Guest guest Posted November 1, 2005 Report Share Posted November 1, 2005 Huh, I dono. I found this interesting. To be sure, there are certain possible objections to their reasoning; how did they select their neuroborreliosis group? If they did so serologically (I dont have time to look), then the " finding " that neuroborreliosis features intrathecal Ab which powerfully binds lab-grown Bb is a circular one. It is certainly conceivable that intrathecal Ab to measles, etc could arise nonspecifically due to general immunoactivation, but who knows? THese viruses could also be present in the brain at low levels and could be enjoying epiphenomenal increased replication due to the disease (maybe they tested for that; I didnt read that far). Pathogenically or not. I was even more interested in their reference (see abstract below) purporting to show AI in MS in the form of directly-observed anti-myelin Ab bound to disintegrating myelin membrane. I dont know how they leaned toward excluding that this is a healthy function of the immune system in cleaning up destroyed myelin. Healthful (not merely benign) functions of autoreactivity are something whose existence may(?) be controversial, but I know it exists as an idea, one I havent studied yet. THis is all very worthwhile work, and I dont think pathogenic AI in MS can be excluded. However, the fact that there is a complete spectrum of clinical response (0 to almost 100%) to antibacterials suggests that refractory bacterial infection cant be excluded either, even in the 0% responsive cases. Without pathogenic transfer of autoreactive elements harvested from the natural disease, you cant really prove that pathogenic AI is occuring, as opposed to nonpathogenic AI. Did these workers ever obtain this Ab and use it at physiological concentrations to destroy healthy myelin cells in vitro? At the time of this paper, it seems they couldnt get the Ab to do such an experiment, because they couldnt find where it was coming from, nor could they determine what the physiological concentration is. Putting pathogenic AI to a critical test can be really hard. Nat Med. 1999 Feb;5(2):170-5. Related Articles, Links Comment in: * Nat Med. 1999 Feb;5(2):153-4. Identification of autoantibodies associated with myelin damage in multiple sclerosis. Genain CP, Cannella B, Hauser SL, Raine CS. Department of Neurology, University of California, San Francisco 94143-0435, USA. claudeg@... The molecular mechanisms underlying myelin sheath destruction in multiple sclerosis lesions remain unresolved. With immunogold-labeled peptides of myelin antigens and high-resolution microscopy, techniques that can detect antigen-specific antibodies in situ, we have identified autoantibodies specific for the central nervous system myelin antigen myelin/oligodendrocyte glycoprotein. These autoantibodies were specifically bound to disintegrating myelin around axons in lesions of acute multiple sclerosis and the marmoset model of allergic encephalomyelitis. These findings represent direct evidence that autoantibodies against a specific myelin protein mediate target membrane damage in central nervous system demyelinating disease. PMID: 9930864 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] > > The MRZ reaction- thought to differentiate MS from Lyme..... > anyone every had this test in real life (it sounds like it was > accepted). > > And question # 2 - I wonder wny antibodies to measles, rubella > and herpes in a marker for autoimmunity? > > > > : > > Have you read these: > > Intrathecal antibody production against Chlamydia pneumoniae in > multiple sclerosis is part of a polyspecific immune response. > > http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/124/7/1325 > > > Relevance of immunological variables in neuroborreliosis and multiple > sclerosis. > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? > cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=16008535 & query_hl=4 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 ERIC: I have read up on what the MRZ reaction is. Basically it's low affinity antibody production to measles, rubella and herpes Zoster that DO NOT bind with those respective pathogens. The test is used to dx MS, as in healthy people their antibodies to those viruses DO bind with the respective viral proteins. In this paper, they found that in MS patients, with c. pneumonia antibodies, these antobodies *do not* bind with c. peumonia. So they draw the conclusion that the antibodies did not *arise* because of a pathogen or it's expressed proteins - but rather were produced from what they call 'bystander reactions " similar the the MRZ reaction. The paper is very well done. Covers the bases, and it does leave room for conclusions other than what they make, but unfortunately, it's convincing enough that I think antibodies to c pneumonia that don't bind invitro will be added to the MRZ reaction arsenal. So, 1) The body has made antibodies against specific pathogen. 2) But (in vitro) they don't bind with the pathogen 3) they tried to cover testing: they used 2 blot methods- one standard and one very sensitive with no optical density cut off- and they used PCR They make the point that 50% of the population at large will test positive for c pneumonia (past infection) - and that antibodies from these non-MS patients *do* bind with the pathogen in vitro. I'm going to read this ONE MORE TIME - because now I can't remember if ALL the MS patients antibodies failed to bind in vitro... if that is the case (in light of the general populations exposure to c pneumonia and their high affinity) then I wonder why all of the MS patients antibodies were low affinity. Barb > > > > The MRZ reaction- thought to differentiate MS from Lyme..... > > anyone every had this test in real life (it sounds like it was > > accepted). > > > > And question # 2 - I wonder wny antibodies to measles, rubella > > and herpes in a marker for autoimmunity? > > > > > > > > : > > > > Have you read these: > > > > Intrathecal antibody production against Chlamydia pneumoniae in > > multiple sclerosis is part of a polyspecific immune response. > > > > http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/124/7/1325 > > > > > > Relevance of immunological variables in neuroborreliosis and multiple > > sclerosis. > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? > > cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=16008535 & query_hl=4 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2005 Report Share Posted November 2, 2005 That is really interesting and perturbing. Why would an antibody not bind with its target? > > > > > > The MRZ reaction- thought to differentiate MS from Lyme..... > > > anyone every had this test in real life (it sounds like it was > > > accepted). > > > > > > And question # 2 - I wonder wny antibodies to measles, rubella > > > and herpes in a marker for autoimmunity? > > > > > > > > > > > > : > > > > > > Have you read these: > > > > > > Intrathecal antibody production against Chlamydia pneumoniae in > > > multiple sclerosis is part of a polyspecific immune response. > > > > > > http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/124/7/1325 > > > > > > > > > Relevance of immunological variables in neuroborreliosis and > multiple > > > sclerosis. > > > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? > > > cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=16008535 & query_hl=4 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 I think MS Ab do bind CPn; what they are saying is that the MS Ab that bind Cpn are not part of the IgG oligoclonal bands, which I think are the dominant IgG clones found in MS. I could be messing up tho. Its been a long week. I guess they have a good point. But serology aint the beginning and end of the story. " oligoclonal band Small discrete bands in the gamma globulin region of the spinal fluid electrophoresis, indicating local central nervous system production of IgG; bands are frequently seen in patients with multiple sclerosis but can also be found in other diseases of the central nervous system including syphilis, sarcoidosis, and chronic infection or inflammation. " > > > > > > The MRZ reaction- thought to differentiate MS from Lyme..... > > > anyone every had this test in real life (it sounds like it was > > > accepted). > > > > > > And question # 2 - I wonder wny antibodies to measles, rubella > > > and herpes in a marker for autoimmunity? > > > > > > > > > > > > : > > > > > > Have you read these: > > > > > > Intrathecal antibody production against Chlamydia pneumoniae in > > > multiple sclerosis is part of a polyspecific immune response. > > > > > > http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/124/7/1325 > > > > > > > > > Relevance of immunological variables in neuroborreliosis and > multiple > > > sclerosis. > > > > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? > > > cmd=Retrieve & db=pubmed & dopt=Abstract & list_uids=16008535 & query_hl=4 > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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