Guest guest Posted September 5, 2005 Report Share Posted September 5, 2005 This one would seem to support strongly the conclusion that the distribution/form/mechanics of even *acute* Bb infections are very different in humans than in gerbils. THat would obviously be of high importance. However - look at the doses used to cure the gerbils - waaaay higher /kg than those used on the humans. This is not the first time Ive seen what looks like huge doses, on a per kilogram basis, tested on rodents. (I'm talking about infection clearance studies, not toxicity studies, which of course involve immense doses for understandable reasons.) Does anyone know why people give 25 mg/kg of roxy to an experimentally infected gerbil when no human is going to be taking that much? Are rodents somehow metabolizing all abx way way faster than we are, or for some other reason need a huge dose to get the same serum concentrations we get? =================================================== Acta Derm Venereol. 1992 Aug;72(4):297-300. Roxithromycin in Lyme borreliosis: discrepant results of an in vitro and in vivo animal susceptibility study and a clinical trial in patients with erythema migrans. Hansen K, Hovmark A, Lebech AM, Lebech K, Olsson I, Halkier-Sorensen L, Olsson E, Asbrink E. Department of Infection-Immunology, Statens Seruminstitut, Copenhagen, Denmark. A new semisynthetic macrolide roxithromycin was evaluated for its potential use in the treatment of Lyme borreliosis. Using a macro- dilution broth technique, Borrelia burgdorferi was shown to be susceptible to roxithromycin with a minimal bactericidal concentration (MBC) of 0.06-0.25 microgram/ml. A systemic B. burgdorferi infection was established in gerbils; a dosage of greater than or equal to 25 mg/kg/day roxithromycin for 10 days eliminated the infection. A single blind, randomized multicenter study was performed to evaluate the efficacy of roxithromycin 150 mg b.i.d. versus phenoxymethyl-penicillin 1 g b.i.d. for 10 days in patients with uncomplicated erythema migrans. The study was interrupted when 19 patients had enrolled because of five treatment failures. All 5 patients had received roxithromycin; three patients had persisting or recurrent erythema migrans, one developed a secondary erythema migrans-like lesion and severe arthralgia and one developed neuroborreliosis. B. burgdorferi was isolated from skin biopsies after roxithromycin therapy from two patients with persistent erythema migrans and both isolates were still highly susceptible to roxithromycin (MBC = 0.03 microgram/ml). No treatment failures were seen in 10 patients treated with phenoxymethyl-penicillin. Roxithromycin is thus not recommended for treatment of Lyme borreliosis. Publication Types: Clinical Trial Multicenter Study Randomized Controlled Trial PMID: 1357894 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2005 Report Share Posted September 5, 2005 I found that the dosing levels used by doctor's in pill antibiotics ain't cutting it. Healthy people seem to attack the same infection constantly in antibiotic waves for years on end.(close relative)Many of my observations of anyone tackling infection seem not to get the job done.I find that the immune system possably covers the doctor 9 times out of 10- wherever this is possable.We fall out because our immune system doesn't exist in the quagmire of our blood. > This one would seem to support strongly the conclusion that the > distribution/form/mechanics of even *acute* Bb infections are very > different in humans than in gerbils. > > THat would obviously be of high importance. > > However - look at the doses used to cure the gerbils - waaaay > higher /kg than those used on the humans. This is not the first time > Ive seen what looks like huge doses, on a per kilogram basis, tested > on rodents. (I'm talking about infection clearance studies, not > toxicity studies, which of course involve immense doses for > understandable reasons.) Does anyone know why people give 25 mg/kg of > roxy to an experimentally infected gerbil when no human is going to > be taking that much? Are rodents somehow metabolizing all abx way way > faster than we are, or for some other reason need a huge dose to get > the same serum concentrations we get? > > =================================================== > > Acta Derm Venereol. 1992 Aug;72(4):297-300. > > Roxithromycin in Lyme borreliosis: discrepant results of an in vitro > and in vivo animal susceptibility study and a clinical trial in > patients with erythema migrans. > > Hansen K, Hovmark A, Lebech AM, Lebech K, Olsson I, Halkier- Sorensen > L, Olsson E, Asbrink E. > > Department of Infection-Immunology, Statens Seruminstitut, > Copenhagen, Denmark. > > A new semisynthetic macrolide roxithromycin was evaluated for its > potential use in the treatment of Lyme borreliosis. Using a macro- > dilution broth technique, Borrelia burgdorferi was shown to be > susceptible to roxithromycin with a minimal bactericidal > concentration (MBC) of 0.06-0.25 microgram/ml. A systemic B. > burgdorferi infection was established in gerbils; a dosage of greater > than or equal to 25 mg/kg/day roxithromycin for 10 days eliminated > the infection. A single blind, randomized multicenter study was > performed to evaluate the efficacy of roxithromycin 150 mg b.i.d. > versus phenoxymethyl-penicillin 1 g b.i.d. for 10 days in patients > with uncomplicated erythema migrans. The study was interrupted when > 19 patients had enrolled because of five treatment failures. All 5 > patients had received roxithromycin; three patients had persisting or > recurrent erythema migrans, one developed a secondary erythema > migrans-like lesion and severe arthralgia and one developed > neuroborreliosis. B. burgdorferi was isolated from skin biopsies > after roxithromycin therapy from two patients with persistent > erythema migrans and both isolates were still highly susceptible to > roxithromycin (MBC = 0.03 microgram/ml). No treatment failures were > seen in 10 patients treated with phenoxymethyl-penicillin. > Roxithromycin is thus not recommended for treatment of Lyme > borreliosis. > > Publication Types: > Clinical Trial > Multicenter Study > Randomized Controlled Trial > > PMID: 1357894 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2005 Report Share Posted September 5, 2005 , Yes, I remarked on this when I was trying to work out dosages for something or other and I was told that rodents did require higher doses per weight. Too lazy to check it out but that was defintely the answer I got Look at the full-text version of "the hamster study" that Jill and I are closely looking at at the moment re Babesia treatment and tell me what you think of the doses used, they seem HUGE (for not very good results, in fact, eradication of babesias being measured by surpassaging into healthy hamsters) http://aac.asm.org/cgi/reprint/41/1/91.pdf Nelly [infections] assorted This one would seem to support strongly the conclusion that the distribution/form/mechanics of even *acute* Bb infections are very different in humans than in gerbils.THat would obviously be of high importance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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