Re: My final thoughts.....

[Guest guest]

Jelly, all I'm asking is that YOU, in or out of the box, be responsible. Think about others for a change. The docs who are sympathetic to us have enough going wrong for them, what they don't need is a flood of patients going off the deep end on a mistaken notion like the one you're intent on pushing, which is "herxing". It's just making things worse than they already are and our community is looking less credible by the minute. You clearly don't know what a herx is or you wouldn't be suggesting magnesium can cause one. If something as innocuous as magnesium can cause a true herx, then I would propose that a multitude of products be pulled from the market immediately. Just think of all the unsuspecting elderly who could be seriously harmed, even killed, by Milk of Magnesia! Sheesh. penny jellybelly92008 <herranenb@...> wrote: Tony, Penny and Barb, I did not come here looking to get my mind changed. You are as insistant that I am not herxing, as I am that I am herxing. I know what the symptoms are that I feel, and I know what the symtpoms of a herx are, they fit. Our primary disagreement is that it can't possibly happen on such a low dose of ABX. So we are at an impass there and we will have to agree to disagree. It is not every crappy feeling that I attribute to a herx, just the

ones associated with ABX meant to kill infection. Mag is believed by many to cause herxing under the right circumstances. Just because herxing is not generally listed as an effect of Mag, does not prove that it isn't what is happening, time will tell. It wasn't that long ago that CFS, FM, Lyme weren't even thoughts. I climbed the CFS, FM ladder all alone, now they are pretty much household words and accepted by most all medical professionals, if they keep up on mainstream medicine at all. You have all given me things to read, and what you are not seeing apparently is that the stuff you are sharing with me comes from mainstream medical science. If they say that ABX only kill bacteria at this dose, you stake your life on it. Even though I don't know that any of these tests have been on Lyme per say. No one seems to have tested low dose Mino to see what happens to Lyme, so how can you say with such certainty that

it is not causing a die off??? You can't!!!!If we all fully believed what mainstream medical science tells us, then there is no chance that staph is at the source of our sinus infections, because all studies and lab tests say it isn't.....but you all disagree, because of experience. There is absolutely nothing in mainstream to support that belief though. I could pull up no doubt hundreds of reports saying what you believe couldn't possibly be true more likely. If we believe mainstream medical science then there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with us. We are all healthy as horses.....right? There is nothing in mainstream that indicates we are sick....right? It was thinking outside the box that got us this far. Who gives a rat's behind whether or not we can find anything published mainstream on our supposed illnesses. We are sick and we know it. Mainstream medicne thinks we are all crazy and still out looking

to lynch doctors who are treating us.All I am asking is that we keep thinking beyond this box we are know in. If you think you know all there is about herxing, then your not only in a box but you have the lid nailed on. It amazes me when people are so closed minded about stuff not totally understood yet. You would think "we" would know better. Sigh> Since then, I have read that there are specialists who believe that> you can indeed herx off of mag. The reason being that it helps your> body do what it should, it functions better. Other then this, I have> never read of any negative side effects expected from magnesium> other then the runs. Maybe you have, but in this case maybe it isn't> a negative reaction, but actually a herx. Proof otherwise???>

[Guest guest]

Jelly

There's over 100 antibiotic groups ...Why do you think your mino

mini cycles is killing anything????You'd be a foolish girl to

believe that the other 100plus antibiotics arent needed to tackle

certain infections when all you obviously need is mino that can

attack them all.Sinus pseudonomas does not get killed by mino it

just gets annoyed so maybe you need to go back to the drawing borad

on your whole belief system if your dealing with this common cfs

sinus bug.Just a thought for you to ponder during your next herx

cycle

> > Since then, I have read that there are specialists who believe

that

> > you can indeed herx off of mag. The reason being that it helps

your

> > body do what it should, it functions better. Other then this, I

> have

> > never read of any negative side effects expected from magnesium

> > other then the runs. Maybe you have, but in this case maybe it

> isn't

> > a negative reaction, but actually a herx. Proof otherwise???

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Tony said, " ...Why do you think your mino

mini cycles is killing anything???? " Answer: Because I have had

nearly complete reversal of all symptoms. You have yet to tell me

why you think this is happening, of it isn't the mini mino. Every

time I ask, you manage to avoid giving your explanation. You clearly

aren't listening, your to busy trying to make everyones symptoms fit

your theory and from I can see, it is nothing but your own.

> > > Since then, I have read that there are specialists who believe

> that

> > > you can indeed herx off of mag. The reason being that it helps

> your

> > > body do what it should, it functions better. Other then this,

I

> > have

> > > never read of any negative side effects expected from magnesium

> > > other then the runs. Maybe you have, but in this case maybe it

> > isn't

> > > a negative reaction, but actually a herx. Proof otherwise???

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Jelly:

I supply the supporting literture

that supports my opinion - then you say that literature is not

acceptable to you -

If you read anmicrobial literature and it lists the MIC for a

specific abx, but you don't beleive that's true - then Jelly I just

don't know what else to say.

As I said before- to change my mind,

I do need more than a subjective observation.

Barb

> > Since then, I have read that there are specialists who believe

that

> > you can indeed herx off of mag. The reason being that it helps

your

> > body do what it should, it functions better. Other then this, I

> have

> > never read of any negative side effects expected from magnesium

> > other then the runs. Maybe you have, but in this case maybe it

> isn't

> > a negative reaction, but actually a herx. Proof otherwise???

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I haven't got much faith anymore in mainstream medicine. Why, for

the same reason most of us have lost faith. So when you show me

what " they " think about how ABX work on certain organisms, it

doesn't carry much weight. Especially when my body is telling me

something else is happening. Mainstream medicine has not gotten me

well, it is those who think outside the known parameters that are

getting well and getting people well.

Penny, said to me that what I am telling people is dangerous. It

could make us all look like a bunch of whackos (not a quote) if we

all went in asking for low dose Mino. Well, surprise, there are many

docs out there already doing it. Besides, what is often hammered

here sounds pretty wacko to the majority. Throw Tony's staph agenda

at the mainstream docs and most will just laugh at him. So who

really cares what mainstream medicine has to say in general, at

least Tony is thinking outside of their box, and may actually be on

to something, as many of us may be.

What you have showed me has a few flaws in what I am specifically

looking for. First off, I am not talking about just any organism or

your typical bacteria. I want to know what happens to Lyme and

Mycoplasma. They are different, almost scarey smart, particularly

Lyme. Second, most tests are done in a petre dish, which can't even

begin to compare with what might happen in the human body. To say,

put the bacteria on the plate, add 200 mags of Mino, and then yup,

it killed it. Add, 50 mgs to another dish, well it killed some of

it, is not what I am looking for.

What happens when you put that 50 mag dose into the human body. Do

other factors come into play? Does this 50 mags work better or does

it make it worse or is it exactly the same. Apparently that info is

not out there, and that will just have to be ok for now. Not your

fault. That is what I was asking for though, tried to make that

clear, but everyone just keeps coming back to you can't be herxing

because the petre test shows it isn't pssoible.

I wasn't looking for anyone to back what I perceive as a herx,

because from all I read, even what Carole posted yesterday, this is

what is happening to me. There are 1000's upon 1000's who will say I

am herxing and this will include many in the medical profession.

Then I have a couple of people here telling me it is impossible. You

need more then an observation (that's all I have for now, was here

looking for supporting evidence), and I need more then opinions, I

already have plenty of my own.

All I was able to give was my experience and was looking for a WHY.

It's not out there, so OK.

> > > Since then, I have read that there are specialists who believe

> that

> > > you can indeed herx off of mag. The reason being that it helps

> your

> > > body do what it should, it functions better. Other then this,

I

> > have

> > > never read of any negative side effects expected from magnesium

> > > other then the runs. Maybe you have, but in this case maybe it

> > isn't

> > > a negative reaction, but actually a herx. Proof otherwise???

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Jelly said: "You have yet to tell me why you think this is happening, of it isn't the mini mino." Jelly, I think it's a credibility problem. Why should anyone have to "prove" to you that something's not true? If we're all so entitled then I'd like you to prove to me that ghosts aren't the cause of my illness. Sorry, Jelly, but it's hard to take your assertions seriously for a lot of reasons. I'd hate to see people risk making their bugs stronger than they already are due to inadequate antibiotic coverage, or be harmed by a drug reaction because they believe they're "herxing", on your say so alone. If you've really had a "nearly complete reversal of symptoms" from 4 mg of minocycline, you'd be the only one I've heard of. I'd really have to question the severity of your symptoms too.

If it really were so easy to overcome this disabling illness, I can't understand why it hasn't caught on like wildfire. This site is about team work. Not endless bickering and one-upmanship. Of course we have different opinions and different styles of communication but it doesn't mean we are here to war with each other over them. We're here to help each other. My suggestion is to come back in 6 to 12 months and tell us how you're feeling. If you've maintained your recovery (a real, documented recovery), then be a humanitarian and share it with everybody. You can even pound us over the head about it. But I'm tired of arguing about something you want to believe so much that it clouds your judgement. penny jellybelly92008 <herranenb@...> wrote: Tony said, "...Why do you think your minomini cycles is killing anything????" Answer: Because I have had nearly complete reversal of all symptoms. You have yet to tell me why you think this is happening, of it isn't the mini mino. Every time I ask, you manage to avoid giving your explanation. You clearly aren't listening, your to busy trying to make everyones symptoms fit your theory and from I can see, it is nothing but your own. > > > Since then, I have read that there are specialists who believe > that> > > you can indeed herx off of mag. The reason being that it helps > your> > > body do what it should, it functions better. Other then this,

I > > have> > > never read of any negative side effects expected from magnesium> > > other then the runs. Maybe you have, but in this case maybe it > > isn't> > > a negative reaction, but actually a herx. Proof otherwise???> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

I was here a year ago Penny telling you the very same thing. You

didn't believe it then, you don't believe it now, and what makes you

think another 6-12 months will give it credibility then?

Now we come to whether or not I ever really had those symptoms in

the first place? Whether or not I was ever that sick actually? Are

we going to stoop that low, just to prove I am wrong? This is a tiny

board. I have been on boards with 1000s and they have seen before

and after pictures of me, but yah I guess I could have rigged that

too. If you see this as merely one up manship, then I don't know

what to tell you, other then sorry for you. Just because you think

my story is new, doesn't mean it is. This exact same stuff is all

over the net, for about 4 1/2 years now. You want to wait another 6-

12 months, so wait, no skin off my nose.

Herxing on my say alone, funny.

What has worked for me may not work for everyone, I have stated that

too, but you likely missed it, none of the treatments thus far get

the same results, we are all different. The bugs go where they want,

we don't get to piock what combo of bugs we have. BUT if what I have

done works for 100 other people, then it is worth sharing in my

estmation if it could help them out of their hell hole. Just because

you don't like what has happened or should I say the way it has

happened doesn't mean it didn't happen and others aren't listening.

They may have experienced the same thing. I already know people are

afraid of saying the same has happened to them. You questioning the

severity of my illness, doesn't bother me, but it does bother

others, they just stop posting. That isn't really the result we want.

> > > > Since then, I have read that there are specialists who

believe

> > that

> > > > you can indeed herx off of mag. The reason being that it

helps

> > your

> > > > body do what it should, it functions better. Other then

this,

> I

> > > have

> > > > never read of any negative side effects expected from

magnesium

> > > > other then the runs. Maybe you have, but in this case maybe

it

> > > isn't

> > > > a negative reaction, but actually a herx. Proof otherwise???

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Well, hold the phones, Jelly. You more than misquoted me, you also misunderstood me. What's ridiculous and dangerous is every reaction being attributed to "herxing". As well as the idea that some people might accept your experience as proof that low dose therapy is a cure for our illness. I'm not saying that doctors aren't allowed to try it with informed patients who understand the risks. But most docs using low dose mino are treating symptoms like the pain of RA, not the horrible symptoms that the many in our community are experiencing. One "doc" who isn't really even a doc, who claims his low dose abx treatment will cure practically every disease on the planet and has "nearly reversed" all his symptoms just like you, makes me ask, what were his symptoms in the first place? During the time he claimed to be so deathly ill, he was running

a company, involved in several law suits, writing numerous papers and trying to get them published, setting up his own "peer reviewed" journal (hah!), travelling around the country, advocating for his so-called "research foundation" and sitting at his computer 24 hours a day single handedly trying to control what the world thinks or says about him. I have to seriously wonder how sick he was to be able to pull all that off. And here's another area where you're wrong. There are not "thousands of docs" who will say you are "herxing". The vast majority won't have a clue what's going on with you, or why you'd be taking such a low dose to begin with. It's okay if you don't want to have faith in "mainstream medicine". But that's no justification to believe in witchcraft or quackery either. At least science makes an effort to look at things impartially. And that gives us at least something a

little bit more solid to go on, rather than simply being influenced by someone's passion, when his/her motives are unclear. penny jellybelly92008 <herranenb@...> wrote: I haven't got much faith anymore in mainstream medicine. Why, for the same reason most of us have lost faith. So when you show me what "they" think about how ABX work on certain organisms, it doesn't carry much weight. Especially when my body is telling me something else is happening. Mainstream medicine has not gotten

me well, it is those who think outside the known parameters that are getting well and getting people well.Penny, said to me that what I am telling people is dangerous. It could make us all look like a bunch of whackos (not a quote) if we all went in asking for low dose Mino. Well, surprise, there are many docs out there already doing it. Besides, what is often hammered here sounds pretty wacko to the majority. Throw Tony's staph agenda at the mainstream docs and most will just laugh at him. So who really cares what mainstream medicine has to say in general, at least Tony is thinking outside of their box, and may actually be on to something, as many of us may be. What you have showed me has a few flaws in what I am specifically looking for. First off, I am not talking about just any organism or your typical bacteria. I want to know what happens to Lyme and Mycoplasma. They are different, almost scarey

smart, particularly Lyme. Second, most tests are done in a petre dish, which can't even begin to compare with what might happen in the human body. To say, put the bacteria on the plate, add 200 mags of Mino, and then yup, it killed it. Add, 50 mgs to another dish, well it killed some of it, is not what I am looking for.What happens when you put that 50 mag dose into the human body. Do other factors come into play? Does this 50 mags work better or does it make it worse or is it exactly the same. Apparently that info is not out there, and that will just have to be ok for now. Not your fault. That is what I was asking for though, tried to make that clear, but everyone just keeps coming back to you can't be herxing because the petre test shows it isn't pssoible.I wasn't looking for anyone to back what I perceive as a herx, because from all I read, even what Carole posted yesterday, this is what is happening to

me. There are 1000's upon 1000's who will say I am herxing and this will include many in the medical profession. Then I have a couple of people here telling me it is impossible. You need more then an observation (that's all I have for now, was here looking for supporting evidence), and I need more then opinions, I already have plenty of my own. All I was able to give was my experience and was looking for a WHY. It's not out there, so OK. > > > Since then, I have read that there are specialists who believe > that> > > you can indeed herx off of mag. The reason being that it helps > your> > > body do what it should, it functions better. Other then this, I > > have> > > never read of any negative side effects expected from magnesium> > > other then the runs. Maybe you have, but in this case maybe it > > isn't> > > a negative reaction, but actually a herx. Proof otherwise???> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Sigh....read it again Penny, I said thousands, MANY of them docs. I

had my experience long before this other " doc " came up with the

idea. I think it is rather funny that he is tking so much credit for

this, when so many others were already doing it.

Witchcraft and quackery, come on, we ae smarter then that. Let's

stop, OK?

- In infections , Penny Houle

<pennyhoule@...> wrote:

>

> Well, hold the phones, Jelly. You more than misquoted me, you also

misunderstood me.

>

> What's ridiculous and dangerous is every reaction being

attributed to " herxing " . As well as the idea that some people might

accept your experience as proof that low dose therapy is a cure for

our illness. I'm not saying that doctors aren't allowed to try it

with informed patients who understand the risks. But most docs using

low dose mino are treating symptoms like the pain of RA, not the

horrible symptoms that the many in our community are experiencing.

>

> One " doc " who isn't really even a doc, who claims his low dose

abx treatment will cure practically every disease on the planet and

has " nearly reversed " all his symptoms just like you, makes me ask,

what were his symptoms in the first place? During the time he

claimed to be so deathly ill, he was running a company, involved in

several law suits, writing numerous papers and trying to get them

published, setting up his own " peer reviewed " journal (hah!),

travelling around the country, advocating for his so-

called " research foundation " and sitting at his computer 24 hours a

day single handedly trying to control what the world thinks or says

about him. I have to seriously wonder how sick he was to be able to

pull all that off.

>

> And here's another area where you're wrong. There are

not " thousands of docs " who will say you are " herxing " . The vast

majority won't have a clue what's going on with you, or why you'd be

taking such a low dose to begin with.

>

> It's okay if you don't want to have faith in " mainstream

medicine " . But that's no justification to believe in witchcraft or

quackery either. At least science makes an effort to look at things

impartially. And that gives us at least something a little bit more

solid to go on, rather than simply being influenced by someone's

passion, when his/her motives are unclear.

>

> penny

>

>

> jellybelly92008 <herranenb@...> wrote:

> I haven't got much faith anymore in mainstream medicine.

Why, for

> the same reason most of us have lost faith. So when you show me

> what " they " think about how ABX work on certain organisms, it

> doesn't carry much weight. Especially when my body is telling me

> something else is happening. Mainstream medicine has not gotten me

> well, it is those who think outside the known parameters that are

> getting well and getting people well.

>

> Penny, said to me that what I am telling people is dangerous. It

> could make us all look like a bunch of whackos (not a quote) if we

> all went in asking for low dose Mino. Well, surprise, there are

many

> docs out there already doing it. Besides, what is often hammered

> here sounds pretty wacko to the majority. Throw Tony's staph

agenda

> at the mainstream docs and most will just laugh at him. So who

> really cares what mainstream medicine has to say in general, at

> least Tony is thinking outside of their box, and may actually be

on

> to something, as many of us may be.

>

> What you have showed me has a few flaws in what I am specifically

> looking for. First off, I am not talking about just any organism

or

> your typical bacteria. I want to know what happens to Lyme and

> Mycoplasma. They are different, almost scarey smart, particularly

> Lyme. Second, most tests are done in a petre dish, which can't

even

> begin to compare with what might happen in the human body. To say,

> put the bacteria on the plate, add 200 mags of Mino, and then yup,

> it killed it. Add, 50 mgs to another dish, well it killed some of

> it, is not what I am looking for.

>

> What happens when you put that 50 mag dose into the human body. Do

> other factors come into play? Does this 50 mags work better or

does

> it make it worse or is it exactly the same. Apparently that info

is

> not out there, and that will just have to be ok for now. Not your

> fault. That is what I was asking for though, tried to make that

> clear, but everyone just keeps coming back to you can't be herxing

> because the petre test shows it isn't pssoible.

>

> I wasn't looking for anyone to back what I perceive as a herx,

> because from all I read, even what Carole posted yesterday, this

is

> what is happening to me. There are 1000's upon 1000's who will say

I

> am herxing and this will include many in the medical profession.

> Then I have a couple of people here telling me it is impossible.

You

> need more then an observation (that's all I have for now, was here

> looking for supporting evidence), and I need more then opinions, I

> already have plenty of my own.

>

> All I was able to give was my experience and was looking for a

WHY.

> It's not out there, so OK.

>

>

> > > > Since then, I have read that there are specialists who

believe

> > that

> > > > you can indeed herx off of mag. The reason being that it

helps

> > your

> > > > body do what it should, it functions better. Other then

this,

> I

> > > have

> > > > never read of any negative side effects expected from

magnesium

> > > > other then the runs. Maybe you have, but in this case maybe

it

> > > isn't

> > > > a negative reaction, but actually a herx. Proof otherwise???

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You are such a pain.

I beleieve you heart muscle is infected and everytime you mini dose

the mino actually stimulates the bugs.You'll possably find that many

people can do the mino about 50% and won't stimulate there bacteria

due to the bacterial genetics not being a set that go off and start

the bacteria multiplying.

You also make a very strong case for the mp group for them to be

having a remarkable recovery, yet this is not the case IN MY

READINGS.

Your blood pressure may give you the tip on how your hearts

travelling.

> > > > Since then, I have read that there are specialists who

believe

> > that

> > > > you can indeed herx off of mag. The reason being that it

helps

> > your

> > > > body do what it should, it functions better. Other then

this,

> I

> > > have

> > > > never read of any negative side effects expected from

magnesium

> > > > other then the runs. Maybe you have, but in this case maybe

it

> > > isn't

> > > > a negative reaction, but actually a herx. Proof otherwise???

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, Jelly, I'm no more convinced now than I was then, because I remember a lot of stuff you've said, much of which doesn't add up, giving me very good reason to suspect its validity. You like to argue, period. It's a waste of time. I said come back in 6 to 12 months because I was hoping you'd move on to another forum and argue with someone else about something less risky. I'm not interested in a pissing contest. I'm interested in making sure people are helped, not harmed, by the stuff they read here. Otherwise, I wouldn't waste my time responding, and it's why I won't answer your private emails. The only reason I answer here is because I'm concerned about the safety of others. I think the majority of people here are concerned for others or they wouldn't so generously share their ideas and knowledge. Either join us with the right intention or move on. Please. pennyjellybelly92008 <herranenb@...> wrote: I was here a year ago Penny telling you the very same thing. You didn't believe it then, you don't believe it now, and what makes you think another 6-12 months will give it credibility then?Now we come to whether or not I ever really had those symptoms in the first place? Whether or not I was ever that sick actually? Are we going to stoop that low, just to prove I am wrong? This is a tiny board. I have been on boards with 1000s and they have seen before and after pictures of

me, but yah I guess I could have rigged that too. If you see this as merely one up manship, then I don't know what to tell you, other then sorry for you. Just because you think my story is new, doesn't mean it is. This exact same stuff is all over the net, for about 4 1/2 years now. You want to wait another 6-12 months, so wait, no skin off my nose.Herxing on my say alone, funny. What has worked for me may not work for everyone, I have stated that too, but you likely missed it, none of the treatments thus far get the same results, we are all different. The bugs go where they want, we don't get to piock what combo of bugs we have. BUT if what I have done works for 100 other people, then it is worth sharing in my estmation if it could help them out of their hell hole. Just because you don't like what has happened or should I say the way it has happened doesn't mean it didn't happen and others aren't listening.

They may have experienced the same thing. I already know people are afraid of saying the same has happened to them. You questioning the severity of my illness, doesn't bother me, but it does bother others, they just stop posting. That isn't really the result we want.> > > > Since then, I have read that there are specialists who believe > > that> > > > you can indeed herx off of mag. The reason being that it helps > > your> > > > body do what it should, it functions better. Other then this, > I > > > have> > > > never read of any negative side effects expected

from magnesium> > > > other then the runs. Maybe you have, but in this case maybe it > > > isn't> > > > a negative reaction, but actually a herx. Proof otherwise???> > > >> > >> >>