Re: AI experimentation - snipey bad-mood criticisms

[Guest guest]

Some day I should research the history of the discovery of

Autoimmunity.

I wonder if it came into being shortly after coricoidsteroid drugs

were designed. I know research with abx was halted for many diseases

when they discovered how GOOD steroids made one feel.

First you discover a drug that supresses the immune system, then you

invent a multitude of disorders that fit the model for use of this

newly disgned drug. - then you advertise, and diagnose to fit the

drug model.

I just have a Bad Taste in my whole being about autoimmunity in

general-

and alot of the experiments they design are falwed and poorly

designed, and analysed ... IMO...

>

> This stuff is SO freakin abstruse.

>

> Not sure anyone wants a look at this one... basic story is they

> created AI disease in mice by injecting T-cell lines. (Clever

> controls they used established very clearly that the disease was

AI.)

>

> http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?

> tool=pubmed & pubmedid=10841661

>

> Sounds impressive, but check the fine print on the mice:

>

> " We have previously revealed that RAG-2–/– mice lacking T cells, B

> cells, and NKT cells become highly prone to passive experimental

> autoimmune encephalomyelitis (EAE) after eliminating NK cells in

> vivo (18). "

>

> So these are not your daddys lab mice. Specifically, if they have

no

> lymphocytes they must have no T-regulatory cells? Whats up with

> that? How are you going to expect them to have any immunological

> normality? From my very very crude knowledge of T-reg cells I dont

> think we know enough to exclude this being a big factor. Its kind

of

> like studying injured animals to find out what kinds of stimuli

> provoke emotional irritation.

>

> " We have previously revealed that gut-shot chimps become highly

> prone to distress responses to loud noises after they have been

> treated with tear gas. "

>

> Further, there is the problem of " transfer dynamics " as I'll call

> it. Take this paper: " 5 × 10^6 T-line cells [ie 5 million cells of

a

> single T-cell clone] were intravenously transferred. " We know that

> autoAbs and autoreactive T-cells occur at some level in various

> natural states of health and disease, and that there are mechanisms

> that keep autoreactivity to harmless levels at least in healthy

> individuals. How do we know that the sudden introduction of auto-T-

> cells, or autoAb for that matter, does not overcome self-tolerance

> regulatory networks in ways having nothing to do with any natural

> disease? This seems to be a potential problem with any

> adoptive/passive transfer experiment.

>

[Guest guest]

That's a good point, when was the word invented and did it coincide

with a new drug. UGH.

Still. I interviewed a woman on Friday and it quite freaked me out.

Not only did she have a lot of stress growing up, but she began to

get autoimmune diseases at age 15 (she's 64 now). I forget how it

started, I want to say some form of diabetes or thryoid diseaes. She

has had rhuematoid arthritis her whole life sometimes requiring a

wheelchair. She recently had atrial fibrillation curable only by

ablating nerves in her heart ie heart surgery. She has gone into

biliary cirrhosis. She takes 4 tylenol and 4 motrin each night so her

feet don't swell and make it impossible to walk. Her mom got

rheumatoid arthritis later in life and died of biliary

cirrohsis/osteoporosis.

She works full time and she has 3 kids--active life in spite of all

this.

One daughter also has rheumatoid arthritis and is about to give birth

and is pain.

The son has had...some kind of clotting disorder, tendonitis and I

forget what else.

The other daughter had chronic strep ifnections as a kid.

Now that's pretty much autoimmune disease and WHAT the heck is

governing it? I told her to get the whole family tested for celiac

sensitivity genes but I had the sinking upest feeling she was going

to ignore me, EVEN THO her sister cannot eat wheat or gluten!!!!

Then I said that infection can be inherited across the placenta and

that was something to seriously consider and referred her to

arthritis trust.

Then I told her if she has to take all those tylenol okay but in

cirrohsis thats really going to stress her liver. Her doctor said,

yeah before you have cirrohsis, but not after. You're already sick so

what the heck (I'm paraphrasing). Don't you love doctors?

I told her look if thats what you need to walk okay but you need a

ton of glutathione, and I referred her to Wellness Pharmacy.

The conversation was supposed to be about her work not her health but

it led naturally to that because of what she told me about early

stresses in her life.

The whole thing upset me a lot. It still does a few days later. I

hate seeing whole families sick and knowing they won't do even the

simplest things. Talk about snipey bad-mood criticisms. I felt like

my simple advice was completley useless, and I followed up with all

the info in an email, but I just know it ain't gonna happen. That

whole fricken family will take their piankillers and

immunosuppressants and be sick until they die.

[Guest guest]

Steroids are cheap as sand today. Not sure how long thats been the

case. Anyway I dont see the need to conclude there was a conscious

devious plan (not sure if youre saying that yourself), just alot of

group think. My 2 med school friends, both fine people and smart as

hell, have both informed me they doubt I have an infection, but they

are too busy to get into it. One thinks refractory lyme is an AI

disease, probably because lecturers tell her so straight up (I've

seen this stated as fact in high places). I email them like 2 short

abstracts and they apparantly dont have time to read 2 abstracts.

Well on their way to clinical omniscience I'd say.

At this point in my reading, it does look like myesthenia gravis

might be a real AI disease. And there could be others.

Its rock-hard work to understand things for yourself all the way

down to the level of experiment, and take other peoples word as

little as possible. No one can dig it all from the quarks up. Some

investigators and practitioners cut relatively few corners, some cut

relatively alot. In every generation, some are fooling themselves

and also everyone around them.

>

> Some day I should research the history of the discovery of

> Autoimmunity.

> I wonder if it came into being shortly after coricoidsteroid drugs

> were designed. I know research with abx was halted for many

diseases

> when they discovered how GOOD steroids made one feel.

>

> First you discover a drug that supresses the immune system, then

you

> invent a multitude of disorders that fit the model for use of this

> newly disgned drug. - then you advertise, and diagnose to fit the

> drug model.

>

> I just have a Bad Taste in my whole being about autoimmunity in

> general-

> and alot of the experiments they design are falwed and poorly

> designed, and analysed ... IMO...

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> Its kind of like studying injured animals to find out what kinds of

> stimuli

> provoke emotional irritation.

That is a pretty good description of some of the psychiatric studies of

people with chronic Lyme or chronic fatigue syndrome.

> " We have previously revealed that gut-shot chimps become highly

> prone to distress responses to loud noises after they have been

> treated with tear gas. "

Sue ,

Upstate New York