The asymptomatic people with Lyme

[Guest guest]

I am beginning to know quite a few people who are testing positive

for Lyme through conventional labs. This means of course, they're

ELISA positive AND either IgM or IgG CDC positive - and what's SoOoooo

interesting about this is that independant of their age, they seem to

respond to abx better than the people who have Lyme, but are not

seropositive.

Case #1 is the 9 yr. old nephew of a friend at work. SO far this

year they've found 5 engorged ticks in his scalp. They just can't

keep him from playing in the woods- they live in a wooded area. Now

probably not every tick is carrying Lyme, and the parents are not

testing every tick. He has gone thru two rounds of Meds (not sure

what his Doc gave him- maybe Amoxy)) after having a bullseye rash and

complaining of a " sore head " earlier this year. He responded

positively and is feeling fine - running around like a regular kid...

still getting bit as far as I know by ticks - still playing in the

woods.

Cas2 #2 is my brother in law on the Cape. He has made an appt with

Donta- who's an hr. away- but says he may not keep the appt. becuase

he's feeling great after his second round (2 30 day rounds) of Doxy.

His conventioal test was CDC positive.

Both Docs (conventional) seem to know somthing about Lyme- as each

told their patient they must have had Lyme before the bite that gave

them symptoms becuase they had Sooooo many antibodies against Lyme.

There are several other cases I know of- similiar in that they are

testing CDC positive and feeling quite fine only after a few abx (by

Lyme standards).

It does seem to me from these cases that Bb bacterial load does play

a part in whether one (with an intact and working immune system)

becomes symptomatic or not - and that in individuals (with probably

IgG) antibodies have a better chance of fighting it off.

(NOTE: I have told both case 1 and 2 that they should always suspect

lyme in the future if anything goes wrong- as they need to understand

that they HAVE LYME even though they're feeling OK)

Then there's the group we know well- the non responders to abx....

Of the WBs from them that I've seen, they have few if any IgG

antibodies.

SO I have a question for the WB tested positive for Lyme readers of

this list...

QUESTION:

Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more bands, not

counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx therapy.

Thanks,

Barb

[Guest guest]

I tested highly positive on Stonybrook's western blot 5 1/2 years ago

(when I got the bullseye) with both sky high elisa, and positive IgG

and IgM and did NOT respond well to antibiotics.

I'm beginning to think that it is the coinfections that play havoc.

If you just have lyme, not so bad. If you get babesia with it, bad.

I'm not sure if I " d test positive now (not acute) but I will say that

2 weeks of amoxy (for tooth--which is still problematic and I'm off

amoxy now) made my lyme symptoms start to improve markedly.

There is also wide strain variation depending on the part of the

state/neighborhood. I know a woman, she and hubby got HORRIFIC " lyme "

(lyme plus bartonella) on their property. Moved maybe half an hour

away to another part of New Jersey. Both neighbors on either side

have had uneventful lyme--cured easily. I'd say the strain in the new

neighborhood is much milder.

>

> I am beginning to know quite a few people who are testing positive

> for Lyme through conventional labs. This means of course, they're

> ELISA positive AND either IgM or IgG CDC positive - and what's

SoOoooo

> interesting about this is that independant of their age, they seem

to

> respond to abx better than the people who have Lyme, but are not

> seropositive.

>

> Case #1 is the 9 yr. old nephew of a friend at work. SO far this

> year they've found 5 engorged ticks in his scalp. They just can't

> keep him from playing in the woods- they live in a wooded area.

Now

> probably not every tick is carrying Lyme, and the parents are not

> testing every tick. He has gone thru two rounds of Meds (not sure

> what his Doc gave him- maybe Amoxy)) after having a bullseye rash

and

> complaining of a " sore head " earlier this year. He responded

> positively and is feeling fine - running around like a regular

kid...

> still getting bit as far as I know by ticks - still playing in the

> woods.

>

> Cas2 #2 is my brother in law on the Cape. He has made an appt with

> Donta- who's an hr. away- but says he may not keep the appt.

becuase

> he's feeling great after his second round (2 30 day rounds) of Doxy.

> His conventioal test was CDC positive.

>

> Both Docs (conventional) seem to know somthing about Lyme- as each

> told their patient they must have had Lyme before the bite that

gave

> them symptoms becuase they had Sooooo many antibodies against Lyme.

>

> There are several other cases I know of- similiar in that they are

> testing CDC positive and feeling quite fine only after a few abx

(by

> Lyme standards).

>

> It does seem to me from these cases that Bb bacterial load does

play

> a part in whether one (with an intact and working immune system)

> becomes symptomatic or not - and that in individuals (with probably

> IgG) antibodies have a better chance of fighting it off.

> (NOTE: I have told both case 1 and 2 that they should always

suspect

> lyme in the future if anything goes wrong- as they need to

understand

> that they HAVE LYME even though they're feeling OK)

>

>

> Then there's the group we know well- the non responders to abx....

> Of the WBs from them that I've seen, they have few if any IgG

> antibodies.

>

> SO I have a question for the WB tested positive for Lyme readers

of

> this list...

>

> QUESTION:

>

> Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more bands, not

> counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx therapy.

>

> Thanks,

> Barb

>

[Guest guest]

Since 1997 I have had almost every test positive IGG

and positive western blot IGG.Only once i had negative IGG

and IGm elisa and only once IGM+IGG positive.

I had one positive hole blood borrelia pcr 3 month after I took

1 month ceftriaxona(rocephin)

I am now very simptomatic after 1 year tetracicline+ hcq

but not so bad than before treatment.

I also had 2 of 3 positive brucella test but i don´t know

if still have brucella.

I think having IGG or IGM not mean to fight better borrelia.

I think is a question of removing toxins and this have some

relation with some hla subtypes and citocrome p450.

¿what do you think about this?

regards,

JC

>

> I am beginning to know quite a few people who are testing positive

> for Lyme through conventional labs. This means of course, they're

> ELISA positive AND either IgM or IgG CDC positive - and what's

SoOoooo

> interesting about this is that independant of their age, they seem

to

> respond to abx better than the people who have Lyme, but are not

> seropositive.

>

> Case #1 is the 9 yr. old nephew of a friend at work. SO far this

> year they've found 5 engorged ticks in his scalp. They just can't

> keep him from playing in the woods- they live in a wooded area. Now

> probably not every tick is carrying Lyme, and the parents are not

> testing every tick. He has gone thru two rounds of Meds (not sure

> what his Doc gave him- maybe Amoxy)) after having a bullseye rash

and

> complaining of a " sore head " earlier this year. He responded

> positively and is feeling fine - running around like a regular kid.

...

> still getting bit as far as I know by ticks - still playing in the

> woods.

>

> Cas2 #2 is my brother in law on the Cape. He has made an appt with

> Donta- who's an hr. away- but says he may not keep the appt. becuase

> he's feeling great after his second round (2 30 day rounds) of Doxy.

> His conventioal test was CDC positive.

>

> Both Docs (conventional) seem to know somthing about Lyme- as each

> told their patient they must have had Lyme before the bite that gave

> them symptoms becuase they had Sooooo many antibodies against Lyme.

>

> There are several other cases I know of- similiar in that they are

> testing CDC positive and feeling quite fine only after a few abx (by

> Lyme standards).

>

> It does seem to me from these cases that Bb bacterial load does

play

> a part in whether one (with an intact and working immune system)

> becomes symptomatic or not - and that in individuals (with probably

> IgG) antibodies have a better chance of fighting it off.

> (NOTE: I have told both case 1 and 2 that they should always

suspect

> lyme in the future if anything goes wrong- as they need to

understand

> that they HAVE LYME even though they're feeling OK)

>

>

> Then there's the group we know well- the non responders to abx....

> Of the WBs from them that I've seen, they have few if any IgG

> antibodies.

>

> SO I have a question for the WB tested positive for Lyme readers

of

> this list...

>

> QUESTION:

>

> Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more bands, not

> counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx therapy.

>

> Thanks,

> Barb

>

[Guest guest]

> QUESTION:

>

> Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more bands, not

> counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx therapy.

>

> Thanks,

> Barb

>

Igenex WB last Spring after being on Minocin 100 Mon-We-Fri for 2+

years (Antibiotic Protocol for RA).

IgG Bands +ve: 18 ++, 30 +++, 31 +/-, 34 +/-, 39 +/-, 41 ++, 45 +/-,

58 +, 66 +/-, 93 +/-.

Also had several IgM band +ve.

I am still symptomatic but better than I was.

Robyn

[Guest guest]

How can you separate the Lyme symptoms from the brucella symptoms??

I agrree that co-infections can complicate things.

Barb

> >

> > I am beginning to know quite a few people who are testing

positive

> > for Lyme through conventional labs. This means of course,

they're

> > ELISA positive AND either IgM or IgG CDC positive - and what's

> SoOoooo

> > interesting about this is that independant of their age, they

seem

> to

> > respond to abx better than the people who have Lyme, but are not

> > seropositive.

> >

> > Case #1 is the 9 yr. old nephew of a friend at work. SO far this

> > year they've found 5 engorged ticks in his scalp. They just

can't

> > keep him from playing in the woods- they live in a wooded area.

Now

> > probably not every tick is carrying Lyme, and the parents are not

> > testing every tick. He has gone thru two rounds of Meds (not

sure

> > what his Doc gave him- maybe Amoxy)) after having a bullseye rash

> and

> > complaining of a " sore head " earlier this year. He responded

> > positively and is feeling fine - running around like a regular

kid.

> ..

> > still getting bit as far as I know by ticks - still playing in

the

> > woods.

> >

> > Cas2 #2 is my brother in law on the Cape. He has made an appt

with

> > Donta- who's an hr. away- but says he may not keep the appt.

becuase

> > he's feeling great after his second round (2 30 day rounds) of

Doxy.

> > His conventioal test was CDC positive.

> >

> > Both Docs (conventional) seem to know somthing about Lyme- as

each

> > told their patient they must have had Lyme before the bite that

gave

> > them symptoms becuase they had Sooooo many antibodies against

Lyme.

> >

> > There are several other cases I know of- similiar in that they

are

> > testing CDC positive and feeling quite fine only after a few abx

(by

> > Lyme standards).

> >

> > It does seem to me from these cases that Bb bacterial load does

> play

> > a part in whether one (with an intact and working immune system)

> > becomes symptomatic or not - and that in individuals (with

probably

> > IgG) antibodies have a better chance of fighting it off.

> > (NOTE: I have told both case 1 and 2 that they should always

> suspect

> > lyme in the future if anything goes wrong- as they need to

> understand

> > that they HAVE LYME even though they're feeling OK)

> >

> >

> > Then there's the group we know well- the non responders to abx....

> > Of the WBs from them that I've seen, they have few if any IgG

> > antibodies.

> >

> > SO I have a question for the WB tested positive for Lyme

readers

> of

> > this list...

> >

> > QUESTION:

> >

> > Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more bands, not

> > counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx therapy.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Barb

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Your IgM was positive for more than 1 band? I guess I would expect

someone to be symtptomatic with an active IgM since they ccan spike

anytime Lyme gets somewhere the immune system can get to it.

Interesting-

yo IgG has the markers for late stage Lyme (18 and 93)

DO you have RA? ANy reason you're not doing higher abx doses?

And back to my wondering about robust IgG blots... I don't have any

concrete opinion - I was wondering how many symptomatic people we

have that are showing an IgG response (and I should have said WITHOUT

an IgM response)

Barb

>

>

> > QUESTION:

> >

> > Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more bands, not

> > counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx therapy.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Barb

> >

>

> Igenex WB last Spring after being on Minocin 100 Mon-We-Fri for 2+

> years (Antibiotic Protocol for RA).

>

> IgG Bands +ve: 18 ++, 30 +++, 31 +/-, 34 +/-, 39 +/-, 41 ++, 45 +/-,

> 58 +, 66 +/-, 93 +/-.

>

> Also had several IgM band +ve.

>

> I am still symptomatic but better than I was.

>

> Robyn

>

[Guest guest]

From what I know (which isn't detailed) of the work of Janet Weis and

others, the symptoms are very closely linked to your genetics in

highly specific ways, thus the inflammatory response really depends

on your genes as to how and where lyme symptoms manifest.

When they knocked out the inflammatory response in mice they got even

sicker though they didn't have the inflammatory symptoms.

So those without antibody response may indeed be sicker.

But some folks test positive and no symptoms--

Its a very complex bug as we know.

> >

> >

> > > QUESTION:

> > >

> > > Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more bands, not

> > > counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx therapy.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > > Barb

> > >

> >

> > Igenex WB last Spring after being on Minocin 100 Mon-We-Fri for

2+

> > years (Antibiotic Protocol for RA).

> >

> > IgG Bands +ve: 18 ++, 30 +++, 31 +/-, 34 +/-, 39 +/-, 41 ++, 45

+/-,

> > 58 +, 66 +/-, 93 +/-.

> >

> > Also had several IgM band +ve.

> >

> > I am still symptomatic but better than I was.

> >

> > Robyn

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Your IgM was positive for more than 1 band? I guess I would

expect

> someone to be symtptomatic with an active IgM since they ccan

spike

> anytime Lyme gets somewhere the immune system can get to it.

>

> Interesting-

> yo IgG has the markers for late stage Lyme (18 and 93)

>

> DO you have RA? ANy reason you're not doing higher abx doses?

>

> And back to my wondering about robust IgG blots... I don't have

any

> concrete opinion - I was wondering how many symptomatic people we

> have that are showing an IgG response (and I should have said

WITHOUT

> an IgM response)

>

> Barb

Hi Barb,

IgM results were 18 +/-, 30 +, 34 +/-, 39 +, 41 +++, 45 +/-, 58 ++,

+/-, 93 +.

I do have RA but also many other symptoms including neuro stuff. I

have attempted much higher doses and different

antibiotics/antifungals but am unable to cope with severe depressive

symptoms and marked pain increase (especially as I'm caring for sick

husband). Presently I am stable on Minocin 100 daily and seeing

small improvements. Am hoping to hit it harder in a couple of months.

I sure do appreciate your brain as mine is on slow right now.

Robyn

[Guest guest]

Jill

This whole thread is on antibody response and bands? You gotta get

your labs to stop bullshitting you guys with these useless tests.

The oraganism is the size of a freight train in

microbiology.Something that shows up clearly under fresh blood

microscopy should NOT BE EXPLORED ANY OTHER WAY, your all involved

in a crap shoot with Igenex and the other labs. The live cell

microscopy can monitor your bugs there response to certain

antimicrobials- juts the bells and whistles anyone needs to get on

the right track to healing.Why do all the roads lead knowhere with

the lyme preachers.Please change the way your getting diagnosed,

this thing is almost visable to the human eye under a magnifing

glass.You gotta get away from preaching the literature and get into

preaching the healing.

The other big thing is everyone that attaches strongly to lyme is

just ignoring the 20 other symptoms that are gnawing away at them.

> > >

> > >

> > > > QUESTION:

> > > >

> > > > Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more bands,

not

> > > > counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx therapy.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > Barb

> > > >

> > >

> > > Igenex WB last Spring after being on Minocin 100 Mon-We-Fri

for

> 2+

> > > years (Antibiotic Protocol for RA).

> > >

> > > IgG Bands +ve: 18 ++, 30 +++, 31 +/-, 34 +/-, 39 +/-, 41 ++,

45

> +/-,

> > > 58 +, 66 +/-, 93 +/-.

> > >

> > > Also had several IgM band +ve.

> > >

> > > I am still symptomatic but better than I was.

> > >

> > > Robyn

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'm trying to understand what you are saying, dumbaussie 2000. I haven't had the Igenex lyme test, but intended to do it soon. Should I not do it? What do you recommend?

Ann

-----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of dumbaussie2000Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 10:24 PMinfections Subject: [infections] Re: The asymptomatic people with LymeJillThis whole thread is on antibody response and bands? You gotta get your labs to stop bullshitting you guys with these useless tests. The oraganism is the size of a freight train in microbiology.Something that shows up clearly under fresh blood microscopy should NOT BE EXPLORED ANY OTHER WAY, your all involved in a crap shoot with Igenex and the other labs. The live cell microscopy can monitor your bugs there response to certain antimicrobials- juts the bells and whistles anyone needs to get on the right track to healing.Why do all the roads lead knowhere with the lyme preachers.Please change the way your getting diagnosed, this thing is almost visable to the human eye under a magnifing glass.You gotta get away from preaching the literature and get into preaching the healing.The other big thing is everyone that attaches strongly to lyme is just ignoring the 20 other symptoms that are gnawing away at them.> > >> > > > > > > QUESTION:> > > > > > > > Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more bands, not > > > > counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx therapy.> > > > > > > > Thanks,> > > > Barb> > > >> > > > > > Igenex WB last Spring after being on Minocin 100 Mon-We-Fri for > 2+ > > > years (Antibiotic Protocol for RA).> > > > > > IgG Bands +ve: 18 ++, 30 +++, 31 +/-, 34 +/-, 39 +/-, 41 ++, 45 > +/-,> > > 58 +, 66 +/-, 93 +/-.> > > > > > Also had several IgM band +ve.> > > > > > I am still symptomatic but better than I was.> > > > > > Robyn> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Tony I don't have all the answers, what I do believe is that healthy

people who are keepig relatively common bacteria such as strep and

staph in check can be completely derailed by certain strains of

borrelia and babesia in ticks, their immune systems downregulated,

and then their ability to fight common pathogens, including strep,

staph and fungi, become impaired. Its a cascade. There are other

causes of the cascade besides tickbites and we don't know all of them-

-genetics, environment, the particular strain of bug.

I was responding to Barb's query because in this case I think she is

perceiving a pattern that is not actually there--ie strong antibody

response, better response to antibiotics.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > QUESTION:

> > > > >

> > > > > Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more bands,

> not

> > > > > counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx therapy.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > Barb

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Igenex WB last Spring after being on Minocin 100 Mon-We-Fri

> for

> > 2+

> > > > years (Antibiotic Protocol for RA).

> > > >

> > > > IgG Bands +ve: 18 ++, 30 +++, 31 +/-, 34 +/-, 39 +/-, 41 ++,

> 45

> > +/-,

> > > > 58 +, 66 +/-, 93 +/-.

> > > >

> > > > Also had several IgM band +ve.

> > > >

> > > > I am still symptomatic but better than I was.

> > > >

> > > > Robyn

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

What microscope are you looking at. A Spirochete is very small and difficult to see with many stains. It is NOT large at all? My background is in Lab Science and Microbiology. What is yours? Prof. Carol

[Guest guest]

Jill

I found it absolutely fascinating that just after I wrote that post

I went and had a read at the experimental site. I keep harping you

about how important the basics of illness are and the other biggest

tickhead I knew 'paula' is starting to walk around the block again

after focusing strongly on hydration.I knew she had major problems

thru the legs- she keeps claiming are cipro tendon related-I didn't

buy that feeling the cipro in many stuns the bacteria and the follow

up growth is worse than the one you started out with.Cipro is also a

huge blood thinner a friend recently got her I and R to 18 by

accident by doing cipro, with thinneres it was only 3, to 18 is

UNBELIEVABLE.

So again regardless of how your reading it the basic prinicples of

medicine still apply.Remember every car accident victim is stuck

with an IV to avoid dehydration, I'm sure that if the patient

dehydrates his wounds don't heal from the bottom up instead you get

healing that's incomplete, possably similar to a cfs patient that

can't recover after exercise, your HEALING/REPAIRING BECOMES

COMPROMISED.

-- In infections , " jill1313 "

<jenbooks13@h...> wrote:

>

> Tony I don't have all the answers, what I do believe is that

healthy

> people who are keepig relatively common bacteria such as strep and

> staph in check can be completely derailed by certain strains of

> borrelia and babesia in ticks, their immune systems downregulated,

> and then their ability to fight common pathogens, including strep,

> staph and fungi, become impaired. Its a cascade. There are other

> causes of the cascade besides tickbites and we don't know all of

them-

> -genetics, environment, the particular strain of bug.

>

> I was responding to Barb's query because in this case I think she

is

> perceiving a pattern that is not actually there--ie strong

antibody

> response, better response to antibiotics.

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > QUESTION:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more

bands,

> > not

> > > > > > counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx

therapy.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > Barb

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Igenex WB last Spring after being on Minocin 100 Mon-We-

Fri

> > for

> > > 2+

> > > > > years (Antibiotic Protocol for RA).

> > > > >

> > > > > IgG Bands +ve: 18 ++, 30 +++, 31 +/-, 34 +/-, 39 +/-, 41

++,

> > 45

> > > +/-,

> > > > > 58 +, 66 +/-, 93 +/-.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also had several IgM band +ve.

> > > > >

> > > > > I am still symptomatic but better than I was.

> > > > >

> > > > > Robyn

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Tony:

I started the thread.

And looking at antibody responses is not bull crap thank you very

much (even though I do agree testing needs to be waaaaaaaaaaay

better.)

You can't ignore the fact that in Lyme anyway (and probabaly other

infections) the immune response plays a very very VERY important part-

if it did not then we'd all be on drug cocktails forever the way

AIDS patients are. And that's not my goal.

My personal feeling is that in the end, the immune system - when not

overwhelmed - will be the driving force in maintaining good health -

even if that means keeping lyme bacteria latent- the way herpes

simplex, and V Zoster is kept in kept in check.

So. Cut me some slack here.

Barb

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > QUESTION:

> > > > >

> > > > > Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more bands,

> not

> > > > > counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx therapy.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > Barb

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Igenex WB last Spring after being on Minocin 100 Mon-We-Fri

> for

> > 2+

> > > > years (Antibiotic Protocol for RA).

> > > >

> > > > IgG Bands +ve: 18 ++, 30 +++, 31 +/-, 34 +/-, 39 +/-, 41 ++,

> 45

> > +/-,

> > > > 58 +, 66 +/-, 93 +/-.

> > > >

> > > > Also had several IgM band +ve.

> > > >

> > > > I am still symptomatic but better than I was.

> > > >

> > > > Robyn

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

In order to form an opinion on something- there has to be enough data

to look and it has to be investigated. My query was just that -

so don't jump to conclusions about what I'm thinking - my opinion

isn't formed on this subject- I don't have enough data on this

subject to see a pattern (or not).

When ones wonders about something - the best problem solvers are the

ones that look at something from all angles.

That's what I'm doing - trying to see ...

Barb

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > QUESTION:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more

bands,

> > not

> > > > > > counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx

therapy.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > Barb

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Igenex WB last Spring after being on Minocin 100 Mon-We-Fri

> > for

> > > 2+

> > > > > years (Antibiotic Protocol for RA).

> > > > >

> > > > > IgG Bands +ve: 18 ++, 30 +++, 31 +/-, 34 +/-, 39 +/-, 41

++,

> > 45

> > > +/-,

> > > > > 58 +, 66 +/-, 93 +/-.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also had several IgM band +ve.

> > > > >

> > > > > I am still symptomatic but better than I was.

> > > > >

> > > > > Robyn

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You're right about many things. I agree about hydration. For those

folks feeling better on salt/c it may simply be because they end up

drinking so much water because they get thirsty--along with some

beneficial effects of salt, and vitamin C.

I also agree with your pionts a while back about dialysis. You could

clean the blood of toxins and feel temporarily well.

I hear through the grapevine that a lymie and his daughter did huge

doses of IV ascorbate for 4 days in a row for 2 weeks. ANd for two

weeks all their lyme symptoms went away. At those huge doses

ascorbate isn't VItamin C, its both a pro oxidant and an anti

oxidant. It'll mop up all the free radical/toxins.

It isn't a cure. It functions sort of like your dialysis. I guess it

could pull someone out of a " herx " tho.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > QUESTION:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more

> bands,

> > > not

> > > > > > > counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx

> therapy.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > > Barb

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Igenex WB last Spring after being on Minocin 100 Mon-We-

> Fri

> > > for

> > > > 2+

> > > > > > years (Antibiotic Protocol for RA).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > IgG Bands +ve: 18 ++, 30 +++, 31 +/-, 34 +/-, 39 +/-, 41

> ++,

> > > 45

> > > > +/-,

> > > > > > 58 +, 66 +/-, 93 +/-.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also had several IgM band +ve.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I am still symptomatic but better than I was.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Robyn

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Barb you're one of the smartest people on any of these lists. Check

out Janet Weis' work. It's not the immune system per say in many

cases. It's genetics--the inflammatory response--that then

disregulates the immune response. SHe is working with mice I believe?

Changing genes she can manipulate the symptoms of lyme, now, I have

not looked at the work, this is what a science writer told me.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > QUESTION:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more

bands,

> > not

> > > > > > counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx

therapy.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > Barb

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Igenex WB last Spring after being on Minocin 100 Mon-We-Fri

> > for

> > > 2+

> > > > > years (Antibiotic Protocol for RA).

> > > > >

> > > > > IgG Bands +ve: 18 ++, 30 +++, 31 +/-, 34 +/-, 39 +/-, 41

++,

> > 45

> > > +/-,

> > > > > 58 +, 66 +/-, 93 +/-.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also had several IgM band +ve.

> > > > >

> > > > > I am still symptomatic but better than I was.

> > > > >

> > > > > Robyn

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I am familiar with the genetics theory.

And I agree our genetics play a role in how maladies present in

certain people. IMO genetics is the umbrella over the immune system

and the P450 (metabolic) system.

AT present though, my main interest is how to kill, suppress or

otherwisw make these bugs remit (and genetics plays a role in this

end too) without massive collateral damage to the body.

Barb

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > QUESTION:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more

> bands,

> > > not

> > > > > > > counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx

> therapy.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > > Barb

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Igenex WB last Spring after being on Minocin 100 Mon-We-

Fri

> > > for

> > > > 2+

> > > > > > years (Antibiotic Protocol for RA).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > IgG Bands +ve: 18 ++, 30 +++, 31 +/-, 34 +/-, 39 +/-, 41

> ++,

> > > 45

> > > > +/-,

> > > > > > 58 +, 66 +/-, 93 +/-.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also had several IgM band +ve.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I am still symptomatic but better than I was.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Robyn

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Barb

I have no problem with what you study or scrutinise. I tend to view

these diseases as VERY INFORMATIVE and the patient that's ill has

all the bells and whistles to offer up of a sick person.My problem

lies with the way people/reserachers/doctors go about TRYING TO

DIAGNOSE. Anytime your organs are under pressure they fail miserably

and many smart doctors know this, why they are genrally lazy asses

abnd accept something just in/out of range as allright is beyond me.

Can you imagine they are trying time and time again to blame

genetics on the cfs group of ilnesses? How can people offer up that

trash when the family cat and dog of many develops autoimmune

disease.The other thrashed to death is the supplementing till the

cows come home angle.This is a TOXIC INDUCED EVENT toxins will

dehydrate and create scar tissue throughout your body, they will

play havoc with your microcirculation this is some of the CRUX OF

THE PROBLEM- pathogens aside.I mean the skeleton of many can no

longer support it's host- this is just scraping the surface of many

patients that need major spinal support.

I just think the value of not pursuing the CORE ISSUES and really

highlighting the mess- is crazy.We tend to ponder along as if

everything is absolutely identical to a healthy neighbour.

tony

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > QUESTION:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more

> bands,

> > > not

> > > > > > > counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx

> therapy.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > > Barb

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Igenex WB last Spring after being on Minocin 100 Mon-We-

Fri

> > > for

> > > > 2+

> > > > > > years (Antibiotic Protocol for RA).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > IgG Bands +ve: 18 ++, 30 +++, 31 +/-, 34 +/-, 39 +/-, 41

> ++,

> > > 45

> > > > +/-,

> > > > > > 58 +, 66 +/-, 93 +/-.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also had several IgM band +ve.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I am still symptomatic but better than I was.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Robyn

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Tony, the only question is what is the precipitating event(s) and

those can be different. There's no doubt in endemic areas of U.S., a

precipitating event is one or multiple tickbites essentially

vaccinating you with virulent bugs that tend to be intracellular or

go for the CNS...that includes borrelia, babesia, bartonella, for

example. Suppose you are a healthy individual and you keep getting

bit and bit and bit in your backyard and don't know it. Then you

start to succumb to other infections too--sinus, pneumonia, bladder

inections, staph, strep, all the stuff you see. Psuedonomas, I don't

know why. Fungi, for sure, in susceptible hosts.

It doesn't always have to be that way. For all I know dentists'

offices are so unsanitary perfectly healthy folk might have some

other client's lousy bacteria introduced into their mouths from the

biofilms in the tubing that sprays water...and get sick that way.

Someone else has a surgery--and something is introduced that way.

Someone else does a lot of world travel and picks up parasites or

dysentery or bugs or malaria or anything that isn't in their home

terrain and that they're not genetically adapted to, and it starts

that way.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > QUESTION:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or more

> > bands,

> > > > not

> > > > > > > > counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx

> > therapy.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > > > Barb

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Igenex WB last Spring after being on Minocin 100 Mon-We-

> Fri

> > > > for

> > > > > 2+

> > > > > > > years (Antibiotic Protocol for RA).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > IgG Bands +ve: 18 ++, 30 +++, 31 +/-, 34 +/-, 39 +/-,

41

> > ++,

> > > > 45

> > > > > +/-,

> > > > > > > 58 +, 66 +/-, 93 +/-.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Also had several IgM band +ve.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I am still symptomatic but better than I was.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Robyn

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I hear through the grapevine that a lymie and his daughter did huge

> doses of IV ascorbate for 4 days in a row for 2 weeks. ANd for two

> weeks all their lyme symptoms went away.

Hi Jill,

I like your grapevine. Can you tell us more?

Sue ,

Upstate New York

[Guest guest]

This is following the Bob Cathcart protocol. It might fight off acute

infections, and it might help one pull out of a serious exacerbation

of a chronic one. Like, considering the terrible sequalae I'm having

from a tooth extraction by a regular dentist, not an oral surgeon, who

then stitched it up insteda of leaving it open so it could properly

drain (am I an idiot or what? I begged her not to, but I should've

stood up and walked out of hte office biting on my gauze, and gone

home), I should probably do 4 day sin a row of Vitamin C, but I'm VERY

tired, overwhelmed, upset, and Thanksgiving is coming up.

At those high doses it mops up free radicals but I suspect its also a

pro oxidant and paralyzes some bugs. It's NOT a cure, and oral won't

suffice. Google Bob cathcart and hopefully you'll find some info.If

could handle a picc line or port theoretically you could get a

home nurse to give her IV glutathione, IV Vitamin C and whatever else,

it might help her. I suspect has the shortened RNase problem

that cheney talks about. The other issue is that she has never been

properly treated for babesia.

>

> >

> > I hear through the grapevine that a lymie and his daughter did huge

> > doses of IV ascorbate for 4 days in a row for 2 weeks. ANd for two

> > weeks all their lyme symptoms went away.

>

> Hi Jill,

>

> I like your grapevine. Can you tell us more?

>

> Sue ,

> Upstate New York

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb,

> I am beginning to know quite a few people who are testing positive

> for Lyme through conventional labs.

At the Lyme hearings in Albany we met a man who was quite cheerful and

chipper and healthy who said that he was positive for Borrelia. He

said his wife was being treated by an ILADS doctor, and she asked the

doctor to test her husband, also. The doctor did so, and said the

husband did not have Lyme because he had no symptoms--even though he

had a positive test or tests.

The wife had requested the test, the man said, because she thought her

husband was irritable and the irritability could be caused by Lyme.

I like what Deckoff- wrote on the precursor to this

list--that it took her a long time to realize that people with Lyme

could range from " asymptomatic to dead. "

Sue ,

Upstate New York

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb,

> I agree our genetics play a role in how maladies present in

> certain people. IMO genetics is the umbrella over the immune system

> and the P450 (metabolic) system.

I need " P450 for Dummies. " My daughter is starting antibiotics again,

and I need to try to educate myself. I printed out a link you posted

once, but have lost it. I can google, but if you have any favorites...

Sue ,

Upstate New York

[Guest guest]

Jill

Tony, the only question is what is the precipitating event(s) and

those can be different----

Jill all the roads lead to the same disease TOXINS - DEHYDRATION -

ILL HEALTH.This is the whole community in a nutsell- the only

difference is the varying degree's of toxicity, how long you've been

ill your ability to recover.

tony

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > QUESTION:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Who has a robust IgG WB profile (lets say 1 or

more

> > > bands,

> > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > counting 41 kDa)and is still symptomatic after abx

> > > therapy.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > > > > Barb

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Igenex WB last Spring after being on Minocin 100 Mon-

We-

> > Fri

> > > > > for

> > > > > > 2+

> > > > > > > > years (Antibiotic Protocol for RA).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > IgG Bands +ve: 18 ++, 30 +++, 31 +/-, 34 +/-, 39 +/-

,

> 41

> > > ++,

> > > > > 45

> > > > > > +/-,

> > > > > > > > 58 +, 66 +/-, 93 +/-.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Also had several IgM band +ve.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I am still symptomatic but better than I was.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Robyn

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>