Re: Cpn, Serology, Tini, etc

[Guest guest]

Penny-

Cpn serology is useful... depending. If you have

elevated IGM way out of proportion, or IGA indicating

an acute infection, or both IGA and IGM it is

significant. But general blood titers only show up in

an acute infection, or if you are sampling the tissue

infected (e.g. cerebrospinal fluid in to pick it up in

MS). Serology does not a diagnosis make, although it

may be one of the evidentiary sources for a diagnosis.

See the quote below for more.

I have tried charcoal, and the Entreclenz-- truly the

only way to deliver the high dose of charcoal! But the

Vit C Flush works better for me. Currently I'm on doxy

+ zith and tini pulses (500mg x 2) 5 days every three

weeks. I'm adding in amoxy slowly (a significant kick

from it).

What's improved since I've been on this (since Nov

04)? Significantly less inflammation and pain, lower

cholesterol and better ratio (apparently you use

cholesterol to bind Cpn endotoxin see

http://www.jlr.org/cgi/content/full/44/12/2339?maxtoshow= & HITS=10 & hits=10 & RESULT\

FORMAT= & author1=Kitchens & andorexactfulltext=and & searchid=1124594832631_596 & store\

d_search= & FIRSTINDEX=0 & resourcetype=1 & journalcode=jlr),

CRP is normal (was elevated into high risk) less

fatigue, less back pain. I'd say a 40% improvement in

these symptoms. Brain fog has not yet changed.

Kate-

What dose of Tini are you using? When I switched to it

my doc was clueless about dosage, so at

Wheldon's suggestion I've been taking 500mg twice a

day during the pulses. I'd be curious if I should go a

bit higher.

The reason Flagyl is pulsed is that in Cpn the regular

abx which you take continuously prevent replication

and create a " stringent " response in the bacterium,

driving it into it's non-replicating intracellular

form where it can be killed by an anaerobic agent like

Flagyl. You pulse it, because Flagyl is often not well

tolerated and in longer courses can have problematic

side effects (like peripheral neuropathy). So shorter

courses on a regular basis is often better tolerated

and less likely to cause side effects. I've seen

Lyme's doc's do this also, usually longer pulses of

7-10 days at the end of each month. But I don't think

the regular abx are understood to drive Lyme's into

cystic phase, or at least not in anything I've seen.

From:

http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514269853/html/x467.html

2.2.8.2. Serology

So far, serology has been the most frequently used

method for diagnosing C. pneumoniae infections. The

best serological evidence of acute infection is a

four-fold rise in IgG or IgA antibody titer between

paired sera taken several weeks apart. A positive IgM

antibody titre is also considered a marker of a

current or recent infection. In primary infection, IgM

antibodies are produced about 3 weeks after the onset

of the illness, whereas IgG and IgA antibodies may not

appear until 6–8 weeks after onset. In reinfection, on

the other hand, IgM antibodies appear only at low

titers, if at all. IgG and IgA titers rise quickly,

within 1 or 2 weeks, and may reach very high levels.

IgM titre usually begins to fall within 2 months and

disappears within 4–6 months. IgA antibodies also have

a short half-life, whereas IgG antibodies persist in

the body and may be detectable for more than 3 years.

Especially older patients, who have probably had

multiple C. pneumoniae infections, may have

persistently high IgG titers. (Reviewed in Kuo et al.

1995)

Serology is an inadequate indicator of chronic

infection (Saikku 1999). It does not indicate the

locality of the possible chronic process, and the high

frequency of C. pneumoniae antibodies in people makes

it difficult to prove an association with a specific

disease. In spite of these problems, continuously

elevated antibody titers have been considered a

reliable marker of chronic infection (reviewed by

Saikku 1999). Persistent production of IgA antibodies,

compared to long-lasting IgG antibodies, seems to be a

better marker in chronic infections (Saikku et al.

1992, Laurila et al. 1997a, Laurila et al. 1997b).

[Guest guest]

Penny-

Cpn serology is useful... depending. If you have

elevated IGM way out of proportion, or IGA indicating

an acute infection, or both IGA and IGM it is

significant. But general blood titers only show up in

an acute infection, or if you are sampling the tissue

infected (e.g. cerebrospinal fluid in to pick it up in

MS). Serology does not a diagnosis make, although it

may be one of the evidentiary sources for a diagnosis.

See the quote below for more.

I have tried charcoal, and the Entreclenz-- truly the

only way to deliver the high dose of charcoal! But the

Vit C Flush works better for me. Currently I'm on doxy

+ zith and tini pulses (500mg x 2) 5 days every three

weeks. I'm adding in amoxy slowly (a significant kick

from it).

What's improved since I've been on this (since Nov

04)? Significantly less inflammation and pain, lower

cholesterol and better ratio (apparently you use

cholesterol to bind Cpn endotoxin see

http://www.jlr.org/cgi/content/full/44/12/2339?maxtoshow= & HITS=10 & hits=10 & RESULT\

FORMAT= & author1=Kitchens & andorexactfulltext=and & searchid=1124594832631_596 & store\

d_search= & FIRSTINDEX=0 & resourcetype=1 & journalcode=jlr),

CRP is normal (was elevated into high risk) less

fatigue, less back pain. I'd say a 40% improvement in

these symptoms. Brain fog has not yet changed.

Kate-

What dose of Tini are you using? When I switched to it

my doc was clueless about dosage, so at

Wheldon's suggestion I've been taking 500mg twice a

day during the pulses. I'd be curious if I should go a

bit higher.

The reason Flagyl is pulsed is that in Cpn the regular

abx which you take continuously prevent replication

and create a " stringent " response in the bacterium,

driving it into it's non-replicating intracellular

form where it can be killed by an anaerobic agent like

Flagyl. You pulse it, because Flagyl is often not well

tolerated and in longer courses can have problematic

side effects (like peripheral neuropathy). So shorter

courses on a regular basis is often better tolerated

and less likely to cause side effects. I've seen

Lyme's doc's do this also, usually longer pulses of

7-10 days at the end of each month. But I don't think

the regular abx are understood to drive Lyme's into

cystic phase, or at least not in anything I've seen.

From:

http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514269853/html/x467.html

2.2.8.2. Serology

So far, serology has been the most frequently used

method for diagnosing C. pneumoniae infections. The

best serological evidence of acute infection is a

four-fold rise in IgG or IgA antibody titer between

paired sera taken several weeks apart. A positive IgM

antibody titre is also considered a marker of a

current or recent infection. In primary infection, IgM

antibodies are produced about 3 weeks after the onset

of the illness, whereas IgG and IgA antibodies may not

appear until 6–8 weeks after onset. In reinfection, on

the other hand, IgM antibodies appear only at low

titers, if at all. IgG and IgA titers rise quickly,

within 1 or 2 weeks, and may reach very high levels.

IgM titre usually begins to fall within 2 months and

disappears within 4–6 months. IgA antibodies also have

a short half-life, whereas IgG antibodies persist in

the body and may be detectable for more than 3 years.

Especially older patients, who have probably had

multiple C. pneumoniae infections, may have

persistently high IgG titers. (Reviewed in Kuo et al.

1995)

Serology is an inadequate indicator of chronic

infection (Saikku 1999). It does not indicate the

locality of the possible chronic process, and the high

frequency of C. pneumoniae antibodies in people makes

it difficult to prove an association with a specific

disease. In spite of these problems, continuously

elevated antibody titers have been considered a

reliable marker of chronic infection (reviewed by

Saikku 1999). Persistent production of IgA antibodies,

compared to long-lasting IgG antibodies, seems to be a

better marker in chronic infections (Saikku et al.

1992, Laurila et al. 1997a, Laurila et al. 1997b).

[Guest guest]

Interesting about the cholesterol/endotoxin relationship. My last

lab reports are now showing much worse cholesterol levels. The new

development being a bad hdl/ldl ratio since both are now high. The

recommendation is to consider treatment. Perhaps my cholesterol has

increased to deal with an increase in endotoxin production (caused

by a higher rate of bacterial death?).

I don't know. All I know is I feel much better. :-)

penny

> Penny-

> Cpn serology is useful... depending. If you have

> elevated IGM way out of proportion, or IGA indicating

> an acute infection, or both IGA and IGM it is

> significant. But general blood titers only show up in

> an acute infection, or if you are sampling the tissue

> infected (e.g. cerebrospinal fluid in to pick it up in

> MS). Serology does not a diagnosis make, although it

> may be one of the evidentiary sources for a diagnosis.

> See the quote below for more.

>

> I have tried charcoal, and the Entreclenz-- truly the

> only way to deliver the high dose of charcoal! But the

> Vit C Flush works better for me. Currently I'm on doxy

> + zith and tini pulses (500mg x 2) 5 days every three

> weeks. I'm adding in amoxy slowly (a significant kick

> from it).

> What's improved since I've been on this (since Nov

> 04)? Significantly less inflammation and pain, lower

> cholesterol and better ratio (apparently you use

> cholesterol to bind Cpn endotoxin see

> http://www.jlr.org/cgi/content/full/44/12/2339?

maxtoshow= & HITS=10 & hits=10 & RESULTFORMAT= & author1=Kitchens & andorexactf

ulltext=and & searchid=1124594832631_596 & stored_search= & FIRSTINDEX=0 & re

sourcetype=1 & journalcode=jlr),

> CRP is normal (was elevated into high risk) less

> fatigue, less back pain. I'd say a 40% improvement in

> these symptoms. Brain fog has not yet changed.

>

> Kate-

> What dose of Tini are you using? When I switched to it

> my doc was clueless about dosage, so at

> Wheldon's suggestion I've been taking 500mg twice a

> day during the pulses. I'd be curious if I should go a

> bit higher.

>

> The reason Flagyl is pulsed is that in Cpn the regular

> abx which you take continuously prevent replication

> and create a " stringent " response in the bacterium,

> driving it into it's non-replicating intracellular

> form where it can be killed by an anaerobic agent like

> Flagyl. You pulse it, because Flagyl is often not well

> tolerated and in longer courses can have problematic

> side effects (like peripheral neuropathy). So shorter

> courses on a regular basis is often better tolerated

> and less likely to cause side effects. I've seen

> Lyme's doc's do this also, usually longer pulses of

> 7-10 days at the end of each month. But I don't think

> the regular abx are understood to drive Lyme's into

> cystic phase, or at least not in anything I've seen.

>

> From:

> http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514269853/html/x467.html

> 2.2.8.2. Serology

> So far, serology has been the most frequently used

> method for diagnosing C. pneumoniae infections. The

> best serological evidence of acute infection is a

> four-fold rise in IgG or IgA antibody titer between

> paired sera taken several weeks apart. A positive IgM

> antibody titre is also considered a marker of a

> current or recent infection. In primary infection, IgM

> antibodies are produced about 3 weeks after the onset

> of the illness, whereas IgG and IgA antibodies may not

> appear until 6–8 weeks after onset. In reinfection, on

> the other hand, IgM antibodies appear only at low

> titers, if at all. IgG and IgA titers rise quickly,

> within 1 or 2 weeks, and may reach very high levels.

> IgM titre usually begins to fall within 2 months and

> disappears within 4–6 months. IgA antibodies also have

> a short half-life, whereas IgG antibodies persist in

> the body and may be detectable for more than 3 years.

> Especially older patients, who have probably had

> multiple C. pneumoniae infections, may have

> persistently high IgG titers. (Reviewed in Kuo et al.

> 1995)

> Serology is an inadequate indicator of chronic

> infection (Saikku 1999). It does not indicate the

> locality of the possible chronic process, and the high

> frequency of C. pneumoniae antibodies in people makes

> it difficult to prove an association with a specific

> disease. In spite of these problems, continuously

> elevated antibody titers have been considered a

> reliable marker of chronic infection (reviewed by

> Saikku 1999). Persistent production of IgA antibodies,

> compared to long-lasting IgG antibodies, seems to be a

> better marker in chronic infections (Saikku et al.

> 1992, Laurila et al. 1997a, Laurila et al. 1997b).