osteomyelitis

[Guest guest]

I was interested in the post about osteomyelitis because I can feel

an ache in my leg bone, which makes me think that borrelia have taken

up residence in the bone marrow. They've found it in dog leg bones,

why not people?

Wonder what ghastly sort of test it would take to find out--giant

needle stuck in the bone?

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Pain in the shins is common in LD. Maybe after some IV AB's it will go away.

Eileen

[Guest guest]

Hi Lou,

For what it's worth, I suffer from severe bone pain when I am herxing, I

call it my cancer pain for lack of a better word. I don't know what cancer

feels like, but this is how I imagine it would be. It is strange how these

severe pains move around my body, sometimes the bone pain is in my feet, or

my wrist, or my lower back. And sometimes it is both legs, aching terribly.

Since it only occurs this bad when I am herxing I attribute it to the die

off toxins somehow settling in that one spot. I take Vioxx 25mg once daily

& Oxycontin 20mg 3 x day yet when I am herxing, nothing helps this bone

pain.

I think x-rays can determine if you have osteomyelitis, or an MRI.

Wishing you the best, whatever they call your pain,

Marta

From: overman74@... <overman74@...>

>I was interested in the post about osteomyelitis because I can feel

>an ache in my leg bone, which makes me think that borrelia have taken

>up residence in the bone marrow. They've found it in dog leg bones,

>why not people?

>

>Wonder what ghastly sort of test it would take to find out--giant

>needle stuck in the bone?

>

[Guest guest]

IT'S CALLED A BONE MARROW BIOPSY....BMB...GOT ONE TO SEE IF I HAVE BABESIA

AND EHRILOISOS...IGENEX IS DOING ON A RESERCH BASIS...had it done may 22

....no results yet...they put 'reserch' on the back burner..way far back

burner...

BTW...the BMB was done at base of my spine...from a skilled

immunlogist..it was'nt all that bad... it hurt some ...i sweated....cherlyme

In a message dated 7/12/00 7:53:13 AM, overman74@... writes:

<<Wonder what ghastly sort of test it would take to find out--giant

needle stuck in the bone?

>>

[Guest guest]

FYI....there is an osteomyelitis egroups....they all have hip, ankle , knee,

jaw ,skull, face...osteomyelitis/osteonecrosis.. i have that in my jaw

bones..two oral surgeies...now i wonder if it's all over...my bone PAIN has

gone from a 10 to 5 since on ABX.i did get 2 people interested in that

group..all there problems might come from lyme disease....they tested

positive. The other were not 'interested' in borellia causing

osteomyelits/osteonecrosis

In a message dated 7/12/00 7:53:13 AM, overman74@... writes:

<<I was interested in the post about osteomyelitis because I can feel

an ache in my leg bone, which makes me think that borrelia have taken

up residence in the bone marrow. They've found it in dog leg bones,

why not people?

>>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Margaret.

Where were you using the electrodes when the thumb pain stopped? On your

sinus? wrist? thumb?

I have had some good results using it for a jambed shoulder and other joint

and muscle pain, using the electrodes on both sides of the area.

Also, you can get some TENS pads on the internet or home hospital supply

companies. They are about 2x2 inches and are self sticking.

Dick

Osteomyelitis

> Hi everyone,

> I would like to tell you of a bonus I have received while using the

> godzilla.

> About 14 years ago I was diagnosed with osteomyelitis in my thumb, after

> an accident. The result was have the bone removed, or live with the

> pain. I chose to live with it. Since using the godzilla for about 6

> weeks now, for the first time in all these years I am pain free. What a

> bonus!!

> Very best wishes,

> Margaret.

>

>

>

> The information on this group is not intended as medical advice. Most

group members are NOT doctors or health authorities. Please do not request

medical advice, lest anyone get into trouble out of human compassion. There

are huge fines and issues currently involved with unlicensed medical advice.

The group is only here to share experiences according to the theme of the

group, namely testing if electrical stimulus might inactivate microbes, as

it seems to have done in the Einstein Medical College labs. We are

interested in your results, but cannot say anything about repeatability, or

whether this might have medical benefits. Thanks, for your understanding,

good luck researching. --bG

>

[Guest guest]

Many thanks, Margaret! here's quick primer on it:

" Osteomyelitis is an acute or chronic bone infection, usually caused

by bacteria.

Causes, incidence, and risk factors.

The infection that causes osteomyelitis often is in another part of

the body and spreads to the bone via the blood. Affected bone may

have been predisposed to infection because of recent trauma.

In children, the long bones are usually affected. In adults, the

vertebrae and the pelvis are most commonly affected. Bone infection

can be caused by bacteria or by fungus. When the bone is infected,

pus is produced within the bone, which may result in an abscess. The

abscess then deprives the bone of its blood supply.

Chronic osteomyelitis results when bone tissue dies as a result of

the lost blood supply. Chronic infection can persist intermittently

for years.

Risk factors are recent trauma, diabetes, hemodialysis, and

intravenous drug abuse. People who have had their spleen removed are

also at higher risk for osteomyelitis. "

> Hi everyone,

> I would like to tell you of a bonus I have received while using

the

> godzilla.

> About 14 years ago I was diagnosed with osteomyelitis in my thumb,

after

> an accident. The result was have the bone removed, or live with

the

> pain. I chose to live with it. Since using the godzilla for about

6

> weeks now, for the first time in all these years I am pain free.

What a

> bonus!!

> Very best wishes,

> Margaret.

[Guest guest]

clip from the article below. It notes that a trauma occurs (shock

to vertebrae, like object falling on one's head) infection from a

decaying tooth, cut, bacteria then is carried by blood into the bone

and it infects the bone.

In adults the vertebrae are more likely to become infected. Jean's

friend (cousin?) seems to be presenting some of these attributes

found in Osteomyelitis, with her neck injury pain, too.

bG

> In adults, the vertebrae and the pelvis are most commonly

affected. Chronic infection can persist intermittently

> for years.

>

> Risk factors are recent trauma, diabetes, hemodialysis, and

> intravenous drug abuse.

[Guest guest]

Dick Rochon wrote:

>Hi, Margaret.

>

>Where were you using the electrodes when the thumb pain stopped? On your

>sinus? wrist? thumb?

>

>I have had some good results using it for a jambed shoulder and other joint

>and muscle pain, using the electrodes on both sides of the area.

>

>Also, you can get some TENS pads on the internet or home hospital supply

>companies. They are about 2x2 inches and are self sticking.

>

>Dick

>

>

Hi Dick,

I was using the electrodes on my wrist, I didn't notice any change

until I stopped, and at once noticed the pain had reduced. Since then,

the pain has become less and less, and now I am only getting an ache now

and then. ( I accidentally chopped off part of my thumb).

I did get a set of tens pads from V, I would like to use them on my

lymph nodes. Thank you for your help

Best wishes to all,

Margaret.

[Guest guest]

I'm getting very interested in osteomyelitis. It seems to be rather

under-studied. Heres what I'm picking up so far, much of which I'm

sure is known to Penny.

Osteomyelitis has acute and chronic forms. I am concerned only with

the chronic. About 80% of cases are caused by S aureus, but theres

also no shortage of mycobacterial, etc etc etc cases. The bacteria

can be introduced by injury, but microbes can also reach the bone via

the blood. Treatment is traditionally debridement (removal of

necrotic bone) plus long-term antibacterial therapy. Many total

treatment failures occur and amputation is sometimes the result.

Also, successful cases can sometimes reactivate after years.

This diagram of bone tissue structure is pretty unintelligable to me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Illu_compact_spongy_bone.jpg

....but it seems like the osteoblasts and osteoclasts surround

vasculature, and are in turn surrounded by the noncellular hard bone

material. The classic thinking about osteomyeltis is, that bone is

hard, and hence has a fixed volume. Thus, when bone becomes inflamed

(edematous with fluid), the space taken up by the edema fluid has to

be relinquished by the blood vessels, which constrict in order to do

so. As a result, the blood flow is said to be reduced under edematous

circumstances, and this may impair abx penetration, as well as

penetration of blood-borne immune elements. This is generally cited

as a major cause of treatment failure, altho physiological resistance

due to slow growth rate is also well-recognized as a probable major

contributer.

I'm not certain how much I believe this stuff about poor antibiotic

penetration. If theres little blood flow to a given site, its true

that penetration of a drug should be slowed. But, blood is a two-way

street. Diffusion of drugs from tissue back into the blood also takes

place, and when blood flow is reduced, this process should should

also be slowed. Thus, tissue with little blood supply should

eventually build up to about the same concentration found in the

blood - provided that the drug is present long enough in the blood,

and the drug is not extensively consumed/destroyed/metabolized in

tissue as it comes in.

So I've been looking at measurements of abx penetration into

inflamed/necrotic bone. To get relevant results, the bone examined

must be inflamed, for the reasons discussed above. Also, its good if

the subject has been taking the drug for a while, since distribution

into the inflamed bone may be very tardy compared to other tissues.

Finally, its important that the various types of bone tissues be

examined separately. I'd be interested in any refs anyone may find on

this subject.

VANCOMYCIN: can fail to penetrate in some cases. These patients had

been on it for 48 hours but some had undetectable concentrations in

infected bone: http://aac.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/32/9/1320

ENOXACIN: looks like this one gets in OK, but may not reach the

MIC/MBC for S aureus in some cases. Cortical bone oncentration in

osteomyelitis patients was 40% of the simultaneous serum

concentration, on *average* - this is in equally good penetration as

what was found in osteoarthritis patients. Unfortunately the

concentration *range* for osteomyelitis patients is not given;

however the range for the entire set of subjects including

osteoarthritis patients had a minimum of 0.4 ug/mL which should still

give a pretty good penetration percentage. Osteomyelitic cancellous

bone was not studied, but in the osteoarthritis patients it was

higher than in cortical bone.

http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=172291 & blobtype=pdf

MIC/MBC: http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?

artid=284183 & blobtype=pdf

So, so far its two points for inadequate penetration, zip for

adequate. I've browsed some other ones out there last week, and

eventually I will go thru em and add em to this thread. I've had

enough fun for right now.

The final caveat here is that there might be microenvironments where

the drugs dont penetrate, where the bacteria thrive. For instance, a

particular bone channel that is more edematous and less blood-

supplied than its neighboring channels. This might not be noted by

these abx assays, as the material, including any microenvironments,

would be homogenized prior to the abx assay.

Necrotic, anoxic mircofoci exist in pulmonary tuberculosis, but

Mitchison reports that these have been found to achieve adequate drug

concentrations.

[Guest guest]

, it's awesome that you're looking into chronic osteomyelitis. I think the more we understand what's going on with such a difficult to treat infection the more we'll understand in general. This has certainly been my experience regarding my own health. You're so right in saying that many bugs can cause osteomyelitis, but staph makes up the majority of the disease. This is why I get so frustrated that our community just ignores the destructive nature of these common bugs and all the research done by the docs who treat this disorder on a daily basis. We could learn so much from them. Dr. Gleuck, the coagulation expert, says that approximately 80% of people with chronic osteomyelitis have coagulation disorders. Almost every osteomyelitis patient I know who has had their blood tested for clotting disorders has tested positive. I think it would be awesome if more PWC would get their blood tested and

see if they also test positive. There's already so much speculation that we do suffer from hypercoagulation. In my experience, people seem to most often develop osteomyelitis and osteonecrosis at bone trauma sites. Dentistry can obviously cause a lot of bone trauma (but they won't admit it). But the sinuses develop osteomyelitis as well, probably due to constant infection and inflammation. The forms that get the most attention, naturally, are hip, knee and foot infections, thanks to orthopedic and infectious disease docs who see it all the time. It's especially common in diabetics (so are amputations). You probably noticed in your research that many of the studies are done on children with osteomyelitis, but I never see any explanation for why they have it. The only thing I can think is that perhaps they develop it after breaking a bone, or perhaps after bone trauma suffered during

childbirth. I've always found it interesting that many, many FMS/CFS patients say that they had a sudden onset of their illness after suffering from whiplash or an accident. Also strange how athletes will suddenly develop it. Whiplash, bone trauma and broken bones would be the perfect opportunity for organisms to enter the bone and settle in, tipping the scales against the immune system and creating chronic illness symptoms. penny <usenethod@...> wrote: I'm getting very interested in osteomyelitis. It seems to be rather under-studied. Heres what I'm picking up so far, much of which I'm sure is known to Penny.Osteomyelitis has acute and chronic forms. I am concerned only with the chronic. About 80% of cases are caused by S aureus, but theres also no shortage of mycobacterial, etc etc etc cases. The bacteria can be introduced by injury, but microbes can also reach the bone via the blood. Treatment is traditionally debridement (removal of necrotic bone) plus long-term antibacterial therapy. Many total treatment failures occur and amputation is sometimes the result. Also, successful cases can sometimes reactivate after years.This diagram of bone tissue structure is pretty unintelligable to me:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Illu_compact_spongy_bone.jpg...but it seems like the osteoblasts and osteoclasts surround vasculature, and are in turn surrounded by the noncellular hard bone material. The classic thinking about osteomyeltis is, that bone is hard, and hence has a fixed volume. Thus, when bone becomes inflamed (edematous with fluid), the space taken up by the edema fluid has to be relinquished by the blood vessels, which constrict in order to do so. As a result, the blood flow is said to be reduced under edematous circumstances, and this may impair abx penetration, as well as penetration of blood-borne immune elements. This is generally cited as a major cause of treatment failure, altho physiological resistance due to slow growth rate is also well-recognized as a probable major contributer.I'm not

certain how much I believe this stuff about poor antibiotic penetration. If theres little blood flow to a given site, its true that penetration of a drug should be slowed. But, blood is a two-way street. Diffusion of drugs from tissue back into the blood also takes place, and when blood flow is reduced, this process should should also be slowed. Thus, tissue with little blood supply should eventually build up to about the same concentration found in the blood - provided that the drug is present long enough in the blood, and the drug is not extensively consumed/destroyed/metabolized in tissue as it comes in. So I've been looking at measurements of abx penetration into inflamed/necrotic bone. To get relevant results, the bone examined must be inflamed, for the reasons discussed above. Also, its good if the subject has been taking the drug for a while, since distribution into the inflamed bone may be very tardy

compared to other tissues. Finally, its important that the various types of bone tissues be examined separately. I'd be interested in any refs anyone may find on this subject.VANCOMYCIN: can fail to penetrate in some cases. These patients had been on it for 48 hours but some had undetectable concentrations in infected bone: http://aac.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/32/9/1320ENOXACIN: looks like this one gets in OK, but may not reach the MIC/MBC for S aureus in some cases. Cortical bone oncentration in osteomyelitis patients was 40% of the simultaneous serum concentration, on *average* - this is in equally good penetration as what was found in osteoarthritis patients. Unfortunately the concentration *range* for osteomyelitis patients is not given; however the range for the entire set of subjects including osteoarthritis patients had a

minimum of 0.4 ug/mL which should still give a pretty good penetration percentage. Osteomyelitic cancellous bone was not studied, but in the osteoarthritis patients it was higher than in cortical bone. http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=172291 & blobtype=pdfMIC/MBC: http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=284183 & blobtype=pdfSo, so far its two points for inadequate penetration, zip for adequate. I've browsed some other ones out there last week, and eventually I will go thru em and add em to this thread. I've had enough fun for right now.The final caveat here is that there might be microenvironments where the drugs dont penetrate, where the bacteria thrive. For instance, a particular bone

channel that is more edematous and less blood-supplied than its neighboring channels. This might not be noted by these abx assays, as the material, including any microenvironments, would be homogenized prior to the abx assay. Necrotic, anoxic mircofoci exist in pulmonary tuberculosis, but Mitchison reports that these have been found to achieve adequate drug concentrations.