Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 Dear Lierre, We have many members of the Weston A. Price Foundation who have had similar experiences--the books and media are just saturated with vegetarian propaganda. I suggest you spend a long time on our website www.westonaprice.org. You will find a lot of your questions answered. Be sure to read Myths and Truths about Beef and Myths and Truths about Vegetarianism. Also read all the articles under Traditional Diets and Facts About Fats. You definitely need to arm yourself with the facts--then find a new circle of friends! Do we have a local chapter in your town? Sally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 Hi. I'm new also and have no advice for you--I just wanted you to know that you are not alone. I'm still trying to sort this all out. Robbins and the Earth Save materials are very appealing because of their deep concern for the environment. It's helped me to know that those in the permaculture and biodynamic farming movements have an equally deep concern for the environment but believe that animals are an important part of a healthy farm and a healthy diet. I'm finding this article on the Beyond Vegetarianism site to be very helpful because the writer is an ex-natural hygienist--a more extreme diet even than vegan. But I haven't arrived at a comfortable place yet in terms of what (and the relative percentages of each) I should eat. I'm wanting to understand how it is that the propaganda for damaged vegetable-based fats as more healthy than animal based fats came to permeate the " health food movement. " Sally rails against the greedy food processors and their efforts to foist dead and damaging psuedo food upon the population. But I've been into " health foods " for over 30 years and ALL writers I've read on the subject are equally aghast at what the food industry has done. So how is it that so many were taken in by the " science " that created the fat scare? All these years, as I read the mainstream press reports about the need for reducing fat etc., I thought the mainstream scientists were finally catching up with what I had been reading all along in the alternative scene. It should not be so difficult to know what constitutes a healthy diet. Why is there so much directly conflicting advice out there among the critics of mainstream food processors? It seems the only thing everyone can agree upon is that white flour and white sugar are bad. Beyond that, one must just decide who to believe or be good at checking references and evaluating research. Like you, I would not even be investigating the NT line of thinking if I was happy with my current state of health. More than one person has asked me, " why is it that the people who are into health foods so often don't look healthy and have little energy and many complaints while people who eat whatever they want from the mainstream seem to be doing just fine? " One of the problems with ascertaining cause and effect is that many difficulties caused by diet take many years to surface. And we only have one lifetime to figure it out. Good luck to all of us. ----- Original Message ----- From: L Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:09 AM Subject: Robbins book Hi, I'm new to this list and joined it partly because of the social isolation I feel trying to eat by the principles in NT. The problem for me is that the circles I move in have " vegetarian " as the default setting, and " vegan " as the state of grace we should strive for. Well, I was a vegan for 18 years--I started when I was just 16--and I got really sick. I won't bore you all with the details but introducing (pastured) meat and raw dairy products have improved my health to a miraculous degree. Getting soy out of my diet was another step forward--for the first time in 20 years I am now menstruating regularly. But giving up veganism is really hard. I feel like someone who joined a fundamentalist religion, had all the answers, and knew that god was on my side. Then something put a crack in the foundation and suddenly maybe the answers aren't so clear so you leave the church. And you feel a lot better, thinking for yourself, accepting that life is not so much black and white but actually a whole lot of gray. But then--you bump into one of your old fundamentalist friends on the street. And after five minutes of conversation, you're convinced that you're going to hell! That's what happened to me yesterday when I went to the library and on the New Titles shelf was Robbin's new book. I can't remember what it's called. Do you all know who he is? He wrote Diet for a New America, which promoted a vegan diet for reasons of health, compassion, and environmentalism. I loved this book and I thought he was really admirable. He's the heir to the Baskin and Robbins ice cream fortune and he gave it all away to charity. So of course I picked up the new book. The first section is all about the health hazards of eating an animal based diet vs. the health benefits of eating a plant based diet. He has this little heading " What We Know " that appears through out, where he lists all the studies that prove how animal products cause heart disease, cancer etc. Now I'm sure that I'm going to go to hell--er, that I'm going to get cancer! Or heart disease, or athersclerosis, or... I keep trying to remind myself how much better I feel--NOTHING could induce me to go back to a vegan diet. It's just that his book is so well documented, all quotes from highly educated doctors who run prestigious professional organizations etc. And I'm having many of the same problems with my friends, who all take it as an article of faith that everyone can and should be vegetarian/vegan. Are any of you ex-vegans/vegetarians? Have you had similar struggles? And are we all going to die terrible deaths from eating animal products? In the new book, Robbins at least says that vegetable oil is to be avoided as well, but that only leaves olive oil. Nobody in my genetic history (northern europe) ever set eyes on an olive tree. They hunted reindeer across the frozen tundra or farmed dairy goats and cows. I keep reminding myself: if animal fats are so bad, how did they all survive to produce me? It's like my whole frame of reference has changed, what I thought was the gospel truth made me ill, and suddenly I don't fit in my social circle like I used to. Any advice? Thanks so much-- Lierre __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 Oops. I forgot to include the link to the article I mentioned: http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/hb/hb-interview1a.shtml A brief summary of the article: A comprehensive 3-part overview written by a former vegetarian for both general and vegetarian audiences that explores what evolution and paleoanthropology can tell us about the diet of our early ancestors. If you're serious about what the scientific evidence says about humanity's natural diet, you'll want to read this series, which the internet's PALEODIET listgroup host and moderator Dean Esmay has called " one of the best things to ever appear on the net on the subject of diet and human evolution. " ----- Original Message ----- From: Dennis Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 12:50 PM Subject: Re: Robbins book Hi. I'm new also and have no advice for you--I just wanted you to know that you are not alone. I'm still trying to sort this all out. Robbins and the Earth Save materials are very appealing because of their deep concern for the environment. It's helped me to know that those in the permaculture and biodynamic farming movements have an equally deep concern for the environment but believe that animals are an important part of a healthy farm and a healthy diet. I'm finding this article on the Beyond Vegetarianism site to be very helpful because the writer is an ex-natural hygienist--a more extreme diet even than vegan. But I haven't arrived at a comfortable place yet in terms of what (and the relative percentages of each) I should eat. I'm wanting to understand how it is that the propaganda for damaged vegetable-based fats as more healthy than animal based fats came to permeate the " health food movement. " Sally rails against the greedy food processors and their efforts to foist dead and damaging psuedo food upon the population. But I've been into " health foods " for over 30 years and ALL writers I've read on the subject are equally aghast at what the food industry has done. So how is it that so many were taken in by the " science " that created the fat scare? All these years, as I read the mainstream press reports about the need for reducing fat etc., I thought the mainstream scientists were finally catching up with what I had been reading all along in the alternative scene. It should not be so difficult to know what constitutes a healthy diet. Why is there so much directly conflicting advice out there among the critics of mainstream food processors? It seems the only thing everyone can agree upon is that white flour and white sugar are bad. Beyond that, one must just decide who to believe or be good at checking references and evaluating research. Like you, I would not even be investigating the NT line of thinking if I was happy with my current state of health. More than one person has asked me, " why is it that the people who are into health foods so often don't look healthy and have little energy and many complaints while people who eat whatever they want from the mainstream seem to be doing just fine? " One of the problems with ascertaining cause and effect is that many difficulties caused by diet take many years to surface. And we only have one lifetime to figure it out. Good luck to all of us. ----- Original Message ----- From: L Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:09 AM Subject: Robbins book Hi, I'm new to this list and joined it partly because of the social isolation I feel trying to eat by the principles in NT. The problem for me is that the circles I move in have " vegetarian " as the default setting, and " vegan " as the state of grace we should strive for. Well, I was a vegan for 18 years--I started when I was just 16--and I got really sick. I won't bore you all with the details but introducing (pastured) meat and raw dairy products have improved my health to a miraculous degree. Getting soy out of my diet was another step forward--for the first time in 20 years I am now menstruating regularly. But giving up veganism is really hard. I feel like someone who joined a fundamentalist religion, had all the answers, and knew that god was on my side. Then something put a crack in the foundation and suddenly maybe the answers aren't so clear so you leave the church. And you feel a lot better, thinking for yourself, accepting that life is not so much black and white but actually a whole lot of gray. But then--you bump into one of your old fundamentalist friends on the street. And after five minutes of conversation, you're convinced that you're going to hell! That's what happened to me yesterday when I went to the library and on the New Titles shelf was Robbin's new book. I can't remember what it's called. Do you all know who he is? He wrote Diet for a New America, which promoted a vegan diet for reasons of health, compassion, and environmentalism. I loved this book and I thought he was really admirable. He's the heir to the Baskin and Robbins ice cream fortune and he gave it all away to charity. So of course I picked up the new book. The first section is all about the health hazards of eating an animal based diet vs. the health benefits of eating a plant based diet. He has this little heading " What We Know " that appears through out, where he lists all the studies that prove how animal products cause heart disease, cancer etc. Now I'm sure that I'm going to go to hell--er, that I'm going to get cancer! Or heart disease, or athersclerosis, or... I keep trying to remind myself how much better I feel--NOTHING could induce me to go back to a vegan diet. It's just that his book is so well documented, all quotes from highly educated doctors who run prestigious professional organizations etc. And I'm having many of the same problems with my friends, who all take it as an article of faith that everyone can and should be vegetarian/vegan. Are any of you ex-vegans/vegetarians? Have you had similar struggles? And are we all going to die terrible deaths from eating animal products? In the new book, Robbins at least says that vegetable oil is to be avoided as well, but that only leaves olive oil. Nobody in my genetic history (northern europe) ever set eyes on an olive tree. They hunted reindeer across the frozen tundra or farmed dairy goats and cows. I keep reminding myself: if animal fats are so bad, how did they all survive to produce me? It's like my whole frame of reference has changed, what I thought was the gospel truth made me ill, and suddenly I don't fit in my social circle like I used to. Any advice? Thanks so much-- Lierre __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 First of all, I love your name! >The problem for me is that the > circles I move in have " vegetarian " as the default > setting, and " vegan " as the state of grace we should > strive for. What a great description. I certainly know my share of those folks, but my family and closest friends are more moderate. >He wrote Diet for a New > America, which promoted a vegan diet for reasons of > health, compassion, and environmentalism. Yes, and I used to buy into that, too. But I've read enough on both sides of the issue now that I've come to the conclusion that the research sited by him and his compadres is extremely biased, and just like most people and organizations promoting their philosophy (mainly those with a religious-type fervor behind it, and many vegans certainly fall into that category, or those with financial motivation), they distort and massage data and statistics to suit their viewpoint, and conveniently ignore anything not supportive to their viewpoint. > I loved > this > book and I thought he was really admirable. He's the > heir to the Baskin and Robbins ice cream fortune and > he gave it all away to charity. Someone can be a good person in some respects and still be delusional. > He has this little heading " What > We > Know " that appears through out, where he lists all > the > studies that prove how animal products cause heart > disease, cancer etc. Some of those very same studies are analyzed in the book The Cholesterol Myths. Have you read it? He shows how the results of the studies were twisted, manipulated, and just plain lied about in order to promote the diet/heart theory, and how the studies showing exactly the opposite of the politically-correct theories are buried, not published, and generally shunned. Whether those politically-correct theories are based on views like Robbins' or on those of the mega-corporations that control the food processing business and are a major source of support for medical organizations, they all have in common the drive to get people away from traditional nutrition. > all quotes from > highly > educated doctors who run prestigious professional > organizations etc. Those doctors are humans, too, with biases that are not any more based on truth than the average person's biases. In fact, I believe anyone who has received a conventional education in Western medicine is far more biased than average, and comes out of medical school with giant blinders and a very stiff neck. After all, they paid a lot for that education, dammit, and don't want to hear that anything they were taught in those hallowed halls is WRONG, so they won't even allow themselves to think about things that may put a chink in their armor. And the medical community at large exerts a tremendous pressure for conformity, and ostracizes anyone who won't conform. > Are any of you ex-vegans/vegetarians? Have you > had > similar struggles? Yes, but to a lesser degree. I was only veggie for a short while. > And are we all going to die > terrible deaths from eating animal products? Ask those ancestors of yours who lived on meat and milk. I imagine the ones living in sanitary conditions (i.e. not overcrowded cities or extreme poverty, both of which promote disease) lived generally healthy, long lives. > Nobody in my genetic history (northern europe) ever > set eyes on an olive tree. They hunted reindeer > across > the frozen tundra or farmed dairy goats and cows. Ditto, only mine were eating oats, cabbages and various meats (ish/German/English) > keep reminding myself: if animal fats are so bad, > how > did they all survive to produce me? It's like my > whole > frame of reference has changed, what I thought was > the > gospel truth made me ill, and suddenly I don't fit > in > my social circle like I used to. Any advice? One of the most helpful things I read during the transition in my thinking was Sally's opinion on page 30 of NT, about the " longing to to return to a former, more perfect state of consciousness " that draws people to veganism, and the spiritual aspects of eating or not eating meat. The last line of that paragraph especially resonated with me: " Seen in this light, strict vegetarianism can be likened to a kind of spiritual pride that seeks to " take heaven by force, " and to shirk the earthly duties for which the physical body was created. " Aubin __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 attached is an article from Science magazine that may help explain the misinformation about dietary fat. The Soft Science of Dietary Fat Taubes Mainstream nutritional science has demonized dietary fat, yet 50 years and hundreds of millions of dollars of research have failed to prove that eating a low-fat diet will help you live longer ----- Original Message ----- From: " Dennis " <nancydancy@...> < > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 1:50 PM Subject: Re: Robbins book Hi. I'm new also and have no advice for you--I just wanted you to know that you are not alone. I'm still trying to sort this all out. Robbins and the Earth Save materials are very appealing because of their deep concern for the environment. It's helped me to know that those in the permaculture and biodynamic farming movements have an equally deep concern for the environment but believe that animals are an important part of a healthy farm and a healthy diet. I'm finding this article on the Beyond Vegetarianism site to be very helpful because the writer is an ex-natural hygienist--a more extreme diet even than vegan. But I haven't arrived at a comfortable place yet in terms of what (and the relative percentages of each) I should eat. I'm wanting to understand how it is that the propaganda for damaged vegetable-based fats as more healthy than animal based fats came to permeate the " health food movement. " Sally rails against the greedy food processors and their efforts to foist dead and damaging psuedo food upon the population. But I've been into " health foods " for over 30 years and ALL writers I've read on the subject are equally aghast at what the food industry has done. So how is it that so many were taken in by the " science " that created the fat scare? All these years, as I read the mainstream press reports about the need for reducing fat etc., I thought the mainstream scientists were finally catching up with what I had been reading all along in the alternative scene. It should not be so difficult to know what constitutes a healthy diet. Why is there so much directly conflicting advice out there among the critics of mainstream food processors? It seems the only thing everyone can agree upon is that white flour and white sugar are bad. Beyond that, one must just decide who to believe or be good at checking references and evaluating research. Like you, I would not even be investigating the NT line of thinking if I was happy with my current state of health. More than one person has asked me, " why is it that the people who are into health foods so often don't look healthy and have little energy and many complaints while people who eat whatever they want from the mainstream seem to be doing just fine? " One of the problems with ascertaining cause and effect is that many difficulties caused by diet take many years to surface. And we only have one lifetime to figure it out. Good luck to all of us. ----- Original Message ----- From: L Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:09 AM Subject: Robbins book Hi, I'm new to this list and joined it partly because of the social isolation I feel trying to eat by the principles in NT. The problem for me is that the circles I move in have " vegetarian " as the default setting, and " vegan " as the state of grace we should strive for. Well, I was a vegan for 18 years--I started when I was just 16--and I got really sick. I won't bore you all with the details but introducing (pastured) meat and raw dairy products have improved my health to a miraculous degree. Getting soy out of my diet was another step forward--for the first time in 20 years I am now menstruating regularly. But giving up veganism is really hard. I feel like someone who joined a fundamentalist religion, had all the answers, and knew that god was on my side. Then something put a crack in the foundation and suddenly maybe the answers aren't so clear so you leave the church. And you feel a lot better, thinking for yourself, accepting that life is not so much black and white but actually a whole lot of gray. But then--you bump into one of your old fundamentalist friends on the street. And after five minutes of conversation, you're convinced that you're going to hell! That's what happened to me yesterday when I went to the library and on the New Titles shelf was Robbin's new book. I can't remember what it's called. Do you all know who he is? He wrote Diet for a New America, which promoted a vegan diet for reasons of health, compassion, and environmentalism. I loved this book and I thought he was really admirable. He's the heir to the Baskin and Robbins ice cream fortune and he gave it all away to charity. So of course I picked up the new book. The first section is all about the health hazards of eating an animal based diet vs. the health benefits of eating a plant based diet. He has this little heading " What We Know " that appears through out, where he lists all the studies that prove how animal products cause heart disease, cancer etc. Now I'm sure that I'm going to go to hell--er, that I'm going to get cancer! Or heart disease, or athersclerosis, or... I keep trying to remind myself how much better I feel--NOTHING could induce me to go back to a vegan diet. It's just that his book is so well documented, all quotes from highly educated doctors who run prestigious professional organizations etc. And I'm having many of the same problems with my friends, who all take it as an article of faith that everyone can and should be vegetarian/vegan. Are any of you ex-vegans/vegetarians? Have you had similar struggles? And are we all going to die terrible deaths from eating animal products? In the new book, Robbins at least says that vegetable oil is to be avoided as well, but that only leaves olive oil. Nobody in my genetic history (northern europe) ever set eyes on an olive tree. They hunted reindeer across the frozen tundra or farmed dairy goats and cows. I keep reminding myself: if animal fats are so bad, how did they all survive to produce me? It's like my whole frame of reference has changed, what I thought was the gospel truth made me ill, and suddenly I don't fit in my social circle like I used to. Any advice? Thanks so much-- Lierre __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 for some reason, the attachment didn't work. i will try to send it in 2 forms this time. ----- Original Message ----- From: " Deanna Buck " <dbuck@...> < > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 2:17 PM Subject: Re: Robbins book attached is an article from Science magazine that may help explain the misinformation about dietary fat. The Soft Science of Dietary Fat Taubes Mainstream nutritional science has demonized dietary fat, yet 50 years and hundreds of millions of dollars of research have failed to prove that eating a low-fat diet will help you live longer ----- Original Message ----- From: " Dennis " <nancydancy@...> < > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 1:50 PM Subject: Re: Robbins book Hi. I'm new also and have no advice for you--I just wanted you to know that you are not alone. I'm still trying to sort this all out. Robbins and the Earth Save materials are very appealing because of their deep concern for the environment. It's helped me to know that those in the permaculture and biodynamic farming movements have an equally deep concern for the environment but believe that animals are an important part of a healthy farm and a healthy diet. I'm finding this article on the Beyond Vegetarianism site to be very helpful because the writer is an ex-natural hygienist--a more extreme diet even than vegan. But I haven't arrived at a comfortable place yet in terms of what (and the relative percentages of each) I should eat. I'm wanting to understand how it is that the propaganda for damaged vegetable-based fats as more healthy than animal based fats came to permeate the " health food movement. " Sally rails against the greedy food processors and their efforts to foist dead and damaging psuedo food upon the population. But I've been into " health foods " for over 30 years and ALL writers I've read on the subject are equally aghast at what the food industry has done. So how is it that so many were taken in by the " science " that created the fat scare? All these years, as I read the mainstream press reports about the need for reducing fat etc., I thought the mainstream scientists were finally catching up with what I had been reading all along in the alternative scene. It should not be so difficult to know what constitutes a healthy diet. Why is there so much directly conflicting advice out there among the critics of mainstream food processors? It seems the only thing everyone can agree upon is that white flour and white sugar are bad. Beyond that, one must just decide who to believe or be good at checking references and evaluating research. Like you, I would not even be investigating the NT line of thinking if I was happy with my current state of health. More than one person has asked me, " why is it that the people who are into health foods so often don't look healthy and have little energy and many complaints while people who eat whatever they want from the mainstream seem to be doing just fine? " One of the problems with ascertaining cause and effect is that many difficulties caused by diet take many years to surface. And we only have one lifetime to figure it out. Good luck to all of us. ----- Original Message ----- From: L Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:09 AM Subject: Robbins book Hi, I'm new to this list and joined it partly because of the social isolation I feel trying to eat by the principles in NT. The problem for me is that the circles I move in have " vegetarian " as the default setting, and " vegan " as the state of grace we should strive for. Well, I was a vegan for 18 years--I started when I was just 16--and I got really sick. I won't bore you all with the details but introducing (pastured) meat and raw dairy products have improved my health to a miraculous degree. Getting soy out of my diet was another step forward--for the first time in 20 years I am now menstruating regularly. But giving up veganism is really hard. I feel like someone who joined a fundamentalist religion, had all the answers, and knew that god was on my side. Then something put a crack in the foundation and suddenly maybe the answers aren't so clear so you leave the church. And you feel a lot better, thinking for yourself, accepting that life is not so much black and white but actually a whole lot of gray. But then--you bump into one of your old fundamentalist friends on the street. And after five minutes of conversation, you're convinced that you're going to hell! That's what happened to me yesterday when I went to the library and on the New Titles shelf was Robbin's new book. I can't remember what it's called. Do you all know who he is? He wrote Diet for a New America, which promoted a vegan diet for reasons of health, compassion, and environmentalism. I loved this book and I thought he was really admirable. He's the heir to the Baskin and Robbins ice cream fortune and he gave it all away to charity. So of course I picked up the new book. The first section is all about the health hazards of eating an animal based diet vs. the health benefits of eating a plant based diet. He has this little heading " What We Know " that appears through out, where he lists all the studies that prove how animal products cause heart disease, cancer etc. Now I'm sure that I'm going to go to hell--er, that I'm going to get cancer! Or heart disease, or athersclerosis, or... I keep trying to remind myself how much better I feel--NOTHING could induce me to go back to a vegan diet. It's just that his book is so well documented, all quotes from highly educated doctors who run prestigious professional organizations etc. And I'm having many of the same problems with my friends, who all take it as an article of faith that everyone can and should be vegetarian/vegan. Are any of you ex-vegans/vegetarians? Have you had similar struggles? And are we all going to die terrible deaths from eating animal products? In the new book, Robbins at least says that vegetable oil is to be avoided as well, but that only leaves olive oil. Nobody in my genetic history (northern europe) ever set eyes on an olive tree. They hunted reindeer across the frozen tundra or farmed dairy goats and cows. I keep reminding myself: if animal fats are so bad, how did they all survive to produce me? It's like my whole frame of reference has changed, what I thought was the gospel truth made me ill, and suddenly I don't fit in my social circle like I used to. Any advice? Thanks so much-- Lierre __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 Hi Deanna, Thanks for this reference. I didn't get an attachment with your email, but I would LOVE to read this article. Can you give me the date it was published? Thanks, ----- Original Message ----- From: Deanna Buck Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: Re: Robbins book attached is an article from Science magazine that may help explain the misinformation about dietary fat. The Soft Science of Dietary Fat Taubes Mainstream nutritional science has demonized dietary fat, yet 50 years and hundreds of millions of dollars of research have failed to prove that eating a low-fat diet will help you live longer ----- Original Message ----- From: " Dennis " <nancydancy@...> < > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 1:50 PM Subject: Re: Robbins book Hi. I'm new also and have no advice for you--I just wanted you to know that you are not alone. I'm still trying to sort this all out. Robbins and the Earth Save materials are very appealing because of their deep concern for the environment. It's helped me to know that those in the permaculture and biodynamic farming movements have an equally deep concern for the environment but believe that animals are an important part of a healthy farm and a healthy diet. I'm finding this article on the Beyond Vegetarianism site to be very helpful because the writer is an ex-natural hygienist--a more extreme diet even than vegan. But I haven't arrived at a comfortable place yet in terms of what (and the relative percentages of each) I should eat. I'm wanting to understand how it is that the propaganda for damaged vegetable-based fats as more healthy than animal based fats came to permeate the " health food movement. " Sally rails against the greedy food processors and their efforts to foist dead and damaging psuedo food upon the population. But I've been into " health foods " for over 30 years and ALL writers I've read on the subject are equally aghast at what the food industry has done. So how is it that so many were taken in by the " science " that created the fat scare? All these years, as I read the mainstream press reports about the need for reducing fat etc., I thought the mainstream scientists were finally catching up with what I had been reading all along in the alternative scene. It should not be so difficult to know what constitutes a healthy diet. Why is there so much directly conflicting advice out there among the critics of mainstream food processors? It seems the only thing everyone can agree upon is that white flour and white sugar are bad. Beyond that, one must just decide who to believe or be good at checking references and evaluating research. Like you, I would not even be investigating the NT line of thinking if I was happy with my current state of health. More than one person has asked me, " why is it that the people who are into health foods so often don't look healthy and have little energy and many complaints while people who eat whatever they want from the mainstream seem to be doing just fine? " One of the problems with ascertaining cause and effect is that many difficulties caused by diet take many years to surface. And we only have one lifetime to figure it out. Good luck to all of us. ----- Original Message ----- From: L Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 11:09 AM Subject: Robbins book Hi, I'm new to this list and joined it partly because of the social isolation I feel trying to eat by the principles in NT. The problem for me is that the circles I move in have " vegetarian " as the default setting, and " vegan " as the state of grace we should strive for. Well, I was a vegan for 18 years--I started when I was just 16--and I got really sick. I won't bore you all with the details but introducing (pastured) meat and raw dairy products have improved my health to a miraculous degree. Getting soy out of my diet was another step forward--for the first time in 20 years I am now menstruating regularly. But giving up veganism is really hard. I feel like someone who joined a fundamentalist religion, had all the answers, and knew that god was on my side. Then something put a crack in the foundation and suddenly maybe the answers aren't so clear so you leave the church. And you feel a lot better, thinking for yourself, accepting that life is not so much black and white but actually a whole lot of gray. But then--you bump into one of your old fundamentalist friends on the street. And after five minutes of conversation, you're convinced that you're going to hell! That's what happened to me yesterday when I went to the library and on the New Titles shelf was Robbin's new book. I can't remember what it's called. Do you all know who he is? He wrote Diet for a New America, which promoted a vegan diet for reasons of health, compassion, and environmentalism. I loved this book and I thought he was really admirable. He's the heir to the Baskin and Robbins ice cream fortune and he gave it all away to charity. So of course I picked up the new book. The first section is all about the health hazards of eating an animal based diet vs. the health benefits of eating a plant based diet. He has this little heading " What We Know " that appears through out, where he lists all the studies that prove how animal products cause heart disease, cancer etc. Now I'm sure that I'm going to go to hell--er, that I'm going to get cancer! Or heart disease, or athersclerosis, or... I keep trying to remind myself how much better I feel--NOTHING could induce me to go back to a vegan diet. It's just that his book is so well documented, all quotes from highly educated doctors who run prestigious professional organizations etc. And I'm having many of the same problems with my friends, who all take it as an article of faith that everyone can and should be vegetarian/vegan. Are any of you ex-vegans/vegetarians? Have you had similar struggles? And are we all going to die terrible deaths from eating animal products? In the new book, Robbins at least says that vegetable oil is to be avoided as well, but that only leaves olive oil. Nobody in my genetic history (northern europe) ever set eyes on an olive tree. They hunted reindeer across the frozen tundra or farmed dairy goats and cows. I keep reminding myself: if animal fats are so bad, how did they all survive to produce me? It's like my whole frame of reference has changed, what I thought was the gospel truth made me ill, and suddenly I don't fit in my social circle like I used to. Any advice? Thanks so much-- Lierre __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 > attached is an article from Science magazine that may help explain the > misinformation about dietary fat. > > The Soft Science of Dietary Fat > Taubes > > Mainstream nutritional science has demonized dietary fat, yet 50 years and > hundreds of millions of dollars of research have failed to prove that eating > a low-fat diet will help you live longer I think that this perspective substantially misses the point. I have yet to meet someone who became a vegetarian for health reasons. I've met plenty of people who use that as an argument *for being* vegetarian. But that was never the reason they did. The reasons are always things like cruelty or environment effects of meat production. So the question is the cruelty and environmental damage imposed by meat production. I was worried about this for a long time and two different kinds of things changed my mind: 1. Making biodynamic preparations. In particular, I had to carry a freshly-killed cow's head to a stream and put it in the stream. And I had to think about why it was that this was happening and how this cow had died as part of an (mistaken or not) attempt to make the farm sustainable and fertile. Most organic farmers, regardless of their diet, seem to think that animals are a tremendously important part of maintaining farm productivity. Why not eat the animals when it becomes time to kill them? 2. The arguments on the WAP website about choosing appropriate agricultural technology based on the environment. An excellent example is the problem of what to do with the environmental damage that's necessary to sustain production of the grain farms in the plain states. It makes a lot more sense, environmentally speaking, to raise meat there. All this points to a conclusion that SOME meat in the diet is appropriate. And that, when done, you should eat the whole thing, not just the choicest bits, here and there. This is not an argument for " eat lots of meat all the time " . Is this kind of perspective helpful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 At 09:09 AM 12/6/01 -0800, you wrote: Are any of you ex-vegans/vegetarians? Have you had similar struggles? And are we all going to die terrible deaths from eating animal products? [snip] Lierre - I'm ex Vegan/vegetarian. Yes, I've had similar struggles. No, we are not going to die terrible deaths from eating animal products (caveat below). ;-) [what started out as a short reply has blossomed into a more lengthy one - apologies in advance] The sad truth about " well-documented " writings and " scientific evidence " is that anyone can defend any position he/she wants and make it look, feel, and sound terribly scientific, truthful and thoughtful. Well, thoughtful, maybe. But truthful? That is an entirely different question. And one might get an entirely different answer depending on the author. [example: here in L.A. we recently went before a Board of policy-makers to encourage them to permit the sale of raw milk in L.A. county. There were " scientists " there who spoke. On the " anti-raw " side were well-educated people who had lots of data on how raw milk was the root of all milk ailments and that it was a significant health risk and how could they even think of permitting the sale of raw milk and... yadda, yadda. On the " pro-raw " side was a well-educated person who had lots more data about how wrong the first scientists were (and why) and further he convinced these lay-people (the Board) that raw was much safer than Pasteurized milk. Who to believe? Both sounded convincing and both had lots of documentation. Thankfully, the Board used their instincts and decided that the " pro-raw " speaker knew what he was talking about and that the " anti-raw " speakers were full of it.] Take a tip from Instinctos (loosely - those who rely on their instincts to decide what to eat and when - I'm sure it goes deeper than that). If you feel lousy when on a vegetarian or Vegan diet *your body is telling you something*. Listen. Listen carefully. If you feel great after eating a raw rack of lamb - *your body is telling you something*. Listen to it. After awhile, you'll only listen to whatever makes you feel healthy and alive, vibrant, etc., and you will shun whatever makes you feel lousy. This instinct thing extends to all aspects of a person's life. One thing I've learned recently - your body will tell you the truth - it won't lie or mislead. If I eat cooked meat I know that I will " pay " for that mistake - I'll get indigestion, gas, pains, burning, perhaps constipation. That's my body telling me " stop that " . If, however, I eat that raw rack of lamb I do not get indigestion, gas, pains, constipation, nor anything else that feels " not right " . In fact, after eating raw, I scarcely feel that I've eaten at all (goes through without any feeling of discomfort whatsoever). I would personally recommend eating grass-fed, organic, *raw* meat. Knowing what I now know about how my body reacts to cooked-versus-raw meat, raw is the *only* way I can stay healthy (and improve my health). I know that if I go back to eating cooked meats that I will get sick (just my instinct talking here). So, in some ways, the detractors are correct (IMHO) - eating cooked meats might make for ill health in the long run. I wouldn't argue with that position. Raw meat has an entirely different story to tell. Peer pressure can be significant. A good defense is not to try convincing the " anti " people that you are right and they are wrong. For those that won't let up I just say, " live and let live " . " You choices are right for you and my choices are right for me. " We should all know too well that personal decisions about one's health (or one's religion) - or any other personal decision that harms no one else or breaks no laws - is nobody else' business. The trick, in life, is to find peers that *share* your vision and opinions about things - not to accede to theirs. Hopefully, this e-mail list provides a support group of peers that do share your vision about nutrition and health. Pot-luck dinners with like-minded people can be a real boost to one's convictions about eating and health. When I first arrived here 12 years ago many people I met in the L.A. area tried to convince me that Veganism was the *true* path to health, vegetarianism being second-best but acceptable (to a degree). I lived with Vegans for 1 year. I tried vegetarianism for nearly 10 years before my instincts kicked in and told me in no uncertain terms that if I wanted to stay unhealthy I should continue as a vegetarian. My health was deteriorating year after year. A good friend and Ayurvedic academic recommended that I not be exclusively vegetarian - that I needed meat (and I foolishly ignored that for quite some time). I looked elsewhere and found a better way and I feel 200% better than I have felt in 10 years. Meat was the key, raw meat being what I really needed. Just as an aside (and not to detract from anyone who wishes to be vegetarian or Vegan, for it is your right) let me relate something to you. There is a man here who places himself nearly every day on the Venice Boardwalk who is Vegan and has posters, hand-outs and easel boards showing just how bad meat is to eat and that we should not kill our fellow animals. He's very convincing. I feel that killing an animal for food is okay (it's Nature's way) but killing for sport is not. But this man, who espouses a Vegan lifestyle, looks terribly unhealthy with uneven skin color all over his body and sunken wrinkles and dangling and peeling skin, rashes, acne, sunken, dark eyes, purple tongue, etc., etc. He is only about 40 years old but looks about 60. There is no one on Earth who could convince me that he is healthy. But he is convinced that he is healthy and that he must convert to a Vegan diet anyone who will listen. I just smile politely when I walk by his part of the Boardwalk. The bottom line there is " we agree to disagree on this point. " I have read many times in this venue (and other related health venues) that some vegetarians eventually find out they are " lost " and try eating meat again (usually with profoundly positive results). That's instinct at work... My friendly advice to you is to stop worrying about what others think of your quest for good health. Stick to your " guns " and your instinct. It will serve you well in the years to come. Best regards, -=mark=- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 What a great post Mark, thank you. I have yet to step into the raw meat world - can you tell me how you started? I've read NT section on raw meat - can you recommend any other sources, websites, etc.? I need to find out the basics - like, I get my meat from organic, pasture fed (grain finished) sources at my local farmers market. Sally says to freeze it first to kill parasites - and then? defrost and dig in? Yowza ! I need to read a bit more about this and I thought maybe you'd be able to refer me. Thanks again for a great post - I think I've seen that guy on Venice Blvd. on one of my trips to LA. My husband used to see a osteopathic physician who insisted that macrobiotics is the way, and he has sallow, yellow skin, dark circles under his eyes, was constantly blowing his nose, his office carpet was terribly moldy and he couldn't notice the smell! Most vegans are immediately identifiable, as is my sister - skinny to the point of almost looking anorexic, pale, bony etc. - but usually with good hearts (emotionally I mean, maybe not health wise). Lynne > Are any of you ex-vegans/vegetarians? Have you had > similar struggles? And are we all going to die > terrible deaths from eating animal products? > > [snip] > > Lierre - > > I'm ex Vegan/vegetarian. Yes, I've had similar struggles. No, we are not > going to die terrible deaths from eating animal products (caveat below). > > ;-) > > [what started out as a short reply has blossomed into a more lengthy one - > apologies in advance] > > The sad truth about " well-documented " writings and " scientific evidence " is > that anyone can defend any position he/she wants and make it look, feel, > and sound terribly scientific, truthful and thoughtful. Well, thoughtful, > maybe. But truthful? That is an entirely different question. And one > might get an entirely different answer depending on the author. > > [example: here in L.A. we recently went before a Board of policy- makers to > encourage them to permit the sale of raw milk in L.A. county. There were > " scientists " there who spoke. On the " anti-raw " side were well- educated > people who had lots of data on how raw milk was the root of all milk > ailments and that it was a significant health risk and how could they even > think of permitting the sale of raw milk and... yadda, yadda. On the > " pro-raw " side was a well-educated person who had lots more data about how > wrong the first scientists were (and why) and further he convinced these > lay-people (the Board) that raw was much safer than Pasteurized milk. Who > to believe? Both sounded convincing and both had lots of > documentation. Thankfully, the Board used their instincts and decided that > the " pro-raw " speaker knew what he was talking about and that the > " anti-raw " speakers were full of it.] > > Take a tip from Instinctos (loosely - those who rely on their instincts to > decide what to eat and when - I'm sure it goes deeper than that). If you > feel lousy when on a vegetarian or Vegan diet *your body is telling you > something*. Listen. Listen carefully. If you feel great after eating a > raw rack of lamb - *your body is telling you something*. Listen to > it. After awhile, you'll only listen to whatever makes you feel healthy > and alive, vibrant, etc., and you will shun whatever makes you feel > lousy. This instinct thing extends to all aspects of a person's life. One > thing I've learned recently - your body will tell you the truth - it won't > lie or mislead. > > If I eat cooked meat I know that I will " pay " for that mistake - I'll get > indigestion, gas, pains, burning, perhaps constipation. That's my body > telling me " stop that " . If, however, I eat that raw rack of lamb I do not > get indigestion, gas, pains, constipation, nor anything else that feels > " not right " . In fact, after eating raw, I scarcely feel that I've eaten at > all (goes through without any feeling of discomfort whatsoever). > > I would personally recommend eating grass-fed, organic, *raw* > meat. Knowing what I now know about how my body reacts to > cooked-versus-raw meat, raw is the *only* way I can stay healthy (and > improve my health). I know that if I go back to eating cooked meats that I > will get sick (just my instinct talking here). So, in some ways, the > detractors are correct (IMHO) - eating cooked meats might make for ill > health in the long run. I wouldn't argue with that position. Raw meat has > an entirely different story to tell. > > Peer pressure can be significant. A good defense is not to try convincing > the " anti " people that you are right and they are wrong. For those that > won't let up I just say, " live and let live " . " You choices are right for > you and my choices are right for me. " > > We should all know too well that personal decisions about one's health (or > one's religion) - or any other personal decision that harms no one else or > breaks no laws - is nobody else' business. The trick, in life, is to find > peers that *share* your vision and opinions about things - not to accede to > theirs. Hopefully, this e-mail list provides a support group of peers that > do share your vision about nutrition and health. Pot-luck dinners with > like-minded people can be a real boost to one's convictions about eating > and health. > > When I first arrived here 12 years ago many people I met in the L.A. area > tried to convince me that Veganism was the *true* path to health, > vegetarianism being second-best but acceptable (to a degree). I lived with > Vegans for 1 year. I tried vegetarianism for nearly 10 years before my > instincts kicked in and told me in no uncertain terms that if I wanted to > stay unhealthy I should continue as a vegetarian. My health was > deteriorating year after year. A good friend and Ayurvedic academic > recommended that I not be exclusively vegetarian - that I needed meat (and > I foolishly ignored that for quite some time). I looked elsewhere and > found a better way and I feel 200% better than I have felt in 10 > years. Meat was the key, raw meat being what I really needed. > > Just as an aside (and not to detract from anyone who wishes to be > vegetarian or Vegan, for it is your right) let me relate something to > you. There is a man here who places himself nearly every day on the Venice > Boardwalk who is Vegan and has posters, hand-outs and easel boards showing > just how bad meat is to eat and that we should not kill our fellow > animals. He's very convincing. I feel that killing an animal for food is > okay (it's Nature's way) but killing for sport is not. > > But this man, who espouses a Vegan lifestyle, looks terribly unhealthy with > uneven skin color all over his body and sunken wrinkles and dangling and > peeling skin, rashes, acne, sunken, dark eyes, purple tongue, etc., > etc. He is only about 40 years old but looks about 60. There is no one on > Earth who could convince me that he is healthy. But he is convinced that > he is healthy and that he must convert to a Vegan diet anyone who will > listen. I just smile politely when I walk by his part of the > Boardwalk. The bottom line there is " we agree to disagree on this point. " > > I have read many times in this venue (and other related health venues) that > some vegetarians eventually find out they are " lost " and try eating meat > again (usually with profoundly positive results). That's instinct at work... > > My friendly advice to you is to stop worrying about what others think of > your quest for good health. Stick to your " guns " and your instinct. It > will serve you well in the years to come. > > Best regards, > > -=mark=- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2001 Report Share Posted December 6, 2001 Just a piggy back comment to Aubin, I just read the Cholesterol Myth and it is great! My back ground comes from the alternative cancer world and it is amazing how many treatments, philosophies and horrors (like chemo and radiation) that are built upon these lies that become accepted dogma. It seems to be true in so many areas of life - probably due to financial pressures, for once some corporation starts making money from the myth, watch out - business is moving in and lies become truth. Check out the book, Lynne > Hi, > I'm new to this list and joined it partly because of > the social isolation I feel trying to eat by the > principles in NT. The problem for me is that the > circles I move in have " vegetarian " as the default > setting, and " vegan " as the state of grace we should > strive for. Well, I was a vegan for 18 years--I > started when I was just 16--and I got really sick. I > won't bore you all with the details but introducing > (pastured) meat and raw dairy products have improved > my health to a miraculous degree. Getting soy out of > my diet was another step forward--for the first time > in 20 years I am now menstruating regularly. But > giving up veganism is really hard. I feel like someone > who joined a fundamentalist religion, had all the > answers, and knew that god was on my side. Then > something put a crack in the foundation and suddenly > maybe the answers aren't so clear so you leave the > church. And you feel a lot better, thinking for > yourself, accepting that life is not so much black and > white but actually a whole lot of gray. But then--you > bump into one of your old fundamentalist friends on > the street. And after five minutes of conversation, > you're convinced that you're going to hell! > That's what happened to me yesterday when I went to > the library and on the New Titles shelf was > Robbin's new book. I can't remember what it's called. > Do you all know who he is? He wrote Diet for a New > America, which promoted a vegan diet for reasons of > health, compassion, and environmentalism. I loved this > book and I thought he was really admirable. He's the > heir to the Baskin and Robbins ice cream fortune and > he gave it all away to charity. > So of course I picked up the new book. The first > section is all about the health hazards of eating an > animal based diet vs. the health benefits of eating a > plant based diet. He has this little heading " What We > Know " that appears through out, where he lists all the > studies that prove how animal products cause heart > disease, cancer etc. Now I'm sure that I'm going to go > to hell--er, that I'm going to get cancer! Or heart > disease, or athersclerosis, or... I keep trying to > remind myself how much better I feel--NOTHING could > induce me to go back to a vegan diet. It's just that > his book is so well documented, all quotes from highly > educated doctors who run prestigious professional > organizations etc. > And I'm having many of the same problems with my > friends, who all take it as an article of faith that > everyone can and should be vegetarian/vegan. > Are any of you ex-vegans/vegetarians? Have you had > similar struggles? And are we all going to die > terrible deaths from eating animal products? In the > new book, Robbins at least says that vegetable oil is > to be avoided as well, but that only leaves olive oil. > Nobody in my genetic history (northern europe) ever > set eyes on an olive tree. They hunted reindeer across > the frozen tundra or farmed dairy goats and cows. I > keep reminding myself: if animal fats are so bad, how > did they all survive to produce me? It's like my whole > frame of reference has changed, what I thought was the > gospel truth made me ill, and suddenly I don't fit in > my social circle like I used to. Any advice? > Thanks so much-- > Lierre > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2001 Report Share Posted December 7, 2001 >> lies that become accepted dogma. It seems to be true in so many areas of life - probably due to financial pressures, for once some corporation starts making money from the myth, watch out - business is moving in and lies become truth. << Yes, once someone starts making money, they fund research that slants that way, and others (even well-meaning others who won't financially benefit) can find the research and go from there, without checking to see if there was bias at the base of the research. ~ Carma ~ There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots. ~ Anonymous Carma's Corner: http://www.users.qwest.net/~carmapaden/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2001 Report Share Posted December 7, 2001 Thanks for that Mark, I've always been pretty healthy, but in the last 2 years 3 of our family members (my parents, and my husband's mother)died of cancer (lung cancer from smoking, my parents, and colon cancer, Bob's mom). Needless to say, I've been a freak the last 2 years about diet, and have been doing the vegan, vegetarian, low fat thing trying to prevent cancer. Well, I've never been a smoker, so I should be fairly ok there, but I was starting to get gastritis last fall. One day, I made corn tortilla with plain ground beef b/c that's all I had for some reason-lots of fat and everything. I ate one bite, my stomach started feeling wonderful, and I scarfed down like 3 of them. I haven't stopped eating meat since, b/c when I eat meat, I feel really good, my stomach feels good, and I have more energy. When I don't, I feel pretty miserable. My stomach hurts, I'm tired and grumpy, etc. And you know what? I didn't gain weight, or get fat. I'm still the same weight I was before, and people aren't constantly telling me that they are worried I'm losing weight (I can't afford to). Anyway, I definitely want to improve our diet, but in a way that makes sense. Vegetarianism for us does not make sense. Thanks for listening. God Bless. Kristi --- Theta Sigma <thetasig@...> wrote: Take a tip from Instinctos (loosely - those who rely > on their instincts to > decide what to eat and when - I'm sure it goes > deeper than that). If you > feel lousy when on a vegetarian or Vegan diet *your > body is telling you > something*. Listen. Listen carefully. If you feel > great after eating a > raw rack of lamb - *your body is telling you > something*. Listen to > it. After awhile, you'll only listen to whatever > makes you feel healthy > and alive, vibrant, etc., and you will shun whatever > makes you feel > lousy. This instinct thing extends to all aspects > of a person's life. One > thing I've learned recently - your body will tell > you the truth - it won't > lie or mislead. > > If I eat cooked meat I know that I will " pay " for > that mistake - I'll get > indigestion, gas, pains, burning, perhaps > constipation. That's my body > telling me " stop that " . If, however, I eat that raw > rack of lamb I do not > get indigestion, gas, pains, constipation, nor > anything else that feels > " not right " . In fact, after eating raw, I scarcely > feel that I've eaten at > all (goes through without any feeling of discomfort > whatsoever). > > I would personally recommend eating grass-fed, > organic, *raw* > meat. Knowing what I now know about how my body > reacts to > cooked-versus-raw meat, raw is the *only* way I can > stay healthy (and > improve my health). I know that if I go back to > eating cooked meats that I > will get sick (just my instinct talking here). So, > in some ways, the > detractors are correct (IMHO) - eating cooked meats > might make for ill > health in the long run. I wouldn't argue with that > position. Raw meat has > an entirely different story to tell. > > Peer pressure can be significant. A good defense is > not to try convincing > the " anti " people that you are right and they are > wrong. For those that > won't let up I just say, " live and let live " . " You > choices are right for > you and my choices are right for me. " > > We should all know too well that personal decisions > about one's health (or > one's religion) - or any other personal decision > that harms no one else or > breaks no laws - is nobody else' business. The > trick, in life, is to find > peers that *share* your vision and opinions about > things - not to accede to > theirs. Hopefully, this e-mail list provides a > support group of peers that > do share your vision about nutrition and health. > Pot-luck dinners with > like-minded people can be a real boost to one's > convictions about eating > and health. > > When I first arrived here 12 years ago many people I > met in the L.A. area > tried to convince me that Veganism was the *true* > path to health, > vegetarianism being second-best but acceptable (to a > degree). I lived with > Vegans for 1 year. I tried vegetarianism for nearly > 10 years before my > instincts kicked in and told me in no uncertain > terms that if I wanted to > stay unhealthy I should continue as a vegetarian. > My health was > deteriorating year after year. A good friend and > Ayurvedic academic > recommended that I not be exclusively vegetarian - > that I needed meat (and > I foolishly ignored that for quite some time). I > looked elsewhere and > found a better way and I feel 200% better than I > have felt in 10 > years. Meat was the key, raw meat being what I > really needed. > > Just as an aside (and not to detract from anyone who > wishes to be > vegetarian or Vegan, for it is your right) let me > relate something to > you. There is a man here who places himself nearly > every day on the Venice > Boardwalk who is Vegan and has posters, hand-outs > and easel boards showing > just how bad meat is to eat and that we should not > kill our fellow > animals. He's very convincing. I feel that killing > an animal for food is > okay (it's Nature's way) but killing for sport is > not. > > But this man, who espouses a Vegan lifestyle, looks > terribly unhealthy with > uneven skin color all over his body and sunken > wrinkles and dangling and > peeling skin, rashes, acne, sunken, dark eyes, > purple tongue, etc., > etc. He is only about 40 years old but looks about > 60. There is no one on > Earth who could convince me that he is healthy. But > he is convinced that > he is healthy and that he must convert to a Vegan > diet anyone who will > listen. I just smile politely when I walk by his > part of the > Boardwalk. The bottom line there is " we agree to > disagree on this point. " > > I have read many times in this venue (and other > related health venues) that > some vegetarians eventually find out they are " lost " > and try eating meat > again (usually with profoundly positive results). > That's instinct at work... > > My friendly advice to you is to stop worrying about > what others think of > your quest for good health. Stick to your " guns " > and your instinct. It > will serve you well in the years to come. > > Best regards, > > -=mark=- > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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