Re: What causes Jarisch-Herxheimer reactions ?

[Guest guest]

Sorry youve had such wavy results with abx. Youre smart to be

sceptical of the herx concepts out there; theres no shortage of herx

BS.

The the spectrum of concievable models for your experience is pretty

broad and I guess many of those models are not very evaluable. Hence

I would consider going empirical - reading a (whole) lot of patient

reports and seeing how many report long-term imrpovement (or lack

thereof) after sustained dis-improvement in early months.

> Here are some points made in the article which seem significant to

me :

>

> · JH-R is a passing worsening of symptoms after an adequate

> dose of an appropriate antibiotic. It consists of a sudden rise

followed

> by a gradual fall in body temperature, a transient increase

followed by

> a more profound drop in blood pressure and worsening of

constitutional

> symptoms (can be life-threatening).

> If there is no drop in blood pressure, can it still be JRH ?

These may be the classic observations in syphilis and sepsis, but to

me it seems very reasonable that inflammation due to antigen release

caused by abx might not necessarily conform to this.

For one thing, reactions that dont change the above-listed

objectively measurable values dont attract much scientific attention

in the first place, because they cant be studied rigorously. For

another, chronic idiopathic diseases have many interesting

differences from syphilis and sepsis and the disease pathways may be

different, hence it might make sense that the herx would be a lil

different.

> And my questions :

>

> If the cytokine-storm explanation is correct, can it explain why

someone

> would experience severe symptoms for months on end to antibiotics ?

Whether its endotoxin (LPS) or instead specific protein antigens

that are at work, it seems like if one is herxing the pool of

antigen has got to be progressively depleted. Something should

change. However, its perhaps possible that there could be a very

slow cleanup of killed organisms - say, because they are inside

cells. Thus one might have a sustained increase in activation of the

TLR, lectin, and TCR receptors that bind bacterial molecules and

cause inflammation.

I dont have any strong support for that model (but see below a

phenomenon that may bear on this, or not). Its just a hypothesis.

Empirically, I believe at least a few successful abx users have

reported fairly long periods of initial exacerbation. But I havent

paid much attention to this, not having had that problem myself. (My

problem was that I never herxed at all, and many claim, mistakenly

IMO, that this predicts poor treatment response.)

Lots of patient reports can be read at places like lymenet, cpnhelp,

roadback, rheumatic.org, etc. Unfortunately alot of people have

highly speculative theories about their experience which probably

impair the quality of their observation/reporting.

> What about claims that JHR is caused by toxins released by dying

> organisms? This seems like one of those explanations which we can

> readily visualize, those masses of dying organisms causing a

temporary

> flare, while en route we are getting well. Very seductive

reasoning but

> is it accurate?

Well... maybe no one has proved it, but it makes molecular sense. It

does make sense that drug-killed organisms are going to be broken

down fairly rapidly, liberating their molecules. This may be the

weak point. In leprosy, dead organisms are very resiliant. After 99%

of the organisms are killed, it takes a YEAR for the count of dead

cells to go down ten-fold in lepromatous leprosy. This is probably

why lesions sometimes dont heal until after the (quite long) therapy

is already over. It must be because they are intracellular and/or

because they have a robust architecture and/or because of the

mysterious immunologic abnormalities of the disease. In contrast, in

syphilis I think it may have been shown that penicillin treatment

causes rapid increase in phagocytosis of organisms. I may be

remembering wrong; its been a while since I read that one. Anyway,

the primary and secondary lesions of syphilis heal rather rapidly

with treatment, I believe, suggesting a rapid breakdown of the

organism and subsequent rapid resolution of inflammation. For

intracellular organisms breakdown might be less rapid.

As for the rest of the logical chain, its pretty solid - we know

that injecting mice with LPS or with protein antigens they are

immune to, will cause nasty symptoms. We know the receptors that

recognize those molecules, we know those receptors release

inflammatory cytokines upon activation, and we know that those

cytokines cause symptoms (treating hepatitis patients with injected

cytokines causes a CFS phenotype as a side effect, for example).

[Guest guest]

Oops, I misread and thought youd explicitly said that you personally

had had a multi-month " perma-herx. " I guess you didnt necessarily

imply that. Just wanted to clarify that in case of confusion.

> Sorry youve had such wavy results with abx. Youre smart to be

> sceptical of the herx concepts out there; theres no shortage of herx

> BS.

>

> The the spectrum of concievable models for your experience is pretty

> broad and I guess many of those models are not very evaluable. Hence

> I would consider going empirical - reading a (whole) lot of patient

> reports and seeing how many report long-term imrpovement (or lack

> thereof) after sustained dis-improvement in early months.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your response, . Yes, that is in fact what I meant to say. For almost 3 months, frequent days with either drops or consistently low bp, bad malaise, etc. I would back off on the minocycline for awhile, which sometimes helped, sometimes worsened my case. Finally stopped as I realised that what was most important was knowing what infections I would be fighting (thanks in particular to Penny's very strong arguments about testing here and on other lists) .

Have stopped the abx for over a month now (while waiting for further testing) and during recent worsening of my symptoms, I noticed also that my bp would be in the lowish range (95/65 or thereabouts) during those days. This would be consistent with the "cytokine storm" explanation for JH . I am curious to know if drops in bp or low bp are present with others who go through these types of reactions with infections, on abx or not.

I just don't know if I have enough "gumph" in me to be trying treatments that make me worse and there is just so much wishful thinking that I can allow myself to believe.

Carole

-- In infections , " " <usenethod@...> wrote:> Oops, I misread and thought youd explicitly said that you personally had had a multi-month >"perma-herx." I guess you didnt necessarily imply that. Just wanted to clarify that in case of >confusion. > > Sorry youve had such wavy results with abx. Youre smart to be sceptical of the herx concepts >out there; theres no shortage of herx BS.

[Guest guest]

> I am curious to know if drops in bp or low bp are present with

> others who go through these types of reactions with infections, on

abx

> or not.

I dont know whats considered low, but in '04 I hit 85/55, and I think

85/45, on my US$40 home meter several times. Thats low. Other times it

was pretty normal. I was on nothing but antidepressants that summer. I

took my bp about 100 times before becoming satisfied that it didnt

correlate with whether I was totally agonized at the moment or not.

Neither did my oral temp (usually subnormal) or blood glucose yield a

correlation. (Except during one single hypoglycemic episode I had.)

I know someone else, Jelly, who also reported some very low figures

while taking benicar, possibly very high dose benicar. But I dont know

how her bp was without benicar, which is an anti-hypertensive agent. I

think she was alredy 90% recovered at that time.

My sympathies for your dilemma, which doesnt sound very fun. I'm

curious have you returned to baseline during your month off abx?

[Guest guest]

For about 2 weeks, had overall improvement and bp back up to around 110/75, which is way high for me (and usually correlates with feeling better!). Then this past week, more symptoms (low-grade fever, aches, weakness) accompanied by lower bp (lingers around 90-100/60-70).

BTW, I have been diagnosed with neurally mediated hypotension, with inconsistent tilt-table results and have had a couple of fainting spells.

Thanks for the sympathy, !

Carole

> I am curious to know if drops in bp or low bp are present with others who go through these types of reactions with infections, on abx or not." I dont know whats considered low, but in '04 I hit 85/55, and I think 85/45, on my US$40 home meter several times. " "My sympathies for your dilemma, which doesnt sound very fun. I'm curious have you returned to baseline during your month off abx?"

[Guest guest]

Hi Carol, low & high BP is a feature of CFS , I haven't a satisfactory explanation as to why the extremes, you would think we all should experience one or the other.My BP is on the high side. I am at the moment looking at the role of Potassium http://www.oralchelation.com/ingred/blank7.htm It may play a part.

Herx, is the most over used word in our world of Chronic infection , The principle of herxing is that ABx's mass kill our pathogens & the resulting toxins from dead microbes poison us ..not an allergic reaction but direct poisoning ..Now clearly that situation is self limiting . If we had an infectious load enough to fuel months /years of herxing then its questionable that we could function at all ,in fact we wouldn't survive such an insult .Feeling worse when taking antibiotics has many reasons Read wishful thinking for Herx effect ..IMO of course ..

-----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of carolesierpienSent: 29 May 2006 22:09infections Subject: [infections] Re: What causes Jarisch-Herxheimer reactions ?

Thanks for your response, . Yes, that is in fact what I meant to say. For almost 3 months, frequent days with either drops or consistently low bp, bad malaise, etc. I would back off on the minocycline for awhile, which sometimes helped, sometimes worsened my case. Finally stopped as I realised that what was most important was knowing what infections I would be fighting (thanks in particular to Penny's very strong arguments about testing here and on other lists) .

Have stopped the abx for over a month now (while waiting for further testing) and during recent worsening of my symptoms, I noticed also that my bp would be in the lowish range (95/65 or thereabouts) during those days. This would be consistent with the "cytokine storm" explanation for JH . I am curious to know if drops in bp or low bp are present with others who go through these types of reactions with infections, on abx or not.

I just don't know if I have enough "gumph" in me to be trying treatments that make me worse and there is just so much wishful thinking that I can allow myself to believe.

Carole

-- In infections , " " <usenethod@...> wrote:> Oops, I misread and thought youd explicitly said that you personally had had a multi-month >"perma-herx." I guess you didnt necessarily imply that. Just wanted to clarify that in case of >confusion. > > Sorry youve had such wavy results with abx. Youre smart to be sceptical of the herx concepts >out there; theres no shortage of herx BS.

[Guest guest]

My blood pressure was often in the 80/50s range prior to benicar and is often still in those ranges after benicar. No noticeable bp changes for me with different treatments. penny <usenethod@...> wrote: > I am curious to know if drops in bp or low bp are present with> others who go through these types of reactions with infections, on abx> or not.I dont know whats considered low, but in '04 I hit 85/55, and I think 85/45, on my US$40 home meter several times. Thats low. Other times it was pretty normal. I was on nothing but antidepressants that summer. I took my bp about 100 times before becoming satisfied that it didnt correlate with whether I was totally agonized at the moment or not. Neither did my oral temp

(usually subnormal) or blood glucose yield a correlation. (Except during one single hypoglycemic episode I had.)I know someone else, Jelly, who also reported some very low figures while taking benicar, possibly very high dose benicar. But I dont know how her bp was without benicar, which is an anti-hypertensive agent. I think she was alredy 90% recovered at that time.My sympathies for your dilemma, which doesnt sound very fun. I'm curious have you returned to baseline during your month off abx?

[Guest guest]

CArol

Were all interested in getting better. I can't see how foolish

people with foolish protocols think you can harm the body by

thrashing you to an inch of your life for a year and were supposed

not to suffer any residual damage.I explained myself clearly on the

herxheimer angle frequently on the unmentionable regime- I stated

that if you had a baseline red cell count after experienciung this

crappy BS you'd find your red blood cells damaged so your counts

would go down. The first person that looked found this to be exactly

true.The other spastic angle is that you harm your already fragile

circulation you can't have acid like substances constantly running

around your body it will take it's toll and possably start turning

you into a statue.The microcirculation suffers enough of a knock let

alone bring one on constantly to satisfy a mid last century theory-

if a scientist is talking molecular scientific stuff and throws out

a german spastics idea of what may be occuring as part of his

molecular science, that person better go back to the drawing board

IMO.

There's a rebound problem I find with quinolones- african kids that

suffered meningitis outbreaks have been left with some pretty

strange arthritic complaints at 12 years of age from this group of

drugs.I feel it kills a lot of bugs quickly but when the bugs pick

up the resistant traits they come back at you 100 miles per hour.

Also these drugs are very poor bone penetrators which makes those

tough deep down bugs a bad rebound to get.I just can't really see

where this group of drugs best fits in therapies but I wouldn't

trust them on there own- they are no penicillins.You'll also notice

Bleu had cipro and loved it, but he also did it alongside

clarithromyacin.

tony

>

>

> Hello,

>

>

>

> I am pretty new to the group, mostly a lurker as I have no real

> scientific knowledge or understanding that will help others (just a

> hungry mind!).

>

>

>

> I wanted to understand what causes Jarisch-Herxheimer reactions,

> especially since my doctor had been trying antibiotic treatments

to see

> if it will improve my CFS/ME condition (no active infection has

been

> found, but tests have not been as thorough as I would like). I

tried

> Cipro and saw improvement for a few weeks, then a slide back down

(along

> with many new joint aches!). Then came Minocylcine, which gave me

severe

> reactions after a few days, pronounced drops in blood pressure,

> increased malaise, weakness, etc. After 2 months of Mino, I

stopped as I

> await further testing.

>

>

>

> I searched the Web for scientific studies on JH and was amazed that

> little has really been published on its physiological causes or its

> process. I did find the following article published in 1992 in the

> Journal of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy by E. : " New

> insights into the pathophysiology of the Jarisch-Herxheimer

reaction " :

> http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/29/6/613

> <http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/29/6/613>

>

>

>

> Here are some points made in the article which seem significant to

me :

>

> · JH-R is a passing worsening of symptoms after an adequate

> dose of an appropriate antibiotic. It consists of a sudden rise

followed

> by a gradual fall in body temperature, a transient increase

followed by

> a more profound drop in blood pressure and worsening of

constitutional

> symptoms (can be life-threatening).

>

> · The mediators causing the reaction have not yet been

clearly

> identified.

>

> · In one study with syphilitic patients, JHR was noted in

the

> absence of endotoxins (which had been thought to mediate JHR) :

other

> arguments are also given against the endotoxin explanation.

>

> · Similarities are seen between JRH and the results of

> administering Tumor Necrosis Factor (TNF) to humans. The author

> hypothesises that it is the orchestrated release of cytokines that

cause

> the immune, physiologic and metabolic effects of infection.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> And my questions :

>

> If the cytokine-storm explanation is correct, can it explain why

someone

> would experience severe symptoms for months on end to antibiotics ?

>

>

>

> If there is no drop in blood pressure, can it still be JRH ?

>

>

>

> What about claims that JHR is caused by toxins released by dying

> organisms? This seems like one of those explanations which we can

> readily visualize, those masses of dying organisms causing a

temporary

> flare, while en route we are getting well. Very seductive

reasoning but

> is it accurate?

>

>

>

> Carole

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony,

I am glad you wrote this. I have also heard

the Lyme docs state that quinolones can be amazing. However, I would suspect

that the strange arthritic pains of the African children are NOT rebounding

infections, but the rather permanent damage from the quinolones. The

documentation of this reality is quite extensive now. I certainly am one small

example. The pain and damage is completely different from any symptom prior to

the quinolones.

I am now finding relief by taking massive

doses of magnesium taurinate, which Rich V recommended to me, and drinking

Recuperation. My hunch is those African kids are malnourished and their magnesium

levels are depleted by infection and poor diet. They would be sitting ducks for

tendon damage. What is really scary is that quinolones can cause permanent CNS

damage. Are we looking at a massive surge in mental illness with no clue where

it is coming from?

a

There's a rebound problem I find with quinolones- african kids that

suffered meningitis outbreaks have been left with some pretty

strange arthritic complaints at 12 years of age from this group of

drugs.I feel it kills a lot of bugs quickly but when the bugs pick

up the resistant traits they come back at you 100 miles per hour.

Also these drugs are very poor bone penetrators which makes those

tough deep down bugs a bad rebound to get.I just can't really see

where this group of drugs best fits in therapies but I wouldn't

trust them on there own- they are no penicillins.You'll also notice

Bleu had cipro and loved it, but he also did it alongside

clarithromyacin.

tony

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your response, Tony. Boy, do I regret now not having chosen

medecine in college (or biochemistry), at least I would be able to wade

through all this complicated science and make (hopefully) intelligent

choices.

I am convinced I am fighting infections, but the trial and error

approach is too risky, given the side effects from Cipro and Mino. Next

step, getting tested. Dr. De Meirleir will test for mycoplasmas, HHV6.

Need also to see if there is a " tough " bacterial infection, am waiting

to produce a " good " (sputum) specimen to bring to the lab. My family

doctor does not seem to think a nasal swab is necessary. Wish I had more

gumption when it comes to standing up to doctors!

Carole

>

> CArol. Were all interested in getting better. I can't see how foolish

> people with foolish protocols think you can harm the body by

> thrashing you to an inch of your life for a year and were supposed

> not to suffer any residual damage.I explained myself clearly on the

> herxheimer angle frequently on the unmentionable regime- I stated

> that if you had a baseline red cell count after experienciung this

> crappy BS you'd find your red blood cells damaged so your counts

> would go down. The first person that looked found this to be exactly

> true.The other spastic angle is that you harm your already fragile

> circulation you can't have acid like substances constantly running

> around your body it will take it's toll and possably start turning

> you into a statue.The microcirculation suffers enough of a knock let

> alone bring one on constantly to satisfy a mid last century theory-

> if a scientist is talking molecular scientific stuff and throws out

> a german spastics idea of what may be occuring as part of his

> molecular science, that person better go back to the drawing board

> IMO.

> There's a rebound problem I find with quinolones- african kids that

> suffered meningitis outbreaks have been left with some pretty

> strange arthritic complaints at 12 years of age from this group of

> drugs.I feel it kills a lot of bugs quickly but when the bugs pick

> up the resistant traits they come back at you 100 miles per hour.

> Also these drugs are very poor bone penetrators which makes those

> tough deep down bugs a bad rebound to get.I just can't really see

> where this group of drugs best fits in therapies but I wouldn't

> trust them on there own- they are no penicillins.You'll also notice

> Bleu had cipro and loved it, but he also did it alongside

> clarithromyacin.

> tony

[Guest guest]

someone I know who claimed ligimant damage from quinalones, had a

complete recovery from the damage after about a year.

bleu

On 30 May 2006, at 19:02, a Carnes wrote:

> Hi Tony,

> I am glad you wrote this. I have also heard the Lyme docs state that

> quinolones can be amazing. However, I would suspect that the strange

> arthritic pains of the African children are NOT rebounding infections,

> but the rather permanent damage from the quinolones. The documentation

> of this reality is quite extensive now. I certainly am one small

> example. The pain and damage is completely different from any symptom

> prior to the quinolones.

> I am now finding relief by taking massive doses of magnesium

> taurinate, which Rich V recommended to me, and drinking Recuperation.

> My hunch is those African kids are malnourished and their magnesium

> levels are depleted by infection and poor diet. They would be sitting

> ducks for tendon damage. What is really scary is that quinolones can

> cause permanent CNS damage. Are we looking at a massive surge in

> mental illness with no clue where it is coming from?

> a

>  

>

> There's a rebound problem I find with quinolones- african kids that

> suffered meningitis outbreaks have been left with some pretty

> strange arthritic complaints at 12 years of age from this group of

> drugs.I feel it kills a lot of bugs quickly but when the bugs pick

> up the resistant traits they come back at you 100 miles per hour.

> Also these drugs are very poor bone penetrators which makes those

> tough deep down bugs a bad rebound to get.I just can't really see

> where this group of drugs best fits in therapies but I wouldn't

> trust them on there own- they are no penicillins.You'll also notice

> Bleu had cipro and loved it, but he also did it alongside

> clarithromyacin.

> tony

>

>

>  

>  

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I hear various examples. I only wish I

had recovered in a year. Not happening.

a

someone I know who

claimed ligimant damage from quinalones, had a complete recovery from the

damage after about a year.

bleu

On 30 May 2006, at 19:02, a Carnes

wrote:

Hi

Tony,

I

am glad you wrote this. I have also heard the Lyme docs state that quinolones

can be amazing. However, I would suspect that the strange arthritic pains of

the African children are NOT rebounding infections, but the rather permanent

damage from the quinolones. The documentation of this reality is quite

extensive now. I certainly am one small example. The pain and damage is

completely different from any symptom prior to the quinolones.

I

am now finding relief by taking massive doses of magnesium taurinate, which

Rich V recommended to me, and drinking Recuperation. My hunch is those African

kids are malnourished and their magnesium levels are depleted by infection and

poor diet. They would be sitting ducks for tendon damage. What is really scary

is that quinolones can cause permanent CNS damage. Are we looking at a massive

surge in mental illness with no clue where it is coming from?

a

There's a rebound

problem I find with quinolones- african kids that

suffered

meningitis outbreaks have been left with some pretty

strange

arthritic complaints at 12 years of age from this group of

drugs.I

feel it kills a lot of bugs quickly but when the bugs pick

up

the resistant traits they come back at you 100 miles per hour.

Also

these drugs are very poor bone penetrators which makes those

tough

deep down bugs a bad rebound to get.I just can't really see

where

this group of drugs best fits in therapies but I wouldn't

trust

them on there own- they are no penicillins.You'll also notice

Bleu

had cipro and loved it, but he also did it alongside

clarithromyacin.

tony

[Guest guest]

PAula

My rebound was brain inflammation. You've got to understand that

when you reach your middle age anything you do can accelerate your

age related ilnesses possably even by 10 year increments.What

medical focus is missing IMO is that infections cause damage and the

damage creates heaps of scar tissue. The infections that rebound

from a battered body full of scar tissue- I'm sure would be horrific

in many and as you can observe very minor discomfort in others.So

basically I wouldn't place the blame at the feet of the quinolones I

would want to manage my infections a whole lot smarter. I actually

used quinolones (cipro) way after my first HUGE DISASTER with this

drug and could not believe the impact it had on clearing the

infections which no other drug went near(prostate region)

>

> Hi Tony,

>

> I am glad you wrote this. I have also heard the Lyme docs state

that

> quinolones can be amazing. However, I would suspect that the

strange

> arthritic pains of the African children are NOT rebounding

infections, but

> the rather permanent damage from the quinolones. The documentation

of this

> reality is quite extensive now. I certainly am one small example.

The pain

> and damage is completely different from any symptom prior to the

quinolones.

>

> I am now finding relief by taking massive doses of magnesium

taurinate,

> which Rich V recommended to me, and drinking Recuperation. My

hunch is those

> African kids are malnourished and their magnesium levels are

depleted by

> infection and poor diet. They would be sitting ducks for tendon

damage. What

> is really scary is that quinolones can cause permanent CNS damage.

Are we

> looking at a massive surge in mental illness with no clue where it

is coming

> from?

>

> a

>

>

>

>

> There's a rebound problem I find with quinolones- african kids

that

> suffered meningitis outbreaks have been left with some pretty

> strange arthritic complaints at 12 years of age from this group of

> drugs.I feel it kills a lot of bugs quickly but when the bugs pick

> up the resistant traits they come back at you 100 miles per hour.

> Also these drugs are very poor bone penetrators which makes those

> tough deep down bugs a bad rebound to get.I just can't really see

> where this group of drugs best fits in therapies but I wouldn't

> trust them on there own- they are no penicillins.You'll also

notice

> Bleu had cipro and loved it, but he also did it alongside

> clarithromyacin.

> tony

>

[Guest guest]

Carol

There's this huge ind=ustry selling dodgy science in disease IMO. I

wouldn't bother getting a mycoplasma or viral panel; done cause they

just don't have any real answers or treatments- as Penny discoivered

this group of doctors falls into the CHARLATAN category of medicine.

Often they'll run 5000 dollar panels of tests which ain't truly

aimed at diagnosing the patient rather a more sinister version of

USA capitalism. They are virtually seeeing hundreds of patients a

week making millions of dollars and just slapping the patienst with

supplements.

> >

> > CArol. Were all interested in getting better. I can't see how

foolish

> > people with foolish protocols think you can harm the body by

> > thrashing you to an inch of your life for a year and were

supposed

> > not to suffer any residual damage.I explained myself clearly on

the

> > herxheimer angle frequently on the unmentionable regime- I stated

> > that if you had a baseline red cell count after experienciung

this

> > crappy BS you'd find your red blood cells damaged so your counts

> > would go down. The first person that looked found this to be

exactly

> > true.The other spastic angle is that you harm your already

fragile

> > circulation you can't have acid like substances constantly

running

> > around your body it will take it's toll and possably start

turning

> > you into a statue.The microcirculation suffers enough of a knock

let

> > alone bring one on constantly to satisfy a mid last century

theory-

> > if a scientist is talking molecular scientific stuff and throws

out

> > a german spastics idea of what may be occuring as part of his

> > molecular science, that person better go back to the drawing

board

> > IMO.

> > There's a rebound problem I find with quinolones- african kids

that

> > suffered meningitis outbreaks have been left with some pretty

> > strange arthritic complaints at 12 years of age from this group

of

> > drugs.I feel it kills a lot of bugs quickly but when the bugs

pick

> > up the resistant traits they come back at you 100 miles per hour.

> > Also these drugs are very poor bone penetrators which makes those

> > tough deep down bugs a bad rebound to get.I just can't really see

> > where this group of drugs best fits in therapies but I wouldn't

> > trust them on there own- they are no penicillins.You'll also

notice

> > Bleu had cipro and loved it, but he also did it alongside

> > clarithromyacin.

> > tony

>

[Guest guest]

'Thanks for your response, Tony. Boy, do I regret now not having

chosen

> medecine in college (or biochemistry'

Carol

I sort of wished I paid more attention in my english classes.

I think the quinolones and tendon damage issues that people are

trying to portray sits at the heart of age related diseases-I can

gurarntee that in my own case doing sports and running around the

park your ankles and shin regions and also your carpal tunnel

regions are 90% of the way there the tendons in these regions are

already possably carrying large numbers of bugs.IMO.

tony

> >

> > CArol. Were all interested in getting better. I can't see how

foolish

> > people with foolish protocols think you can harm the body by

> > thrashing you to an inch of your life for a year and were

supposed

> > not to suffer any residual damage.I explained myself clearly on

the

> > herxheimer angle frequently on the unmentionable regime- I stated

> > that if you had a baseline red cell count after experienciung

this

> > crappy BS you'd find your red blood cells damaged so your counts

> > would go down. The first person that looked found this to be

exactly

> > true.The other spastic angle is that you harm your already

fragile

> > circulation you can't have acid like substances constantly

running

> > around your body it will take it's toll and possably start

turning

> > you into a statue.The microcirculation suffers enough of a knock

let

> > alone bring one on constantly to satisfy a mid last century

theory-

> > if a scientist is talking molecular scientific stuff and throws

out

> > a german spastics idea of what may be occuring as part of his

> > molecular science, that person better go back to the drawing

board

> > IMO.

> > There's a rebound problem I find with quinolones- african kids

that

> > suffered meningitis outbreaks have been left with some pretty

> > strange arthritic complaints at 12 years of age from this group

of

> > drugs.I feel it kills a lot of bugs quickly but when the bugs

pick

> > up the resistant traits they come back at you 100 miles per hour.

> > Also these drugs are very poor bone penetrators which makes those

> > tough deep down bugs a bad rebound to get.I just can't really see

> > where this group of drugs best fits in therapies but I wouldn't

> > trust them on there own- they are no penicillins.You'll also

notice

> > Bleu had cipro and loved it, but he also did it alongside

> > clarithromyacin.

> > tony

>

[Guest guest]

Tony,

Why would you think tendon damage from

quinolones was age related? The warnings on the box are for tendon ruptures

which occur mostly in young athletes because they RUN. Old people like me just

get pain and damage, but not ruptures. It has nothing to do with age and

everything to do with the nature of quinolones.

a

PAula

My rebound was brain inflammation. You've got to understand that

when you reach your middle age anything you do can accelerate your

age related ilnesses possably even by 10 year increments.What

medical focus is missing IMO is that infections cause damage and the

damage creates heaps of scar tissue. The infections that rebound

from a battered body full of scar tissue- I'm sure would be horrific

in many and as you can observe very minor discomfort in others.So

basically I wouldn't place the blame at the feet of the quinolones I

would want to manage my infections a whole lot smarter. I actually

used quinolones (cipro) way after my first HUGE DISASTER with this

drug and could not believe the impact it had on clearing the

infections which no other drug went near(prostate region)

>

> Hi Tony,

>

> I am glad you wrote this. I have also heard the Lyme docs state

that

> quinolones can be amazing. However, I would suspect that the

strange

> arthritic pains of the African children are NOT rebounding

infections, but

> the rather permanent damage from the quinolones. The documentation

of this

> reality is quite extensive now. I certainly am one small example.

The pain

> and damage is completely different from any symptom prior to the

quinolones.

>

> I am now finding relief by taking massive doses of magnesium

taurinate,

> which Rich V recommended to me, and drinking Recuperation. My

hunch is those

> African kids are malnourished and their magnesium levels are

depleted by

> infection and poor diet. They would be sitting ducks for tendon

damage. What

> is really scary is that quinolones can cause permanent CNS damage.

Are we

> looking at a massive surge in mental illness with no clue where it

is coming

> from?

>

> a

>

>

>

>

> There's a rebound problem I find with quinolones- african kids

that

> suffered meningitis outbreaks have been left with some pretty

> strange arthritic complaints at 12 years of age from this group of

> drugs.I feel it kills a lot of bugs quickly but when the bugs pick

> up the resistant traits they come back at you 100 miles per hour.

> Also these drugs are very poor bone penetrators which makes those

> tough deep down bugs a bad rebound to get.I just can't really see

> where this group of drugs best fits in therapies but I wouldn't

> trust them on there own- they are no penicillins.You'll also

notice

> Bleu had cipro and loved it, but he also did it alongside

> clarithromyacin.

> tony

>

[Guest guest]

my gut feeling is that as the bacteria seem able to penetrate the

everywhere, when they get fried by Cipro that does leave damed tissue.

in tendons, it manifests as the pain that is known about, but I doubt

that this is not related to bacteria in the first place.

bleu

On 31 May 2006, at 07:16, a Carnes wrote:

>

> Tony,

> Why would you think tendon damage from quinolones was age related? The

> warnings on the box are for tendon ruptures which occur mostly in

> young athletes because they RUN. Old people like me just get pain and

> damage, but not ruptures. It has nothing to do with age and everything

> to do with the nature of quinolones.

>  

> a

>  

>  

>

> PAula

> My rebound was brain inflammation. You've got to understand that

> when you reach your middle age  anything you do can accelerate your

> age related ilnesses possably even by 10 year increments.What

> medical focus is missing IMO is that infections cause damage and the

> damage creates heaps of scar tissue. The infections that rebound

> from a battered body full of scar tissue- I'm sure would be horrific

> in many and as you can observe very minor discomfort in others.So

> basically I wouldn't place the blame at the feet of the quinolones I

> would want to manage my infections a whole lot smarter. I actually

> used quinolones (cipro) way after my first HUGE DISASTER with this

> drug and could not believe the impact it had on clearing the

> infections which no other drug went near(prostate region)

>

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Hi Tony,

> >

> > I am glad you wrote this. I have also heard the Lyme docs state

> that

> > quinolones can be amazing. However, I would suspect that the

> strange

> > arthritic pains of the African children are NOT rebounding

> infections, but

> > the rather permanent damage from the quinolones. The documentation

> of this

> > reality is quite extensive now. I certainly am one small example.

> The pain

> > and damage is completely different from any symptom prior to the

> quinolones.

> >

> > I am now finding relief by taking massive doses of magnesium

> taurinate,

> > which Rich V recommended to me, and drinking Recuperation. My

> hunch is those

> > African kids are malnourished and their magnesium levels are

> depleted by

> > infection and poor diet. They would be sitting ducks for tendon

> damage. What

> > is really scary is that quinolones can cause permanent CNS damage.

> Are we

> > looking at a massive surge in mental illness with no clue where it

> is coming

> > from?

> >

> > a

> >

> > 

> >

> >

> > There's a rebound problem I find with quinolones- african kids

> that

> > suffered meningitis outbreaks have been left with some pretty

> > strange arthritic complaints at 12 years of age from this group of

> > drugs.I feel it kills a lot of bugs quickly but when the bugs pick

> > up the resistant traits they come back at you 100 miles per hour.

> > Also these drugs are very poor bone penetrators which makes those

> > tough deep down bugs a bad rebound to get.I just can't really see

> > where this group of drugs best fits in therapies but I wouldn't

> > trust them on there own- they are no penicillins.You'll also

> notice

> > Bleu had cipro and loved it, but he also did it alongside

> > clarithromyacin.

> > tony

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

OOOOoooohhhh a

I sort of think the subsequent rebound superinfection is the

catalyst for all sorts of problems.I personally didn't have a

problem with encephalitis while doing the quinoilone it is something

that occured a week to 10 days later.I also don't really consieder

what the medical establishemnt considers possable side effects from

a drug as a true indication of what the drug does but more what is

underlying in the patient, when push comes to shove you get REAL

ANSWERS IMO.

I had a friend that ttok cipro and her blood I and R thickness

measurement went balistic- her blood thinned that dramatiucally from

cipro it went from a 1 or 2 to an 18 which saw her bleeding from the

kidneys and a very danegrous region. She is also constantly

monitoring her I and R so it's kind of amazing how cipro did what it

did.Also a friends father had a UTI that just wouldn't clear with

major drug rotations yet sure enough the cipro did the trick he was

telling me about his fathers plight and how amazing some new drug

worked- I said don't get excited yet it's a couple of months down

the track that you gotta wait and see what rebounds.

> >

> > Hi Tony,

> >

> > I am glad you wrote this. I have also heard the Lyme docs state

> that

> > quinolones can be amazing. However, I would suspect that the

> strange

> > arthritic pains of the African children are NOT rebounding

> infections, but

> > the rather permanent damage from the quinolones. The

documentation

> of this

> > reality is quite extensive now. I certainly am one small

example.

> The pain

> > and damage is completely different from any symptom prior to the

> quinolones.

> >

> > I am now finding relief by taking massive doses of magnesium

> taurinate,

> > which Rich V recommended to me, and drinking Recuperation. My

> hunch is those

> > African kids are malnourished and their magnesium levels are

> depleted by

> > infection and poor diet. They would be sitting ducks for tendon

> damage. What

> > is really scary is that quinolones can cause permanent CNS

damage.

> Are we

> > looking at a massive surge in mental illness with no clue where

it

> is coming

> > from?

> >

> > a

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > There's a rebound problem I find with quinolones- african kids

> that

> > suffered meningitis outbreaks have been left with some pretty

> > strange arthritic complaints at 12 years of age from this group

of

> > drugs.I feel it kills a lot of bugs quickly but when the bugs

pick

> > up the resistant traits they come back at you 100 miles per

hour.

> > Also these drugs are very poor bone penetrators which makes

those

> > tough deep down bugs a bad rebound to get.I just can't really

see

> > where this group of drugs best fits in therapies but I wouldn't

> > trust them on there own- they are no penicillins.You'll also

> notice

> > Bleu had cipro and loved it, but he also did it alongside

> > clarithromyacin.

> > tony

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think there's a piano accordion effect on your cardiovascular

system with cipro due to it's super huge blood thinning ability and

it's capability of killing heaps of bugs at the atomic end of

protein and bacterial gathering abilities.I just don't like using

simplicity I prefer to gather first hand events of people before I

buy what is being preached - Sorry a it's just the way thinks

stack up often.

tony

\

> >

> > Hi Tony,

> >

> > I am glad you wrote this. I have also heard the Lyme docs state

> that

> > quinolones can be amazing. However, I would suspect that the

> strange

> > arthritic pains of the African children are NOT rebounding

> infections, but

> > the rather permanent damage from the quinolones. The

documentation

> of this

> > reality is quite extensive now. I certainly am one small

example.

> The pain

> > and damage is completely different from any symptom prior to the

> quinolones.

> >

> > I am now finding relief by taking massive doses of magnesium

> taurinate,

> > which Rich V recommended to me, and drinking Recuperation. My

> hunch is those

> > African kids are malnourished and their magnesium levels are

> depleted by

> > infection and poor diet. They would be sitting ducks for tendon

> damage. What

> > is really scary is that quinolones can cause permanent CNS

damage.

> Are we

> > looking at a massive surge in mental illness with no clue where

it

> is coming

> > from?

> >

> > a

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > There's a rebound problem I find with quinolones- african kids

> that

> > suffered meningitis outbreaks have been left with some pretty

> > strange arthritic complaints at 12 years of age from this group

of

> > drugs.I feel it kills a lot of bugs quickly but when the bugs

pick

> > up the resistant traits they come back at you 100 miles per

hour.

> > Also these drugs are very poor bone penetrators which makes

those

> > tough deep down bugs a bad rebound to get.I just can't really

see

> > where this group of drugs best fits in therapies but I wouldn't

> > trust them on there own- they are no penicillins.You'll also

> notice

> > Bleu had cipro and loved it, but he also did it alongside

> > clarithromyacin.

> > tony

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You remind me of a bad experience, Tony. Not only did I get charged thousands of dollars by one of the so-called experts who treats mycoplasm infections, he did in-house x-rays of me from the neck down. Since I tested negative for mycoplasma he diagnosed me with "poor quality sleep" and mailed me expensive supplements for fibromyalgia & poor sleep (that I didn't want) and charged them to my visa. Another doctor later told me his x-rays were not only excessive and of very poor quality but completely uncessary! Not to mention, my infection''s in my head! penny dumbaussie2000 <dumbaussie2000@...> wrote: CarolThere's this huge ind=ustry selling dodgy science in disease IMO. I wouldn't bother getting a mycoplasma or viral

panel; done cause they just don't have any real answers or treatments- as Penny discoivered this group of doctors falls into the CHARLATAN category of medicine.Often they'll run 5000 dollar panels of tests which ain't truly aimed at diagnosing the patient rather a more sinister version of USA capitalism. They are virtually seeeing hundreds of patients a week making millions of dollars and just slapping the patienst with supplements.> >> > CArol. Were all interested in getting better. I can't see how foolish> > people with foolish protocols think you can harm the body by> > thrashing you to an inch of your life for a year and were supposed> > not to suffer any residual damage.I explained myself clearly on the> > herxheimer angle frequently

on the unmentionable regime- I stated> > that if you had a baseline red cell count after experienciung this> > crappy BS you'd find your red blood cells damaged so your counts> > would go down. The first person that looked found this to be exactly> > true.The other spastic angle is that you harm your already fragile> > circulation you can't have acid like substances constantly running> > around your body it will take it's toll and possably start turning> > you into a statue.The microcirculation suffers enough of a knock let> > alone bring one on constantly to satisfy a mid last century theory-> > if a scientist is talking molecular scientific stuff and throws out> > a german spastics idea of what may be occuring as part of his> > molecular science, that person better go back to the drawing board> > IMO.> >

There's a rebound problem I find with quinolones- african kids that> > suffered meningitis outbreaks have been left with some pretty> > strange arthritic complaints at 12 years of age from this group of> > drugs.I feel it kills a lot of bugs quickly but when the bugs pick> > up the resistant traits they come back at you 100 miles per hour.> > Also these drugs are very poor bone penetrators which makes those> > tough deep down bugs a bad rebound to get.I just can't really see> > where this group of drugs best fits in therapies but I wouldn't> > trust them on there own- they are no penicillins.You'll also notice> > Bleu had cipro and loved it, but he also did it alongside> > clarithromyacin.> > tony>

[Guest guest]

On May 31, 2006, at 10:09 AM, Penny Houle wrote:

> You remind me of a bad experience, Tony.

Penny, that's not nice! (Just kidding -- out of context!)

- Kate

[Guest guest]

lol!Kate <KateDunlay@...> wrote: On May 31, 2006, at 10:09 AM, Penny Houle wrote:> You remind me of a bad experience, Tony.Penny, that's not nice! (Just kidding -- out of context!)- Kate

[Guest guest]

Penny, boy, would I like to know who this

was off list.

PJ7@...

You remind me of a bad experience, Tony. Not only did I get charged

thousands of dollars by one of the so-called experts who treats mycoplasm

infections, he did in-house x-rays of me from the neck down. Since I tested

negative for mycoplasma he diagnosed me with " poor quality

sleep " and mailed me expensive supplements for fibromyalgia

& poor sleep (that I didn't want) and charged them to my visa. Another

doctor later told me his x-rays were not only excessive and of very poor

quality but completely uncessary! Not to mention, my infection''s in my head!

penny

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony,

I certainly understand your not wanting to

take just one person’s experience. I joined a list for folks with quinolone

damage. The list was huge and the complaints all matched. Most on the list were

no more than 40 yrs old. Did you notice that the first post on this was about

teenage kids in Africa who had strange

arthritic pain after being given Cipro?

I can send you documentation on this also

if you are interested.

a

I think there's a piano

accordion effect on your cardiovascular

system with cipro due to it's super huge blood thinning ability and

it's capability of killing heaps of bugs at the atomic end of

protein and bacterial gathering abilities.I just don't like using

simplicity I prefer to gather first hand events of people before I

buy what is being preached - Sorry a it's just the way thinks

stack up often.

tony

\

> >

> > Hi Tony,

> >

> > I am glad you wrote this. I have also heard the Lyme docs state

> that

> > quinolones can be amazing. However, I would suspect that the

> strange

> > arthritic pains of the African children are NOT rebounding

> infections, but

> > the rather permanent damage from the quinolones. The

documentation

> of this

> > reality is quite extensive now. I certainly am one small

example.

> The pain

> > and damage is completely different from any symptom prior to the

> quinolones.

> >

> > I am now finding relief by taking massive doses of magnesium

> taurinate,

> > which Rich V recommended to me, and drinking Recuperation. My

> hunch is those

> > African kids are malnourished and their magnesium levels are

> depleted by

> > infection and poor diet. They would be sitting ducks for tendon

> damage. What

> > is really scary is that quinolones can cause permanent CNS

damage.

> Are we

> > looking at a massive surge in mental illness with no clue where

it

> is coming

> > from?

> >

> > a

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > There's a rebound problem I find with quinolones- african kids

> that

> > suffered meningitis outbreaks have been left with some pretty

> > strange arthritic complaints at 12 years of age from this group

of

> > drugs.I feel it kills a lot of bugs quickly but when the bugs

pick

> > up the resistant traits they come back at you 100 miles per

hour.

> > Also these drugs are very poor bone penetrators which makes

those

> > tough deep down bugs a bad rebound to get.I just can't really

see

> > where this group of drugs best fits in therapies but I wouldn't

> > trust them on there own- they are no penicillins.You'll also

> notice

> > Bleu had cipro and loved it, but he also did it alongside

> > clarithromyacin.

> > tony

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I also joined that list, and I was not convinced that what many

complained about was not specifically due to side effects of cipro,

more convincing was the damage by the bacteria, poss. when it died.

I am here only bc cipro saved my life.

bleu

On 31 May 2006, at 20:03, a Carnes wrote:

>

> Hi Tony,

> I certainly understand your not wanting to take just one person’s

> experience. I joined a list for folks with quinolone damage. The list

> was huge and the complaints all matched. Most on the list were no more

> than 40 yrs old. Did you notice that the first post on this was about

> teenage kids in Africa who had strange arthritic pain after being

> given Cipro?

>  

> I can send you documentation on this also if you are interested.

>  

> a

>  

>  

>

> I think there's a piano accordion effect on your cardiovascular

> system with cipro due to it's super huge blood thinning ability and

> it's capability of killing heaps of bugs at the atomic end of

> protein and bacterial gathering abilities.I just don't like using

> simplicity I prefer to gather first hand events of people before I

> buy what is being preached - Sorry a it's just the way thinks

> stack up often.

> tony

> \

>

>

>

>

> > >

> > > Hi Tony,

> > >

> > > I am glad you wrote this. I have also heard the Lyme docs state

> > that

> > > quinolones can be amazing. However, I would suspect that the

> > strange

> > > arthritic pains of the African children are NOT rebounding

> > infections, but

> > > the rather permanent damage from the quinolones. The

> documentation

> > of this

> > > reality is quite extensive now. I certainly am one small

> example.

> > The pain

> > > and damage is completely different from any symptom prior to the

> > quinolones.

> > >

> > > I am now finding relief by taking massive doses of magnesium

> > taurinate,

> > > which Rich V recommended to me, and drinking Recuperation. My

> > hunch is those

> > > African kids are malnourished and their magnesium levels are

> > depleted by

> > > infection and poor diet. They would be sitting ducks for tendon

> > damage. What

> > > is really scary is that quinolones can cause permanent CNS

> damage.

> > Are we

> > > looking at a massive surge in mental illness with no clue where

> it

> > is coming

> > > from?

> > >

> > > a

> > >

> > > 

> > >

> > >

> > > There's a rebound problem I find with quinolones- african kids

> > that

> > > suffered meningitis outbreaks have been left with some pretty

> > > strange arthritic complaints at 12 years of age from this group

> of

> > > drugs.I feel it kills a lot of bugs quickly but when the bugs

> pick

> > > up the resistant traits they come back at you 100 miles per

> hour.

> > > Also these drugs are very poor bone penetrators which makes

> those

> > > tough deep down bugs a bad rebound to get.I just can't really

> see

> > > where this group of drugs best fits in therapies but I wouldn't

> > > trust them on there own- they are no penicillins.You'll also

> > notice

> > > Bleu had cipro and loved it, but he also did it alongside

> > > clarithromyacin.

> > > tony

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >