Re: Igenex targeted, Tony stuff.

[Guest guest]

In case Penny doesn't pipe up since your personal attacks seem tolerated here,

Tony, I

mostly ignore your drivel EXCEPT when you personally attack someone.

Post all the flotsam and jetsam you care to, but kindly take the name calling

elsewhere. It may not be beneath you, but the board can certainly do without

it.

BTW, wasn't it you who verbally assaulted for " posting a book " that was, oh

say,

about the

same length of this post of yours....

> > > > This statement right here is a big problem that is only

> clouding

> > > the

> > > > issue:

> > > >

> > > > At first, Mr. Courcier did not know whom to trust, and he

> > remained

> > > > on the antibiotics therapy prescribed by his doctor in Texas.

> > But

> > > by

> > > > July he concluded that he did not have Lyme disease and

> stopped

> > > > taking the antibiotics, which he said were only making him

> feel

> > > > worse.

> > > >

> > > > I read this same rationale all the time, that because a person

> > > > reacts badly to one abx, it's some kind of proof that there's

> no

> > > > infection involved.

> > > >

> > > > When is the medical community going to shine some light on

> this

> > > > entire antibiotic/infection debaucle? When are they going to

> > > educate

> > > > the public that all antibiotics do not work for all people or

> > all

> > > > bugs due to individual organism mechanics or resistance?

> > > >

> > > > Right now, the vast majority of the population has no clue

> when

> > it

> > > > comes to this topic while the medical community perpetuates a

> > > total

> > > > myth about the use of antibiotics, claiming it's

> their " overuse "

> > > by

> > > > patients that's the problem, when it's really MISUSE, endorsed

> > by

> > > > the doctors themselves!

> > > >

> > > > And while we're being lectured by an ignorant media not to use

> > > > antimicrobial handsoap, millions of abx are pumped into our

> feed

> > > > animals on a daily basis.

> > > >

> > > > What's wrong with this entire picture?

> > > >

> > > > This is why I think we need to remember that most people don't

> > > > understand bacteria or antibiotics at all, and that we need to

> > > > continuously put information out there to help correct all the

> > > > misperceptions when it comes to antibiotic treatment.

> > > >

> > > > penny

[Guest guest]

I agree, we don't tolerate personal attacks, BUT...do you know what

it really comes down to? Tony's " attacks " just aren't as skillful or

as passive agressive as some people's. He talks off-the-cuff, and is

definitely politically incorrect, but he's never calculating or

conniving and he'd do absolutely anything to help anyone who needed

it, regardless of the cost to himself. He'd never hold back anything

that he thinks might help even a single person. Because of that, and

because I've actually seen him help a lot of people in a very real

way, more than anyone else I know, I've never had a problem with his

antics. They don't really hurt anyone, except perhaps they bruise

some people's egos.

So, as I've said many times, if you don't like a post, either s.o.b.

(scroll on by) or take it back channel with that person. Don't waste

space here arguing about speaking styles. Argue the facts or

theories, not the personalities. Arguing about arguing is a complete

waste of energy and time.

And, just as a little FYI before claiming I give Tony special

treatment, I've had people on this list call me " pathetic " , " dumb " ,

even a " nazi " among many more derogatory terms, and what do you

know, they're still posting here, just like Tony is. IMO, being

called a " smarty pants " is pretty tame, in comparison. But if

someone feels personally wronged or targeted by anyone else, and

they don't want to deal with that person directly, then they can

write me off-list and I will try to help solve the problem. But that

goes for the people directly involved only. I would only hope that

the rest of us are just mature enough to deal.

So saying that, Tony, even if your offensive remarks sound more like

grade school name calling to me than serious attacks, please control

yourself so that others don't react and everything gets sent

careening off course. (Either that or learn to be more passive

agressive. --No, of course I don't REALLY mean that.)

Maybe everyone who has a problem with this stuff can try thinking of

Tony, or ANYONE who annoys or irritates them, as a " herx " .

Everything else that causes us discomfort seems to get that tag, and

it's considered a good thing. :-)

penny

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Penny,

Time and again I am amazed by your defense of Tony's rhetoric. Do you think it is just a crude style of writing when he tells someone to get their head out of their arse. I can tell the difference. The reason I read Tony's posts is because I hope to learn something although I do POB most of his posts. Often his posts are so toxic and offensive that I have a hard time sifting through the obnoxious stuff to glean anything good or constructive. I know there has not been any direct attack on me but I am offended when he slams my friends.That hurts me too. I am angered by your response so I will come right out and say it. I am not passive aggressive. I suspect others who you call passive aggressive are being sensitive, sensible and diplomatic.

I wish Tony would give names and addresses of those he has cured or at least tell them to post here so we can see the proof of what he claims.

Tony's obnoxious, racist remarks set the tone on this forum. Often much energy is wasted by people trying to calm him down or defend themselves. I don't think the folks here have the extra energy to spare. You have said that this is a forum for facts and is not a support forum, we should go someplace else if we want support. But what about verbal abuse. If you can't see the blatant verbal abuse and attacks then something is wrong, very wrong.

Respectfully, Mariepenny <pennyhoule@...> wrote:

I agree, we don't tolerate personal attacks, BUT...do you know what it really comes down to? Tony's "attacks" just aren't as skillful or as passive agressive as some people's. He talks off-the-cuff, and is definitely politically incorrect, b but he's never calculating or conniving and he'd do absolutely anything to help anyone who needed it, regardless of the cost to himself. He'd never hold back anything that he thinks might help even a single person. Because of that, and because I've actually seen him help a lot of people in a very real way, more than anyone else I know, I've never had a problem with his antics. They don't really hurt anyone, except perhaps they bruise some people's egos. So, as I've said many times, if you don't like a post, either s.o.b. (scroll on by) or take it back channel with that person. Don't waste

space here arguing about speaking styles. Argue the facts or theories, not the personalities. Arguing about arguing is a complete waste of energy and time.And, just as a little FYI before claiming I give Tony special treatment, I've had people on this list call me "pathetic", "dumb", even a "nazi" among many more derogatory terms, and what do you know, they're still posting here, just like Tony is. IMO, being called a "smarty pants" is pretty tame, in comparison. But if someone feels personally wronged or targeted by anyone else, and they don't want to deal with that person directly, then they can write me off-list and I will try to help solve the problem. But that goes for the people directly involved only. I would only hope that the rest of us are just mature enough to deal.So saying that, Tony, even if your offensive remarks sound more like grade school name calling to me than serious attacks, please control

yourself so that others don't react and everything gets sent careening off course. (Either that or learn to be more passive agressive. --No, of course I don't REALLY mean that.)Maybe everyone who has a problem with this stuff can try thinking of Tony, or ANYONE who annoys or irritates them, as a "herx". Everything else that causes us discomfort seems to get that tag, and it's considered a good thing. :-) penny> > >

Start your day with - make it your home page

[Guest guest]

BACKGROUND: Tony ask Barb if she wishes shed dispensed with

tetracyclines. I dont think so. I am back to working 12, 14 hour days

sometimes after only 11 months, (am a full time student) and the one

drug I have rarely paused is doxy.

METHODS: FOr me a year of doxy seems to kick ass. Since you seem to

overlook whats going on in your backyard with me and Barb its hard to

credit that you have really made a good survey of people claiming cure

over at lymenet or whatever. How do you explain why so many people are

never the same after erythema migrans? How is that " fashionable " ? Are

you referring to the current fashion amongst borreliae of infecting

humans and running them into the ground?

RESULTS: Lemme know if you dont/wouldnt, like everyone else, typically

require hours at the scope to demonstrate a single organism in

tertiary syphilis. The spirochetoses just arent understood, but that

doesnt mean the evidence doesnt make for a seriously strong disease

model nonetheless. What do you think of the whipple disease bacillus

being cultured repeatably for the first time only in 2000? How bout

leprosy? How about the unculturable microbe of human uveitis that

killed inoculated mice after 6 months? I'm not sure how they decided,

but most people with microbio PhDs seem to think that most *soil*

organisms are presently inculturable - not even talking obligate

parasites here with their reduced genomes.

CONCLUSION: Koch was definitely the man, thing is he rode to

work in the morning on a dinosaur and his postulate pertaining to pure

culture is now one zillion percent obsolete.

[Guest guest]

I also use tetracyclines and keep telling people they keep on

working.I just don't see them as getting the job done completely on

autoimmune ilnesses.I also tell people to keep rotating them so the

can distributre to all parts of the anatomy.

Also there's 1 million hospital visits a day with people going down

to bugs that are there and if treated early the response is

brilliant.The whole post was about Igenex- and there also under

investigation for giving so many people false hope.I don't have a

problem believing anything it's just that I have the toxins and the

damaging bacteria up my sleeve not some test that you seem to

support as brilliant science.

> BACKGROUND: Tony ask Barb if she wishes shed dispensed with

> tetracyclines. I dont think so. I am back to working 12, 14 hour

days

> sometimes after only 11 months, (am a full time student) and the

one

> drug I have rarely paused is doxy.

>

> METHODS: FOr me a year of doxy seems to kick ass. Since you seem

to

> overlook whats going on in your backyard with me and Barb its hard

to

> credit that you have really made a good survey of people claiming

cure

> over at lymenet or whatever. How do you explain why so many people

are

> never the same after erythema migrans? How is that " fashionable " ?

Are

> you referring to the current fashion amongst borreliae of

infecting

> humans and running them into the ground?

>

> RESULTS: Lemme know if you dont/wouldnt, like everyone else,

typically

> require hours at the scope to demonstrate a single organism in

> tertiary syphilis. The spirochetoses just arent understood, but

that

> doesnt mean the evidence doesnt make for a seriously strong

disease

> model nonetheless. What do you think of the whipple disease

bacillus

> being cultured repeatably for the first time only in 2000? How

bout

> leprosy? How about the unculturable microbe of human uveitis that

> killed inoculated mice after 6 months? I'm not sure how they

decided,

> but most people with microbio PhDs seem to think that most *soil*

> organisms are presently inculturable - not even talking obligate

> parasites here with their reduced genomes.

>

> CONCLUSION: Koch was definitely the man, thing is he rode

to

> work in the morning on a dinosaur and his postulate pertaining to

pure

> culture is now one zillion percent obsolete.

[Guest guest]

It's this type of testing and cross reactivity that gets no-one

anywhere in the system. Actually Tarello has just given up as seem

to have the newcastle group with all there studies since 1989.The

fact that you can't sit there and give yourself an ilness to meet

criteria for a crappy diagnosis see's the real researchers not

bother anymore.Tarello works the animal models beautifully and meets

the crappy criteria required and yet he also gets this type of song

and dance.

I'm just fortunate that one day when the truth comes out at least I

had the score on the board.Blood culture, real urine cultures, stool

cultures and you want me to do what? Also the helicobacter a recent

discovery is tested for gas, has a culture media to grow it in, and

all bases loaded, why don't Igenex move forward.

Actually jason really put Igenex thru the ringer last time this

come up and he claimed they are working on cultures and

sensitivities according to his back door emails.

> BACKGROUND: Tony ask Barb if she wishes shed dispensed with

> tetracyclines. I dont think so. I am back to working 12, 14 hour

days

> sometimes after only 11 months, (am a full time student) and the

one

> drug I have rarely paused is doxy.

>

> METHODS: FOr me a year of doxy seems to kick ass. Since you seem

to

> overlook whats going on in your backyard with me and Barb its hard

to

> credit that you have really made a good survey of people claiming

cure

> over at lymenet or whatever. How do you explain why so many people

are

> never the same after erythema migrans? How is that " fashionable " ?

Are

> you referring to the current fashion amongst borreliae of

infecting

> humans and running them into the ground?

>

> RESULTS: Lemme know if you dont/wouldnt, like everyone else,

typically

> require hours at the scope to demonstrate a single organism in

> tertiary syphilis. The spirochetoses just arent understood, but

that

> doesnt mean the evidence doesnt make for a seriously strong

disease

> model nonetheless. What do you think of the whipple disease

bacillus

> being cultured repeatably for the first time only in 2000? How

bout

> leprosy? How about the unculturable microbe of human uveitis that

> killed inoculated mice after 6 months? I'm not sure how they

decided,

> but most people with microbio PhDs seem to think that most *soil*

> organisms are presently inculturable - not even talking obligate

> parasites here with their reduced genomes.

>

> CONCLUSION: Koch was definitely the man, thing is he rode

to

> work in the morning on a dinosaur and his postulate pertaining to

pure

> culture is now one zillion percent obsolete.

[Guest guest]

THats true, I am a combo therapy person myself, you wont find me

taking one drug only.

IGeneX just does tests. They are free to scratch their heads as

little or as much as they like over why cures are uncommon.

By the way I've read some claims that Mattman cultured spiros from

some ALS-dxd patients and this got them abx treatment that improved

them. As they were dx'd with ALS I think you can assume most of them

had been deteriorating. DOnt know for sure if thats so but its

something to look into if you think she never did anything pragmatic

for anyone. I also read she got arrested for doing work like that,

again not certain that is a fact.

Meanwhile Steere says chronic lyme cant be caused by Bb because it is

not consistently cultured from chronic lyme by every worker (whereas

it can be cultured from erythema migrans in 25-75% of cases by most

workers). This is a wrong argument, simply based on an incorrect

assumption, as anyone can see by looking at Nanagaras work on culture-

negative chlamydia persister states in ReA.

>

>

> I also use tetracyclines and keep telling people they keep on

> working.I just don't see them as getting the job done completely on

> autoimmune ilnesses.I also tell people to keep rotating them so the

> can distributre to all parts of the anatomy.

> Also there's 1 million hospital visits a day with people going down

> to bugs that are there and if treated early the response is

> brilliant.The whole post was about Igenex- and there also under

> investigation for giving so many people false hope.I don't have a

> problem believing anything it's just that I have the toxins and the

> damaging bacteria up my sleeve not some test that you seem to

> support as brilliant science.

[Guest guest]

Tony:

People work with the tools they have.

There aren't many people that can prepare a slide and CORRECTLY

identify a pathogen. If one can ID the organism CORRECTLY then I

agree that there's no better way (then run to run an abx sensitivity

test - Ohmygod - are we in Heaven?).

It's just not a viable option for everyone.

And what's this about Igenex giving " false hope " ???? I think their

WB tests yield the best raw data in the country - cuz you can't GET

that data from the other labs - even if they have it.

Barb

> > BACKGROUND: Tony ask Barb if she wishes shed dispensed with

> > tetracyclines. I dont think so. I am back to working 12, 14 hour

> days

> > sometimes after only 11 months, (am a full time student) and the

> one

> > drug I have rarely paused is doxy.

> >

> > METHODS: FOr me a year of doxy seems to kick ass. Since you seem

> to

> > overlook whats going on in your backyard with me and Barb its

hard

> to

> > credit that you have really made a good survey of people claiming

> cure

> > over at lymenet or whatever. How do you explain why so many

people

> are

> > never the same after erythema migrans? How is that " fashionable " ?

> Are

> > you referring to the current fashion amongst borreliae of

> infecting

> > humans and running them into the ground?

> >

> > RESULTS: Lemme know if you dont/wouldnt, like everyone else,

> typically

> > require hours at the scope to demonstrate a single organism in

> > tertiary syphilis. The spirochetoses just arent understood, but

> that

> > doesnt mean the evidence doesnt make for a seriously strong

> disease

> > model nonetheless. What do you think of the whipple disease

> bacillus

> > being cultured repeatably for the first time only in 2000? How

> bout

> > leprosy? How about the unculturable microbe of human uveitis that

> > killed inoculated mice after 6 months? I'm not sure how they

> decided,

> > but most people with microbio PhDs seem to think that most *soil*

> > organisms are presently inculturable - not even talking obligate

> > parasites here with their reduced genomes.

> >

> > CONCLUSION: Koch was definitely the man, thing is he rode

> to

> > work in the morning on a dinosaur and his postulate pertaining to

> pure

> > culture is now one zillion percent obsolete.

[Guest guest]

Tony wrote:

" Actually jason really put Igenex thru the ringer last time this

come up and he claimed they are working on cultures and

sensitivities according to his back door emails. "

Tony - Whaddya mean here?

Barb

> > BACKGROUND: Tony ask Barb if she wishes shed dispensed with

> > tetracyclines. I dont think so. I am back to working 12, 14 hour

> days

> > sometimes after only 11 months, (am a full time student) and the

> one

> > drug I have rarely paused is doxy.

> >

> > METHODS: FOr me a year of doxy seems to kick ass. Since you seem

> to

> > overlook whats going on in your backyard with me and Barb its

hard

> to

> > credit that you have really made a good survey of people claiming

> cure

> > over at lymenet or whatever. How do you explain why so many

people

> are

> > never the same after erythema migrans? How is that " fashionable " ?

> Are

> > you referring to the current fashion amongst borreliae of

> infecting

> > humans and running them into the ground?

> >

> > RESULTS: Lemme know if you dont/wouldnt, like everyone else,

> typically

> > require hours at the scope to demonstrate a single organism in

> > tertiary syphilis. The spirochetoses just arent understood, but

> that

> > doesnt mean the evidence doesnt make for a seriously strong

> disease

> > model nonetheless. What do you think of the whipple disease

> bacillus

> > being cultured repeatably for the first time only in 2000? How

> bout

> > leprosy? How about the unculturable microbe of human uveitis that

> > killed inoculated mice after 6 months? I'm not sure how they

> decided,

> > but most people with microbio PhDs seem to think that most *soil*

> > organisms are presently inculturable - not even talking obligate

> > parasites here with their reduced genomes.

> >

> > CONCLUSION: Koch was definitely the man, thing is he rode

> to

> > work in the morning on a dinosaur and his postulate pertaining to

> pure

> > culture is now one zillion percent obsolete.

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I've been hearing this culturing thing is going to happen any

minute, for over a year now. What IS up with that?

penny

> " Actually jason really put Igenex thru the ringer last time this

> come up and he claimed they are working on cultures and

> sensitivities according to his back door emails. "

>

> Tony - Whaddya mean here?

> Barb

>

[Guest guest]

Barb

Using a microsocope and commonense is very hard to beat. ACTUALLY, A

picture is worth a thousand words- in the business of ill health as

well.There's no bacteria in medical circles that threatens lives

that's treated like this Bb thing. The tools they have that's all

they can work with? I can't say that's even close to true, most

mycoplasma labs know they are running semi scams and generally hide

behind closed doors when it comes to all this stuff.Exercise your

phone finger like I learned early in the disease, and believe me I

was fortuante on many occasions to speak to the lab person doing the

PCR work.The first query I asked was what mycoplasma's are you

finding in your arthritic tests. She couldn't answer this question.I

mean they do PCR for mycoplasma infections in arthritis patients for

at least a few years and the tech can't give you any idea as to what

is beiung found.

50 patients from a canadian group do the nicholson protocol exactly

like it's been taught and 48 fare no better if not lots worse and 2

possbly note improvement after six months. Trev from the other side

has his sarc friends dying only doing doxy (often long term).

These are facts and worth a lot of consideration before we blindly

give these mycoplamsarols any credit.I also recall penny going to

california's best mycoplasma doctor and he no longer bothers to

torture his patients with antibiotic treatments preffering to sell

them mycoplasma supplements.What, don't you guys come across these

types of posts?

You know yourself where modern medicine sits, but it'a actualluy not

true they won't do cultures, a gran friend from san diego had to

have sinus surgery (polyps), anyways the doctor cultures and

cultures and cultures till she gets her well. The usual culprits

that discomfort us- surprisingly are discomforting her.

> > > BACKGROUND: Tony ask Barb if she wishes shed dispensed with

> > > tetracyclines. I dont think so. I am back to working 12, 14

hour

> > days

> > > sometimes after only 11 months, (am a full time student) and

the

> > one

> > > drug I have rarely paused is doxy.

> > >

> > > METHODS: FOr me a year of doxy seems to kick ass. Since you

seem

> > to

> > > overlook whats going on in your backyard with me and Barb its

> hard

> > to

> > > credit that you have really made a good survey of people

claiming

> > cure

> > > over at lymenet or whatever. How do you explain why so many

> people

> > are

> > > never the same after erythema migrans? How is

that " fashionable " ?

> > Are

> > > you referring to the current fashion amongst borreliae of

> > infecting

> > > humans and running them into the ground?

> > >

> > > RESULTS: Lemme know if you dont/wouldnt, like everyone else,

> > typically

> > > require hours at the scope to demonstrate a single organism in

> > > tertiary syphilis. The spirochetoses just arent understood,

but

> > that

> > > doesnt mean the evidence doesnt make for a seriously strong

> > disease

> > > model nonetheless. What do you think of the whipple disease

> > bacillus

> > > being cultured repeatably for the first time only in 2000? How

> > bout

> > > leprosy? How about the unculturable microbe of human uveitis

that

> > > killed inoculated mice after 6 months? I'm not sure how they

> > decided,

> > > but most people with microbio PhDs seem to think that most

*soil*

> > > organisms are presently inculturable - not even talking

obligate

> > > parasites here with their reduced genomes.

> > >

> > > CONCLUSION: Koch was definitely the man, thing is he

rode

> > to

> > > work in the morning on a dinosaur and his postulate pertaining

to

> > pure

> > > culture is now one zillion percent obsolete.

[Guest guest]

They can cultivate Bb at Igenex and possably when the money dries up

may actually startgrowing the Bb instead of guesstimating your Bb.

> > > BACKGROUND: Tony ask Barb if she wishes shed dispensed with

> > > tetracyclines. I dont think so. I am back to working 12, 14

hour

> > days

> > > sometimes after only 11 months, (am a full time student) and

the

> > one

> > > drug I have rarely paused is doxy.

> > >

> > > METHODS: FOr me a year of doxy seems to kick ass. Since you

seem

> > to

> > > overlook whats going on in your backyard with me and Barb its

> hard

> > to

> > > credit that you have really made a good survey of people

claiming

> > cure

> > > over at lymenet or whatever. How do you explain why so many

> people

> > are

> > > never the same after erythema migrans? How is

that " fashionable " ?

> > Are

> > > you referring to the current fashion amongst borreliae of

> > infecting

> > > humans and running them into the ground?

> > >

> > > RESULTS: Lemme know if you dont/wouldnt, like everyone else,

> > typically

> > > require hours at the scope to demonstrate a single organism in

> > > tertiary syphilis. The spirochetoses just arent understood,

but

> > that

> > > doesnt mean the evidence doesnt make for a seriously strong

> > disease

> > > model nonetheless. What do you think of the whipple disease

> > bacillus

> > > being cultured repeatably for the first time only in 2000? How

> > bout

> > > leprosy? How about the unculturable microbe of human uveitis

that

> > > killed inoculated mice after 6 months? I'm not sure how they

> > decided,

> > > but most people with microbio PhDs seem to think that most

*soil*

> > > organisms are presently inculturable - not even talking

obligate

> > > parasites here with their reduced genomes.

> > >

> > > CONCLUSION: Koch was definitely the man, thing is he

rode

> > to

> > > work in the morning on a dinosaur and his postulate pertaining

to

> > pure

> > > culture is now one zillion percent obsolete.

[Guest guest]

Tony, you know very well it's not that easy. We're all in shock that

we have even found an ENT in San Diego who will culture and follow

through the way this doc does. Barb's right. It takes a lot of

persistence and tenacity to find such docs. But they do exist, like

needles exist in hay stacks. Well, maybe needles in toupees. You

still have to search carefully if you don't want to get gouged.

However, if people didn't keep harping on getting cultures, then

nobody would even know to try, which is even worse than getting

gouged. I'm grateful that Tarello and NewCastle harped for as long

as they did, even if they've given up. My treatment success is a

direct result of their efforts. And also allows me to recognize the

tremendous service this San Diego doc is doing us.

penny

>

> Barb

> You know yourself where modern medicine sits, but it'a actualluy

not true they won't do cultures, a gran friend from san diego had

to have sinus surgery (polyps), anyways the doctor cultures and

> cultures and cultures till she gets her well. The usual culprits

> that discomfort us- surprisingly are discomforting her.

>

[Guest guest]

How do you know? Most people (researchers) have only 25-75% success

culturing from EM (whether the center or the leading edge), and from

the chronic disease lower success would be expected.

Theres a lab in Cali offering Bb culture right now.

> They can cultivate Bb at Igenex and possably when the money dries up

> may actually startgrowing the Bb instead of guesstimating your Bb.

>

[Guest guest]

Whoa, really? Where? Who are they? I'd definitely be interested in

looking into this. If you could culture the organisms and see how they

respond to various abx, that would put us light years ahead when it

comes to treatment.

penny

" " <usenethod@y...> wrote:

> Theres a lab in Cali offering Bb culture right now.

[Guest guest]

-

Hear, hear! It takes only cursory knowledge of

microbiology lets you know that much that ails us

can't be readily cultured, seen with a microscope or

on a smear.

Tony- your insistence that nothing but cultures and

smears has validity is as reductionistic and

simplistic as the ignorant doc's who won't accept that

anything is wrong with a patient if it doesn't fit

into their predetermined box. Your logic is

syllogistic: because you have helped people through

your methods, only those methods are the helpful ones?

I think your tone and put downs of others are

obfuscation and excuse for bullying. If you're

questioned, you go off on a rant, as if your email

screaming will drown out what you don't like to hear.

Penny- I get you (ie your postings make sense to me),

but I don't get your constant defense of Tony's

obnoxiousness. I'm a big boy, and I can S.O.B. and do,

often. I also can take whatever reaction or rant I am

likely to trigger in Tony. And he can post as much as

he wishes. But all too many times that the

" discussion " degenerates on this list and Tony is part

of that. So is 's sarcasm, and whatever elementary

school sandbox those two get in whenever they address

each other. Tone does matter, at least to me. It's

what creates the spirit of a community. It's what

makes it possible to raise questions, question

information and approaches, and sort the information

from the personalities. It's not irrelevant.

Witness where a lot of you folks came from, the MP

list, and how the authoritative turned authoritarian

and bullying. You excuse Tony's " antics " while calling

others " passive aggressive " (why? because they don't

scream and yell?) Is " You sound like a turkey the way

you carry on. " and " Also Mr. smarty pants " " Wake up

and get your finger out of your arse " and " Also Mr.

wiseman " all okay just because he''s " off-the-cuff " or

" less literate? " Everything is bullshit because he

thinks so, and it's okay because he's helped people,

but others who wish to have normal discourse are

passive-aggressive? Come on.

My two cents,

Jim

Message: 16

Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 03:38:52 -0000

From: " " <usenethod@...>

Subject: Re: Igenex targeted, Tony stuff.

BACKGROUND: Tony ask Barb if she wishes shed dispensed

with

tetracyclines. I dont think so. I am back to working

12, 14 hour days

sometimes after only 11 months, (am a full time

student) and the one

drug I have rarely paused is doxy.

METHODS: FOr me a year of doxy seems to kick ass.

Since you seem to

overlook whats going on in your backyard with me and

Barb its hard to

credit that you have really made a good survey of

people claiming cure

over at lymenet or whatever. How do you explain why so

many people are

never the same after erythema migrans? How is that

" fashionable " ? Are

you referring to the current fashion amongst borreliae

of infecting

humans and running them into the ground?

RESULTS: Lemme know if you dont/wouldnt, like everyone

else, typically

require hours at the scope to demonstrate a single

organism in

tertiary syphilis. The spirochetoses just arent

understood, but that

doesnt mean the evidence doesnt make for a seriously

strong disease

model nonetheless. What do you think of the whipple

disease bacillus

being cultured repeatably for the first time only in

2000? How bout

leprosy? How about the unculturable microbe of human

uveitis that

killed inoculated mice after 6 months? I'm not sure

how they decided,

but most people with microbio PhDs seem to think that

most *soil*

organisms are presently inculturable - not even

talking obligate

parasites here with their reduced genomes.

CONCLUSION: Koch was definitely the man, thing

is he rode to

work in the morning on a dinosaur and his postulate

pertaining to pure

culture is now one zillion percent obsolete.

[Guest guest]

Jim

'Half the autoimmune people can't STEAL a lyme positive from anyone

and they have the exact same symptoms?I'm sure if you see a picture

that's worth a thousand words you'd find it hard to walk on by and

follow conspiracy rhetoric.

Basically most of what I have added has gone on by. BUT the fact

that people are more aware to do multiple antibiotics and not take

the herxing thing as gospel is possably the only thing that rings

good.

Also the fact that we have been fortunate to have had plenty of

information as to people's bone biopsies is also something ignored-

.. But this paints a different picture. The distant sites yield

identical bone marrow bacteria in all that have been biopsied.MAny

do correct science and everyone is ignoring it.Also treatment isn't

easy many need many surgeries, and even then you can't cut out the

damage the infection has caused.

You then have a university team with 16 years of going after the

bacteria, explaining the toxins and there relationships to pain and

depression and doing the most microbiology on thousands of patients

around the world...How much clearer can anyone make the microbiology

of cfs and damaging toxins than this group. If there was acid fast

or other species of bacteria there was no way they could be

missed.There explanation of the toxic molecule being produced and

it's size is also unique- you have the smoking gun. The problem for

me was that they were only interested in research and not BIG

TREATMENT.I came to the same conclusion after testing thru normal

channels and only after an 8 to 12 month period of ilness did I

discover that this group existed.

You then spend the last few years on forums that get to the core of

the problem by doing plenty of pathology and scanning and you become

advanced as to what's going on.It's unfortuante that western

medicine has gone away from third world medicine drawing a line in

the sand as far as there belief being we don't get problems in our

blood streamIMO.Unfortuantely we do and it stems from our bone

marrow often.IMO.

> -

> Hear, hear! It takes only cursory knowledge of

> microbiology lets you know that much that ails us

> can't be readily cultured, seen with a microscope or

> on a smear.

>

> Tony- your insistence that nothing but cultures and

> smears has validity is as reductionistic and

> simplistic as the ignorant doc's who won't accept that

> anything is wrong with a patient if it doesn't fit

> into their predetermined box. Your logic is

> syllogistic: because you have helped people through

> your methods, only those methods are the helpful ones?

> I think your tone and put downs of others are

> obfuscation and excuse for bullying. If you're

> questioned, you go off on a rant, as if your email

> screaming will drown out what you don't like to hear.

>

> Penny- I get you (ie your postings make sense to me),

> but I don't get your constant defense of Tony's

> obnoxiousness. I'm a big boy, and I can S.O.B. and do,

> often. I also can take whatever reaction or rant I am

> likely to trigger in Tony. And he can post as much as

> he wishes. But all too many times that the

> " discussion " degenerates on this list and Tony is part

> of that. So is 's sarcasm, and whatever elementary

> school sandbox those two get in whenever they address

> each other. Tone does matter, at least to me. It's

> what creates the spirit of a community. It's what

> makes it possible to raise questions, question

> information and approaches, and sort the information

> from the personalities. It's not irrelevant.

>

> Witness where a lot of you folks came from, the MP

> list, and how the authoritative turned authoritarian

> and bullying. You excuse Tony's " antics " while calling

> others " passive aggressive " (why? because they don't

> scream and yell?) Is " You sound like a turkey the way

> you carry on. " and " Also Mr. smarty pants " " Wake up

> and get your finger out of your arse " and " Also Mr.

> wiseman " all okay just because he''s " off-the-cuff " or

> " less literate? " Everything is bullshit because he

> thinks so, and it's okay because he's helped people,

> but others who wish to have normal discourse are

> passive-aggressive? Come on.

>

> My two cents,

> Jim

>

> Message: 16

> Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 03:38:52 -0000

> From: " " <usenethod@y...>

> Subject: Re: Igenex targeted, Tony stuff.

>

> BACKGROUND: Tony ask Barb if she wishes shed dispensed

> with

> tetracyclines. I dont think so. I am back to working

> 12, 14 hour days

> sometimes after only 11 months, (am a full time

> student) and the one

> drug I have rarely paused is doxy.

>

> METHODS: FOr me a year of doxy seems to kick ass.

> Since you seem to

> overlook whats going on in your backyard with me and

> Barb its hard to

> credit that you have really made a good survey of

> people claiming cure

> over at lymenet or whatever. How do you explain why so

> many people are

> never the same after erythema migrans? How is that

> " fashionable " ? Are

> you referring to the current fashion amongst borreliae

> of infecting

> humans and running them into the ground?

>

> RESULTS: Lemme know if you dont/wouldnt, like everyone

> else, typically

> require hours at the scope to demonstrate a single

> organism in

> tertiary syphilis. The spirochetoses just arent

> understood, but that

> doesnt mean the evidence doesnt make for a seriously

> strong disease

> model nonetheless. What do you think of the whipple

> disease bacillus

> being cultured repeatably for the first time only in

> 2000? How bout

> leprosy? How about the unculturable microbe of human

> uveitis that

> killed inoculated mice after 6 months? I'm not sure

> how they decided,

> but most people with microbio PhDs seem to think that

> most *soil*

> organisms are presently inculturable - not even

> talking obligate

> parasites here with their reduced genomes.

>

> CONCLUSION: Koch was definitely the man, thing

> is he rode to

> work in the morning on a dinosaur and his postulate

> pertaining to pure

> culture is now one zillion percent obsolete.

[Guest guest]

Tony, I think you are brilliantly right in everything but the

tickborne illnesses, you'd have to GET one to know what it does to

hijack your system, particularly if you get babesia AND borrelia in

one dose or in a couple tickbites, either way, if you get those two

together its like getting syphilis and malaria, essentially. They are

so globally debilitating and so suppressive to immunity and overall

body function that they devastate, disable and sometimes kill. Take

the example of Wyatt Sexton, here

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/sports/college/a1c_sexton_09

01.html

He was fine, a healthy football player before he got lyme. It

shouldn't even be called lyme, that is the most idiotic name. Names

have such power to alarm or stupefy. " West Nile " --the name alone

scares people, like " SARS " , but " FLU " which is more dangerous,

doesn't. " Lyme " is much less scary than " tickborne syphilis "

or " tickborne malaria " or some name that would really explain what it

is.

That is my opinion. YOu understand SO MUCH about microbiology but

really, these bugs are very bad.

> > BACKGROUND: Tony ask Barb if she wishes shed dispensed with

> > tetracyclines. I dont think so. I am back to working 12, 14 hour

> days

> > sometimes after only 11 months, (am a full time student) and the

> one

> > drug I have rarely paused is doxy.

> >

> > METHODS: FOr me a year of doxy seems to kick ass. Since you seem

> to

> > overlook whats going on in your backyard with me and Barb its

hard

> to

> > credit that you have really made a good survey of people claiming

> cure

> > over at lymenet or whatever. How do you explain why so many

people

> are

> > never the same after erythema migrans? How is that " fashionable " ?

> Are

> > you referring to the current fashion amongst borreliae of

> infecting

> > humans and running them into the ground?

> >

> > RESULTS: Lemme know if you dont/wouldnt, like everyone else,

> typically

> > require hours at the scope to demonstrate a single organism in

> > tertiary syphilis. The spirochetoses just arent understood, but

> that

> > doesnt mean the evidence doesnt make for a seriously strong

> disease

> > model nonetheless. What do you think of the whipple disease

> bacillus

> > being cultured repeatably for the first time only in 2000? How

> bout

> > leprosy? How about the unculturable microbe of human uveitis that

> > killed inoculated mice after 6 months? I'm not sure how they

> decided,

> > but most people with microbio PhDs seem to think that most *soil*

> > organisms are presently inculturable - not even talking obligate

> > parasites here with their reduced genomes.

> >

> > CONCLUSION: Koch was definitely the man, thing is he rode

> to

> > work in the morning on a dinosaur and his postulate pertaining to

> pure

> > culture is now one zillion percent obsolete.

[Guest guest]

Hear Hear, Penny. I have to really wonder somethimes how and why our

world became so darned intolerant? Tony is unique, special, so are

you Penny, and Jill and everyone here. Some people have style and

others have... well, style, and like you said, we're all here to

figure this mess out.

I may be showing my age here, but I remember when people were a heck

of a lot more tolerant and compasionate and understanding of each

other's quirks. Maybe it's the cookie cutter schools we have now

that breed it.

Anyway, thanks.

*S*

> I agree, we don't tolerate personal attacks, BUT...do you know

what

> it really comes down to? Tony's " attacks " just aren't as skillful

or

> as passive agressive as some people's. He talks off-the-cuff, and

is

> definitely politically incorrect, but he's never calculating or

> conniving and he'd do absolutely anything to help anyone who

needed

> it, regardless of the cost to himself. He'd never hold back

anything

> that he thinks might help even a single person. Because of that,

and

> because I've actually seen him help a lot of people in a very real

> way, more than anyone else I know, I've never had a problem with

his

> antics. They don't really hurt anyone, except perhaps they bruise

> some people's egos.

[Guest guest]

Sue

Thanks for that. It's this type of attitude I also take into my

doctors office and I can't change what has been success.By the way

my rant with you come about becuase we were smarter than sitting in

cfs lala land and went onto informative forums where people shared

there disastrous discoveries.(dental)

I also posted you that one person that claimed if she left well

enough alone (amalgam removal) she would have been fine.Plus there

where many others.

Our passions moved away from fibro/cfs/candida/lyme forums to where

the explanations came in graphical detail. We then felt absolutely

comfortable to have the INFLAMMATION INFECTION label added to the

mess we are all so comfortable with.

Cheers tony

> > I agree, we don't tolerate personal attacks, BUT...do you know

> what

> > it really comes down to? Tony's " attacks " just aren't as

skillful

> or

> > as passive agressive as some people's. He talks off-the-cuff,

and

> is

> > definitely politically incorrect, but he's never calculating or

> > conniving and he'd do absolutely anything to help anyone who

> needed

> > it, regardless of the cost to himself. He'd never hold back

> anything

> > that he thinks might help even a single person. Because of that,

> and

> > because I've actually seen him help a lot of people in a very

real

> > way, more than anyone else I know, I've never had a problem with

> his

> > antics. They don't really hurt anyone, except perhaps they

bruise

> > some people's egos.