Re: Biofilm

[Guest guest]

Mickie

That is so clever to focus on the slime- I believe it's toxic and

getting into the blood stream and the lymphatics and plug everything

up making detoxing impossable. I also think it hardens into plagues

or what may resemble kidney stones. Basically get a jar and save a

whole gob full of slime and watch what you end uup with.

Actually someone had a slime protocl that when followed religously

would make them feel OK.You ate anti-slime and your PH was alway';s

a certain amount.

tony

>

>

> This is a general question to those in the know:

>

> Its my understanding that S. sanguis and S. mutans produce a

biofilm that causes dental plaque, but are they the only strains

that produce biofilm or can any bacterial infection result in

biofilm production?

>

> IF so, which biofilms are capable of becoming systemic....any and

all of them?

>

> http://textbookofbacteriology.net/normalflora.html

>

> http://www.utmb.edu/otoref/Grnds/Infect-0003/Infect-0003.htm

>

> Thanks in advance for the enlightenment.......

>

> Mickie

>

[Guest guest]

I *think* Kim has written that at our present state of

knowledge, we dont know whether maybe biofilm forms are the primary

form in vivo, systemically, for primarily extracellular bacteria like

pseudomonads, strep(?), etc.

His ideas on the subject are pretty interesting, and he is an

innovative mind, not a follower.

>

>

> This is a general question to those in the know:

>

> Its my understanding that S. sanguis and S. mutans produce a

biofilm that causes dental plaque, but are they the only strains that

produce biofilm or can any bacterial infection result in biofilm

production?

>

> IF so, which biofilms are capable of becoming systemic....any and

all of them?

>

> http://textbookofbacteriology.net/normalflora.html

>

> http://www.utmb.edu/otoref/Grnds/Infect-0003/Infect-0003.htm

>

> Thanks in advance for the enlightenment.......

>

> Mickie

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the reply, . I think I found what you're referring to and will give it a good read when I can comprehend what I'm reading. http://www.biology.neu.edu/faculty03/lewis03.html#pubs Thanks to Tony for his reply as well. Mickie " " wrote:I *think* Kim has written that at our present state of knowledge, we dont know whether maybe biofilm forms are the primary form in vivo, systemically, for primarily extracellular bacteria like pseudomonads, strep(?), etc. His ideas on the subject are pretty interesting, and he is an innovative mind, not a follower.

[Guest guest]

There's no reason to think chronic bacteria *hasn't* learned to form

biofilms to help it survive. H Pylori does....

I have read alot about biofilms and it's relationship to iron because

my ALT doc wanted (and still wants) me to take an iron/magnesium

supplement because I was and now am again - slightly anemic. And of

course I wanted to restrict iron as much as possible when I did the

anti-malaria treatment and then again when I was doing abx.

I didn't want to take iron supplements, because I didn't want to

supply the bacteria with the nutrient they want most. And anyway-

irons in every food you eat.. it's impossible to eliminate iron from

your diet unless you starve yourself so I wasn't worried about iron

deficiency (I don't know how that can even exist with our diets in

the USA)

So I STILL have the damn iron supplements sitting in my bathroom

cabinet. And my multiVits are still iron free.

I have always been very iron conflicted - probably the way so many

are vitamin D conflicted......... it's just that iron doesn't come up

much for discussion.

Barb

read this:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/456297

and this about lactoferrin (which I know I've discussed on this list

before in regards to how much milk one drinks- or on the CFS list

becuase they take whey protein to get lactoferrin)

http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/lac_0314

..shtml

and this:

http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/06_02/biofilms.shtml

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=12037568 & dopt=Abstract

>

>

> I *think* Kim has written that at our present state of

knowledge, we dont know whether maybe biofilm forms are the primary

form in vivo, systemically, for primarily extracellular bacteria like

pseudomonads, strep(?), etc.

>

> His ideas on the subject are pretty interesting, and he is an

innovative mind, not a follower.

>

[Guest guest]

One reason to take enzymes and probably the reason that bromelain in

studies potentiates effectiveness.

Bromelain increases my bile too much tho (at least this extremely

high potency one I have) so I " m using my Digest from Enzymedica. I

will probably start popping one with my amoxy.

> >

> >

> > I *think* Kim has written that at our present state of

> knowledge, we dont know whether maybe biofilm forms are the

primary

> form in vivo, systemically, for primarily extracellular bacteria

like

> pseudomonads, strep(?), etc.

> >

> > His ideas on the subject are pretty interesting, and he is an

> innovative mind, not a follower.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the links, Barb, and for the reminder regarding the iron component. Here I've been using cast iron skillets for eons without even thinking that I might be feeding the wee beasties. Thanks for the chuckle when you described your conflict with iron, too. The conflict itself isn't funny, but the way you worded it is. So bacteria is using up your iron and causing your anemia? Seems to be a Catch 22 regarding iron then. Thanks also to Jill for suggesting the use of bromelain to break up biofilm. Best wishes to all, Mickie > > > > > > I *think* Kim has written that at our present state of > knowledge, we dont know whether maybe biofilm forms are the primary > form in vivo, systemically, for primarily extracellular bacteria like > pseudomonads, strep(?), etc.> > > > His ideas on the subject are pretty interesting, and he is an > innovative mind, not a follower.> >>

[Guest guest]

Wow, this is fantastic! Now you know why I use bleach and betadine (iodine) in my oral irrigator...it does help a little in preventing new films from developing. Also people should take note, if these films can put holes in your teeth, what else are they eating into??? Sinuses, organs, the brain, the stomach wall, your bones. Just happens to depend on where they find a weakness. This is why I'm sick of hearing how our immune systems aren't functioning properly. They're doing the best they can, they just can't keep up with the bugs. penny Barb Peck <egroups1bp@...> wrote: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/health/bal-hs.biofilm23mar23,0,4256495.story?coll=bal-health-utilityFrom the Baltimore Sun Bacteria thrive on 'film'This slimy glue is everywhere -- in your body, on your teeth -- and hard to killBy EmerySun reporterMarch 23, 2007When he was studying for his doctorate in microbiology, Mark E. Shirtliff thought he knew a lot about bacteria.Then things got scary.He discovered that bacteria can band together into sheets - called biofilms. When they do, they alter their behavior. They build complex communities, establish lines of communication and coordinate their actions. Like

ants, the microbes find power in numbers. And they're nasty."Infections that should respond to antibiotics don't," Shirtliff said. "They become 50 to 500 times more resistant."With drugs often useless against biofilms in the human body, Shirtliff is trying to turn the tables on the slippery infections.The assistant professor at the University of land Dental School received $1.25 million this month from the National Institutes of Health for research into vaccines that might prevent the deadly films from forming in the first place.Although the public rarely hears it in popular discussions of health issues, the term "biofilm" was coined in a 1978 Scientific American article by Costerton, now of the University of Southern California Dental School. He used it to describe microbes that clump together on wet surfaces."It came up in dentistry first," Costerton said. "They called it

plaque. I just proposed [that] the biofilm isn't just in the mouth, but everywhere."In fact, biofilms are just about everywhere. They coat everything from Alpine river rocks to neglected teeth. Every year they cause billions of dollars of damage to ship hulls, oil pipelines and machinery by corroding metal surfaces and clogging up the works.These plaques often contain a variety of microorganisms, including bacteria, protozoa and algae suspended in slimy glue called polysaccharide that holds them together and binds them to surfaces. When enough of the organisms have collected, they undergo metabolic changes that make them better team players."We tend to think of them as primitive single-celled organisms," said Phil , the director of the Center for Biofilm Engineering at Montana State University. "But there is a lot of cooperation and coordination comparable to something more like an ant colony.

It allows them to accomplish more than they could on their own."Particularly vexing is the ability of virulent bacterial infections to resist attack after forming a biofilm. "We could pump bleach into your system," Shirtliff said, "and it probably wouldn't do anything."That's saying something. Chlorine bleach is the microbiologist's ultimate weapon - it's used to disinfect the labs that house the world's most dangerous germs.Like soldiers hiding in a castle, the bacteria inside the film are protected from drugs design to kill them. The cells are also starved for nutrients. This makes them grow and divide slowly - providing even more drug resistance, since antibiotics often target fast-growing cells.The stress also puts biofilm bacteria on the defensive, causing them to release caustic acids and proteins. "They start freaking out," Shirtliff said. "They turn on stress response genes that make

them attack the antibiotic."Compounding the problem, the stress response tricks the natural immune system into using the wrong attack plan. When the macrophages and other white blood cells that form the body's police force arrive on the scene, they're ambushed and destroyed by the biofilm's arsenal of proteins and acids.Biofilm infections often return because antibiotics kill only the free-floating - or planktonic - bacteria. When a patient stops taking the drug, new free-roaming bacteria emerge from the biofilm and the infection spreads again.Scientists estimate that 65 percent to 80 percent of chronic infections in industrialized nations linger on because of biofilm formation. Biofilms appear in patients with cystic fibrosis, gum disease and chronic inner ear, urinary tract and bone infections.Medical devices such dental implants, catheters, artificial joints and heart valves are vulnerable

to biofilm formation.Central venous catheters, a type inserted into most intensive-care patients in hospitals, are a common source of bacterial biofilms. About 80,000 of ICU patients contract bacterial infections from the catheters each year - and about 35 percent of those die from the infection, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.When biofilms grow on bone and metal after joint replacement surgery, the only option may be to start again from scratch."The only way you can get it out of there is by carving it out," Shirtliff said. "If an artificial knee gets infected, you're going to have to take that knee out and put another one in."In his research, Shirtliff has focused on one particularly bad actor that has gotten a lot of press lately: methicillin-resistant staphylococcus aureus (MRSA). The antibiotic-resistant bacteria kill about 90,000 people in the United

States every year, according to the CDC.Because MRSA infections are difficult or impossible to eradicate once a biofilm is fully formed, Shirtliff is searching for a way prevent the films from growing.The trick, he believes, is to hone in on the odd behavior of the biofilm bacteria. He has identified proteins the bacteria produce in abundance as they form a film and hopes to develop antibodies that will target those proteins.Like an army attacking a half-built fortress, the antibodies would attack the immature biofilm and destroy it before its defenses are fully formed."The antibodies come in and deactivate the proteins and can destroy the biofilm," he said. "The immune cells could also come in safely then and attack as well."To test his theories, Shirtliff grows MRSA biofilms in silicon tubing in his lab at the dental school and looks for protein targets.Anti-biofilm vaccines he

has developed have proven effective for treating rabbits with MRSA bone infections. He hopes to move on to clinical trials in humans within four years, he said.He said a vaccine might be the best way to combat MRSA because the bacteria are so widespread. "Here in the United States," he said, "it's hard to cork that bottle."