Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 I have CFS and a bunch of the usual things that go with with. Terrible sinusitis...I'm taking an antibiotic for a " smoldering " sinus infection as my doc puts it. I go through 2 rounds of antibiotics twice a year it seems. My question is this...i feel better after 2 weeks on this antibiotic: cefuroxime axet. Is it just the sinus infection going away? Or could there be other systemic infections that are getting killed off, too? ( Thanks. Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 That antibiotic would affect borrelia. Have you been tested for Lyme disease? a Carnes > > I have CFS and a bunch of the usual things that go with with. Terrible > sinusitis...I'm taking an antibiotic for a " smoldering " sinus infection > as my doc puts it. I go through 2 rounds of antibiotics twice a year it > seems. > > My question is this...i feel better after 2 weeks on this antibiotic: > cefuroxime axet. Is it just the sinus infection going away? Or could > there be other systemic infections that are getting killed off, too? ( > > Thanks. > > Ann > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Basically, yes. Lots of people think that the disease state loosely and/or strictly understood as CFS, are usually due to a systemic bacterial infection (or a mixed infection state). Some would even say they have published near-proof to that effect applying to single human cases (Tarello - Micrococcus spp) or large random samples (Mattman//Hulinska - Borrelia burgdorferi). But these demonstrations havent been widely reproduced or won over the scientific community so far. Theres also tons of other little indirect clues - eg the very well- documented effects of strong antibiotic combos on some other diseases like Crohns and undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy (see a post I made yesterday or so for abstracts). These diseases are not CFS but they involve some of the same systemic symptoms. So I cant say absolutely yes, but can give a very strong yes as my personal opinion. Various cases of CFS could have many causes, which in my opinion would usually involve immune activation, and I think that immune activation could be primarily caused by bacteria in many cases. To see an example of a bacterial infection that is very tough to treat, and unresponsive to combination antibiotics in up to 2/3 of cases, see M avium infection, especially HIV-negative cases. This is a known bacterial infection, whose symptoms may well be less responsive to antibiotics than CFS is. This powerfully illustrates that just because a given disease isnt rapidly resolvable by antibiotics, doesnt mean that disease is not caused by bacterial infection. Personally, while I wasnt sick for very long, I have had a slow but very dramatic recovery since starting combination antibiotics - so I feel very little doubt about what I am dealing with in my case. <greenline@...> wrote: > > I have CFS and a bunch of the usual things that go with with. Terrible > sinusitis...I'm taking an antibiotic for a " smoldering " sinus infection > as my doc puts it. I go through 2 rounds of antibiotics twice a year it > seems. > > My question is this...i feel better after 2 weeks on this antibiotic: > cefuroxime axet. Is it just the sinus infection going away? Or could > there be other systemic infections that are getting killed off, too? ( > > Thanks. > > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 The abx could most definitely be knocking down bacterial infections in other parts of your body. If you've had a long-term recurring infection in your sinuses, I would be very surprised if you didn't also have colinizations of the same bacteria elsewhere. When, like you, my so called "CFS" symptoms responded very positiviely to antibiotic therapy, I was not only very surprised, but I knew that we really weren't in Kansas anymore. The reason people don't get over these recurring infections is because the docs are missing the bigger picture. Sinus docs just look at sinuses & nowhere beyond. It's like the old Indian legend about the blind men and the elephant. When asked to describe what an elephant is, the blind man touching the tail says an elephant is a rope. The man who touches the leg, says an elephant is a tree. The man who touches the trunk says an elephant is a snake. Some time ago docs decided that recurring sinus infections were caused not by bacteria, but by structural abnormalities. The solution? Surgery. So since then, there hasn't been much investigation going into the actual infections or what larger impact these infections might have on people's overall health. Kind of amazing, really. Even dentists, who can barely call themselves doctors, now know that bacteria from the mouth can cause serious heart and other diseases. How can ENTs, who know how lousy people feel with sinus infections, not recognize the serious havoc that long standing sinus infections must be having on the rest of the body? penny abaeg2001 <greenline@...> wrote: I have CFS and a bunch of the usual things that go with with. Terrible sinusitis...I'm taking an antibiotic for a "smoldering" sinus infection as my doc puts it. I go through 2 rounds of antibiotics twice a year it seems.My question is this...i feel better after 2 weeks on this antibiotic: cefuroxime axet. Is it just the sinus infection going away? Or could there be other systemic infections that are getting killed off, too? (Thanks.Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2006 Report Share Posted July 12, 2006 Yes , your post reflects your experience 's ,But many would say CFS is yeast infection ,5,000 in the UK alone belong to a group dedicated to fight the infection ...Do you think these people are deluded? You surly don't think the explosive growth of Lyme , autism , CFS, autoimmune, yeast infections are coincidental ..Seems to me people cherry pick information ..it's clear that we are looking at an overall problem with immunity and that yeast is central to the problem ... -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Sent: 12 July 2006 20:50infections Subject: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Basically, yes. Lots of people think that the disease state loosely and/or strictly understood as CFS, are usually due to a systemic bacterial infection (or a mixed infection state). Some would even say they have published near-proof to that effect applying to single human cases (Tarello - Micrococcus spp) or large random samples (Mattman//Hulinska - Borrelia burgdorferi). But these demonstrations havent been widely reproduced or won over the scientific community so far.Theres also tons of other little indirect clues - eg the very well-documented effects of strong antibiotic combos on some other diseases like Crohns and undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy (see a post I made yesterday or so for abstracts). These diseases are not CFS but they involve some of the same systemic symptoms.So I cant say absolutely yes, but can give a very strong yes as my personal opinion. Various cases of CFS could have many causes, which in my opinion would usually involve immune activation, and I think that immune activation could be primarily caused by bacteria in many cases. To see an example of a bacterial infection that is very tough to treat, and unresponsive to combination antibiotics in up to 2/3 of cases, see M avium infection, especially HIV-negative cases. This is a known bacterial infection, whose symptoms may well be less responsive to antibiotics than CFS is. This powerfully illustrates that just because a given disease isnt rapidly resolvable by antibiotics, doesnt mean that disease is not caused by bacterial infection.Personally, while I wasnt sick for very long, I have had a slow but very dramatic recovery since starting combination antibiotics - so I feel very little doubt about what I am dealing with in my case.<greenline@...> wrote:>> I have CFS and a bunch of the usual things that go with with. Terrible > sinusitis...I'm taking an antibiotic for a "smoldering" sinus infection > as my doc puts it. I go through 2 rounds of antibiotics twice a year it > seems.> > My question is this...i feel better after 2 weeks on this antibiotic: > cefuroxime axet. Is it just the sinus infection going away? Or could > there be other systemic infections that are getting killed off, too? (> > Thanks.> > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 > Yes , your post reflects your experience 's True, but I didnt make any universal statements about the cause of CFS, just said that many cases of CFS could be (and probably are IMO) fundamentally due to bacteria. One could bring up lots of other findings, such as the antiviral trials I summarized here: http://www.cpnhelp.org/?q=preparing_for_pulse_1 Do you know if Cranton or anyone ever tried to test the GI candida overgrowth model by some sort of direct examination of candidal populations in the lumen/mucous/mucosa? Seems like it should be a fairly straightforward determination, if I'm not overlooking something. Or do you favor more of a systemic candidiasis model? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Why is it "clear" we're looking at an immunity problem? How long have bacteria been around? And humans? Which do you think has a better chance of survival in the face of catastrophy? My money's on bacteria over even the healthiest human immune system. Especially when you've got a medical establishment that's been doing a good job of creating ever more resistant bugs. How's an immune system supposed to keep up with that? penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: Yes , your post reflects your experience 's ,But many would say CFS is yeast infection ,5,000 in the UK alone belong to a group dedicated to fight the infection ...Do you think these people are deluded? You surly don't think the explosive growth of Lyme , autism , CFS, autoimmune, yeast infections are coincidental ..Seems to me people cherry pick information ..it's clear that we are looking at an overall problem with immunity and that yeast is central to the problem ... -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Sent: 12 July 2006 20:50infections Subject: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Basically, yes. Lots of people think that the disease state loosely and/or strictly understood as CFS, are usually due to a systemic bacterial infection (or a mixed infection state). Some would even say they have published near-proof to that effect applying to single human cases (Tarello - Micrococcus spp) or large random samples (Mattman//Hulinska - Borrelia burgdorferi). But these demonstrations havent been widely reproduced or won over the scientific community so far.Theres also tons of other little indirect clues - eg the very well-documented effects of strong antibiotic combos on some other diseases like Crohns and undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy (see a post I made yesterday or so for abstracts). These diseases are not CFS but they involve some of the same systemic symptoms.So I cant say absolutely yes, but can give a very strong yes as my personal opinion. Various cases of CFS could have many causes, which in my opinion would usually involve immune activation, and I think that immune activation could be primarily caused by bacteria in many cases. To see an example of a bacterial infection that is very tough to treat, and unresponsive to combination antibiotics in up to 2/3 of cases, see M avium infection, especially HIV-negative cases. This is a known bacterial infection, whose symptoms may well be less responsive to antibiotics than CFS is. This powerfully illustrates that just because a given disease isnt rapidly resolvable by antibiotics, doesnt mean that disease is not caused by bacterial infection.Personally, while I wasnt sick for very long, I have had a slow but very dramatic recovery since starting combination antibiotics - so I feel very little doubt about what I am dealing with in my case.<greenline@...> wrote:>> I have CFS and a bunch of the usual things that go with with. Terrible > sinusitis...I'm taking an antibiotic for a "smoldering" sinus infection > as my doc puts it. I go through 2 rounds of antibiotics twice a year it > seems.> > My question is this...i feel better after 2 weeks on this antibiotic: > cefuroxime axet. Is it just the sinus infection going away? Or could > there be other systemic infections that are getting killed off, too? (> > Thanks.> > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 I don't think any of the so called syndromes are 'strictly' one thing or another. I think yeast and bacteria (infections) are probably present together. They're ' buddies ' and not in a good way. The intestinal tract isn't supposed to let toxins into the system- but we know it can become permeable and lets them thru. If the guts screwed up, so goes immunity- and visa versa. Barb > > > > I have CFS and a bunch of the usual things that go with with. > Terrible > > sinusitis...I'm taking an antibiotic for a " smoldering " sinus > infection > > as my doc puts it. I go through 2 rounds of antibiotics twice a year > it > > seems. > > > > My question is this...i feel better after 2 weeks on this antibiotic: > > cefuroxime axet. Is it just the sinus infection going away? Or could > > there be other systemic infections that are getting killed off, too? ( > > > > Thanks. > > > > Ann > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 07/07/2006 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 penny really nailed it with the biofilm and the antibiotic failures. I'm sure the biofilm hides the bacteria from the immune system just as easily. There's a whole lot of people that focus on the slime 9BIOFILM) and there fibromyalgia ilness.THEY AVOID ALL FOODS THAT CREATE THE BIOFILM FORMATIONS AND FIND THEY FUNCTION NICELY.i THINK THE CANDIDA APPROACH SOMEWHAT SUITS THIS IMO. > > > > I have CFS and a bunch of the usual things that go with with. > Terrible > > sinusitis...I'm taking an antibiotic for a " smoldering " sinus > infection > > as my doc puts it. I go through 2 rounds of antibiotics twice a year > it > > seems. > > > > My question is this...i feel better after 2 weeks on this antibiotic: > > cefuroxime axet. Is it just the sinus infection going away? Or could > > there be other systemic infections that are getting killed off, too? ( > > > > Thanks. > > > > Ann > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 I wish you would read my site ..Bacteria rule ,and have done for a very long time 80% of the biomass of the planet is bacteria..that's why we need them ,that's why our relationship with microbes is as old as us ,as the post below it drives our immunity...and that's why taking antibiotics that greatly perturbs the balance of our gut flora and hence our immunity ..Getting back that balance is central to any cure .. ----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 00:40infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Why is it "clear" we're looking at an immunity problem? How long have bacteria been around? And humans? Which do you think has a better chance of survival in the face of catastrophy? My money's on bacteria over even the healthiest human immune system. Especially when you've got a medical establishment that's been doing a good job of creating ever more resistant bugs. How's an immune system supposed to keep up with that? penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: Yes , your post reflects your experience 's ,But many would say CFS is yeast infection ,5,000 in the UK alone belong to a group dedicated to fight th e infection ...Do you think these people are deluded? You surly don't think the explosive growth of Lyme , autism , CFS, autoimmune, yeast infections are coincidental ..Seems to me people cherry pick information ..it's clear that we are looking at an overall problem with immunity and that yeast is central to the problem ... -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Sent: 12 July 2006 20:50infections Subject: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Basically, yes. Lots of people think that the disease state loosely and/or strictly understood as CFS, are usually due to a systemic bacterial infection (or a mixed infection state). Some would even say they have published near-proof to that effect applying to single human cases (Tarello - Micrococcus spp) or large random samples (Mattman//Hulinska - Borrelia burgdorferi). But these demonstrations havent been widely reproduced or won over the scientific community so far.Theres also tons of other little indirect clues - eg the very well-documented effects of strong antibiotic combos on some other diseases like Crohns and undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy (see a post I made yesterday or so for abstracts). These diseases are not CFS but they involve some of the same systemic symptoms.So I cant say absolutely yes, but can give a very strong yes as my personal opinion. Various cases of CFS could have many causes, which in my opinion would usually involve immune activation, and I think that immune activation could be primarily caused by bacteria in many cases. To see an example of a bacterial infection that is very tough to treat, and unresponsive to combination antibiotics in up to 2/3 of cases, see M avium infection, especially HIV-negative cases. This is a known bacterial infection, whose symptoms may well be less responsive to antibiotics than CFS is. This powerfully illustrates that just because a given disease isnt rapidly resolvable by antibiotics, doesnt mean that disease is not caused by bacterial infection.Personally, while I wasnt sick for very long, I have had a slow but very dramatic recovery since starting combination antibiotics - so I feel very little doubt about what I am dealing with in my case.<greenline@...> wrote:>> I have CFS and a bunch of the usual things that go with with. Terrible > sinusitis...I'm taking an antibiotic for a "smoldering" sinus infection > as my doc puts it. I go through 2 rounds of antibiotics twice a year it > seems.> > My question is this...i feel better after 2 weeks on this antibiotic: > cefuroxime axet. Is it just the sinus infection going away? Or could > there be other systemic infections that are getting killed off, too? (> > Thanks.> > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 , I've tried to read your site. I get a bit lost there, sorry. I agree that flora balance is very important, but I blame the invading bacteria for throwing off the balance in the first place, not my own immune system. We are not built to be impervious to bacteria, no matter how strongly our immune systems are designed. I also agree that abx can disturb the flora balance. If my symptoms got worse with a particular abx rather than better, well naturally, I'd stop taking them (and I sometimes do). But my symptoms are most often relieved with the correct abx, which indicates to me that my flora balance has already been compromised by the bacteria, and reducing the bad bacterial load improves the balance, as evidenced by my improved health. Like you, I'd prefer to target specific bugs, and not use broad spectrum killing. Something like phage therapy would be ideal. Like smart bombing, able to zoom in on the specific target we want to take out while leaving everything else standing. I hope that becomes a reality soon. I also hope docs start testing us to correctly identify which organisms are overtaking us. Otherwise, it's just more shooting in the dark. penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: I wish you would read my site ..Bacteria rule ,and have done for a very long time 80% of the biomass of the planet is bacteria..that's why we need them ,that's why our relationship with microbes is as old as us ,as the post below it drives our immunity...and that's why taking antibiotics that greatly perturbs the balance of our gut flora and hence our immunity ..Getting back that balance is central to any cure .. ----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 00:40infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Why is it "clear" we're looking at an immunity problem? How long have bacteria been around? And humans? Which do you think has a better chance of survival in the face of catastrophy? My money's on bacteria over even the healthiest human immune system. Especially when you've got a medical establishment that's been doing a good job of creating ever more resistant bugs. How's an immune system supposed to keep up with that? penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: Yes , your post reflects your experience 's ,But many would say CFS is yeast infection ,5,000 in the UK alone belong to a group dedicated to fight th e infection ...Do you think these people are deluded? You surly don't think the explosive growth of Lyme , autism , CFS, autoimmune, yeast infections are coincidental ..Seems to me people cherry pick information ..it's clear that we are looking at an overall problem with immunity and that yeast is central to the problem ... -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Sent: 12 July 2006 20:50infections Subject: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Basically, yes. Lots of people think that the disease state loosely and/or strictly understood as CFS, are usually due to a systemic bacterial infection (or a mixed infection state). Some would even say they have published near-proof to that effect applying to single human cases (Tarello - Micrococcus spp) or large random samples (Mattman//Hulinska - Borrelia burgdorferi). But these demonstrations havent been widely reproduced or won over the scientific community so far.Theres also tons of other little indirect clues - eg the very well-documented effects of strong antibiotic combos on some other diseases like Crohns and undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy (see a post I made yesterday or so for abstracts). These diseases are not CFS but they involve some of the same systemic symptoms.So I cant say absolutely yes, but can give a very strong yes as my personal opinion. Various cases of CFS could have many causes, which in my opinion would usually involve immune activation, and I think that immune activation could be primarily caused by bacteria in many cases. To see an example of a bacterial infection that is very tough to treat, and unresponsive to combination antibiotics in up to 2/3 of cases, see M avium infection, especially HIV-negative cases. This is a known bacterial infection, whose symptoms may well be less responsive to antibiotics than CFS is. This powerfully illustrates that just because a given disease isnt rapidly resolvable by antibiotics, doesnt mean that disease is not caused by bacterial infection.Personally, while I wasnt sick for very long, I have had a slow but very dramatic recovery since starting combination antibiotics - so I feel very little doubt about what I am dealing with in my case.<greenline@...> wrote:>> I have CFS and a bunch of the usual things that go with with. Terrible > sinusitis...I'm taking an antibiotic for a "smoldering" sinus infection > as my doc puts it. I go through 2 rounds of antibiotics twice a year it > seems.> > My question is this...i feel better after 2 weeks on this antibiotic: > cefuroxime axet. Is it just the sinus infection going away? Or could > there be other systemic infections that are getting killed off, too? (> > Thanks.> > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 While this might work for some reason... most bacteria can create the polysaccharide biofilms from the nutrients present in the body. Bacteria should not have any nutritional/metabolic problem coming up with biofilm slime, no matter what you eat. > penny > really nailed it with the biofilm and the antibiotic failures. > I'm sure the biofilm hides the bacteria from the immune system just > as easily. > There's a whole lot of people that focus on the slime 9BIOFILM) > and there fibromyalgia ilness.THEY AVOID ALL FOODS THAT CREATE THE > BIOFILM FORMATIONS AND FIND THEY FUNCTION NICELY.i THINK THE CANDIDA > APPROACH SOMEWHAT SUITS THIS IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Well thanks for the feedback on my site , I am surprised you get lost , but there it is , if I get many more who report the same I'll need to revamp ...We are built to be impervious to bacteria ..that's the point, we aren't anymore hence the increased explosive growth of many infection based conditions ...Antibiotics no matter which type do not discriminate between bugs , some are more effective against particular organisms ,none target exclusively ..Long term ABX therapy guarantees a gut dysbiosis ,that's the prevailing opinion .Short term it looks like we may escape these type of complications ,but even that looks like a bit of a lottery ..The time scale ,for a dysbiosis to develop can vary ,it could take years..I'm with you on the phage therapy .. [ Jaep] -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 14:27infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... , I've tried to read your site. I get a bit lost there, sorry. I agree that flora balance is very important, but I blame the invading bacteria for throwing off the balance in the first place, not my own immune system. We are not built to be impervious to bacteria, no matter how strongly our immune systems are designed. I also agree that abx can disturb the flora balance. If my symptoms got worse with a particular abx rather than better, well naturally, I'd stop taking them (and I sometimes do). But my symptoms are most often relieved with the correct abx, which indicates to me that my flora balance has already been compromised by the bacteria, and reducing the bad bacterial load improves the balance, as evidenced by my improved health. Like you, I'd prefer to target specific bugs, and not use broad spectrum killing. Something lik e phage therapy would be ideal. Like smart bombing, able to zoom in on the specific target we want to take out while leaving everything else standing. I hope that becomes a reality soon. I also hope docs start testing us to correctly identify which organisms are overtaking us. Otherwise, it's just more shooting in the dark. penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: I wish you would read my site ..Bacteria rule ,and have done for a ve ry long time 80% of the biomass of the planet is bacteria..that's why we need them ,that's why our relationship with microbes is as old as us ,as the post below it drives our immunity...and that's why taking antibiotics that greatly perturbs the balance of our gut flora and hence our immunity ..Getting back that balance is central to any cure .. ----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 00:40infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Why is it "clear" we're looking at an immunity problem? How long have bacteria been around? And humans? Which do you think has a better chance of survival in the face of catastrophy? My money's on bacteria over even the healthiest human immune system. Especially when you've got a medical establishment that's been doing a good job of creating ever more resistant bugs. How's an immune system supposed to keep up with that? penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: Yes , your post reflects your experience 's ,But many would say CFS is yeast infection ,5,000 in the UK alone belong to a group dedicated to fight th e infection ...Do you think these people are deluded? You surly don't think the explosive growth of Lyme , autism , CFS, autoimmune, yeast infections are coincidental ..Seems to me people cherry pick information ..it's clear that we are looking at an overall problem with immunity and that yeast is central to the problem ... -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Sent: 12 July 2006 20:50infections Subject: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Basically, yes. Lots of people think that the disease state loosely and/or strictly understood as CFS, are usually due to a systemic bacterial infection (or a mixed infection state). Some would even say they have published near-proof to that effect applying to single human cases (Tarello - Micrococcus spp) or large random samples (Mattman//Hulinska - Borrelia burgdorferi). But these demonstrations havent been widely reproduced or won over the scientific community so far.Theres also tons of other little indirect clues - eg the very well-documented effects of strong antibiotic combos on some other diseases like Crohns and undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy (see a post I made yesterday or so for abstracts). These diseases are not CFS but they involve some of the same systemic symptoms.So I cant say absolutely yes, but can give a very strong yes as my personal opinion. Various cases of CFS could have many causes, which in my opinion would usually involve immune activation, and I think that immune activation could be primarily caused by bacteria in many cases. To see an example of a bacterial infection that is very tough to treat, and unresponsive to combination antibiotics in up to 2/3 of cases, see M avium infection, especially HIV-negative cases. This is a known bacterial infection, whose symptoms may well be less responsive to antibiotics than CFS is. This powerfully illustrates that just because a given disease isnt rapidly resolvable by antibiotics, doesnt mean that disease is not caused by bacterial infection.Personally, while I wasnt sick for very long, I have had a slow but very dramatic recovery since starting combination antibiotics - so I feel very little doubt about what I am dealing with in my case.<greenline@...> wrote:>> I have CFS and a bunch of the usual things that go with with. Terrible > sinusitis...I'm taking an antibiotic for a "smoldering" sinus infection > as my doc puts it. I go through 2 rounds of antibiotics twice a year it > seems.> > My question is this...i feel better after 2 weeks on this antibiotic: > cefuroxime axet. Is it just the sinus infection going away? Or could > there be other systemic infections that are getting killed off, too? (> > Thanks.> > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 We'll have to disagree on that. In my view, as soon as a bacteria can gain access to a vulnerable spot in the body, then we can become pretty defenseless pretty quickly. The same bacteria that we all carry can become deadly overnight in a hospital setting. Not because the immune system suddenly fails, but because the bacteria have been able to seize an opportunity and take advantage of a vulnerability. Which, by the way, they're always looking for and adapting to. People have been dying throughout the ages from injuries when infection sets in. When you think about all of the traumas or the modern age that we accept as normal (dental trauma, outpatient surgical procedures, sports injuries, etc), and all the resistant strains of bugs floating around, it makes sense that bacteria are gaining access and colonizing areas they wouldn't normally have access to, making us chronically ill. If our immune systems weren't working so well, we'd already be dead of sepsis. penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: Well thanks for the feedback on my site , I am surprised you get lost , but there it is , if I get many more who report the same I'll need to revamp ...We are built to be impervious to bacteria ..that's the point, we aren't anymore hence the increased explosive growth of many infection based conditions ...Antibiotics no matter which type do not discriminate between bugs , some are more effective against particular organisms ,none target exclusively ..Long term ABX therapy guarantees a gut dysbiosis ,that's the prevailing opinion .Short term it looks like we may escape these type of complications ,but even that looks like a bit of a lottery ..The time scale ,for a dysbiosis to develop can vary ,it could take years..I'm with you on the phage therapy .. [ Jaep] -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 14:27infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... , I've tried to read your site. I get a bit lost there, sorry. I agree that flora balance is very important, but I blame the invading bacteria for throwing off the balance in the first place, not my own immune system. We are not built to be impervious to bacteria, no matter how strongly our immune systems are designed. I also agree that abx can disturb the flora balance. If my symptoms got worse with a particular abx rather than better, well naturally, I'd stop taking them (and I sometimes do). But my symptoms are most often relieved with the correct abx, which indicates to me that my flora balance has already been compromised by the bacteria, and reducing the bad bacterial load improves the balance, as evidenced by my improved health. Like you, I'd prefer to target specific bugs, and not use broad spectrum killing. Something lik e phage therapy would be ideal. Like smart bombing, able to zoom in on the specific target we want to take out while leaving everything else standing. I hope that becomes a reality soon. I also hope docs start testing us to correctly identify which organisms are overtaking us. Otherwise, it's just more shooting in the dark. penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: I wish you would read my site ..Bacteria rule ,and have done for a ve ry long time 80% of the biomass of the planet is bacteria..that's why we need them ,that's why our relationship with microbes is as old as us ,as the post below it drives our immunity...and that's why taking antibiotics that greatly perturbs the balance of our gut flora and hence our immunity ..Getting back that balance is central to any cure .. ----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 00:40infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Why is it "clear" we're looking at an immunity problem? How long have bacteria been around? And humans? Which do you think has a better chance of survival in the face of catastrophy? My money's on bacteria over even the healthiest human immune system. Especially when you've got a medical establishment that's been doing a good job of creating ever more resistant bugs. How's an immune system supposed to keep up with that? penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: Yes , your post reflects your experience 's ,But many would say CFS is yeast infection ,5,000 in the UK alone belong to a group dedicated to fight th e infection ...Do you think these people are deluded? You surly don't think the explosive growth of Lyme , autism , CFS, autoimmune, yeast infections are coincidental ..Seems to me people cherry pick information ..it's clear that we are looking at an overall problem with immunity and that yeast is central to the problem ... -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Sent: 12 July 2006 20:50infections Subject: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Basically, yes. Lots of people think that the disease state loosely and/or strictly understood as CFS, are usually due to a systemic bacterial infection (or a mixed infection state). Some would even say they have published near-proof to that effect applying to single human cases (Tarello - Micrococcus spp) or large random samples (Mattman//Hulinska - Borrelia burgdorferi). But these demonstrations havent been widely reproduced or won over the scientific community so far.Theres also tons of other little indirect clues - eg the very well-documented effects of strong antibiotic combos on some other diseases like Crohns and undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy (see a post I made yesterday or so for abstracts). These diseases are not CFS but they involve some of the same systemic symptoms.So I cant say absolutely yes, but can give a very strong yes as my personal opinion. Various cases of CFS could have many causes, which in my opinion would usually involve immune activation, and I think that immune activation could be primarily caused by bacteria in many cases. To see an example of a bacterial infection that is very tough to treat, and unresponsive to combination antibiotics in up to 2/3 of cases, see M avium infection, especially HIV-negative cases. This is a known bacterial infection, whose symptoms may well be less responsive to antibiotics than CFS is. This powerfully illustrates that just because a given disease isnt rapidly resolvable by antibiotics, doesnt mean that disease is not caused by bacterial infection.Personally, while I wasnt sick for very long, I have had a slow but very dramatic recovery since starting combination antibiotics - so I feel very little doubt about what I am dealing with in my case.<greenline@...> wrote:>> I have CFS and a bunch of the usual things that go with with. Terrible > sinusitis...I'm taking an antibiotic for a "smoldering" sinus infection > as my doc puts it. I go through 2 rounds of antibiotics twice a year it > seems.> > My question is this...i feel better after 2 weeks on this antibiotic: > cefuroxime axet. Is it just the sinus infection going away? Or could > there be other systemic infections that are getting killed off, too? (> > Thanks.> > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 Quantative comparisons are still controversial .Because Candida is present as a commensal organism what constitutes a pathogenic amount is debatable ..According to Cranton you don't need to be symptomatic to suffer the consequences of Candida overgrowth ..Its not a question of how much will push you over the edge its a question of accepting yeast can be responsible for a cascade of health damaging changes....The mainstream medical profession at the present do not recognise Candida as a major component in deteriorating health ..The evidence is overwhelming to the contrary . There lies the problem ,do you believe the thousands who give testament to the debilitating effects of yeast ,or do you believe the doctors who say the condition does not exist ...I have some beautiful extracts that contradict the "all in the head" camp..i'll look them up tomorrow ...good debate!... -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Sent: 13 July 2006 00:15infections Subject: [infections] Re: antibiotic... > Yes , your post reflects your experience 's True, but I didnt make any universal statements about the cause of CFS, just said that many cases of CFS could be (and probably are IMO)fundamentally due to bacteria. One could bring up lots of other findings, such as the antiviral trials I summarized here: http://www.cpnhelp.org/?q=preparing_for_pulse_1Do you know if Cranton or anyone ever tried to test the GI candida overgrowth model by some sort of direct examination of candidal populations in the lumen/mucous/mucosa? Seems like it should be a fairly straightforward determination, if I'm not overlooking something. Or do you favor more of a systemic candidiasis model? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Share Posted July 13, 2006 What a strange viewpoint ,my head is swimming , We are not talking of hospital settings , this is mass illness in a normal population ..Not the killer bugs malaria ,cholera etc ..but common ubiquitous organisms , mycoplasma and the like..The vulnerability is the key ..Its not the super bugs its our inability to combat everyday ubiquitous would be pathogens -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 22:04infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... We'll have to disagree on that. In my view, as soon as a bacteria can gain access to a vulnerable spot in the body, then we can become pretty defenseless pretty quickly. The same bacteria that we all carry can become deadly overnight in a hospital setting. Not because the immune system suddenly fails, but because the bacteria have been able to seize an opportunity and take advantage of a vulnerability. Which, by the way, they're always looking for and adapting to. People have been dying throughout the ages from injuries when infection sets in. When you think about all of the traumas or the modern age that we accept as normal (dental trauma, outpatient surgical procedures, sports injuries, etc), and all the resistant strains of bugs floating around, it makes sense that bacteria are gaining access and colonizing areas they wouldn't normally have access to, making us chronically ill. If our immune systems weren't working so well, we'd already be dead of sepsis. penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: Well thanks for the feedback on my site , I am surprised you get lost , but there it is , if I get many more who report the same I'll need to revamp ...We are built to be impervious to bacteria ..that's the point, we aren't anymore hence the increased explosive growth of many infection based conditions ...Antibiotics no matter which type do not discriminate between bugs , some are more effective against particular organisms ,none target exclusively ..Long term ABX therapy guarantees a gut dysbiosis ,that's the prevailing opinion .Short term it looks like we may escape these type of complications ,but even that looks like a bit of a lottery ..The time scale ,for a dysbiosis to develop can vary ,it could take years..I'm with you on the phage therapy .. [ Jaep] -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 14:27infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... , I've tried to read your site. I get a bit lost there, sorry. I agree that flora balance is very important, but I blame the invading bacteria for throwing off the balance in the first place, not my own immune system. We are not built to be impervious to bacteria, no matter how strongly our immune systems are designed. I also agree that abx can disturb the flora balance. If my symptoms got worse with a particular abx rather than better, well naturally, I'd stop taking them (and I sometimes do). But my symptoms are most often relieved with the correct abx, which indicates to me that my flora balance has already been compromised by the bacteria, and reducing the bad bacterial load improves the balance, as evidenced by my improved health. Like you, I'd prefer to target specific bugs, and not use broad spectrum killing. Something lik e phage therapy would be ideal. Like smart bombing, able to zoom in on the specific target we want to take out while leaving everything else standing. I hope that becomes a reality soon. I also hope docs start testing us to correctly identify which organisms are overtaking us. Otherwise, it's just more shooting in the dark. penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: I wish you would read my site ..Bacteria rule ,and have done for a ve ry long time 80% of the biomass of the planet is bacteria..that's why we need them ,that's why our relationship with microbes is as old as us ,as the post below it drives our immunity...and that's why taking antibiotics that greatly perturbs the balance of our gut flora and hence our immunity ..Getting back that balance is central to any cure .. ----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 00:40infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Why is it "clear" we're looking at an immunity problem? How long have bacteria been around? And humans? Which do you think has a better chance of survival in the face of catastrophy? My money' s on bacteria over even the healthiest human immune system. Especially when you've got a medical establishment that's been doing a good job of creating ever more resistant bugs. How's an immune system supposed to keep up with that? penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: Yes , your post reflects your experience 's ,But many would say CFS is yeast infection ,5,000 in the UK alone belong to a group dedicated to fight th e infection ...Do you think these people are deluded? You surly don't think the explosive growth of Lyme , autism , CFS, autoimmune, yeast infections are coincidental ..Seems to me people cherry pick information ..it's clear that we are looking at an overall problem wi th immunity and that yeast is central to the problem ... -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Sent: 12 July 2006 20:50infections Subject: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Basically, yes. Lots of people think that the disease state loosely and/or strictly understood as CFS, are usually due to a systemic bacterial infection (or a mixed infection state). Some would even say they have published near-proof to that effect applying to single human cases (Tare llo - Micrococcus spp) or large random samples (Mattman//Hulinska - Borrelia burgdorferi). But these demonstrations havent been widely reproduced or won over the scientific community so far.Theres also tons of other little indirect clues - eg the very well-documented effects of strong antibiotic combos on some other diseases like Crohns and undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy (see a post I made yesterday or so for abstracts). These diseases are not CFS but they involve some of the same systemic symptoms.So I cant say absolutely yes, but can give a very strong yes as my personal opinion. Various cases of CFS could have many causes, which in my opinion would usually involve immune activation, and I think that immune activation could be primarily caused by bacteria in many cases. To see an example of a bacterial infection that is very tough to treat, and unresponsive to combination antibiotics in up to 2/3 of cases, see M avium infection, especially HIV-negative cases. This is a known bacterial infection, whose symptoms may well be less responsive to antibiotics than CFS is. This powerfully illustrates that just because a given disease isnt rapidly resolvable by antibiotics, doesnt mean that disease is not caused by bacterial infection.Personally, while I wasnt sick for very long, I have had a slow but very dramatic recovery since starting combination antibiotics - so I feel very little doubt about what I am dealing with in my case.<greenline@...> wrote:>> I have CFS and a bunch of the usual things that go with with. Terrible > sinusitis...I'm taking an antibiotic for a "smoldering" sinus infection > as my doc puts it. I go through 2 rounds of antibiotics twice a year it > seems.> > My question is this...i feel better after 2 weeks on this antibiotic: > cefuroxime axet. Is it just the sinus infection going away? Or could > there be other systemic infections that are getting killed off, too? (> > Thanks.> > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 , your viewpoint is so exclusionary. You should know very well I'm not talking about your version of "super bugs". I'm talking about the most ordinary bugs. Did you click on the link in Chris's phage post about clinically significant strains of staph? How many there are? Have you ever even read about chronic osteomyelitis (bone infection) or other chronic infectious diseases? In Chronic Osteomyelitis, the organisms are most commonly staph a. along with other everyday variety bugs, that turn very problematic in the right location. And what about hypercoagulation? 80% of people with chronic Osteomyelitis usually have hypercoagulation disorders. That's not caused by a gut flora imbalance. It's a blood clotting problem. Often hereditary. (Meaning a built in weakness, not an acquired immunity problem.) You obviously haven't talked to the scores of people I've talked to who can link their illness back to a specific trauma (like a dental procedure) or injury or infection acquired in a public place, like a swimming pool, where the bugs should be killed by the massive amounts of chlorine, but aren't. You have such blinders on that even though you know a lot about your area, and I respect your knowledge in that area, it's hard to take your viewpoint seriously when you exclude all other information. penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: What a strange viewpoint ,my head is swimming , We are not talking of hospital settings , this is mass illness in a normal population ..Not the killer bugs malaria ,cholera etc ..but common ubiquitous organisms , mycoplasma and the like..The vulnerability is the key ..Its not the super bugs its our inability to combat everyday ubiquitous would be pathogens -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 22:04infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... We'll have to disagree on that. In my view, as soon as a bacteria can gain access to a vulnerable spot in the body, then we can become pretty defenseless pretty quickly. The same bacteria that we all carry can become deadly overnight in a hospital setting. Not because the immune system suddenly fails, but because the bacteria have been able to seize an opportunity and take advantage of a vulnerability. Which, by the way, they're always looking for and adapting to. People have been dying throughout the ages from injuries when infection sets in. When you think about all of the traumas or the modern age that we accept as normal (dental trauma, outpatient surgical procedures, sports injuries, etc), and all the resistant strains of bugs floating around, it makes sense that bacteria are gaining access and colonizing areas they wouldn't normally have access to, making us chronically ill. If our immune systems weren't working so well, we'd already be dead of sepsis. penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: Well thanks for the feedback on my site , I am surprised you get lost , but there it is , if I get many more who report the same I'll need to revamp ...We are built to be impervious to bacteria ..that's the point, we aren't anymore hence the increased explosive growth of many infection based conditions ...Antibiotics no matter which type do not discriminate between bugs , some are more effective against particular organisms ,none target exclusively ..Long term ABX therapy guarantees a gut dysbiosis ,that's the prevailing opinion .Short term it looks like we may escape these type of complications ,but even that looks like a bit of a lottery ..The time scale ,for a dysbiosis to develop can vary ,it could take years..I'm with you on the phage therapy .. [ Jaep] -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 14:27infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... , I've tried to read your site. I get a bit lost there, sorry. I agree that flora balance is very important, but I blame the invading bacteria for throwing off the balance in the first place, not my own immune system. We are not built to be impervious to bacteria, no matter how strongly our immune systems are designed. I also agree that abx can disturb the flora balance. If my symptoms got worse with a particular abx rather than better, well naturally, I'd stop taking them (and I sometimes do). But my symptoms are most often relieved with the correct abx, which indicates to me that my flora balance has already been compromised by the bacteria, and reducing the bad bacterial load improves the balance, as evidenced by my improved health. Like you, I'd prefer to target specific bugs, and not use broad spectrum killing. Something lik e phage therapy would be ideal. Like smart bombing, able to zoom in on the specific target we want to take out while leaving everything else standing. I hope that becomes a reality soon. I also hope docs start testing us to correctly identify which organisms are overtaking us. Otherwise, it's just more shooting in the dark. penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: I wish you would read my site ..Bacteria rule ,and have done for a ve ry long time 80% of the biomass of the planet is bacteria..that's why we need them ,that's why our relationship with microbes is as old as us ,as the post below it drives our immunity...and that's why taking antibiotics that greatly perturbs the balance of our gut flora and hence our immunity ..Getting back that balance is central to any cure .. ----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 00:40infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Why is it "clear" we're looking at an immunity problem? How long have bacteria been around? And humans? Which do you think has a better chance of survival in the face of catastrophy? My money' s on bacteria over even the healthiest human immune system. Especially when you've got a medical establishment that's been doing a good job of creating ever more resistant bugs. How's an immune system supposed to keep up with that? penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: Yes , your post reflects your experience 's ,But many would say CFS is yeast infection ,5,000 in the UK alone belong to a group dedicated to fight th e infection ...Do you think these people are deluded? You surly don't think the explosive growth of Lyme , autism , CFS, autoimmune, yeast infections are coincidental ..Seems to me people cherry pick information ..it's clear that we are looking at an overall problem wi th immunity and that yeast is central to the problem ... -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Sent: 12 July 2006 20:50infections Subject: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Basically, yes. Lots of people think that the disease state loosely and/or strictly understood as CFS, are usually due to a systemic bacterial infection (or a mixed infection state). Some would even say they have published near-proof to that effect applying to single human cases (Tare llo - Micrococcus spp) or large random samples (Mattman//Hulinska - Borrelia burgdorferi). But these demonstrations havent been widely reproduced or won over the scientific community so far.Theres also tons of other little indirect clues - eg the very well-documented effects of strong antibiotic combos on some other diseases like Crohns and undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy (see a post I made yesterday or so for abstracts). These diseases are not CFS but they involve some of the same systemic symptoms.So I cant say absolutely yes, but can give a very strong yes as my personal opinion. Various cases of CFS could have many causes, which in my opinion would usually involve immune activation, and I think that immune activation could be primarily caused by bacteria in many cases. To see an example of a bacterial infection that is very tough to treat, and unresponsive to combination antibiotics in up to 2/3 of cases, see M avium infection, especially HIV-negative cases. This is a known bacterial infection, whose symptoms may well be less responsive to antibiotics than CFS is. This powerfully illustrates that just because a given disease isnt rapidly resolvable by antibiotics, doesnt mean that disease is not caused by bacterial infection.Personally, while I wasnt sick for very long, I have had a slow but very dramatic recovery since starting combination antibiotics - so I feel very little doubt about what I am dealing with in my case.<greenline@...> wrote:>> I have CFS and a bunch of the usual things that go with with. Terrible > sinusitis...I'm taking an antibiotic for a "smoldering" sinus infection > as my doc puts it. I go through 2 rounds of antibiotics twice a year it > seems.> > My question is this...i feel better after 2 weeks on this antibiotic: > cefuroxime axet. Is it just the sinus infection going away? Or could > there be other systemic infections that are getting killed off, too? (> > Thanks.> > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 I must beg to differ , I'll answer your post in more detail if you wish , But I think it's time to end the discussion ..Look what's turned up today ..the incidence of Autism is now 1/100 in the UK ... Of course there isn't an underling cause ..surly not ..is there !!! https://eportal.focus.co.uk/portal/cds/host.xps Just off topic .,have a listen to my sons piano playing ... http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TJaep -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 14 July 2006 03:08infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... , your viewpoint is so exclusionary. You should know very well I'm not talking about your version of "super bugs". I'm talking about the most ordinary bugs. Did you click on the link in Chris's phage post about clinically significant strains of staph? How many there are? Have you ever even read about chronic osteomyelitis (bone infection) or other chronic infectious diseases? In Chronic Osteomyelitis, the organisms are most commonly staph a. along with other everyday variety bugs, that turn very problematic in the right location. And what about hypercoagulation? 80% of people with chronic Osteomyelitis usually have hypercoagulation disorders. That's not caused by a gut flora imbalance. It's a blood clotting problem. Often hereditary. (Meaning a built in weakness, not an acquired immunity problem.) You obviously haven't talked to the scores of people I've talked to who can link their illness back to a specific trauma (like a dental procedure) or injury or infection acquired in a public place, like a swimming pool, where the bugs should be killed by the massive amounts of chlorine, but aren't. You have such blinders on that even though you know a lot about your area, and I respect your knowledge in that area, it's hard to take your viewpoint seriously when you exclude all other information. penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: What a strange viewpoint ,my head is swimming , We are not talking of hospital settings , this is mass illness in a normal population ..Not the killer bugs malaria ,cholera etc ..but common ubiquitous organisms , mycoplasma and the like..The vulnerability is the key ..Its not the super bugs its our inability to combat everyday ubiquitous would be pathogens -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny Houl eSent: 13 July 2006 22:04infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... We'll have to disagree on that. In my view, as soon as a bacteria can gain access to a vulnerable spot in the body, then we can become pretty defenseless pretty quickly. The same bacteria that we all carry can become deadly overnight in a hospital setting. Not because the immune system suddenly fails, but because the bacteria have been able to seize an opportunity and take advantage of a vulnerability. Which, by the way, they're always looking for and adapting to. People have been dying throughout the ages from injuries when infection sets in. When you think about all of the traumas or the modern age that we accept as normal (dental trauma, outpatient surgical procedures, sports injuries, etc), and all the resistant strains of bugs floating around, it makes sense that bacteria are gaining access and colonizing areas they wouldn't normally have access to, making us chronically ill. If our immune systems weren't working so well, we'd already be dead of sepsis. penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: Well thanks for the feedback on my site , I am surprised you get lost , but there it is , if I get many more who report the same I'll need to revamp ...We are built to be impervious to bacteria ..that's the point, we aren't anymore hence the increased explosive growth of many infection based conditions ...Antibiotics no matter which type do not discriminate between bugs , some are more effective against particular organisms ,none target exclusively ..Long term ABX therapy guarantees a gut dysbiosis ,that's the prevailing opinion .Short term it looks like we may escape these type of complications ,but even that looks like a bit of a lottery ..The time scale ,for a dysbiosis to develop can vary ,it could take years..I'm with you on the phage therapy .. [ Jaep] -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 14:27infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... , I've tried to read your site. I get a bit lost there, sorry. I agree that flora balance is very important, but I blame the invading bacteria for throwing off the balance in the first place, not my own immune system. We are not built to be impervious to bacteria, no matter how strongly our immune systems are designed. I also agree that abx can disturb the flora balance. If my symptoms got worse with a particular abx rather than better, well naturally, I'd stop taking them (and I sometimes do). But my symptoms are most often relieved with the correct abx, which indicates to me that my flora balance has already been compromised by the bacteria, and reducing the bad bacterial load improves the balance, as evidenced by my improved health. Like you, I'd prefer to target specific bugs, and not use broad spectrum killing. Something lik e phage therapy would be ideal. Like smart bombing, able to zoom in on the specific target we want to take out while leaving everything else standing. I hope that becomes a reality soon. I also hope docs start testing us to correctly identify which organisms are overtaking us. Otherwise, it's just more shooting in the dark. penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: I wish you would read my site ..Bacteria rule ,and have done for a ve ry long time 80% of the biomass of the planet is bacteria..that's why we need them ,that's why our relationship with microbes is as old as us ,as the post below it drives our immunity...and that's why taking antibiotics that greatly perturbs the balance of our gut flora and hence our immunity ..Getting back that balance is central to any cure .. ----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Penny HouleSent: 13 July 2006 00:40infections Subject: RE: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Why is it "clear" we're looking at an immunity problem? How long have bacteria been around? And humans? Which do you think has a better chance of survival in the face of catastrophy? My money' s on bacteria over even the healthiest human immune system. Especially when you've got a medical establishment that's been doing a good job of creating ever more resistant bugs. How's an immune system supposed to keep up with that? penny Jaep <Jaep@...> wrote: Yes , your post reflects your experience 's ,But many would say CFS is yeast infection ,5,000 in the UK alone belong to a group dedicated to fight th e infection ...Do you think these people are deluded? You surly don't think the explosive growth of Lyme , autism , CFS, autoimmune, yeast infections are coincidental ..Seems to me people cherry pick information ..it's clear that we are looking at an overall problem wi th immunity and that yeast is central to the problem ... -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Sent: 12 July 2006 20:50infections Subject: [infections] Re: antibiotic... Basically, yes. Lots of people think that the disease st ate loosely and/or strictly understood as CFS, are usually due to a systemic bacterial infection (or a mixed infection state). Some would even say they have published near-proof to that effect applying to single human cases (Tare llo - Micrococcus spp) or large random samples (Mattman//Hulinska - Borrelia burgdorferi). But these demonstrations havent been widely reproduced or won over the scientific community so far.Theres also tons of other little indirect clues - eg the very well-documented effects of strong antibiotic combos on some other diseases like Crohns and undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy (see a post I made yesterday or so for abstracts). These diseases are not CFS but they involve some of the same systemic symptoms.So I cant say absolutely yes, but can give a very strong yes as my personal opinion. Various cases of CFS could have many causes, which in my opinion would usually involve immune activation, and I think that immune activation could be primarily caused by bacteria in many cases. To see an example of a bacterial infection that is very tough to treat, and unresponsive to combination antibiotics in up to 2/3 of cases, see M avium infection, especially HIV-negative cases. This is a known bacterial infection, whose symptoms may well be less responsive to antibiotics than CFS is. This powerfully illustrates that just because a given disease isnt rapidly resolvable by antibiotics, doesnt mean that disease is not caused by bacterial infection.Personally, while I wasnt sick for very long, I have had a slow but very dramatic recovery since starting combination antibiotics - so I feel very little doubt about what I am dealing with in my case.<greenline@...> wrote:>> I have CFS and a bunch of the usual things that go with with. Terrible > sinusitis...I'm taking an antibiotic for a "smoldering" sinus infection > as my doc puts it. I go through 2 rounds of antibiotics twice a year it > seems.> > My question is this...i feel better after 2 weeks on this antibiotic: > cefuroxime axet. Is it just the sinus infection going away? Or could > there be other systemic infections that are getting killed off, too? (> > Thanks.> > Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2006 Report Share Posted July 14, 2006 I was amazed at how a group from florida with fibromyalgia did everything to attack the biofilms that they call something else. They basically function fibromyalgia free when they use there science to stop feeding the biofilms.Ph does come up as well if I recall correctly. > > > While this might work for some reason... most bacteria can create the > polysaccharide biofilms from the nutrients present in the body. > Bacteria should not have any nutritional/metabolic problem coming up > with biofilm slime, no matter what you eat. > > > > penny > > really nailed it with the biofilm and the antibiotic failures. > > I'm sure the biofilm hides the bacteria from the immune system just > > as easily. > > There's a whole lot of people that focus on the slime 9BIOFILM) > > and there fibromyalgia ilness.THEY AVOID ALL FOODS THAT CREATE THE > > BIOFILM FORMATIONS AND FIND THEY FUNCTION NICELY.i THINK THE CANDIDA > > APPROACH SOMEWHAT SUITS THIS IMO. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 Wow, I'll totally back up from that one. Happened to see some stuff in a book about bacteria producing very different extracellular polysaccharides when grown on different substrates. News to me. So, I'd now say maybe diet could affect biofilm formation in the GI - and also outside the GI, if diet can affect the composition of the human body - I dont know. > While this might work for some reason... most bacteria can create the > polysaccharide biofilms from the nutrients present in the body. > Bacteria should not have any nutritional/metabolic problem coming up > with biofilm slime, no matter what you eat. > > > > penny > > really nailed it with the biofilm and the antibiotic failures. > > I'm sure the biofilm hides the bacteria from the immune system just > > as easily. > > There's a whole lot of people that focus on the slime 9BIOFILM) > > and there fibromyalgia ilness.THEY AVOID ALL FOODS THAT CREATE THE > > BIOFILM FORMATIONS AND FIND THEY FUNCTION NICELY.i THINK THE CANDIDA > > APPROACH SOMEWHAT SUITS THIS IMO. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2006 Report Share Posted July 15, 2006 So does anyone have specific citations or theories as to what foods would influence or inhibit biofilm development in the gut? --Bob wrote: > > Wow, I'll totally back up from that one. Happened to see some stuff > in a book about bacteria producing very different extracellular > polysaccharides when grown on different substrates. News to me. So, > I'd now say maybe diet could affect biofilm formation in the GI - > and also outside the GI, if diet can affect the composition of the > human body - I dont know. > > > While this might work for some reason... most bacteria can create > the > > polysaccharide biofilms from the nutrients present in the body. > > Bacteria should not have any nutritional/metabolic problem coming > up > > with biofilm slime, no matter what you eat. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 Guys This topic is very important, because what you believe, and what you can actually grow, MATTERS.Candida won't be culturable in normal folk, you need to add some form of chemical agent to make it show up... Fungus is more likely to pop up in a culture when there's NO INFLAMMATION (surprisingly enough).You basically grow many different soil based organiusms in the non inflammed.In other words if you took a pinch of earth you grow a nice variety of organisms. if your suffering inflammation nothing settles in the inflammed area's but the pathogens causing the inflammation..IMO and in my observations......................... > > > Quantative comparisons are still controversial .Because Candida is present > as a commensal organism what constitutes a pathogenic amount is debatable > ..According to Cranton you don't need to be symptomatic to suffer the > consequences of Candida overgrowth ..Its not a question of how much will > push you over the edge its a question of accepting yeast can be responsible > for a cascade of health damaging changes....The mainstream medical > profession at the present do not recognise Candida as a major component in > deteriorating health ..The evidence is overwhelming to the contrary . There > lies the problem ,do you believe the thousands who give testament to the > debilitating effects of yeast ,or do you believe the doctors who say the > condition does not exist ...I have some beautiful extracts that contradict > the " all in the head " camp..i'll look them up tomorrow ...good > debate!... > > > > > > > > [infections] Re: antibiotic... > > > > > Yes , your post reflects your experience 's > > True, but I didnt make any universal statements about the cause of CFS, > just said that many cases of CFS could be (and probably are IMO) > fundamentally due to bacteria. > > One could bring up lots of other findings, such as the antiviral trials > I summarized here: http://www.cpnhelp.org/?q=preparing_for_pulse_1 > > Do you know if Cranton or anyone ever tried to test the GI candida > overgrowth model by some sort of direct examination of candidal > populations in the lumen/mucous/mucosa? Seems like it should be a > fairly straightforward determination, if I'm not overlooking something. > > Or do you favor more of a systemic candidiasis model? > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 07/07/2006 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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