Re: Being rude

[Guest guest]

At 08:21 PM 8/14/02 -0600, Sparrow Rose Cross wrote:

>and I also won't read e-mail

>that's one giant chunk of paragraph that's four pages long and consists of

>six run-on sentences (yes, some people write mail like that.)

[snip]

>I have been called rude for asking someone to send their mail in a more

>readable format, even though I thought I asked politely. Maybe we're not

>supposed to say anything and just let the person assume we read the mail? I

>don't know.

I just saw a woman who comes across as very NT ask someone to use

paragraphs in their e-mail. I thought I'd share it with the list as an

example of how NTs ask people to properly format their mail. I find it

fascinating because this woman appears to be using a method that I find

repulsive but it was very well recieved by others on the list.

Here's what she wrote (names removed and replaced with [xxx] to protect

their privacy):

[xxxxx]?

I love you. Very much.

I like what you have written; however, I'm begging

you...PLEASE USE PARAGRAPHS!

Thank you

<smooches>

[xxxx]

Now here's my interpretation of what she did.

1. She " emotionally drooled " on the other person and put her request in

between the " butter " (I call it that because of the phrase " buttering

someone up " which I think might be what she's doing here.)

2. She made a special point to let the person know that it wasn't them she

was displeased with and it wasn't what they had to say, but how they said

it (I always assumed that was implicit in asking someone to use a more

readable format, but I guess there are things that are obvious to aspies

that are as invisible to NTs as much of their social customs are to us.)

3. She used many more " happy symbols " in this mail than she normally uses.

By happy symbols, I mean " love " " smooches " " thank you " and " "

4. She used the word " begging " to make it sound more like a desperate plea

than a reasonable request. I think this is a language method similar to the

Japanese use of " polite words " and " regular words. " In Japanese, one asks

to view someone else's beautiful garden but invites others to glance at

their miserable garden. Lowering the self is considered polite. By

presenting her request as a desperate plea, she " lowered herself " to the

status of " needy person " rather than " equal making a reasonable request " to

appease the ego of the person she was addressing.

Maybe this lowering method is similar to the way dogs and wolves present

themselves to higher-ranking pack members by crawling on their belly? That

gesture in the animal kingdom is designed to avoid anger in the

higher-ranking animal. Perhaps in the NT world a verbal lowering serves the

same purpose?

However, I'm puzzled about the words that follow the lowering because they

are in all capitals which indicates shouting. Maybe the lowering was not

for the request itself but to soften the blow of the shouting to follow?

Like I said, I find this method -- drip false-sounding emotions everywhere

and make yourself appear less than you are -- repulsive, but it appeared to

create a smooth communication with no one's feelings getting hurt and no

one being called rude.

Fascinating to study NT behavior.

[Guest guest]

Sparrow Rose Cross wrote:

> I just saw a woman who comes across as very NT ask someone to use

> paragraphs in their e-mail. I thought I'd share it with the list as an

> example of how NTs ask people to properly format their mail. I find it

> fascinating because this woman appears to be using a method that I find

> repulsive but it was very well recieved by others on the list.

>

> Here's what she wrote (names removed and replaced with [xxx] to protect

> their privacy):

>

> [xxxxx]?

> I love you. Very much.

>

>

> I like what you have written; however, I'm begging

> you...PLEASE USE PARAGRAPHS!

>

>

> Thank you

> <smooches>

Ugh. Repulsive. I rather like the autistic method, by comparison... at a

recent autistic

adult support meeting, some of the members had begun to converse with one

another rather

than to the group as a whole, so that there were several conversations going on

at once,

and one male aspie could not handle it. He said something to the effect of,

" Everyone...

stop talking all at once. I can't take it when people are having multiple

conversations

at once. You should go outside into the hall if you are going to talk amongst

yourselves.

You can do whatever you want, but if you continue to talk all at once, I am

going to leave. "

The parallel conversations ceased, and the group was in line for the rest of the

session.

Not one person objected or appeared offended.

It was direct, to the point, and expressed his need, and none of us took

offense. I

gather that NTs would have been rather offended, but it seemed perfectly natural

to me,

and it did not raise any objections.

I would have been offended by the saccharin-sweetened verbiage you quoted above.

[Guest guest]

Hi Sparrow.

: Like I said, I find this method -- drip false-sounding emotions everywhere

: and make yourself appear less than you are -- repulsive, but it appeared

to

: create a smooth communication with no one's feelings getting hurt and no

: one being called rude.

:

: Fascinating to study NT behavior.

My Dad does this all the time. He also puts his right hand slightly forward

and twiddles his fingers (as if he were " pattering " on something in the air)

and does this really annoying gesturing with his head and upper body while

he emotionally drools. It makes me furious and I make a definite point to

not look at him while he is doing this and to preempt him on the point is

going to get to after all the sugar coating and bullshit. With somebody that

I did not know, I would most likely laugh silently to myself at how pathetic

their way of requesting something or giving an opinion is, but with Dad I

just condense what he is saying into short concise points (often before he

actually says it) and repeat it back to him as a question (sort of like " is

this what you are trying to say? " ).

He gets offended and sulks over it sometimes and other times he calls me

rude and says how I should not be so insolent after all he does for me blah

blah blah.. whatever he does for me is of his own free will and not

dependant on any reaction or nicety from me.. he is free to not do stuff for

me. I think having NT parents would be bad enough, but having emotionally

manipulative spineless slimy parents is worse. Fortunately for me, emotional

blackmail usually does not work on me. Dad has done his fair share of it

successfully to me but in the end I always see it for what it is and my

reaction then is much more negative than it would have been had he not

slimed up in the first place.

I think this kind of behaviour is rife in the NT world. Most people are not

as obvious and frequent with it as my Dad but most still do it. I am capable

of it too (learned skill) but it is not something I like to do or have done

to me.

CZ

P.S. I am still doing my hair the way you described and it has only got

better since I started. I put it in a french braid yesterday when I went out

to the shops. First time in a long time it has been long enough. Even my Dad

(who would usually not notice if I was wearing a few inches of high heel

shoes and had my hair dyed or cut) commented on how nice and shiny it looked

the other day.

[Guest guest]

If someone spoke to me this way, I would feel belittled and offended. The

excessive buttery would lead me to think the writer feels I cannot handle a

simple request. I mean, it sounds like she is talking (judging from the words &

style, it is definitely female) to a young child. Right away when I read this

woman's email, I picture her among the world's " lowest functioning " on the

" Normality " spectrum. Or, the most extreme form of NT. I picture a stuffy woman

in designer apparel, with excessive perfume and a fake mask of a smile which has

permanently grown into her face. The kind you find behind the makeup counter in

the big dept stores. BARF!!!! (note the ALL CAPS in the word " BARF " and

additional exclamation marks to denote " yelling " or " strong emotion " ).

And the thought of her saying she " loves me " would make me even sicker.

TTFN!

Tigger

" A successful man is one who can build a firm foundation with the bricks that

others throw at him. " ( Brinkley)

----- Original Message -----

From: Sparrow Rose Cross

[xxxxx]?

I love you. Very much.

I like what you have written; however, I'm begging

you...PLEASE USE PARAGRAPHS!

Thank you

<smooches>

[xxxx]

[Guest guest]

At 11:17 PM 8/17/02 -0700, tigger wrote:

<<<If someone spoke to me this way, I would feel belittled and offended.

The excessive buttery would lead me to think the writer feels I cannot

handle a simple request. I mean, it sounds like she is talking (judging

from the words & style, it is definitely female) to a young child.>>>

And what's baffling to me is that the person she was writing to appeared to

*enjoy* and *appreciate* her style. She said " whooooooohooooooooo " in

response to " I love you. Very much. " and in response to the rest, she

apologized and then said how much she wishes she could meet the woman in

person and share soup and tea with her.

I don't think any of the response was sarcastic, but then I'm a bad judge

of such things. It looked like she " loved all over " the woman in return.

(Even more baffling, this is a list of women who claim to be strong,

powerful, self-determining women living alternative lifestyles yet I can't

distinguish them from ordinary garden-variety humans at all. If anything,

they're *more* " normal " than normal women.)

[Guest guest]

At 09:57 AM 8/18/02 +0800, Antryg Windrose wrote:

>My Dad does this all the time. He also puts his right hand slightly forward

>and twiddles his fingers (as if he were " pattering " on something in the air)

>and does this really annoying gesturing with his head and upper body while

>he emotionally drools.

I hate it when people beat around the bush like that. Just say it and get

it over with!

While I'm on the subject of things people do that I hate, I hate that

people smile when they do something wrong because I can never tell if

they're smiling in a propitiating manner or smiling because they meant to

be cruel and think it's funny.

The most recent example was when a woman who works at the place where I

sell plasma started spraying the stuff next to me that caused me to have an

anaphylactic reaction the last time it was sprayed next to me. I'm trapped

because I've got a needle and tubing in my arm and I start yelling to stop

before I can't breathe. I could feel my throat closing up. Several other

technicians came running and started fanning me with file folders to get

fresh air to me and blow the stuff I'm allergic to away from me. I don't

think the woman did it on purpose (she hadn't even been cleared to work the

blood floor yet when it happened to me the last time) but she was

apologizing to me with a huge smile on her face.

I've noticed the " smile apology " before (when a neighbor tried to lecture

me for taking his laundry out of the dryer and leaving it unfolded on the

counter and I replied that I had been sitting down there in the laundry

room doing my laundry for the last four hours and if he cared so much about

his laundry, he shouldn't have left it sit for at least four hours after

his dryer stopped running.) and once again, I didn't think that the action

was malicious, but that huge smile just throws me off and I hate it.

>P.S. I am still doing my hair the way you described and it has only got

>better since I started. I put it in a french braid yesterday when I went out

>to the shops. First time in a long time it has been long enough. Even my Dad

>(who would usually not notice if I was wearing a few inches of high heel

>shoes and had my hair dyed or cut) commented on how nice and shiny it looked

>the other day.

Splendid! And it just keeps getting better the longer you do it. It can't

totally undo damage to hair but it sure does make it look a lot less

damaged and keeps it from getting more damaged.

[Guest guest]

: While I'm on the subject of things people do that I hate, I hate that

: people smile when they do something wrong because I can never tell if

: they're smiling in a propitiating manner or smiling because they meant to

: be cruel and think it's funny.

:

: The most recent example was when a woman who works at the place where I

: sell plasma started spraying the stuff next to me that caused me to have

an

: anaphylactic reaction the last time it was sprayed next to me. I'm trapped

: because I've got a needle and tubing in my arm and I start yelling to stop

: before I can't breathe. I could feel my throat closing up. Several other

: technicians came running and started fanning me with file folders to get

: fresh air to me and blow the stuff I'm allergic to away from me. I don't

: think the woman did it on purpose (she hadn't even been cleared to work

the

: blood floor yet when it happened to me the last time) but she was

: apologizing to me with a huge smile on her face.

I go spare at people who set off my allergies even if they have no idea what

they are doing. I also go spare if I cannot avoid a smoker (usually they are

avoidable but some places are enclosed or maybe have a smoker at each end so

there is no place to go to get away from them) or if somebody with a bad

respiratory infection or cold sits next to me or coughs without hand over

mouth. If they want to know why I hit the roof about those things, I will

tell them.

: I've noticed the " smile apology " before (when a neighbor tried to lecture

: me for taking his laundry out of the dryer and leaving it unfolded on the

: counter and I replied that I had been sitting down there in the laundry

: room doing my laundry for the last four hours and if he cared so much

about

: his laundry, he shouldn't have left it sit for at least four hours after

: his dryer stopped running.) and once again, I didn't think that the action

: was malicious, but that huge smile just throws me off and I hate it.

I worked out quite a long time ago that smiling a fake smile during an

argument really incites the other person. I used to do it when I got totally

sick of arguments with the roommate I evicted last year and she would go

bezerk at me (but never touched me... she knew I was capable of breaking her

bones if I wanted to and I had to try very hard on occasion not to). This

was the roommate with BPD/DID/GID/dependancy and a really really bad case of

filth and body odour as well as total selfish and manipulative disregard for

my health. I still have bad dreams about things like her having somehow

ended up staying the night at my house and me having the same old futile

discussions with her trying to get her to pull herself together about money

and stop lying and procrastinating and move out of my house. Having the

psycho change her surname to something other than mine would be a nice

ending to this whole awful episode. I think that the day I hear she no

longer has my bloody surname might be the day I stop wanting to kick her

ugly face in.

: >P.S. I am still doing my hair the way you described and it has only got

: >better since I started. I put it in a french braid yesterday when I went

out

: >to the shops. First time in a long time it has been long enough. Even my

Dad

: >(who would usually not notice if I was wearing a few inches of high heel

: >shoes and had my hair dyed or cut) commented on how nice and shiny it

looked

: >the other day.

:

: Splendid! And it just keeps getting better the longer you do it. It can't

: totally undo damage to hair but it sure does make it look a lot less

: damaged and keeps it from getting more damaged.

I will buy some jojoba oil next pay or the one after. I was going to buy

some this pay but I ended up buying parts to make a " playgym " for my budgies

instead. I bought them a 12 line (or whatever they are called.. bars maybe)

clothes airer and heaps of budgie toys like ladders and things with bells

and jingle balls to hang on it. I also got one of those metal grid rack

things for hanging shirts or suits on and one of those circular plastic

things with pegs that I suppose is for hanging up to dry clothes indoors. A

bowl for food or water fits nicely in the middle of that one. They are very

happy with the whole thing.

Take care,

CZ

[Guest guest]

At 04:46 PM 8/18/02 +0800, Antryg Windrose wrote:

>I go spare at people who set off my allergies even if they have no idea what

Is " go spare " slang for " yell at " ?

>they are doing. I also go spare if I cannot avoid a smoker (usually they are

>avoidable but some places are enclosed or maybe have a smoker at each end so

>there is no place to go to get away from them)

Last time I went to sell plasma (yes, that is pretty much the only place I

go) there were two guys smoking by the side of the building so I made a big

circle around them so I wouldn't have to walk through their smoke and they

stepped around to the door and stood right in front of it, smoking. I don't

know whether they did it on purpose or not, but it sure seemed so. I stood

back, waiting for them to finish so I could go in the building and one of

them opened the door and held it open for me so I just ran at full speed

through the door so I wouldn't have to smell their smoke or get it in my

hair where I'll have to smell it for hours afterwards.

>I will buy some jojoba oil next pay or the one after. I was going to buy

>some this pay but I ended up buying parts to make a " playgym " for my budgies

>instead. I bought them a 12 line (or whatever they are called.. bars maybe)

>clothes airer and heaps of budgie toys like ladders and things with bells

>and jingle balls to hang on it. I also got one of those metal grid rack

>things for hanging shirts or suits on and one of those circular plastic

>things with pegs that I suppose is for hanging up to dry clothes indoors. A

>bowl for food or water fits nicely in the middle of that one. They are very

>happy with the whole thing.

Lucky budgies! I would get toys for my rat but I never see anything I think

he might like. Sometimes I make him stuff by cutting up plastic containers

or cardboard boxes and tubes. He chews his toys up when he's playing with

them but he seems to enjoy it and that's all that matters -- keeping my

little furry pal happy.

[Guest guest]

: >I go spare at people who set off my allergies even if they have no idea

what

:

: Is " go spare " slang for " yell at " ?

Not exactly... it can involve yelling but (at least the way my parents used

it and I picked up) it is more to do with expressing anger than the volume

of sound. What I mean in this context is I will make direct eye contact (not

balanced social type just staring straight at them or " through " them) and

tell them off quite savagely. Yelling would depend on situation and context

(and immediacy.. yelling is a really good way of getting people to move

away quickly).

: >they are doing. I also go spare if I cannot avoid a smoker (usually they

are

: >avoidable but some places are enclosed or maybe have a smoker at each end

so

: >there is no place to go to get away from them)

:

: Last time I went to sell plasma (yes, that is pretty much the only place I

: go) there were two guys smoking by the side of the building so I made a

big

: circle around them so I wouldn't have to walk through their smoke and they

: stepped around to the door and stood right in front of it, smoking. I

don't

: know whether they did it on purpose or not, but it sure seemed so. I stood

: back, waiting for them to finish so I could go in the building and one of

: them opened the door and held it open for me so I just ran at full speed

: through the door so I wouldn't have to smell their smoke or get it in my

: hair where I'll have to smell it for hours afterwards.

I used to smoke a couple of cigarettes a day and back then I did not notice

the lingering smells unless it was directly inhaling somebody else's smoke

(or my roommate who reeked like one of those tins used for ashtrays in

mental hospital courtyards). Since I totally quit, I hate smelling smokers

that have just got on the bus or train or moved into any airspace that I am

occupying. When I smoked, I did not inhale the smoke. Inhaling sidestream

smoke from other people always made my asthma very bad but the effect from

my own " smoking " was fairly mild in comparison. My respiratory health has

been better since I quit, of course. Quitting was no problem for me as I was

never physically dependant on the chemicals in the first place. It was just

a habit and part of my NT charade and rebellion against being a sick

asthmatic kid.

: >I will buy some jojoba oil next pay or the one after. I was going to buy

: >some this pay but I ended up buying parts to make a " playgym " for my

budgies

: >instead. I bought them a 12 line (or whatever they are called.. bars

maybe)

: >clothes airer and heaps of budgie toys like ladders and things with bells

: >and jingle balls to hang on it. I also got one of those metal grid rack

: >things for hanging shirts or suits on and one of those circular plastic

: >things with pegs that I suppose is for hanging up to dry clothes indoors.

A

: >bowl for food or water fits nicely in the middle of that one. They are

very

: >happy with the whole thing.

:

: Lucky budgies! I would get toys for my rat but I never see anything I

think

: he might like. Sometimes I make him stuff by cutting up plastic containers

: or cardboard boxes and tubes. He chews his toys up when he's playing with

: them but he seems to enjoy it and that's all that matters -- keeping my

: little furry pal happy.

They certainly are lucky budgies. They are spoiled rotten. Since I am home

most of the time (and looks like I will be deferring all my uni studies

until next year because of my health) they get a lot of attention. Normally

having more than one bird means they are not as tame and will not talk. Mine

all are very tame (I call them " my fuzzy neckwarmers " ) and my first one,

Toby, tries to talk although I cannot yet work out what he is trying to say.

Probably " sweetyboo " or " diddyboo " or " bubbaboo " or maybe " sneezyboo " . Most

of the things I say to Toby end in " boo " .

Take care,

CZ