Re: Evaluation of selected antiprotozoal drugs in the Babesia microti-hamster model.

[Guest guest]

Nelly:

Over the past 3 years I think I've read reams about drugs,

parasites and treatment in humans and animals.

I became increasing aware that unless something is dx during the

ACUTE stage (Malaria or Babs smear - Culture positive.. i.e. physical

evidence) that there are several pathogens that can cross react on a

western blot (so probably titers too that combine antibodies).

The Rickettsia family ( spotted and spotless RcokyMtn Fever, Colo.

Fever, Babs - uncomplicated Malaria may all cross react if the

populations in the body are low and the host is chronically ill- but

functioning...

That's why I like the HCQ/Doxy therapy so much that they use on Q-

fever - just gets alot of these different bugs.

I also do not like the idea of constant abx.. J is right on

iin how it can disrupt the intestinal flora, and I've known for along

time the gut is where immunity starts.. If that's screwed up, how can

one even separate out the symptoms - they all overlap from disease to

disease.

As far as this article goes- it's probably true that one agent

alone doesn't clear anything. I think you really have to go combo -

to get the classical form- and the variant. Or damage them with one,

and kill 'em with another.

I'm not sure of anything really- just do what makes the most sense

to me- with the least collateral damage to the body.

Barb

> Jill, Barb,

> Have you read this?

> A couple of years ago I tried to investigate tafenoquine (here

named WR238605) for Babesia treatment. But I didn't get very far.

The drug was not available at the time, nobody seemed interested in

testing it against Babesia.

> I know tafenoquine is used in malaria prophylaxis and treatment.

> Nelly

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=8980761 & dopt=Abstract

> Antimicrob Agents Chemother. 1997 Jan;41(1):91-4.

>

>

> Evaluation of selected antiprotozoal drugs in the Babesia

microti-hamster model.

>

> Marley SE, Eberhard ML, Steurer FJ, Ellis WL, McGreevy PB,

Ruebush TK 2nd.

>

> Division of Parasitic Diseases, Centers for Disease Control

and prevention, Department of Health and Human Services, Atlanta,

Georgia 30341, USA.

>

> The presently used therapy for Babesia microti infections, a

combination of quinine and clindamycin, does not always result in

parasitologic cures. To identify possible alternative

chemotherapeutic agents for such infections, we screened, in the

hamster-B. microti system, 12 antiprotozoal drugs that have either

recently been released for human use or were in experimental stages

of development at the Walter Army Institute of Research for the

treatment of malaria and leishmaniasis. Several well-recognized

antimalarial drugs, such as mefloquine, halofantrine, artesunate, and

artelenic acid, exhibited little or no effect on parasitemia. Two 8-

aminoquinolines, WR006026 [8-(6-diethylaminohexylamino)-6-methoxy-4-

methylquinoline dihydrochloride] and WR238605 [8-[(4-amino-1-

methylbutyl)amino]-2,6-dimethoxy-4-methyl-5 -(3-

trifluoromethylphenoxy-7) quinoline succinate], produced clearance of

patent parasitemia. Furthermore, blood from infected hamsters treated

with WR238605 via an intramuscular injection failed to infect naive

hamsters on subpassage, thus producing a parasitologic cure. These

two compounds merit further screening in other systems and may prove

useful in treating human babesiosis.

>

> PMID: 8980761 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

Barb,

I know how you feel about all and everything being dxed as "Babesia". I feel the same way, it probably is a more complex scenario.

I never had a WB for Babesia. I had tons of symptoms + lab findings incl hemolytic anemia and moderate but persisting eosinophilia that could be indicative of a protozoan infection like Babesia (won't go into them here but I had all them them) another strong indication in my case that some kind of parasitic stuff was going on was my very strong reactions to all anti-malarial/anti-protozoan substances (Metronidazole/tinidazole, Atovaquone, mefloquine) followed by improvements in my worse symptoms. But if I stop them for a few weeks I experience a return of the heart symptoms first, then the vertigo, etc. So without claiming to have Babesia (although I did have a + PCR from MDL), I feel anti-malarials and other anti-protozoans have something to offer me.

I might even have malaria (plenty of exposure in very endemic areas + febrile illness on 2 occasions whilst in the endemic areas). I have tried to look at the possibility of persisting cerebral malarial infection, but too tired to battle apathy of my ID doctor re testing.

Nelly

[Guest guest]

Nelly, yes I posted a similar study in dogs and wrote the

corresponding author at the CDC. I am COMPLETELY confused as they too

say artesunate and larium don't work, but these new quinolones do--

one in particular--

They tested in this case by " subgassing " , anyway, they tested by,

EVEN IF THE BLOOD looked clear, completely clear, trying to infect

spleen-less dogs, and even in one of THOSE compounds, some dogs

became infected. Does this mean there were still residual parasites

in say, .005 of blood cells or something? OR is there ANOTHER form,

that is undetected and unknown? I don't know. Here I am trying to

find an answer. Barb did answer me on lymenet, with some very nice

references.

THe thing is, artesunate IS different than arthemos/artemisinin...AND

the other thing is, what about synergy with antibiotics, like

tetracycline, it does exist.

Its very frustrating, the lack of research. Anyway I am NOT doing any

drugs till I figure this out. Maybe its why lymies are on mepron/zith

for months and months and still relapse. Mepron/zith was moderately

effective in the dog studies. Clindamycine/quinine only moderately

also. There was still, imo, substantial remaining parasitemia.

I don't know WHAT to say.

[Guest guest]

Jill,

Was that the study from Singapore? I didn't see the one you posted. The one I remember but can't find right now I think was by an Australian vet. They were keeping a bunch of spleenless greyhounds just for the purpose of infecting them with the blood of other dogs to make sure those other dogs did not carry babesia. So they obviously think that even when Babesia is not detectable by smears and probably PCR they still don't feel confident they dogs are not infected. The definitive test being infecting splenectomised dogs and see if they get sick.

>I don't know WHAT to say.

I have been feeling the same way for ...a long time!

Nelly

[infections] Re: Evaluation of selected antiprotozoal drugs in the Babesia microti-hamster model.

Nelly, yes I posted a similar study in dogs and wrote the corresponding author at the CDC. I am COMPLETELY confused as they too say artesunate and larium don't work, but these new quinolones do--one in particular--They tested in this case by "subgassing", anyway, they tested by, EVEN IF THE BLOOD looked clear, completely clear, trying to infect spleen-less dogs, and even in one of THOSE compounds, some dogs became infected. Does this mean there were still residual parasites in say, .005 of blood cells or something? OR is there ANOTHER form, that is undetected and unknown? I don't know. Here I am trying to find an answer. Barb did answer me on lymenet, with some very nice references.THe thing is, artesunate IS different than arthemos/artemisinin...AND the other thing is, what about synergy with antibiotics, like tetracycline, it does exist.Its very frustrating, the lack of research. Anyway I am NOT doing any drugs till I figure this out. Maybe its why lymies are on mepron/zith for months and months and still relapse. Mepron/zith was moderately effective in the dog studies. Clindamycine/quinine only moderately also. There was still, imo, substantial remaining parasitemia.I don't know WHAT to say.

[Guest guest]

Nelly, here's the lymenet thread:

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/037264.html

I think Barb's right about one thing--monotherapy is not enough.

I have some more research to do.

I personally think fosmidomycin would be a great drug to add in and

it pi$$es me off that its been foudn EFFECTIVE in malaria and there

is no funding for it, and its an abx that's been around for 30 years.

It targets the plastid, so it would work in babesia.

I'm not saying it would work alone.

Somebody want to speculate why " clean " blood can infect dogs?

> Jill,

>

> Was that the study from Singapore? I didn't see the one you posted.

The one I remember but can't find right now I think was by an

Australian vet. They were keeping a bunch of spleenless greyhounds

just for the purpose of infecting them with the blood of other dogs

to make sure those other dogs did not carry babesia. So they

obviously think that even when Babesia is not detectable by smears

and probably PCR they still don't feel confident they dogs are not

infected. The definitive test being infecting splenectomised dogs and

see if they get sick.

>

> >I don't know WHAT to say.

>

> I have been feeling the same way for ...a long time!

>

> Nelly

> [infections] Re: Evaluation of selected

antiprotozoal drugs in the Babesia microti-hamster model.

>

>

> Nelly, yes I posted a similar study in dogs and wrote the

> corresponding author at the CDC. I am COMPLETELY confused as they

too

> say artesunate and larium don't work, but these new quinolones do-

-

> one in particular--

> They tested in this case by " subgassing " , anyway, they tested by,

> EVEN IF THE BLOOD looked clear, completely clear, trying to

infect

> spleen-less dogs, and even in one of THOSE compounds, some dogs

> became infected. Does this mean there were still residual

parasites

> in say, .005 of blood cells or something? OR is there ANOTHER

form,

> that is undetected and unknown? I don't know. Here I am trying to

> find an answer. Barb did answer me on lymenet, with some very

nice

> references.

>

> THe thing is, artesunate IS different than

arthemos/artemisinin...AND

> the other thing is, what about synergy with antibiotics, like

> tetracycline, it does exist.

>

> Its very frustrating, the lack of research. Anyway I am NOT doing

any

> drugs till I figure this out. Maybe its why lymies are on

mepron/zith

> for months and months and still relapse. Mepron/zith was

moderately

> effective in the dog studies. Clindamycine/quinine only

moderately

> also. There was still, imo, substantial remaining parasitemia.

>

> I don't know WHAT to say.

[Guest guest]

You know, I'm always amazed that I'm on ALL these antibiotics, and

have been for quite some time now, and my gut is doing REALLY well.

It's almost hard to fathom, except that perhaps it had adapted a

long time ago to not having much in the way of good flora, so when I

started knocking out the bad with the abx, my gut only got better. I

mean, no more IBS or GI problems. And apparently, I'm absorbing

nutrients better than I used to (according to recent intracelluar

nutritional testing).

I know it's just the opposite for some. Abx therapy upsets the

balance and they start having bad gut problems. A very few people

even seem affected for life. When something like this happens to me

(a bad gut reaction after more than the first couple of days of

therapy) I immediately stop that antibiotic and try something else.

I think that's where some people get screwed up. Sticking with a

drug that's making their gut flora worse, rather than changing the

drug.

penny

" Barb Peck " <egroups1bp@y...> wrote:

> I also do not like the idea of constant abx.. J is right

on iin how it can disrupt the intestinal flora, and I've known for

along time the gut is where immunity starts.. If that's screwed up,

how can one even separate out the symptoms - they all overlap from

disease to disease.

[Guest guest]

Often its after you stop the antibiotics that you get the bad

problems.

>

> > I also do not like the idea of constant abx.. J is right

> on iin how it can disrupt the intestinal flora, and I've known for

> along time the gut is where immunity starts.. If that's screwed up,

> how can one even separate out the symptoms - they all overlap from

> disease to disease.

[Guest guest]

Oh, I've stopped and started abx numerous times, fortunately for me,

my gut's been okay and has gotten better (although I CAN say that

when I went off i.v. abx after many months on, I had a couple days

of the most intense gas and case of black tongue imaginable.

Charcoal took care of it. :-) I then did really well for 6 months

before having a fatigue relapse, then the brain fog, etc. My mistake

was that I stopped ALL abx. I was just so sick of it. But I should

have stayed on the oral stuff after maybe taking a short break. Very

bad call.

I'll stay on abx for the rest of my life if I have to, although of

course, that's not my goal. I want to get cured, then stay on guard

against re-infection or reactivation, as Barb and Tony do. Right now

I'm hopeful. This is the best I've been since getting sick.

I do believe that something, toxins, bacteria, I don't know what,

damaged my stomach lining (pre-abx), because I used to be able to

take ibuprofen or aspirin type products no problem, but then became

unable to tolerate them at all. They gave me waves of very bad

stomach pains lasting a couple of days. This is a sign of ulcers (or

worse) not being far off. Of course, I haven't taken an aspirin in

several years for fear of the pain. Stomach lining may be okay now,

I don't know. Nothing really bothers me, except when I travel and

eat different foods (usually greens), which causes me some GI

adjustment. Or when I'm on the first couple days on a new

antibiotic, then there's usually a little diarrhea.

penny

> >

> > > I also do not like the idea of constant abx.. J is

right

> > on iin how it can disrupt the intestinal flora, and I've known

for

> > along time the gut is where immunity starts.. If that's screwed

up,

> > how can one even separate out the symptoms - they all overlap

from

> > disease to disease.

[Guest guest]

I beleive I was on the cusp of big GI problems just before I started

Lyme therapy. I think I was close to IBS, and probably had a Candida

over-run in the gut that I didn't know about.

It didn't take long on abx (about a month) till I was pushed over the

edge. My ALT Doc (and J) set me on the tract to straighten it

out... and it took about 8 months after I stopped abx for me to get

to the point where I felt like it was undercontrol, and my candida

panel was within normal limits.

I pay extra close attention now.

I do not think my GI system could tolerate the amounts that Penny's

taken.

Barb

> > >

> > > > I also do not like the idea of constant abx.. J is

> right

> > > on iin how it can disrupt the intestinal flora, and I've known

> for

> > > along time the gut is where immunity starts.. If that's screwed

> up,

> > > how can one even separate out the symptoms - they all overlap

> from

> > > disease to disease.

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I know it's kind of strange that my stomach seems so iron clad

now, compared to before. Other people have such terrible GI problems

which makes treatment so difficult. I used to have them as well.

When I was a kid, I always had elimination problems, IBS type

episodes. I remember going into the lavatory at school and just

shaking all over with chills and discomfort and IBS type symptoms.

Then, as an adult, I had constant IBS for at least 10 years.

Honestly, I just do better all around on abx than off. I do know

that life is miserable when my gut is off due to some bug or drug

reaction. It is NO fun to have a messed up gut.

As says, I'm sure many of us have gut dysbiosis with no

symptoms. I did think that my gut may have been at fault when I

seemed unable to absorb so many nutrients. I'm doing better now,

according to the Spectracell testing, but it's been a long road to

having a gut that feels this reliable. Knock on wood. I ate a

Mac's burger the other day, and man did THAT not sit well.

Gave me a definite, if short lived, stomach ache! That's the kind of

thing that used to happen, so I'm never thinking I'm out of the

woods for good with any of this. And at least I've got a good reason

to avoid Mac's hamburgers :-)

penny

> > > >

> > > > > I also do not like the idea of constant abx.. J is

> > right

> > > > on iin how it can disrupt the intestinal flora, and I've

known

> > for

> > > > along time the gut is where immunity starts.. If that's

screwed

> > up,

> > > > how can one even separate out the symptoms - they all

overlap

> > from

> > > > disease to disease.