Re: Quinovic acid v. quinolones

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I get that. BUT...people keep reporting tendon problems. So

what's up with that? Since most of the Samento evidence is anecdotal

anyway, why are those tendon reports ignored? I'm not saying it's not

simply a perception issue, but still, those reports should be

investigated, shouldn't they? We've all seen what happens when only

positive reporting is allowed. :-(

penny

" duramater27 " <spam-barb@c...> wrote:

> Quinovic acids are structurally different than are synthetic

quinolones. How they work is somewhat different as are the sorts of

side effects they have. Perhaps can elaborate.

>

> But to equate quinovic acids :: quinolones :: florloquinolones is a

premature stretch...

[Guest guest]

" people keep reporting tendon problems "

A. Does everyone who uses some form of quinovic acid products post on the

internet?

No. Therefore we don't know the proportion of people that report tendon

problems.

(always keep in mind bayesian probability, that is you have to know

baserates...) So

do you know whether the number of " people keep reporting tendon problems " is a

large proportion of people taking QA stuff or a small proportion? If you can't

answer

that question, it doesn't really mean much.

B. People get tendon problems independent of any supplement. Any complaints may

be spurious relative to quinovic acid product intake.

C. Correlation does not imply causation.

In short, it may be related, it may not be. There are not solid studies in any

direction

(stuff that is out there is a sloppy mess, not to be called 'research').

However, in any

case, just because theses items are " quins " of various sorts doesn't mean they

work

(and don't work as the case may be) in the same way.

Azithromycin and erythromycin come from the same family and yet azith doesn't

have

the same QTc problem that erythro does although there are a very few reports of

QTc

with azith. Also, they don't share the same use of liver enzymes, etc. which

all has

implications of how things work and the side effects they yield. All this to

say that

even as " relatives " that mere fact can't guide our thinking in how they may work

and

the side effects they may have.

[Guest guest]

Penny

Very few in comparison with the numbers taking samento are reporting

tendon problems, for some reason there has been a lot of scaremongering

over samento but by just a handful of people. I had a lot of pain

(including tendon) when I first herxed after starting samento, I was

mindful of the issues over tendon damage, but it never happened. Same

with most who use it.

I'm not aware of only positive reporting being allowed on samento,

those who have had problems with it have been quite outspoken and I've

not seen any censorship, just debates.

The upside of samento, and some of the other non ABx options available,

is they can still be effective in low doses or used less frequently;

this can help keep herxing at a manageable level rather than it ending

up becoming overwhelming and counterproductive because the body cannot

excrete the accumulative levels of toxins from die off.

There are those who genuinely cannot tolerate ABx, it's not just a

matter of idealism, they can end up with more serious problems than

they started with through ABx. J's posts here illustrate problems

in the gut, these are not trivial, others have had liver related

problems. In a patient group where allergies and intolerances are rife,

many have bad reactions to them, not " herxes " .

So far, no one had found the one size fits all; I suspect that's

because for many of us other factors have to be taken into before or

whilst treating the infections we have. I now know why I did not cope

with detox protocols and why so many things that should have helped

backfired badly on me, it took widening my horizons. As a result if I

do opt for ABx or even anti fungals, I want them to be the right ones

to avoid more and future resistance problems.

Cheers, Tansy

>

> > Quinovic acids are structurally different than are synthetic

> quinolones. How they work is somewhat different as are the sorts of

> side effects they have. Perhaps can elaborate.

> >

> > But to equate quinovic acids :: quinolones :: florloquinolones is a

> premature stretch...

[Guest guest]

Many years ago, my father had a partial tear in the achilles tendon

after a month on an abx cocktail for h. pylori...

Knowing that my Dad had never had a tendon problem before or

after, indicates to me he had the drug side-effect... but it wasn't

reported to the drug company.

So- it's difficult to know how many people really do have this

side effect when it's not getting officially reported.

Barb

> >

> > > Quinovic acids are structurally different than are synthetic

> > quinolones.  How they work is somewhat different as are the sorts

of

> > side effects they have.  Perhaps   can elaborate.

> > >

> > > But to equate quinovic acids :: quinolones :: florloquinolones

is a

> > premature stretch...