > Well, the people who devised the RnaseL (Shadolnik, Lebleu etc.)> didn't say> > anything about bacterial infections they only mentioned viruses in> > connection with RnaseL.> >> > Nelly> > Here is an excerpt from a Cheney tape in which he says that RNase-L> dysfunction has many causes:> "Some insult ultimately leads to cell dysfunction, usually> through RNase-L activity.> "Now RNase-L can also, as an intracellular defense mechanism,> be triggered by intracellular bacterial infections, not just> viruses. For example, mycoplasma infections and/or chlamydia> infections."> Q: So you would not call that the basis of CFS - there are> people out there who say, "The reason you have CFS is because of a> mycoplasma."> Dr. C: "It could trigger it, but isn't necessarily the> cause of all cases. What seems to be the common denominator is RNase-> L defense mechanisms go up against certain types of intracellular> pathogens that can hit - including viruses, mycoplasmas, chlamydias,> etc.> "And because of that, the nature of this viral infection can> be quite variable. Because it doesn't have to be ONLY one kind of> virus. It doesn't even have to be a virus. It could be a bacterial> infection. IT COULD BE A CHLAMYDIAL PNEUMONIA INFECTION OF THE> SINUSES - THAT COULD TRIGGER IT. Or mycoplasma infection of the> sinuses could trigger it."> Q: "So it might not even be a viral-induced RNase-L."> Dr. C: "No. No. It could be viral or other intracellular> micro-organism-induced RNase-L. RNase-L IS THE KEY.> "RNase-L defends you from intracellular invasion.> Mycoplasmas are intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-l> Activity] is your defense. Viruses -including adenoviruses - are> intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-L Activity] is your> defense. Chlamydia pneumoniae is an intracellular invader and your> defense is RNase-L. Whatever can invade the cell, this [RNase-L> Activity] is your primary defense.> "So it could be ANY of those triggers - which is why the> disease can look different in the beginning. But, everybody merges> toward this problem [Phase II]. And what characterizes Phase II is:> my brain is going; my energy is going; and I hurt - although 10%> don't have much pain.> > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment> discussed here, please consult your doctor.> >

[Guest guest]

Well, I certainly understand your frustration after those encounters. Can't tell you how many "great" doctors I've seen, who the greatest thing about them were their egos. :-) At least he's made progress in the right direction. Let's just hope it's also humbled him a bit, and that his curiosity is driving him as much as his ego. I wouldn't feel safe in the hands of someone who thinks he knows everything either. While doctors like that can at times be brilliant and really help people, they also can truly be hazardous to our health. penny Nelly Pointis <janel@...> wrote: [] Re: RnaseL<snip>> Well, the people who devised the RnaseL (Shadolnik, Lebleu etc.)didn't say> anything about bacterial infections they only mentioned viruses in> connection with RnaseL.>> NellyHere is an excerpt from a Cheney tape in which he says that RNase-Ldysfunction has many causes:"Some insult ultimately leads to cell dysfunction, usuallythrough RNase-L activity. "Now RNase-L can also, as an intracellular defense mechanism,be triggered by intracellular bacterial infections, not justviruses. For example, mycoplasma infections and/or chlamydiainfections." Q: So you

would not call that the basis of CFS - there arepeople out there who say, "The reason you have CFS is because of amycoplasma." Dr. C: "It could trigger it, but isn't necessarily thecause of all cases. What seems to be the common denominator is RNase-L defense mechanisms go up against certain types of intracellularpathogens that can hit - including viruses, mycoplasmas, chlamydias,etc. "And because of that, the nature of this viral infection canbe quite variable. Because it doesn't have to be ONLY one kind ofvirus. It doesn't even have to be a virus. It could be a bacterialinfection. IT COULD BE A CHLAMYDIAL PNEUMONIA INFECTION OF THESINUSES - THAT COULD TRIGGER IT. Or mycoplasma infection of thesinuses could trigger it." Q: "So it

might not even be a viral-induced RNase-L." Dr. C: "No. No. It could be viral or other intracellularmicro-organism-induced RNase-L. RNase-L IS THE KEY. "RNase-L defends you from intracellular invasion.Mycoplasmas are intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-lActivity] is your defense. Viruses -including adenoviruses - areintracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-L Activity] is yourdefense. Chlamydia pneumoniae is an intracellular invader and yourdefense is RNase-L. Whatever can invade the cell, this [RNase-LActivity] is your primary defense."So it could be ANY of those triggers - which is why thedisease can look different in the beginning. But, everybody mergestoward this problem [Phase II]. And what characterizes Phase II is:my brain is going; my energy is

going; and I hurt - although 10%don't have much pain.This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with eachother, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatmentdiscussed here, please consult your doctor.

[Guest guest]

-

Dear group,

I called and tried to get a referral from Dr. Cheney's office, as, I

course, cannot afford (no health insurance) to see him..and it would

take a year to get an appointment..but they will not refer anyone

(unless you are a patient) to anyone, period...

Well, I have had much more overt cardiac symptomalogy, which is the

main motivating factor for me.

Does anyone, know why they will not give referrals? has he been

sued, or what?

Amelia

-- In infections , Penny Houle

<pennyhoule@...> wrote:

>

> Well, I certainly understand your frustration after those

encounters.

>

> Can't tell you how many " great " doctors I've seen, who the

greatest thing about them were their egos. :-)

>

> At least he's made progress in the right direction. Let's just

hope it's also humbled him a bit, and that his curiosity is driving

him as much as his ego. I wouldn't feel safe in the hands of someone

who thinks he knows everything either. While doctors like that can at

times be brilliant and really help people, they also can truly be

hazardous to our health.

>

> penny

>

> Nelly Pointis <janel@...> wrote:

>

> [] Re: RnaseL

>

>

>

> <snip>

> > Well, the people who devised the RnaseL (Shadolnik, Lebleu etc.)

> didn't say

> > anything about bacterial infections they only mentioned viruses in

> > connection with RnaseL.

> >

> > Nelly

>

> Here is an excerpt from a Cheney tape in which he says that RNase-L

> dysfunction has many causes:

> " Some insult ultimately leads to cell dysfunction, usually

> through RNase-L activity.

> " Now RNase-L can also, as an intracellular defense

mechanism,

> be triggered by intracellular bacterial infections, not just

> viruses. For example, mycoplasma infections and/or chlamydia

> infections. "

> Q: So you would not call that the basis of CFS - there are

> people out there who say, " The reason you have CFS is because of a

> mycoplasma. "

> Dr. C: " It could trigger it, but isn't necessarily the

> cause of all cases. What seems to be the common denominator is

RNase-

> L defense mechanisms go up against certain types of intracellular

> pathogens that can hit - including viruses, mycoplasmas, chlamydias,

> etc.

> " And because of that, the nature of this viral infection can

> be quite variable. Because it doesn't have to be ONLY one kind of

> virus. It doesn't even have to be a virus. It could be a bacterial

> infection. IT COULD BE A CHLAMYDIAL PNEUMONIA INFECTION OF THE

> SINUSES - THAT COULD TRIGGER IT. Or mycoplasma infection of the

> sinuses could trigger it. "

> Q: " So it might not even be a viral-induced RNase-L. "

> Dr. C: " No. No. It could be viral or other intracellular

> micro-organism-induced RNase-L. RNase-L IS THE KEY.

> " RNase-L defends you from intracellular invasion.

> Mycoplasmas are intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-l

> Activity] is your defense. Viruses -including adenoviruses - are

> intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-L Activity] is your

> defense. Chlamydia pneumoniae is an intracellular invader and your

> defense is RNase-L. Whatever can invade the cell, this [RNase-L

> Activity] is your primary defense.

> " So it could be ANY of those triggers - which is why the

> disease can look different in the beginning. But, everybody merges

> toward this problem [Phase II]. And what characterizes Phase II

is:

> my brain is going; my energy is going; and I hurt - although 10%

> don't have much pain.

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Amelia

Are you after treatment or hot air.I think if you got in to see

cheney, all he'll do is blow hot air up your a...s.And that's

expenisve hot air.The guy is learning that things are absolutely

stuffed cardiovascular wise, yet all he offers is multivitamins and

is awaiting his pig cell trial therapies...These are the ones that

are going to make the earth spin the other way.The guy is expensive,

and in my opinion generally just gets your mood right, as opposed to

getting your body right.buyer beware, start learning and more

importantly learn to read between the lines of what his patints

claim.. Just a thought, a paula that posts here is vbery familiar

with his offices and his practises....

tony

> > <snip>

> > > Well, the people who devised the RnaseL (Shadolnik, Lebleu etc.)

> > didn't say

> > > anything about bacterial infections they only mentioned viruses

in

> > > connection with RnaseL.

> > >

> > > Nelly

> >

> > Here is an excerpt from a Cheney tape in which he says that RNase-

L

> > dysfunction has many causes:

> > " Some insult ultimately leads to cell dysfunction, usually

> > through RNase-L activity.

> > " Now RNase-L can also, as an intracellular defense

> mechanism,

> > be triggered by intracellular bacterial infections, not just

> > viruses. For example, mycoplasma infections and/or chlamydia

> > infections. "

> > Q: So you would not call that the basis of CFS - there

are

> > people out there who say, " The reason you have CFS is because of a

> > mycoplasma. "

> > Dr. C: " It could trigger it, but isn't necessarily the

> > cause of all cases. What seems to be the common denominator is

> RNase-

> > L defense mechanisms go up against certain types of intracellular

> > pathogens that can hit - including viruses, mycoplasmas,

chlamydias,

> > etc.

> > " And because of that, the nature of this viral infection

can

> > be quite variable. Because it doesn't have to be ONLY one kind of

> > virus. It doesn't even have to be a virus. It could be a

bacterial

> > infection. IT COULD BE A CHLAMYDIAL PNEUMONIA INFECTION OF THE

> > SINUSES - THAT COULD TRIGGER IT. Or mycoplasma infection of the

> > sinuses could trigger it. "

> > Q: " So it might not even be a viral-induced RNase-L. "

> > Dr. C: " No. No. It could be viral or other

intracellular

> > micro-organism-induced RNase-L. RNase-L IS THE KEY.

> > " RNase-L defends you from intracellular invasion.

> > Mycoplasmas are intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-l

> > Activity] is your defense. Viruses -including adenoviruses - are

> > intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-L Activity] is your

> > defense. Chlamydia pneumoniae is an intracellular invader and

your

> > defense is RNase-L. Whatever can invade the cell, this [RNase-L

> > Activity] is your primary defense.

> > " So it could be ANY of those triggers - which is why the

> > disease can look different in the beginning. But, everybody

merges

> > toward this problem [Phase II]. And what characterizes Phase II

> is:

> > my brain is going; my energy is going; and I hurt - although 10%

> > don't have much pain.

> >

> >

> >

> > This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

> with each

> > other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

> treatment

> > discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Please note that since 2001 he has been using antibiotics. Nelly, you

saw him in 1999. I think we have to credit him with making progress

and seeing new things while all the other cfs docs have turned

against him for this.

a

>

>

> [] Re: RnaseL

>

>

>

> <snip>

> > Well, the people who devised the RnaseL (Shadolnik, Lebleu etc.)

> didn't say

> > anything about bacterial infections they only mentioned viruses in

> > connection with RnaseL.

> >

> > Nelly

>

> Here is an excerpt from a Cheney tape in which he says that RNase-L

> dysfunction has many causes:

> " Some insult ultimately leads to cell dysfunction, usually

> through RNase-L activity.

> " Now RNase-L can also, as an intracellular defense

mechanism,

> be triggered by intracellular bacterial infections, not just

> viruses. For example, mycoplasma infections and/or chlamydia

> infections. "

> Q: So you would not call that the basis of CFS - there are

> people out there who say, " The reason you have CFS is because of a

> mycoplasma. "

> Dr. C: " It could trigger it, but isn't necessarily the

> cause of all cases. What seems to be the common denominator is

RNase-

> L defense mechanisms go up against certain types of intracellular

> pathogens that can hit - including viruses, mycoplasmas, chlamydias,

> etc.

> " And because of that, the nature of this viral infection can

> be quite variable. Because it doesn't have to be ONLY one kind of

> virus. It doesn't even have to be a virus. It could be a bacterial

> infection. IT COULD BE A CHLAMYDIAL PNEUMONIA INFECTION OF THE

> SINUSES - THAT COULD TRIGGER IT. Or mycoplasma infection of the

> sinuses could trigger it. "

> Q: " So it might not even be a viral-induced RNase-L. "

> Dr. C: " No. No. It could be viral or other intracellular

> micro-organism-induced RNase-L. RNase-L IS THE KEY.

> " RNase-L defends you from intracellular invasion.

> Mycoplasmas are intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-l

> Activity] is your defense. Viruses -including adenoviruses - are

> intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-L Activity] is your

> defense. Chlamydia pneumoniae is an intracellular invader and your

> defense is RNase-L. Whatever can invade the cell, this [RNase-L

> Activity] is your primary defense.

> " So it could be ANY of those triggers - which is why the

> disease can look different in the beginning. But, everybody merges

> toward this problem [Phase II]. And what characterizes Phase II

is:

> my brain is going; my energy is going; and I hurt - although 10%

> don't have much pain.

>

>

>

> This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences

with each

> other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

treatment

> discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello,

No one can put things quite as Tony does, but basically I agree with

him. You can learn a LOT about what your disease looks like from

Cheney, but he has no effective treatment.

Where do you live and do you want to see a Lyme doctor, a Brown

protocol arthritis doctor, or a cfs doctor? Perhaps I can find you

one.

a

> Amelia

> Are you after treatment or hot air.I think if you got in to see

> cheney, all he'll do is blow hot air up your a...s.And that's

> expenisve hot air.The guy is learning that things are absolutely

> stuffed cardiovascular wise, yet all he offers is multivitamins and

> is awaiting his pig cell trial therapies...These are the ones that

> are going to make the earth spin the other way.The guy is

expensive,

> and in my opinion generally just gets your mood right, as opposed

to

> getting your body right.buyer beware, start learning and more

> importantly learn to read between the lines of what his patints

> claim.. Just a thought, a paula that posts here is vbery familiar

> with his offices and his practises....

> tony

>

>

>

>

>

> > >

> > > [] Re: RnaseL

> > >

> > >

> > > --- In @y..., " Nelly Pointis " <janel@p...>

wrote:

> > > <snip>

> > > > Well, the people who devised the RnaseL (Shadolnik, Lebleu

etc.)

> > > didn't say

> > > > anything about bacterial infections they only mentioned

viruses

> in

> > > > connection with RnaseL.

> > > >

> > > > Nelly

> > >

> > > Here is an excerpt from a Cheney tape in which he says that

RNase-

> L

> > > dysfunction has many causes:

> > > " Some insult ultimately leads to cell dysfunction, usually

> > > through RNase-L activity.

> > > " Now RNase-L can also, as an intracellular defense

> > mechanism,

> > > be triggered by intracellular bacterial infections, not just

> > > viruses. For example, mycoplasma infections and/or chlamydia

> > > infections. "

> > > Q: So you would not call that the basis of CFS - there

> are

> > > people out there who say, " The reason you have CFS is because

of a

> > > mycoplasma. "

> > > Dr. C: " It could trigger it, but isn't necessarily the

> > > cause of all cases. What seems to be the common denominator is

> > RNase-

> > > L defense mechanisms go up against certain types of

intracellular

> > > pathogens that can hit - including viruses, mycoplasmas,

> chlamydias,

> > > etc.

> > > " And because of that, the nature of this viral

infection

> can

> > > be quite variable. Because it doesn't have to be ONLY one kind

of

> > > virus. It doesn't even have to be a virus. It could be a

> bacterial

> > > infection. IT COULD BE A CHLAMYDIAL PNEUMONIA INFECTION OF THE

> > > SINUSES - THAT COULD TRIGGER IT. Or mycoplasma infection of the

> > > sinuses could trigger it. "

> > > Q: " So it might not even be a viral-induced RNase-L. "

> > > Dr. C: " No. No. It could be viral or other

> intracellular

> > > micro-organism-induced RNase-L. RNase-L IS THE KEY.

> > > " RNase-L defends you from intracellular invasion.

> > > Mycoplasmas are intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-l

> > > Activity] is your defense. Viruses -including adenoviruses -

are

> > > intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-L Activity] is

your

> > > defense. Chlamydia pneumoniae is an intracellular invader and

> your

> > > defense is RNase-L. Whatever can invade the cell, this [RNase-L

> > > Activity] is your primary defense.

> > > " So it could be ANY of those triggers - which is why the

> > > disease can look different in the beginning. But, everybody

> merges

> > > toward this problem [Phase II]. And what characterizes Phase

II

> > is:

> > > my brain is going; my energy is going; and I hurt - although 10%

> > > don't have much pain.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > This list is intended for patients to share personal

experiences

> > with each

> > > other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in

any

> > treatment

> > > discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Nelly

You don't understand me at all unfortunately. I go in to my doctors

office and the guy is mesmerised because I talk the language of

commonsense.

My doctor never ever hears me sound generic-egs. I have this bug and

it needs treatment..I go in there and explain that when you've taken

a pounding your cirvculation resembles a burns patient and that just

as normal people expell body gasses and just move things, we can't,

and our 160 pulse rate or weird blood pressure responses are

indicators of this..I just basically plan on explaining to my doctor,

or whomever, a commonsensical approoach to understanding why we are

ill, and of course our hard work required to slowly improve..

Remember we do fall into commonsense medicine when many become

fibromyalgic/cfs after an accident or operation.I also notice that

ambulance drivers obvbiously know that letting someone 'dehydrate' or

loose 'blood volume' may put them in a 'coagulated blood' state,

or 'dehydrated state' that can lead onto these crappy ilnesses.This

is the reason why I tend to focus on the real as opposed to the

fashionable staelth bugs.I also have gone the whole nine yards with

bugs and have no problem doing all the different things that many do,

like blood smears, and observing what's standing out like dogs b...s.

If I spent a week with anyone supposedly suffering these alternative

diagnosis, I would have no problem replicating exavctly what Dr.

wright or whomever wants me to replicate to observe these

alternatives that you want me to focus on.Not only that!!! I would

have other microbiologists jumping thru hoops observing this stuff.I

have been in the lab at odd times when everyone was waiting behind a

microsocope to observe a parasitic infection in a patients stool

sample.Everyones like, check this out, check this out... So just

don't shift too far away from the real picture and focus on iffy

scenario's which require a totally different treatemnnt regime that

may not hit the mark.Rememebr we can create super infections by doing

the wrong drugs- as oftern happens with many of those on experimental

that blame antibiotoics on everything, and only talk nonsense, crap,

supplements.

> >

> >

> > [] Re: RnaseL

> >

> >

> > --- In @y..., " Nelly Pointis " <janel@p...>

wrote:

> > <snip>

> > > Well, the people who devised the RnaseL (Shadolnik, Lebleu

etc.)

> > didn't say

> > > anything about bacterial infections they only mentioned

viruses in

> > > connection with RnaseL.

> > >

> > > Nelly

> >

> > Here is an excerpt from a Cheney tape in which he says that

RNase-L

> > dysfunction has many causes:

> > " Some insult ultimately leads to cell dysfunction, usually

> > through RNase-L activity.

> > " Now RNase-L can also, as an intracellular defense

> mechanism,

> > be triggered by intracellular bacterial infections, not just

> > viruses. For example, mycoplasma infections and/or chlamydia

> > infections. "

> > Q: So you would not call that the basis of CFS - there are

> > people out there who say, " The reason you have CFS is because

of a

> > mycoplasma. "

> > Dr. C: " It could trigger it, but isn't necessarily the

> > cause of all cases. What seems to be the common denominator is

> RNase-

> > L defense mechanisms go up against certain types of

intracellular

> > pathogens that can hit - including viruses, mycoplasmas,

chlamydias,

> > etc.

> > " And because of that, the nature of this viral infection can

> > be quite variable. Because it doesn't have to be ONLY one kind

of

> > virus. It doesn't even have to be a virus. It could be a

bacterial

> > infection. IT COULD BE A CHLAMYDIAL PNEUMONIA INFECTION OF THE

> > SINUSES - THAT COULD TRIGGER IT. Or mycoplasma infection of the

> > sinuses could trigger it. "

> > Q: " So it might not even be a viral-induced RNase-L. "

> > Dr. C: " No. No. It could be viral or other intracellular

> > micro-organism-induced RNase-L. RNase-L IS THE KEY.

> > " RNase-L defends you from intracellular invasion.

> > Mycoplasmas are intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-l

> > Activity] is your defense. Viruses -including adenoviruses - are

> > intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-L Activity] is

your

> > defense. Chlamydia pneumoniae is an intracellular invader and

your

> > defense is RNase-L. Whatever can invade the cell, this [RNase-L

> > Activity] is your primary defense.

> > " So it could be ANY of those triggers - which is why the

> > disease can look different in the beginning. But, everybody

merges

> > toward this problem [Phase II]. And what characterizes Phase II

> is:

> > my brain is going; my energy is going; and I hurt - although 10%

> > don't have much pain.

> >

> >

> >

> > This list is intended for patients to share personal

experiences

> with each

> > other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any

> treatment

> > discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> > >

> > > [] Re: RnaseL

> > >

> > >

> > > --- In @y..., " Nelly Pointis " <janel@p...>

wrote:

> > > <snip>

> > > > Well, the people who devised the RnaseL (Shadolnik, Lebleu

etc.)

> > > didn't say

> > > > anything about bacterial infections they only mentioned

viruses

> in

> > > > connection with RnaseL.

> > > >

> > > > Nelly

> > >

> > > Here is an excerpt from a Cheney tape in which he says that

RNase-

> L

> > > dysfunction has many causes:

> > > " Some insult ultimately leads to cell dysfunction, usually

> > > through RNase-L activity.

> > > " Now RNase-L can also, as an intracellular defense

> > mechanism,

> > > be triggered by intracellular bacterial infections, not just

> > > viruses. For example, mycoplasma infections and/or chlamydia

> > > infections. "

> > > Q: So you would not call that the basis of CFS - there

> are

> > > people out there who say, " The reason you have CFS is because

of a

> > > mycoplasma. "

> > > Dr. C: " It could trigger it, but isn't necessarily the

> > > cause of all cases. What seems to be the common denominator is

> > RNase-

> > > L defense mechanisms go up against certain types of

intracellular

> > > pathogens that can hit - including viruses, mycoplasmas,

> chlamydias,

> > > etc.

> > > " And because of that, the nature of this viral

infection

> can

> > > be quite variable. Because it doesn't have to be ONLY one kind

of

> > > virus. It doesn't even have to be a virus. It could be a

> bacterial

> > > infection. IT COULD BE A CHLAMYDIAL PNEUMONIA INFECTION OF THE

> > > SINUSES - THAT COULD TRIGGER IT. Or mycoplasma infection of the

> > > sinuses could trigger it. "

> > > Q: " So it might not even be a viral-induced RNase-L. "

> > > Dr. C: " No. No. It could be viral or other

> intracellular

> > > micro-organism-induced RNase-L. RNase-L IS THE KEY.

> > > " RNase-L defends you from intracellular invasion.

> > > Mycoplasmas are intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-l

> > > Activity] is your defense. Viruses -including adenoviruses -

are

> > > intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-L Activity] is

your

> > > defense. Chlamydia pneumoniae is an intracellular invader and

> your

> > > defense is RNase-L. Whatever can invade the cell, this [RNase-L

> > > Activity] is your primary defense.

> > > " So it could be ANY of those triggers - which is why the

> > > disease can look different in the beginning. But, everybody

> merges

> > > toward this problem [Phase II]. And what characterizes Phase

II

> > is:

> > > my brain is going; my energy is going; and I hurt - although 10%

> > > don't have much pain.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > This list is intended for patients to share personal

experiences

> > with each

> > > other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in

any

> > treatment

> > > discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Amelia,

I am not sure what you are asking me. I never said Dr. Cheney was

full of hot air. I said he has an excellent understanding of our

diseases but has no effective treatment.

Yes, I lived 30 miles from Dr. Cheney's office for quite some time.

No, I did not see patients improving on his treatments. The Charlotte

support group was exceedingly depressing. My husband freaked out when

they started selling CFIDS tee shirts. I was getting better. They

were getting tee shirts.

I offered to see if I could find you a good doctor in your area

wherever that might be.

No, I don't think I have almost had heart failure, just severe blood

pressure disorder. What test did you have run to diagnose

the " compensatory cardiomyopathy? " I haven't kept up with his latest

studies. I really did not want to think that I had an open hole

between the chambers of my heart. Besides I had a heart cath a couple

of years ago showing a completely normal heart, so I figured I didn't

have his latest finding. How many hearts have they checked for this

defect? Did you have it?

a

> Dear Dumb,

>

> I believe that you are the one full of " hot air " ...as Dr. Cheney

has

> described my situation to a tee, and " compensatory cardiomyopathy "

is

> a hard diagnosis to treat, as CFS is the solution, at this

> point...but I am not one who likes to argue..it is a waste of my

> limited time.

>

> However, a...

>

> I would be interested to know, if you were located where Dr. Cheney

> practices, what specifically, has he done that shows he is full

> of " hot air " ? and have you, actually, had overt symptoms of near

> heart failure? and I do not mean cardiac herxing, as I have not

been

> on any anti-microbial treatments for a good long time.

>

> Amelia>

[Guest guest]

Dearest AMelia.

I'm very excited that you are in good hands visiting your fav.

doctor. Personally someone at the heart of the incline village

episode wherby many hundreds of people were struck down with

something obviously resembling a respiratory pathogen, that didn't

get diagnosed, and now takes out hearts and they are classified

cardiomyoptahy(often viral pathology)... I don't know what to say, or

where to start.Did you get magnesium, coq10 supplementation from your

hero?What is the treatment of choice, cup your hands in front of your

face?Did you read Nelly explaining how her long term antibiotic

protocol fixed her heart arrythmia? Or would you like your doctors

approach, blow hot air up your rear, and get someone to fit you up

with a pacemaker.

Amelia everyone on the experimental site has some form of festering

infection, many of whom are Cheney patients....why after 30 years

can't he diagnose a virus/bacteria /fungi that may be at the heart of

all this mess.

Also, I was thrown off the cfs about forum 5 years earlier for

suggesting that having an 80/50 90/50 blood pressure equals a

possable endocarditis (infection of the heart).. I also mentioned

frequently that a pulse rate of over 90 beats per minute is called a

tachycardia and it's also a sign of infecion... mine sat at 100-120

for the first year.All this information was found at the hospital

medical library.......When you strongly feel that your patient is

suffering from this, you do a paracentisis and culture the fluid from

the pericardial sac around the heart. Viral and bacterial cultures

are possable.Another thing that I learnt is that your normal

echocardiograph is useless and you can do a couple of extended echo

cardiographs that come in from the top of the heart, and the results

are more precise...What do you do? I can't wait to run off and take

some more magnesium..and practise my cupping techniques.

tony

> > > > <snip>

> > > > > Well, the people who devised the RnaseL (Shadolnik, Lebleu

> etc.)

> > > > didn't say

> > > > > anything about bacterial infections they only mentioned

> viruses

> > in

> > > > > connection with RnaseL.

> > > > >

> > > > > Nelly

> > > >

> > > > Here is an excerpt from a Cheney tape in which he says that

> RNase-

> > L

> > > > dysfunction has many causes:

> > > > " Some insult ultimately leads to cell dysfunction, usually

> > > > through RNase-L activity.

> > > > " Now RNase-L can also, as an intracellular defense

> > > mechanism,

> > > > be triggered by intracellular bacterial infections, not just

> > > > viruses. For example, mycoplasma infections and/or chlamydia

> > > > infections. "

> > > > Q: So you would not call that the basis of CFS -

there

> > are

> > > > people out there who say, " The reason you have CFS is because

> of a

> > > > mycoplasma. "

> > > > Dr. C: " It could trigger it, but isn't necessarily

the

> > > > cause of all cases. What seems to be the common denominator

is

> > > RNase-

> > > > L defense mechanisms go up against certain types of

> intracellular

> > > > pathogens that can hit - including viruses, mycoplasmas,

> > chlamydias,

> > > > etc.

> > > > " And because of that, the nature of this viral

> infection

> > can

> > > > be quite variable. Because it doesn't have to be ONLY one

kind

> of

> > > > virus. It doesn't even have to be a virus. It could be a

> > bacterial

> > > > infection. IT COULD BE A CHLAMYDIAL PNEUMONIA INFECTION OF

THE

> > > > SINUSES - THAT COULD TRIGGER IT. Or mycoplasma infection of

the

> > > > sinuses could trigger it. "

> > > > Q: " So it might not even be a viral-induced RNase-

L. "

> > > > Dr. C: " No. No. It could be viral or other

> > intracellular

> > > > micro-organism-induced RNase-L. RNase-L IS THE KEY.

> > > > " RNase-L defends you from intracellular invasion.

> > > > Mycoplasmas are intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-

l

> > > > Activity] is your defense. Viruses -including adenoviruses -

> are

> > > > intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-L Activity] is

> your

> > > > defense. Chlamydia pneumoniae is an intracellular invader

and

> > your

> > > > defense is RNase-L. Whatever can invade the cell, this [RNase-

L

> > > > Activity] is your primary defense.

> > > > " So it could be ANY of those triggers - which is why the

> > > > disease can look different in the beginning. But, everybody

> > merges

> > > > toward this problem [Phase II]. And what characterizes

Phase

> II

> > > is:

> > > > my brain is going; my energy is going; and I hurt - although

10%

> > > > don't have much pain.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal

> experiences

> > > with each

> > > > other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in

> any

> > > treatment

> > > > discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Tony,

I don't know about Amelia, but my wife was a patient of Cheney's before

he developed his cardiomyopathy theory, and he gave both CoQ10 and

Magnesimum (the latter intra muscular). He was big on injectable B12

in the form of hydroxycobalmin as well. The latter two were things

that helped my wife's CFS symptoms about 5% each and she still takes

them.

My assessment of Cheney is that he deserves credit along with Dr

sen, with whom he shared a practice in Incline Village, for

recognizing that there was a serious epidemic in progress and

attempting to get the CDC involved in determining its cause. He also

deserves credit for devoting his life to seeking effective treatments,

ever since. Alas, I must agree that this quest has been basically a

failure. My wife did not improve under his care, and we did not see

others improve. And an appointment with Cheney consists mostly of

Cheney "holding forth" about this year's exciting new treatment, on

your nickel. He is a relentlessly positive individual, always,

thinking, always coming up with things to try ... things he is sure

will be a breakthrough Any Day Now. And he really believes it.

His interest in the cardiac angle has a lot to do with the fact that he

recently had a heart transplant. Ironically, the cause was a viral

cardiac infection.

Bottom line, in this writer's view ... the man is well meaning and

sincere, and Never Gives Up ... yet has little more to offer than any

other doctor treating chronic illness. And to my knowledge he does not

screen or treat for chronic infections of any kind, although as an

integrative medicine type, he is certainly aware of Lyme, and the work

done by, for instance, Schoemaker on mold and environmental illness.

He just doesn't, for whatever reason, go there, unless his own

near-death experience has modified that in recent years.

I also feel constrained to repeat, that a diagnosis of CFS / CFIDS / ME

is fairly unhelpful to anyone thanks to lousy (and deteriorating) case

definitions. Case in point, the first time my wife visited Cheney's

clinic, the patient that came in after my wife actually drove herself

up from Atlanta, and still had the energy to talk a mile a minute. One

of those people you just can't get away from. This woman supposedly

had CFS. And with the lax case definition, she probably qualified.

When you have such a heterogenous patient population, with

independently traveling chatterboxes on one end and people who are

bed-bound and can barely speak on the other end, what useful

conclusions can you make in studying the syndrome?

--Bob

dumbaussie2000 wrote:

Dearest AMelia.

I'm very excited that you are in good hands visiting your fav.

doctor. Personally someone at the heart of the incline village

episode wherby many hundreds of people were struck down with

something obviously resembling a respiratory pathogen, that didn't

get diagnosed, and now takes out hearts and they are classified

cardiomyoptahy(often viral pathology)... I don't know what to

say, or

where to start.Did you get magnesium, coq10 supplementation from your

hero?What is the treatment of choice, cup your hands in front of your

face?Did you read Nelly explaining how her long term antibiotic

protocol fixed her heart arrythmia? Or would you like your doctors

approach, blow hot air up your rear, and get someone to fit you up

with a pacemaker.

Amelia everyone on the experimental site has some form of festering

infection, many of whom are Cheney patients....why after 30 years

can't he diagnose a virus/bacteria /fungi that may be at the heart of

all this mess.

Also, I was thrown off the cfs about forum 5 years earlier for

suggesting that having an 80/50 90/50 blood pressure equals a

possable endocarditis (infection of the heart).. I also mentioned

frequently that a pulse rate of over 90 beats per minute is called a

tachycardia and it's also a sign of infecion... mine sat at 100-120

for the first year.All this information was found at the hospital

medical library.......When you strongly feel that your patient is

suffering from this, you do a paracentisis and culture the fluid from

the pericardial sac around the heart. Viral and bacterial cultures

are possable.Another thing that I learnt is that your normal

echocardiograph is useless and you can do a couple of extended echo

cardiographs that come in from the top of the heart, and the results

are more precise...What do you do? I can't wait to run off and take

some more magnesium..and practise my cupping techniques.

tony

> > > > <snip>

> > > > > Well, the people who devised the RnaseL

(Shadolnik, Lebleu

> etc.)

> > > > didn't say

> > > > > anything about bacterial infections they only

mentioned

> viruses

> > in

> > > > > connection with RnaseL.

> > > > >

> > > > > Nelly

> > > >

> > > > Here is an excerpt from a Cheney tape in which he

says that

> RNase-

> > L

> > > > dysfunction has many causes:

> > > > "Some insult ultimately leads to cell dysfunction,

usually

> > > > through RNase-L activity.

> > > > "Now RNase-L can also, as an intracellular defense

> > > mechanism,

> > > > be triggered by intracellular bacterial infections,

not just

> > > > viruses. For example, mycoplasma infections and/or

chlamydia

> > > > infections."

> > > > Q: So you would not call that the basis of CFS -

there

> > are

> > > > people out there who say, "The reason you have CFS

is because

> of a

> > > > mycoplasma."

> > > > Dr. C: "It could trigger it, but isn't necessarily

the

> > > > cause of all cases. What seems to be the common

denominator

is

> > > RNase-

> > > > L defense mechanisms go up against certain types of

> intracellular

> > > > pathogens that can hit - including viruses,

mycoplasmas,

> > chlamydias,

> > > > etc.

> > > > "And because of that, the nature of this viral

> infection

> > can

> > > > be quite variable. Because it doesn't have to be

ONLY one

kind

> of

> > > > virus. It doesn't even have to be a virus. It could

be a

> > bacterial

> > > > infection. IT COULD BE A CHLAMYDIAL PNEUMONIA

INFECTION OF

THE

> > > > SINUSES - THAT COULD TRIGGER IT. Or mycoplasma

infection of

the

> > > > sinuses could trigger it."

> > > > Q: "So it might not even be a viral-induced RNase-

L."

> > > > Dr. C: "No. No. It could be viral or other

> > intracellular

> > > > micro-organism-induced RNase-L. RNase-L IS THE

KEY.

> > > > "RNase-L defends you from intracellular invasion.

> > > > Mycoplasmas are intracellular invaders, therefore

this [RNase-

l

> > > > Activity] is your defense. Viruses -including

adenoviruses -

> are

> > > > intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-L

Activity] is

> your

> > > > defense. Chlamydia pneumoniae is an intracellular

invader

and

> > your

> > > > defense is RNase-L. Whatever can invade the cell,

this [RNase-

L

> > > > Activity] is your primary defense.

> > > > "So it could be ANY of those triggers - which is

why the

> > > > disease can look different in the beginning. But,

everybody

> > merges

> > > > toward this problem [Phase II]. And what

characterizes

Phase

> II

> > > is:

> > > > my brain is going; my energy is going; and I hurt -

although

10%

> > > > don't have much pain.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > This list is intended for patients to share

personal

> experiences

> > > with each

> > > > other, not to give medical advice. If you are

interested in

> any

> > > treatment

> > > > discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Bob

I'm not a medical person, when I was struck down with

cfs/fibromyalgia (basically a painfull nightmare scenario) I devised

ways and means to get to the bottom of this bad joke.I studied at the

medical library which claimed that INFECTIOUS ARTHRITIS CONDITIONS in

adults are mainly caused by gonococci and staphylococci. My main

objective now was to get my blood cultured for these organisms-

That's 'blood cultures', (something cheney wouldn't know exists)

because in my five years of reading forums it doesn't come up

anywhere as something to try... although I must admit it's difficulkt

unless you have millions of organisms turning your blood culture

bottles white- they assume you grew nothing in your blood unless this

occurs.But I was lucky and whamo there in my blood was the

staphylococci.. causing me neck stiffness and sore joints(infectious

arthritis).This organism is also the organism causing me sinusitis

and all the gunk constantly travelling down the back of my throat.

What would I want to do other than study how to get rid of a huge

infection.. Most proffesional(pharmacists/microbiologists) people

that know about big infections also explain the difficulty in

treating them.

Anyway to cut the story short I am currently 110% normal and have no

symptoms of ilness by being aggresive at treating the flippin'

obvious. So basically if cheney bothered 30 years ago to take a

symptom and investigate further and treat and monitor, you'd have

none of this nonsense called cfs because many of his patients would

be screaming from the rafters how they felt better while treatment

was being undertaken.

> > > > > > <snip>

> > > > > > > Well, the people who devised the RnaseL (Shadolnik,

Lebleu

> > > etc.)

> > > > > > didn't say

> > > > > > > anything about bacterial infections they only mentioned

> > > viruses

> > > > in

> > > > > > > connection with RnaseL.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Nelly

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Here is an excerpt from a Cheney tape in which he says

that

> > > RNase-

> > > > L

> > > > > > dysfunction has many causes:

> > > > > > " Some insult ultimately leads to cell dysfunction, usually

> > > > > > through RNase-L activity.

> > > > > > " Now RNase-L can also, as an intracellular defense

> > > > > mechanism,

> > > > > > be triggered by intracellular bacterial infections, not

just

> > > > > > viruses. For example, mycoplasma infections and/or

chlamydia

> > > > > > infections. "

> > > > > > Q: So you would not call that the basis of CFS -

> > there

> > > > are

> > > > > > people out there who say, " The reason you have CFS is

because

> > > of a

> > > > > > mycoplasma. "

> > > > > > Dr. C: " It could trigger it, but isn't necessarily

> > the

> > > > > > cause of all cases. What seems to be the common

denominator

> > is

> > > > > RNase-

> > > > > > L defense mechanisms go up against certain types of

> > > intracellular

> > > > > > pathogens that can hit - including viruses, mycoplasmas,

> > > > chlamydias,

> > > > > > etc.

> > > > > > " And because of that, the nature of this viral

> > > infection

> > > > can

> > > > > > be quite variable. Because it doesn't have to be ONLY one

> > kind

> > > of

> > > > > > virus. It doesn't even have to be a virus. It could be a

> > > > bacterial

> > > > > > infection. IT COULD BE A CHLAMYDIAL PNEUMONIA INFECTION OF

> > THE

> > > > > > SINUSES - THAT COULD TRIGGER IT. Or mycoplasma infection

of

> > the

> > > > > > sinuses could trigger it. "

> > > > > > Q: " So it might not even be a viral-induced RNase-

> > L. "

> > > > > > Dr. C: " No. No. It could be viral or other

> > > > intracellular

> > > > > > micro-organism-induced RNase-L. RNase-L IS THE KEY.

> > > > > > " RNase-L defends you from intracellular invasion.

> > > > > > Mycoplasmas are intracellular invaders, therefore this

[RNase-

> > l

> > > > > > Activity] is your defense. Viruses -including

adenoviruses -

> > > are

> > > > > > intracellular invaders, therefore this [RNase-L Activity]

is

> > > your

> > > > > > defense. Chlamydia pneumoniae is an intracellular invader

> > and

> > > > your

> > > > > > defense is RNase-L. Whatever can invade the cell, this

[RNase-

> > L

> > > > > > Activity] is your primary defense.

> > > > > > " So it could be ANY of those triggers - which is why the

> > > > > > disease can look different in the beginning. But,

everybody

> > > > merges

> > > > > > toward this problem [Phase II]. And what characterizes

> > Phase

> > > II

> > > > > is:

> > > > > > my brain is going; my energy is going; and I hurt -

although

> > 10%

> > > > > > don't have much pain.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This list is intended for patients to share personal

> > > experiences

> > > > > with each

> > > > > > other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested

in

> > > any

> > > > > treatment

> > > > > > discussed here, please consult your doctor.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

I would hope they did cultures and smears at Incline. Maybe they didnt

see anything on them. I think Cheney and or wrote a long

report on the epidemic. One could look there for such information.

[Guest guest]

I think the problem we are up against is that even smart doctors like

Cheney do only routine lab tests for various infections. In the

mid 90s he and others looked at the mycoplasma issue. I know a surgeon

from Knoxville who was Cheney's patient. He was one of the few who

talked Cheney into trying a lot of antibiotics on him. Unfortunately

for him and a lot of the rest of us this patient did not recover on

antibiotics.

I was treated by Dr. Flechas at this same time. He was involved

with Aristo Vojdani in a research study. I tested positive by PCR for

the mycoplasma, got antibiotics, knew I had to take them a couple of

years at least and began to recover. If I had quit the antibiotics at

the end of 4 months I would still be like the patients I saw for years

at the Charlotte support groups - dragging in, walking with canes, in

wheel chairs, spaced out, on various brain altering drugs trying

desperately to keep going from one hour to the next.

Did Cheney et al test their patients? Do they? Well, just to give you

one clue - ask them what lab they use to test all their cfs and fms

patients for borrelia. How much do you want to bet it is Quest or

LabCorp. NO WONDER THERE ARE NO DIAGNOSES. And, yes, I am yelling. It

makes me sick to realize what is being done to this community who have

a chronic infection of one sort or another.

Tony, move over, I want to join your camp.

a

>

> I would hope they did cultures and smears at Incline. Maybe they

didnt

> see anything on them. I think Cheney and or wrote a long

> report on the epidemic. One could look there for such information.

>

[Guest guest]

Well now some 8 to 10 years

too late we have figured out that this might be a useful band-wagon,

too. The problem for my wife is that she is so desperately ill with

MCS on top of CFS, that she is reactive to almost everything. For

example, just 50 mg of mino causes her *violent* stomach pain that

takes weeks to blow over. We have a doctor who wants to treat her for

Lyme and myco, but feels like his hands are tied because virtually

everything he gives her makes her ill in other ways. Even healthy

people struggle with die-off toxins; my wife can scarcely detox at all.

Anyone else have this experience where their detox pathways are shot,

no elbow room for anything? Anyone know a way out?

--Bob

pjeanneus wrote:

I think the problem we are up against is that even smart doctors

like

Cheney do only routine lab tests for various infections. In the

mid 90s he and others looked at the mycoplasma issue. I know a surgeon

from Knoxville who was Cheney's patient. He was one of the few who

talked Cheney into trying a lot of antibiotics on him. Unfortunately

for him and a lot of the rest of us this patient did not recover on

antibiotics.

I was treated by Dr. Flechas at this same time. He was involved

with Aristo Vojdani in a research study. I tested positive by PCR for

the mycoplasma, got antibiotics, knew I had to take them a couple of

years at least and began to recover. If I had quit the antibiotics at

the end of 4 months I would still be like the patients I saw for years

at the Charlotte support groups - dragging in, walking with canes, in

wheel chairs, spaced out, on various brain altering drugs trying

desperately to keep going from one hour to the next.

Did Cheney et al test their patients? Do they? Well, just to give you

one clue - ask them what lab they use to test all their cfs and fms

patients for borrelia. How much do you want to bet it is Quest or

LabCorp. NO WONDER THERE ARE NO DIAGNOSES. And, yes, I am yelling. It

makes me sick to realize what is being done to this community who have

a chronic infection of one sort or another.

Tony, move over, I want to join your camp.

a

[Guest guest]

a

You know most of medicine has been culture and SENSITIVITIES for

giving antibiotics. If I threw out this approach I can only get you a

bigger infection, unless you did the tetracycline family of

antibiotics.The tetracyclines will keep cuttiong down infections- but

to a certain point...they need the sensitivity test to work out the

better angles of attack.Rotating tetracyclines is a small positive

IMO.Also if there was a no pay/no well policy with doctors like

this, in a couple of months the whole picture would change.

It's also sad that they throw out THE ACTUAL COMMONSENSE PART- which

is that a group of people got exposed to an agent that knocked them

out..Rich I hope your reading this?..this genetic deformation angle

and the rest of the crap being fed up by the shovel load is making me

puke on my keyboard...The worst part is that they are going to solve

the worlds problems without the tough harsh drugs, but flowers and

poppies and a few wild weeds, woo hoo i can feel a commune coming on.

>

> I think the problem we are up against is that even smart doctors

like

> Cheney do only routine lab tests for various infections. In

the

> mid 90s he and others looked at the mycoplasma issue. I know a

surgeon

> from Knoxville who was Cheney's patient. He was one of the few who

> talked Cheney into trying a lot of antibiotics on him.

Unfortunately

> for him and a lot of the rest of us this patient did not recover on

> antibiotics.

>

> I was treated by Dr. Flechas at this same time. He was

involved

> with Aristo Vojdani in a research study. I tested positive by PCR

for

> the mycoplasma, got antibiotics, knew I had to take them a couple

of

> years at least and began to recover. If I had quit the antibiotics

at

> the end of 4 months I would still be like the patients I saw for

years

> at the Charlotte support groups - dragging in, walking with canes,

in

> wheel chairs, spaced out, on various brain altering drugs trying

> desperately to keep going from one hour to the next.

>

> Did Cheney et al test their patients? Do they? Well, just to give

you

> one clue - ask them what lab they use to test all their cfs and fms

> patients for borrelia. How much do you want to bet it is Quest or

> LabCorp. NO WONDER THERE ARE NO DIAGNOSES. And, yes, I am yelling.

It

> makes me sick to realize what is being done to this community who

have

> a chronic infection of one sort or another.

>

> Tony, move over, I want to join your camp.

>

> a

>

>

> >

> > I would hope they did cultures and smears at Incline. Maybe they

> didnt

> > see anything on them. I think Cheney and or wrote a long

> > report on the epidemic. One could look there for such information.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Bob,

Yes, I think there is hope. But it may be like walking a tightrope.

Mino can be the worst to start with.

If she has food sensitivities how about trying a diet with no gluten?

She may not need this forever - just until she is doing better.

Can she tolerate dairy? I would suggest finding a whole milk yogurt

such as Strauss organic European style.

Then start her on Zithromax and see if she tolerates it well. If she

does she can stay on it for a couple of years. During this time she

may want to try minocycline again. Once her gut heals you may be

surprised at what she can take that now makes her sick.

Are you in a home with mold? Do you have any idea? She probably must

get away from any source of mold at least until she begins to recover.

Please reply to my ideas, because if they seem like they don't fit

her picture I am sure someone on this list will have others!!!!

a

>

> Well now some 8 to 10 years too late we have figured out that this

might

> be a useful band-wagon, too. The problem for my wife is that she

is so

> desperately ill with MCS on top of CFS, that she is reactive to

almost

> everything. For example, just 50 mg of mino causes her *violent*

> stomach pain that takes weeks to blow over. We have a doctor who

wants

> to treat her for Lyme and myco, but feels like his hands are tied

> because virtually everything he gives her makes her ill in other

ways.

> Even healthy people struggle with die-off toxins; my wife can

scarcely

> detox at all.

>

> Anyone else have this experience where their detox pathways are

shot, no

> elbow room for anything? Anyone know a way out?

>

> --Bob

>

> pjeanneus wrote:

> >

> > I think the problem we are up against is that even smart doctors

like

> > Cheney do only routine lab tests for various infections. In

the

> > mid 90s he and others looked at the mycoplasma issue. I know a

surgeon

> > from Knoxville who was Cheney's patient. He was one of the few who

> > talked Cheney into trying a lot of antibiotics on him.

Unfortunately

> > for him and a lot of the rest of us this patient did not recover

on

> > antibiotics.

> >

> > I was treated by Dr. Flechas at this same time. He was

involved

> > with Aristo Vojdani in a research study. I tested positive by PCR

for

> > the mycoplasma, got antibiotics, knew I had to take them a couple

of

> > years at least and began to recover. If I had quit the

antibiotics at

> > the end of 4 months I would still be like the patients I saw for

years

> > at the Charlotte support groups - dragging in, walking with

canes, in

> > wheel chairs, spaced out, on various brain altering drugs trying

> > desperately to keep going from one hour to the next.

> >

> > Did Cheney et al test their patients? Do they? Well, just to give

you

> > one clue - ask them what lab they use to test all their cfs and

fms

> > patients for borrelia. How much do you want to bet it is Quest or

> > LabCorp. NO WONDER THERE ARE NO DIAGNOSES. And, yes, I am

yelling. It

> > makes me sick to realize what is being done to this community who

have

> > a chronic infection of one sort or another.

> >

> > Tony, move over, I want to join your camp.

> >

> > a

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Bob

It's all in the slime. The srtuff that keeps drippin down her throat

that is being manufactured in the sinus. Unless she has dried up like

those sjogren's patients?The sinus and respiratory system are loaded

with pathogens that are highly antimicrobial resistant and jump at

the first sign or hint of incoming chemical threat.I would go a

heavy, salty, saline nebulizer attack to break some of this stuff

down..Just reproduce an ocean mist on her respiratory system.

tony

> >

> > I think the problem we are up against is that even smart doctors

like

> > Cheney do only routine lab tests for various infections. In

the

> > mid 90s he and others looked at the mycoplasma issue. I know a

surgeon

> > from Knoxville who was Cheney's patient. He was one of the few who

> > talked Cheney into trying a lot of antibiotics on him.

Unfortunately

> > for him and a lot of the rest of us this patient did not recover

on

> > antibiotics.

> >

> > I was treated by Dr. Flechas at this same time. He was

involved

> > with Aristo Vojdani in a research study. I tested positive by PCR

for

> > the mycoplasma, got antibiotics, knew I had to take them a couple

of

> > years at least and began to recover. If I had quit the

antibiotics at

> > the end of 4 months I would still be like the patients I saw for

years

> > at the Charlotte support groups - dragging in, walking with

canes, in

> > wheel chairs, spaced out, on various brain altering drugs trying

> > desperately to keep going from one hour to the next.

> >

> > Did Cheney et al test their patients? Do they? Well, just to give

you

> > one clue - ask them what lab they use to test all their cfs and

fms

> > patients for borrelia. How much do you want to bet it is Quest or

> > LabCorp. NO WONDER THERE ARE NO DIAGNOSES. And, yes, I am

yelling. It

> > makes me sick to realize what is being done to this community who

have

> > a chronic infection of one sort or another.

> >

> > Tony, move over, I want to join your camp.

> >

> > a

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

She is not eating any

gluten. She is down to maybe a half dozen foods she can tolerate,

basically organic meat and greens.

House is mold free, confirmed by recent tests. No carpeting, 100%

porcelain tile, threw half our personal possessions out. Everything

that can be done there, has definitely been done. In addition we live

in the Sonoran desert.

She can and does drink organic milk and yogurt.

Zithro ... by itself? Maybe ... the problem is that if it works, and

can be tolerated for any length of time, it is going to produce die

off, and she has to get rid of the toxins somehow. That is what has

the doctor stumped. Last September her autonomic nervous system went

bonkers -- all sorts of arrhythmias, BP fluctuation, loss of body temp

control ... presently she can't read, can't watch a video, listen to

music ... it's too much input. Overloads her. This is neurotoxicity.

I think this has to be dealt with somehow before we can add more toxins

into the mix. I assume that the MCS that's developed over the past 5

or 6 years reflects the inability to keep bad stuff out, and to get rid

of it once it's in.

Also as a practical matter, after 30 years of chronic illness, starting

with sudden-onset CFS, she is pretty much worn down to the nubbins.

Not much fight left. And this is going to be a hell of a fight.

--Bob

pjeanneus wrote:

Bob,

Yes, I think there is hope. But it may be like walking a tightrope.

Mino can be the worst to start with.

If she has food sensitivities how about trying a diet with no gluten?

She may not need this forever - just until she is doing better.

Can she tolerate dairy? I would suggest finding a whole milk yogurt

such as Strauss organic European style.

Then start her on Zithromax and see if she tolerates it well. If she

does she can stay on it for a couple of years. During this time she

may want to try minocycline again. Once her gut heals you may be

surprised at what she can take that now makes her sick.

Are you in a home with mold? Do you have any idea? She probably must

get away from any source of mold at least until she begins to recover.

Please reply to my ideas, because if they seem like they don't fit

her picture I am sure someone on this list will have others!!!!

a

>

> Well now some 8 to 10 years too late we have figured out that this

might

> be a useful band-wagon, too. The problem for my wife is that she

is so

> desperately ill with MCS on top of CFS, that she is reactive to

almost

> everything. For example, just 50 mg of mino causes her *violent*

> stomach pain that takes weeks to blow over. We have a doctor who

wants

> to treat her for Lyme and myco, but feels like his hands are tied

> because virtually everything he gives her makes her ill in other

ways.

> Even healthy people struggle with die-off toxins; my wife can

scarcely

> detox at all.

>

> Anyone else have this experience where their detox pathways are

shot, no

> elbow room for anything? Anyone know a way out?

>

> --Bob

>

> pjeanneus wrote:

> >

> > I think the problem we are up against is that even smart

doctors

like

> > Cheney do only routine lab tests for various infections.

In

the

> > mid 90s he and others looked at the mycoplasma issue. I know

a

surgeon

> > from Knoxville who was Cheney's patient. He was one of the

few who

> > talked Cheney into trying a lot of antibiotics on him.

Unfortunately

> > for him and a lot of the rest of us this patient did not

recover

on

> > antibiotics.

> >

> > I was treated by Dr. Flechas at this same time. He was

involved

> > with Aristo Vojdani in a research study. I tested positive by

PCR

for

> > the mycoplasma, got antibiotics, knew I had to take them a

couple

of

> > years at least and began to recover. If I had quit the

antibiotics at

> > the end of 4 months I would still be like the patients I saw

for

years

> > at the Charlotte support groups - dragging in, walking with

canes, in

> > wheel chairs, spaced out, on various brain altering drugs

trying

> > desperately to keep going from one hour to the next.

> >

> > Did Cheney et al test their patients? Do they? Well, just to

give

you

> > one clue - ask them what lab they use to test all their cfs

and

fms

> > patients for borrelia. How much do you want to bet it is

Quest or

> > LabCorp. NO WONDER THERE ARE NO DIAGNOSES. And, yes, I am

yelling. It

> > makes me sick to realize what is being done to this community

who

have

> > a chronic infection of one sort or another.

> >

> > Tony, move over, I want to join your camp.

> >

> > a

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Except that nebulizers have

plastic tubing, to which she is reactive. That's the trouble once you

are reactive to VOC's -- they are everywhere.

Tony, people with MCS can and do react in terms of asthma attacks and

the like, but that is often the least of it. The basic problem is the

wrong molecules crossing the blood/brain barrier, that getting in

through the gut. The responses include brain fog / cognitive

difficulties, tremors and other neurotoxic syx, digestive problems,

skin reactions, general inflammatory responses, etc.

It's thought that the process starts with what's called "kindling" ...

causing neurons to fire at lower and lower thresholds.

An excellent overview is here:

www.ilru.org/html/publications/bookshelf/MCS.html

Are pathogens involved? Probably. Whether MCS itself is sustained by

pathogens, or merely set in motion by them, or exacerbated by them, I

don't pretend to know. My wife definitely has Lyme and mycoplasma, and

needs abx ... the MCS overlay gets in the way of that.

--Bob

dumbaussie2000 wrote:

Bob

It's all in the slime. The srtuff that keeps drippin down her throat

that is being manufactured in the sinus. Unless she has dried up like

those sjogren's patients?The sinus and respiratory system are loaded

with pathogens that are highly antimicrobial resistant and jump at

the first sign or hint of incoming chemical threat.I would go a

heavy, salty, saline nebulizer attack to break some of this stuff

down..Just reproduce an ocean mist on her respiratory system.

tony

> >

> > I think the problem we are up against is that even smart

doctors

like

> > Cheney do only routine lab tests for various infections.

In

the

> > mid 90s he and others looked at the mycoplasma issue. I know

a

surgeon

> > from Knoxville who was Cheney's patient. He was one of the

few who

> > talked Cheney into trying a lot of antibiotics on him.

Unfortunately

> > for him and a lot of the rest of us this patient did not

recover

on

> > antibiotics.

> >

> > I was treated by Dr. Flechas at this same time. He was

involved

> > with Aristo Vojdani in a research study. I tested positive by

PCR

for

> > the mycoplasma, got antibiotics, knew I had to take them a

couple

of

> > years at least and began to recover. If I had quit the

antibiotics at

> > the end of 4 months I would still be like the patients I saw

for

years

> > at the Charlotte support groups - dragging in, walking with

canes, in

> > wheel chairs, spaced out, on various brain altering drugs

trying

> > desperately to keep going from one hour to the next.

> >

> > Did Cheney et al test their patients? Do they? Well, just to

give

you

> > one clue - ask them what lab they use to test all their cfs

and

fms

> > patients for borrelia. How much do you want to bet it is

Quest or

> > LabCorp. NO WONDER THERE ARE NO DIAGNOSES. And, yes, I am

yelling. It

> > makes me sick to realize what is being done to this community

who

have

> > a chronic infection of one sort or another.

> >

> > Tony, move over, I want to join your camp.

> >

> > a

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Bob

Just try at any cost to create an ocean like mist from a nebulizer

away from her but near enough to gauge 'good or bad' reaction. I know

personally that I no longer have the allergy aspect of my ilness by

controlling what is known as quorum sensing that bacteria use to

communicate. Quorom sensing- It's like, ready boys, got the signal,

let's fire off our defences now..The slime is like a grid of wiring

that enables these signals to travel around the head and thru to the

lungs and wherever else.

Bob once you establish the crap fed upto you is just not what they

say... you'll appreciate the patients response may be extremely

normal, yet you may learn to appreciate the bacterial toxic assault

is at the heart of all this mess.Also these toxins will make you

vasoconstrict(hormones) constantly leaving you no blood volume and a

form of dehydration.The toxins will also often show up as borderlkine

haemoglobin because they can destroy a good percentage of red cells

and leave many damaged cells circulating making breathing a step

harder again..alongside the lung infection/inflammation.

have

> > > >

> > > > I think the problem we are up against is that even smart

doctors

> > like

> > > > Cheney do only routine lab tests for various infections.

In

> > the

> > > > mid 90s he and others looked at the mycoplasma issue. I know a

> > surgeon

> > > > from Knoxville who was Cheney's patient. He was one of the

few who

> > > > talked Cheney into trying a lot of antibiotics on him.

> > Unfortunately

> > > > for him and a lot of the rest of us this patient did not

recover

> > on

> > > > antibiotics.

> > > >

> > > > I was treated by Dr. Flechas at this same time. He was

> > involved

> > > > with Aristo Vojdani in a research study. I tested positive by

PCR

> > for

> > > > the mycoplasma, got antibiotics, knew I had to take them a

couple

> > of

> > > > years at least and began to recover. If I had quit the

> > antibiotics at

> > > > the end of 4 months I would still be like the patients I saw

for

> > years

> > > > at the Charlotte support groups - dragging in, walking with

> > canes, in

> > > > wheel chairs, spaced out, on various brain altering drugs

trying

> > > > desperately to keep going from one hour to the next.

> > > >

> > > > Did Cheney et al test their patients? Do they? Well, just to

give

> > you

> > > > one clue - ask them what lab they use to test all their cfs

and

> > fms

> > > > patients for borrelia. How much do you want to bet it is

Quest or

> > > > LabCorp. NO WONDER THERE ARE NO DIAGNOSES. And, yes, I am

> > yelling. It

> > > > makes me sick to realize what is being done to this community

who

> > have

> > > > a chronic infection of one sort or another.

> > > >

> > > > Tony, move over, I want to join your camp.

> > > >

> > > > a

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You won't know until you try it - the Zithromax. She can take it with

food and low dose. See what your doctor thinks.

a

>

> She is not eating any gluten. She is down to maybe a half dozen

foods

> she can tolerate, basically organic meat and greens.

>

> House is mold free, confirmed by recent tests. No carpeting, 100%

> porcelain tile, threw half our personal possessions out.

Everything

> that can be done there, has definitely been done. In addition we

live

> in the Sonoran desert.

>

> She can and does drink organic milk and yogurt.

>

> Zithro ... by itself? Maybe ... the problem is that if it works,

and

> can be tolerated for any length of time, it is going to produce die

off,

> and she has to get rid of the toxins somehow. That is what has the

> doctor stumped. Last September her autonomic nervous system went

> bonkers -- all sorts of arrhythmias, BP fluctuation, loss of body

temp

> control ... presently she can't read, can't watch a video, listen

to

> music ... it's too much input. Overloads her. This is

neurotoxicity.

> I think this has to be dealt with somehow before we can add more

toxins

> into the mix. I assume that the MCS that's developed over the past

5 or

> 6 years reflects the inability to keep bad stuff out, and to get

rid of

> it once it's in.

>

> Also as a practical matter, after 30 years of chronic illness,

starting

> with sudden-onset CFS, she is pretty much worn down to the

nubbins. Not

> much fight left. And this is going to be a hell of a fight.

>

> --Bob

>

> pjeanneus wrote:

> >

> > Bob,

> > Yes, I think there is hope. But it may be like walking a

tightrope.

> > Mino can be the worst to start with.

> >

> > If she has food sensitivities how about trying a diet with no

gluten?

> > She may not need this forever - just until she is doing better.

> >

> > Can she tolerate dairy? I would suggest finding a whole milk

yogurt

> > such as Strauss organic European style.

> >

> > Then start her on Zithromax and see if she tolerates it well. If

she

> > does she can stay on it for a couple of years. During this time

she

> > may want to try minocycline again. Once her gut heals you may be

> > surprised at what she can take that now makes her sick.

> >

> > Are you in a home with mold? Do you have any idea? She probably

must

> > get away from any source of mold at least until she begins to

recover.

> >

> > Please reply to my ideas, because if they seem like they don't fit

> > her picture I am sure someone on this list will have others!!!!

> >

> > a

> >

> > >

> > > Well now some 8 to 10 years too late we have figured out that

this

> > might

> > > be a useful band-wagon, too. The problem for my wife is that she

> > is so

> > > desperately ill with MCS on top of CFS, that she is reactive to

> > almost

> > > everything. For example, just 50 mg of mino causes her *violent*

> > > stomach pain that takes weeks to blow over. We have a doctor who

> > wants

> > > to treat her for Lyme and myco, but feels like his hands are

tied

> > > because virtually everything he gives her makes her ill in other

> > ways.

> > > Even healthy people struggle with die-off toxins; my wife can

> > scarcely

> > > detox at all.

> > >

> > > Anyone else have this experience where their detox pathways are

> > shot, no

> > > elbow room for anything? Anyone know a way out?

> > >

> > > --Bob

> > >

> > > pjeanneus wrote:

> > > >

> > > > I think the problem we are up against is that even smart

doctors

> > like

> > > > Cheney do only routine lab tests for various infections.

In

> > the

> > > > mid 90s he and others looked at the mycoplasma issue. I know a

> > surgeon

> > > > from Knoxville who was Cheney's patient. He was one of the

few who

> > > > talked Cheney into trying a lot of antibiotics on him.

> > Unfortunately

> > > > for him and a lot of the rest of us this patient did not

recover

> > on

> > > > antibiotics.

> > > >

> > > > I was treated by Dr. Flechas at this same time. He was

> > involved

> > > > with Aristo Vojdani in a research study. I tested positive by

PCR

> > for

> > > > the mycoplasma, got antibiotics, knew I had to take them a

couple

> > of

> > > > years at least and began to recover. If I had quit the

> > antibiotics at

> > > > the end of 4 months I would still be like the patients I saw

for

> > years

> > > > at the Charlotte support groups - dragging in, walking with

> > canes, in

> > > > wheel chairs, spaced out, on various brain altering drugs

trying

> > > > desperately to keep going from one hour to the next.

> > > >

> > > > Did Cheney et al test their patients? Do they? Well, just to

give

> > you

> > > > one clue - ask them what lab they use to test all their cfs

and

> > fms

> > > > patients for borrelia. How much do you want to bet it is

Quest or

> > > > LabCorp. NO WONDER THERE ARE NO DIAGNOSES. And, yes, I am

> > yelling. It

> > > > makes me sick to realize what is being done to this community

who

> > have

> > > > a chronic infection of one sort or another.

> > > >

> > > > Tony, move over, I want to join your camp.

> > > >

> > > > a

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

If you back channel me I will give you the name of a

Dr. who has helped me with these symptoms.

Marie

--- Bob Grommes <bob@...> wrote:

> Well now some 8 to 10 years too late we have figured

> out that this might

> be a useful band-wagon, too. The problem for my

> wife is that she is so

> desperately ill with MCS on top of CFS, that she is

> reactive to almost

> everything. For example, just 50 mg of mino causes

> her *violent*

> stomach pain that takes weeks to blow over. We have

> a doctor who wants

> to treat her for Lyme and myco, but feels like his

> hands are tied

> because virtually everything he gives her makes her

> ill in other ways.

> Even healthy people struggle with die-off toxins; my

> wife can scarcely

> detox at all.

>

> Anyone else have this experience where their detox

> pathways are shot, no

> elbow room for anything? Anyone know a way out?

>

> --Bob

>

> pjeanneus wrote:

> >

> > I think the problem we are up against is that even

> smart doctors like

> > Cheney do only routine lab tests for various

> infections. In the

> > mid 90s he and others looked at the mycoplasma

> issue. I know a surgeon

> > from Knoxville who was Cheney's patient. He was

> one of the few who

> > talked Cheney into trying a lot of antibiotics on

> him. Unfortunately

> > for him and a lot of the rest of us this patient

> did not recover on

> > antibiotics.

> >

> > I was treated by Dr. Flechas at this same

> time. He was involved

> > with Aristo Vojdani in a research study. I tested

> positive by PCR for

> > the mycoplasma, got antibiotics, knew I had to

> take them a couple of

> > years at least and began to recover. If I had quit

> the antibiotics at

> > the end of 4 months I would still be like the

> patients I saw for years

> > at the Charlotte support groups - dragging in,

> walking with canes, in

> > wheel chairs, spaced out, on various brain

> altering drugs trying

> > desperately to keep going from one hour to the

> next.

> >

> > Did Cheney et al test their patients? Do they?

> Well, just to give you

> > one clue - ask them what lab they use to test all

> their cfs and fms

> > patients for borrelia. How much do you want to bet

> it is Quest or

> > LabCorp. NO WONDER THERE ARE NO DIAGNOSES. And,

> yes, I am yelling. It

> > makes me sick to realize what is being done to

> this community who have

> > a chronic infection of one sort or another.

> >

> > Tony, move over, I want to join your camp.

> >

> > a

> >

> >

>

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