Guest guest Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 hail Bleu, Just last week I was reading this: Reactive arthritis Toivanen, Auli. RC933 .R36 1988 C. 1 and being amazed that some of these 1980s authors were so open-minded about possible bacterial persistence. Many of the authors were Finnish. That might explain it. I generally find continental Europeans a bit more sympathetic to infectious explanations. The idea that the bacteria might be persisting in a non-joint location, elsewhere in the body, is found in that book, and I had thought this was a new idea. I think that book may have some info on C. trach persisting in the joint, but I am uncertain. I know I saw a negative PCR search for C. trach circa 1990... then around 95, Nanagara and Schumacher came out with their positive findings of C. trach persistence, which I beleive were well-confirmed. I think those may have been major shapers of resurgence of the persistence idea. But, even today I think many authors tend to be skeptical of the value of abx. Strangely, it seems investigators typically trial 2-drug combinations at most, even tho they must know of the existence of primary MAC infection and its quite hesitant repsonse even to 3+ year regimes of 4+ drugs. Lots of positive and negative trials here and on the subsequent 2 pages: http://tinyurl.com/3meqb Many of these regimes are just plain weak. I am particularly scornful of the low-ish dose monotherapies with tetracyclines, which dont seem to cut it in most diseases. These 2 are notable for showing a late-developing effect of treatment, where there was no significant immediate benefit: Yli-Kerttula T, Luukkainen R, Yli-Kerttula U, Mottonen T, Hakola M, Korpela M, Sanila M, Uksila J, Toivanen A. Related Articles, Links Effect of a three month course of ciprofloxacin on the late prognosis of reactive arthritis. Ann Rheum Dis. 2003 Sep;62(9):880-4. PMID: 12922963 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Yli-Kerttula T, Luukkainen R, Yli-Kerttula U, Mottonen T, Hakola M, Korpela M, Sanila M, Parviainen J, Uksila J, Vainionpaa R, Toivanen A. Effect of a three month course of ciprofloxacin on the outcome of reactive arthritis. Ann Rheum Dis. 2000 Jul;59(7):565-70. PMID: 10873968 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 It should be no surprise to us that many conditions have an infectious cause..Heres a interesting study , asthma responding to antibiotics , well, well and to boot abx's implicated in contracting asthma in the first place ...well, why is that I wonder ..could it be the abx'x swing the balance in the gut to favour fungi, the fungi/yeast degrade conditions in the gut allowing naturally occurring nano gut bacteria to escape, what's the term ..are yes,the colonic milieu ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4899602.stm [infections] Re: Cause of ReA hail Bleu, Just last week I was reading this: Reactive arthritis Toivanen, Auli. RC933 .R36 1988 C. 1 and being amazed that some of these 1980s authors were so open-minded about possible bacterial persistence. Many of the authors were Finnish. That might explain it. I generally find continental Europeans a bit more sympathetic to infectious explanations. The idea that the bacteria might be persisting in a non-joint location, elsewhere in the body, is found in that book, and I had thought this was a new idea. I think that book may have some info on C. trach persisting in the joint, but I am uncertain. I know I saw a negative PCR search for C. trach circa 1990... then around 95, Nanagara and Schumacher came out with their positive findings of C. trach persistence, which I beleive were well-confirmed. I think those may have been major shapers of resurgence of the persistence idea. But, even today I think many authors tend to be skeptical of the value of abx. Strangely, it seems investigators typically trial 2-drug combinations at most, even tho they must know of the existence of primary MAC infection and its quite hesitant repsonse even to 3+ year regimes of 4+ drugs. Lots of positive and negative trials here and on the subsequent 2 pages: http://tinyurl.com/3meqb Many of these regimes are just plain weak. I am particularly scornful of the low-ish dose monotherapies with tetracyclines, which dont seem to cut it in most diseases. These 2 are notable for showing a late-developing effect of treatment, where there was no significant immediate benefit: Yli-Kerttula T, Luukkainen R, Yli-Kerttula U, Mottonen T, Hakola M, Korpela M, Sanila M, Uksila J, Toivanen A. Related Articles, Links Effect of a three month course of ciprofloxacin on the late prognosis of reactive arthritis. Ann Rheum Dis. 2003 Sep;62(9):880-4. PMID: 12922963 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Yli-Kerttula T, Luukkainen R, Yli-Kerttula U, Mottonen T, Hakola M, Korpela M, Sanila M, Parviainen J, Uksila J, Vainionpaa R, Toivanen A. Effect of a three month course of ciprofloxacin on the outcome of reactive arthritis. Ann Rheum Dis. 2000 Jul;59(7):565-70. PMID: 10873968 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 In my cause the attack was/is most profoundly dual, bacteria and fungii, and no matter how many abx I did I still was half cocked. Only now 7 years in, am i finding releif with the long overdue use of antifungals. My gut feeling is that I did poorly on benicar as a result of a high fungi load. On 13 Apr 2006, at 18:11, Jaep wrote: > > > It should be no surprise to us that many conditions have an infectious > cause..Heres a interesting study , asthma responding to antibiotics , > well, > well and to boot abx's implicated in contracting asthma in the first > place > ..well, why is that I wonder ..could it be the abx'x swing the > balance in > the gut to favour fungi, the fungi/yeast degrade conditions in the gut > allowing naturally occurring nano gut bacteria to escape, what's the > term > .are yes,the colonic milieu ... > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4899602.stm > > [infections] Re: Cause of ReA > > > hail Bleu, > > Just last week I was reading this: > > Reactive arthritis > Toivanen, Auli. > RC933 .R36 1988 C. 1 > > and being amazed that some of these 1980s authors were so open-minded > about possible bacterial persistence. Many of the authors were > Finnish. > That might explain it. I generally find continental Europeans a bit > more sympathetic to infectious explanations. The idea that the > bacteria > might be persisting in a non-joint location, elsewhere in the body, is > found in that book, and I had thought this was a new idea. > > I think that book may have some info on C. trach persisting in the > joint, but I am uncertain. I know I saw a negative PCR search for C. > trach circa 1990... then around 95, Nanagara and Schumacher came out > with their positive findings of C. trach persistence, which I beleive > were well-confirmed. I think those may have been major shapers of > resurgence of the persistence idea. > > But, even today I think many authors tend to be skeptical of the value > of abx. Strangely, it seems investigators typically trial 2-drug > combinations at most, even tho they must know of the existence of > primary MAC infection and its quite hesitant repsonse even to 3+ year > regimes of 4+ drugs. Lots of positive and negative trials here and on > the subsequent 2 pages: > > http://tinyurl.com/3meqb > > Many of these regimes are just plain weak. I am particularly scornful > of the low-ish dose monotherapies with tetracyclines, which dont seem > to cut it in most diseases. > > These 2 are notable for showing a late-developing effect of treatment, > where there was no significant immediate benefit: > > Yli-Kerttula T, Luukkainen R, Yli-Kerttula U, Mottonen T, Hakola M, > Korpela M, Sanila M, Uksila J, Toivanen A. Related Articles, Links > Effect of a three month course of ciprofloxacin on the late prognosis > of reactive arthritis. > Ann Rheum Dis. 2003 Sep;62(9):880-4. > PMID: 12922963 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > > Yli-Kerttula T, Luukkainen R, Yli-Kerttula U, Mottonen T, Hakola M, > Korpela M, Sanila M, Parviainen J, Uksila J, Vainionpaa R, Toivanen A. > Effect of a three month course of ciprofloxacin on the outcome of > reactive arthritis. > Ann Rheum Dis. 2000 Jul;59(7):565-70. > PMID: 10873968 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006  I would agree with that , fungi are amonst the group of pathogens than can promote & use inflammation to avoid the attentions of the IS.. See these Pubmed extracts Bacterial strategies for overcoming host innate and adaptive immune responses.,….12407412, Resident bacterial flora and immune system…….12408438 This ones interesting quoting fungi as the cause of sick building syndrome. Inflammatory responses in mice after intratracheal instillation of spores …..11181112, Surfactant protein A down-regulates proinflammatory cytokine production evoked by Candida albicans …..10510392, Points of control in inflammation…..12490957 and Candida albicans stimulates local expression of leukocyte adhesion molecules and cytokines in vivo……12134235 -----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of ColourbleuSent: 13 April 2006 17:36infections Subject: Re: [infections] Re: Cause of ReAIn my cause the attack was/is most profoundly dual, bacteria and fungii, and no matter how many abx I did I still was half cocked. Only now 7 years in, am i finding releif with the long overdue use of antifungals. My gut feeling is that I did poorly on benicar as a result of a high fungi load. On 13 Apr 2006, at 18:11, Jaep wrote: It should be no surprise to us that many conditions have an infectiouscause..Heres a interesting study , asthma responding to antibiotics , well,well and to boot abx's implicated in contracting asthma in the first place..well, why is that I wonder ..could it be the abx'x swing the balance inthe gut to favour fungi, the fungi/yeast degrade conditions in the gutallowing naturally occurring nano gut bacteria to escape, what's the term.are yes,the colonic milieu ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4899602.stm-----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Sent: 13 April 2006 16:44infections Subject: [infections] Re: Cause of ReAhail Bleu,Just last week I was reading this:Reactive arthritisToivanen, Auli.RC933 .R36 1988 C. 1and being amazed that some of these 1980s authors were so open-mindedabout possible bacterial persistence. Many of the authors were Finnish.That might explain it. I generally find continental Europeans a bitmore sympathetic to infectious explanations. The idea that the bacteriamight be persisting in a non-joint location, elsewhere in the body, isfound in that book, and I had thought this was a new idea.I think that book may have some info on C. trach persisting in thejoint, but I am uncertain. I know I saw a negative PCR search for C.trach circa 1990... then around 95, Nanagara and Schumacher came outwith their positive findings of C. trach persistence, which I beleivewere well-confirmed. I think those may have been major shapers ofresurgence of the persistence idea.But, even today I think many authors tend to be skeptical of the valueof abx. Strangely, it seems investigators typically trial 2-drugcombinations at most, even tho they must know of the existence ofprimary MAC infection and its quite hesitant repsonse even to 3+ yearregimes of 4+ drugs. Lots of positive and negative trials here and onthe subsequent 2 pages:http://tinyurl.com/3meqbMany of these regimes are just plain weak. I am particularly scornfulof the low-ish dose monotherapies with tetracyclines, which dont seemto cut it in most diseases.These 2 are notable for showing a late-developing effect of treatment,where there was no significant immediate benefit:Yli-Kerttula T, Luukkainen R, Yli-Kerttula U, Mottonen T, Hakola M,Korpela M, Sanila M, Uksila J, Toivanen A. Related Articles, LinksEffect of a three month course of ciprofloxacin on the late prognosisof reactive arthritis.Ann Rheum Dis. 2003 Sep;62(9):880-4.PMID: 12922963 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]Yli-Kerttula T, Luukkainen R, Yli-Kerttula U, Mottonen T, Hakola M,Korpela M, Sanila M, Parviainen J, Uksila J, Vainionpaa R, Toivanen A.Effect of a three month course of ciprofloxacin on the outcome ofreactive arthritis.Ann Rheum Dis. 2000 Jul;59(7):565-70.PMID: 10873968 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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