Re: J - the intestines/poor B vit absorption/Vegetarism

[Guest guest]

Barb,

I know you asked J, but thought I'd add a little info. I have been vegan

since

about the same time as your friend. In addition to checking her B vitamin

levels, she

should also have homocysteine checked (can be quite high when B vitamins are

low).

Also recommended would be one of the Great SMokies Lab tests on stool which will

assess the good bacteria/gut flora and any opportunistic infections.

I was a little low on folate and B12 via blood tests and homocysteine was super

high.

Depsite supplementation with probiotics, while my e. coli, and acidophyllus were

okay, my bifo was non-existant, key for B production.

Within two months of supplementing B6 & B12 sublingually, and taking a folate

supplement as well as a pure bifo probiotic, my b vitamins completely

normalized, my

homocysteine dropped to reasonable levels, and my energy improved despite

ongoing untreated Bb infection... It appears that the combo of the vitamin

supplementation and normalizing of the gut flora made a tremendous difference B

vitamin-wise. Abx subsequently cleared up an infection in my gut.

BTW, vegetarians do not eat chicken and most don't eat fish. Vegans omit ALL

animal

products including dairy and eggs.

~DM.

> (and others):

> Would like your input please:

>

> I know that some B vits are synthesized and absorbed in the

> intestine (and that colbalt, and iron are precursor players).

> I also know that only a small amount can be absorbed at a time (so

> when supplementing more isn't always better).

>

>

> SYMPTOM:

> Friend with RA (dx in 1992), She is not anemic, but RBC profile

> shows old RBCs (not turning over fast enough). Seems to be on the

> cusp for a B vitamin deficiency- despite supplements and a good diet.

> Maybe of importance is that she's been a vegetarian since 1988

> although does eat chicken and fish. She does not drink alcohol (or

> smoke).

>

> B deficiency symtpoms are exacerbated by taking abx or drug/drug

> combo's that interfere with B synthesis (or absorption)...

> deficiency SYMPTOMS ARE: gum and mouth lesions and blood in urine.

>

> PRESUMED PROBLEM:

> We're thinking that for some reason her intestinal microbes are

> either not synthesizing B vits - and/or the synthetic supplements are

> not being absorbed.

>

> QUESTION:

>

> Could this stem from intestinal flora imbalance?

> Or could this be diet.... or somehow disease related?

> Does this have anything to do with NOT eating RED meat?

>

> Any info as to how to correct this would be appreciated.

>

> Thanks,

> Barb

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb ,

“Could this stem from intestinal flora imbalance? Or could this be diet.... or somehow disease related? Does this have anything to do with NOT eating RED meat?”

Barb I think not eating red meat can be a problem to some, but I think other factors have a much bigger bearing .My daughter was a vegi for years all through her teens unfortunately ..I line with most teens nothing would persuade her to eat more normally [sorry veggies] During this time my daughters health was never good. Eventually she started eating fish ..well not just eating devouring would describe it better, Her health improved ..My daughter remains a devourer of fish & remains healthy ..

DM’s post is interesting , I do wonder if the probiotics “permanently “ implanted ..still they may have provided the crutch needed to stabilise things.

Here’s some info ,I expect you have read most of this before .But to me it’s the quality of gut flora that’s the crucial key to health ,even small amounts of supplemented Vits will not be absorbed without a good host / flora relationship . not eating red meat may contribute somewhat but I think in a minor role

As you are probably aware it’s not only the B vits that are produced by our symbiotic relationship with our gut flora ..

http://www.emedicine.com/PED/topic1356.htm

How about this , I was just looking up a few sites and came across one of my posts from two years ago.. well well

http://www.pool-7.ru/lookup-unknown-prescription-meds.html

Vitamin KThis vitamin is involved in the blood clotting process of the body and the maintenance of strong bones.It is found in small quantities in most vegetables and wholegrain cereals, but the main source of this vitamin is from the intestinal tract and the stomach through the activity of 'healthy bacteria'. These bacteria are often also referred to as the 'gut flora'. Not only do we live in harmony with them but they in fact fulfil several important roles, including part of our defence against more harmful organisms.

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/focus/nutrition/facts/vitamins_minerals/vitamin.htm

Proper functioning bowel flora We rely upon the symbiosis (of mutual benefit) between the bacteria and other organisms that normally inhabit our colon and ourselves. Many materials produced by these bacteria, we have come to expect to be present. Without their presence in adequate amounts we are in dire peril of not surviving. Such nutrients as Vitamin K, Vitamin B12, Vitamin D, Biotin and Folic acid are among those included. These organisms, that are so crucial to our needs, are as susceptible to antibiotics as are any pathogenic bacteria, and are often far more fragile. Antibiotics are a common enough material in our diet and as treatments, in this day and age, that it makes one wonder how many of us have a fully functioning bowel flora!

http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Colon%20Health/smbone13.htm

-----Original Message-----From: infections [mailto:infections ]On Behalf Of Barb PeckSent: 12 September 2005 15:21infections Subject: [infections] J - the intestines/poor B vit absorption/Vegetarism (and others):Would like your input please: I know that some B vits are synthesized and absorbed in the intestine (and that colbalt, and iron are precursor players).I also know that only a small amount can be absorbed at a time (so when supplementing more isn't always better).SYMPTOM:Friend with RA (dx in 1992), She is not anemic, but RBC profile shows old RBCs (not turning over fast enough). Seems to be on the cusp for a B vitamin deficiency- despite supplements and a good diet. Maybe of importance is that she's been a vegetarian since 1988 although does eat chicken and fish. She does not drink alcohol (or smoke). B deficiency symtpoms are exacerbated by taking abx or drug/drug combo's that interfere with B synthesis (or absorption)... deficiency SYMPTOMS ARE: gum and mouth lesions and blood in urine.PRESUMED PROBLEM: We're thinking that for some reason her intestinal microbes are either not synthesizing B vits - and/or the synthetic supplements are not being absorbed.QUESTION: Could this stem from intestinal flora imbalance? Or could this be diet.... or somehow disease related? Does this have anything to do with NOT eating RED meat? Any info as to how to correct this would be appreciated.Thanks,Barb

[Guest guest]

Thanks Dura and ....

We were getting to where it was just making sense that she has a

disruption of Gut flora - and probably has for a long time....

Now to get a Doc that'll do the correct tests.

Barb

> Hi Barb ,

> " Could this stem from intestinal flora imbalance?

> Or could this be diet.... or somehow disease related?

> Does this have anything to do with NOT eating RED meat? "

>

>

>

> Barb I think not eating red meat can be a problem to some, but I

think other

> factors have a much bigger bearing .My daughter was a vegi for

years all

> through her teens unfortunately ..I line with most teens nothing

would

> persuade her to eat more normally [sorry veggies] During this time

my

> daughters health was never good. Eventually she started eating

fish ..well

> not just eating devouring would describe it better, Her health

improved ..My

> daughter remains a devourer of fish & remains healthy ..

>

>

>

> DM's post is interesting , I do wonder if the

probiotics " permanently "

> implanted ..still they may have provided the crutch needed to

stabilise

> things.

>

> Here's some info ,I expect you have read most of this before .But

to me it

> 's the quality of gut flora that's the crucial key to health ,even

small

> amounts of supplemented Vits will not be absorbed without a good

host /

> flora relationship . not eating red meat may contribute somewhat

but I

> think in a minor role

>

>

>

> As you are probably aware it's not only the B vits that are

produced by our

> symbiotic relationship with our gut flora ..

>

> http://www.emedicine.com/PED/topic1356.htm

>

>

>

> How about this , I was just looking up a few sites and came across

one of my

> posts from two years ago.. well well

>

> http://www.pool-7.ru/lookup-unknown-prescription-meds.html

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Vitamin K

>

> This vitamin is involved in the blood clotting process of the body

and the

> maintenance of strong bones.

>

> It is found in small quantities in most vegetables and wholegrain

cereals,

> but the main source of this vitamin is from the intestinal tract

and the

> stomach through the activity of 'healthy bacteria'. These bacteria

are often

> also referred to as the 'gut flora'. Not only do we live in harmony

with

> them but they in fact fulfil several important roles, including

part of our

> defence against more harmful organisms.

>

>

>

>

http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/focus/nutrition/facts/vitamins_minerals/vit

amin.h

> tm

>

>

>

>

>

> Proper functioning bowel flora

> We rely upon the symbiosis (of mutual benefit) between the

bacteria and

> other organisms that normally inhabit our colon and ourselves. Many

> materials produced by these bacteria, we have come to expect to be

present.

> Without their presence in adequate amounts we are in dire peril of

not

> surviving. Such nutrients as Vitamin K, Vitamin B12, Vitamin D,

Biotin and

> Folic acid are among those included. These organisms, that are so

crucial to

> our needs, are as susceptible to antibiotics as are any pathogenic

bacteria,

> and are often far more fragile. Antibiotics are a common enough

material in

> our diet and as treatments, in this day and age, that it makes one

wonder

> how many of us have a fully functioning bowel flora!

>

> http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Colon%

20Health/smbone13.htm

>

>

>

> [infections] J - the intestines/poor

B vit

> absorption/Vegetarism

>

>

> (and others):

> Would like your input please:

>

> I know that some B vits are synthesized and absorbed in the

> intestine (and that colbalt, and iron are precursor players).

> I also know that only a small amount can be absorbed at a time (so

> when supplementing more isn't always better).

>

>

> SYMPTOM:

> Friend with RA (dx in 1992), She is not anemic, but RBC profile

> shows old RBCs (not turning over fast enough). Seems to be on the

> cusp for a B vitamin deficiency- despite supplements and a good

diet.

> Maybe of importance is that she's been a vegetarian since 1988

> although does eat chicken and fish. She does not drink alcohol (or

> smoke).

>

> B deficiency symtpoms are exacerbated by taking abx or

drug/drug

> combo's that interfere with B synthesis (or absorption)...

> deficiency SYMPTOMS ARE: gum and mouth lesions and blood in

urine.

>

> PRESUMED PROBLEM:

> We're thinking that for some reason her intestinal microbes are

> either not synthesizing B vits - and/or the synthetic supplements

are

> not being absorbed.

>

> QUESTION:

>

> Could this stem from intestinal flora imbalance?

> Or could this be diet.... or somehow disease related?

> Does this have anything to do with NOT eating RED meat?

>

> Any info as to how to correct this would be appreciated.

>

> Thanks,

> Barb

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Brb, I know that B-complex injections might help this person.

For many years, I could not absorb B vitamins when taken orally, but

when I got a shot, whoo-ee, worked great. I got them about once

every three to four weeks. $15 at the Naturopath. For several years

I would buy the injections in Mexico and self-administer but I

stopped when I realized I couldn't determine if they had a

preservative.

My hair grew back on this one.

Cheers,

*S*

> (and others):

> Would like your input please:

>

> I know that some B vits are synthesized and absorbed in the

> intestine (and that colbalt, and iron are precursor players).

> I also know that only a small amount can be absorbed at a time (so

> when supplementing more isn't always better).

>

>

> SYMPTOM:

> Friend with RA (dx in 1992), She is not anemic, but RBC profile

> shows old RBCs (not turning over fast enough). Seems to be on the

> cusp for a B vitamin deficiency- despite supplements and a good

diet.

> Maybe of importance is that she's been a vegetarian since 1988

> although does eat chicken and fish. She does not drink alcohol (or

> smoke).

>

> B deficiency symtpoms are exacerbated by taking abx or

drug/drug

> combo's that interfere with B synthesis (or absorption)...

> deficiency SYMPTOMS ARE: gum and mouth lesions and blood in

urine.

>

> PRESUMED PROBLEM:

> We're thinking that for some reason her intestinal microbes are

> either not synthesizing B vits - and/or the synthetic supplements

are

> not being absorbed.

>

> QUESTION:

>

> Could this stem from intestinal flora imbalance?

> Or could this be diet.... or somehow disease related?

> Does this have anything to do with NOT eating RED meat?

>

> Any info as to how to correct this would be appreciated.

>

> Thanks,

> Barb

[Guest guest]

Barb, I've heard that the problems associated with cutting red meat

from your diet goes beyond protein and B vitamin deficiencies.

Apparently red meat has certain antioxidant/enzymes that are hard to

get elsewhere. Has she been taking any digestive enzymes for

example? A lack of the right enzymes could be making it difficult

for her to utilize nutrients as well?

penny

> (and others):

> Would like your input please:

>

> I know that some B vits are synthesized and absorbed in the

> intestine (and that colbalt, and iron are precursor players).

> I also know that only a small amount can be absorbed at a time (so

> when supplementing more isn't always better).

>

>

> SYMPTOM:

> Friend with RA (dx in 1992), She is not anemic, but RBC profile

> shows old RBCs (not turning over fast enough). Seems to be on the

> cusp for a B vitamin deficiency- despite supplements and a good

diet.

> Maybe of importance is that she's been a vegetarian since 1988

> although does eat chicken and fish. She does not drink alcohol (or

> smoke).

>

> B deficiency symtpoms are exacerbated by taking abx or

drug/drug

> combo's that interfere with B synthesis (or absorption)...

> deficiency SYMPTOMS ARE: gum and mouth lesions and blood in

urine.

>

> PRESUMED PROBLEM:

> We're thinking that for some reason her intestinal microbes are

> either not synthesizing B vits - and/or the synthetic supplements

are

> not being absorbed.

>

> QUESTION:

>

> Could this stem from intestinal flora imbalance?

> Or could this be diet.... or somehow disease related?

> Does this have anything to do with NOT eating RED meat?

>

> Any info as to how to correct this would be appreciated.

>

> Thanks,

> Barb

[Guest guest]

Barb, how about giving her EPO? Dr. Shoemaker sometimes prescribes

this for his CFS patients. May help her red blood cell status.

[Guest guest]

Jill:

I don't think so (from what I've read about EPO) My 91 yr. old

father gets EPO shots for his failing kidneys. It's not something

imo that'd be appropriate at this point for my RA friend- as it's not

adressing the underlying problem (and that's what we're after).

Penny:

I agree- and I think she'll introduce red meat if other

measures fail. Today we went and bought some sublingual B - and Bifdus.

She has symptoms in her moth now, so if the sublingual B helps - then

she'll think about what to do next -

Thanks you guys for all the replies.

Barb

> Barb, how about giving her EPO? Dr. Shoemaker sometimes prescribes

> this for his CFS patients. May help her red blood cell status.

[Guest guest]

Jill

I don't think cheney even comes close to using real drugs, the EPO

that your describing increases red cells, the one cheney talks about

is some cream puff remedy.I just can't recall what it was for at the

moment.

tony

> Barb, how about giving her EPO? Dr. Shoemaker sometimes prescribes

> this for his CFS patients. May help her red blood cell status.