Guest guest Posted January 30, 2006 Report Share Posted January 30, 2006 Have you tried taking some clomid, nolvadex, or fareston to get your testosterone back up? Maybe 4-6 weeks depending on what you take. > screw with your liver enzymes. My total cholesterol was under 200 when I went > on the meds and over 250 when I went off of them. My testosterone was around > 700 when I went on the meds and around 400 when I went off. Even though the > dopamine-testosterone interaction is strong I think this is more of a liver > enzyme issue than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Hi Ruth, >How do you plan to reignite that dopamine fire? That is the million dollar question. I don't think there is one easy answer. As I'm sure you know, everyone's biochemistry is different. A perfect example of that is the different way that a med like wellbutrin effects different people. Many people find that it increases their agitation and anxiety. But for me it was relaxing. To the point that I couldn't keep my eyes open. I'm very wary of taking stimulants because I think they ultimately leave you more burned out then when you started. ly, I've become wary of taking any medication. Mainly because of the effect that you mention. They seem to lose their strength over time. This generally happens with uptake inhibitors because they keep a high amount of transmitter in the synapse. The presynaptic neuron senses this and decides it no longer needs to synthesize the transmitter in question anymore so it's stops making more of the neurotransmitter. This generally happens via a change in gene expression. Meanwhile the receptor cells may become downregulated (less sensitive and/or decreased in number) in response to the perpetually flooded synapse. I still haven't ruled out taking wellbutrin at some point in the future because I think it's a whole lot better than the SSRI's and tricyclics. But right now I think I'm going to give myself at least a few months of just working with supplements and see what happens. The main supplements I'm taking are the dopamine precursors DLPA and tyrosine. Though I find that for me the DLPA is a lot better. I'm also taking extra co-fators that help convert these aminos into the neurotransmitter. Mainly the B vitamins. Particularly B6 (P5P) and B12. I'm also taking a couple of pro-libido formulas that are pretty much multivitamins with some DHEA and amino acids and pro libido herbs such as nettle root, saw palmetto, etc. I'm also taking fish, flax and borage oil, L-arginine, lecithin, alpha lipoic acid and probably a few others that I can't remember right now. Finally, and I know it sounds strange, I am taking 5htp. Yes that's right. The SEROTONIN precurser. The reason for this is that I think the underlying overactive stress response that I was experiencing that led me to seek medication in the first place, is still with me. I still have terrible sleeping problems (although this has been getting a little better lately), i still have a hard time relaxing, i still have too much tension, etc., etc. So for me, just trying to address the dopamine side of it without also addressing this underlying overactive sympathetic nervous system that I have, will not really get me healthy again. Whew! Sorry to ramble on like this but there really isn't a simple way to address this problem. By the way, last year I tried taking a 1/4 of one of my father's 1mg requip tablets just to see the effect. It's a good thing I took it at night because it totally knocked me out. I think that my dopamine function had gotten so low/burned out due to stress and meds that the receptors may have hypersensitized. This way they can get more stimulation out of less transmitter. The problem is that once this happens and you try too boost dopamine transmission quickly (as with a medication) the oversensitized receptors see this as way too much stimulation and in effect shut the system down. This may be why these dopaminergic meds wipe me out. I don't know. Until I actually start feeling some major relief from something it's all just speculation. Hang in there and feel free to email me with any thoughts or questions you might have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 , How do you plan to reignite that dopamine fire? Right now I am taking Wellbutrin xl 150mg daily and Requip 0.5mg daily. The first month or so I notice a good change in my libido and sexual response. But now I feel like I'm falling backwards again to low libido and a long,long,long time for sexual response. Vornan's discussion about cycling on and off dopamine agonists sounds interesting. I'd like to hear more from him about that and what do you think? Thanks, Ruthpaul821nj@... wrote: Hi and thanks, You make a good point. The doctor who gave me the QEEG was Dr. Braverman. I read his book, "The Edge Effect," and thought I'd go see him. ly, I just wanted to have the test done. I had no illusions about him or any other doctor helping me. The test is expensive and the guy has a major ego problem, but I'm glad I went and got it done anyway. The test did show that I am extremely low in dopamine. But I think the serotonergic meds are only partially responsible for this. I was burning out before I went on Paxil. When you're stuck in a bad stress cycle and you're getting constant over the top sympathetic / fight or flight reactions (as I was) you are in effect burning out your dopamine reserves in order to meet the demand for epinephrine. D -> NE -> E Paxil actually did help me. It blunted the stress response. The problem is that these moron doctors always give too high of a dose of these meds and for too long. So you end up blunting the stress response but also suppressing an already underperforming dopaminergic system. On top of that most medications screw with your liver enzymes. My total cholesterol was under 200 when I went on the meds and over 250 when I went off of them. My testosterone was around 700 when I went on the meds and around 400 when I went off. Even though the dopamine-testosterone interaction is strong I think this is more of a liver enzyme issue than anything else. The point is, I still think the pre-medication "sympathetic" overactivity issues are still with me. Even though most of the external stress isn't. So I kind of have to make sure to keep the system calm (parasympathetic) while also trying to reignite that dopamine fire that makes life so worth living. It's no easy task... Bring words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 Hi, >My testosterone level was tested about 4 months ago and it was 189 and my DHEA was in the 900's. Clearly there is a problem here. I don't see how supplementing T addresses the fact that your body is unable to convert all that DHEA into testosterone in the first place. That's where the problem is. >I had an MRI done, but that came back normal. So now his theory is that I have had a head injury that damaged my hypothalamus and that it cannot produce the amount of LH that is needed to signal the testicles to release testosterone. I think you had the same "head injury" the rest of us had...prescription medication! The one and only thing that I am certain of since my downward slide is that MD stands for Medical Dumbass. >Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that there is more to our problem than just having low testosterone. Your absolutely right about that. There's a lot going wrong and one pill isn't going to fix it. >Also, I have tried taking L-arginine 2-3x a day for a month and didn't notice any improvement, then I read that some people died from heart attacks after taking it so I quit taking them. I don't think it's going to cure me. But as part of a whole health regimen over time it may help. The last thing I'm worried about is l-arginine giving me a heart attack. Hang in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 > > Have you tried taking some clomid, nolvadex, or fareston to get your > testosterone back up? Maybe 4-6 weeks depending on what you take. > Hi, I haven't tried any of those. The last time I had my testosterone level tested was about a year ago and it was 393 i think. This is lower than it should be, but it's not severely low. The thing is my DHEA level is still way up there. Well over 500. That means there some type of " traffic jam " keeping the DHEA from being converted to testosterone. I've read that l-arginine can help this conversion so I've started taking 500mg l-arginine 3x per day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 My testosterone level was tested about 4 months ago and it was 189 and my DHEA was in the 900's. My endocrinologist diagnosed me with Central Hypogonadism and said the the elevated DHEA was a sign that I had " very smart adrenal glands " and that they were trying to make up for the lack of testosterone. The problem he says is that my LH and FSH, while in the normal range, should be much higher since my T is low. I had an MRI done, but that came back normal. So now his theory is that I have had a head injury that damaged my hypothalamus and that it cannot produce the amount of LH that is needed to signal the testicles to release testosterone. Of course I tried to explain to him that I never had a problem with libido or genital sensation until taking Celexa, but he, like every Dr I have told this too, looks at me like I'm crazy and says that isn't possible. He also cannot explain why the T gel and shots that has been prescribed to me by he and other doctors have not improved my libido or sensation. I was on Testim gel for 6 months and the entire time my T was in the 600's. I had a few erections and improved libido for the first 3 or 4 days, but after that it's back to having no interest in sex, and they never do anything for my genital sensation. My genital sensation just keeps getting more numb after each orgasm and it never comes back. I'm at the point now where it is so numb down there that I'm getting a lot of constipation and having difficulty urinating. Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that there is more to our problem than just having low testosterone. Also, I have tried taking L-arginine 2-3x a day for a month and didn't notice any improvement, then I read that some people died from heart attacks after taking it so I quit taking them. > > > > Have you tried taking some clomid, nolvadex, or fareston to get your > > testosterone back up? Maybe 4-6 weeks depending on what you take. > > > > Hi, > > I haven't tried any of those. The last time I had my testosterone > level tested was about a year ago and it was 393 i think. This is > lower than it should be, but it's not severely low. The thing is my > DHEA level is still way up there. Well over 500. That means there > some type of " traffic jam " keeping the DHEA from being converted to > testosterone. I've read that l-arginine can help this conversion so > I've started taking 500mg l-arginine 3x per day. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 > > > > Have you tried taking some clomid, nolvadex, or fareston to get your > > testosterone back up? Maybe 4-6 weeks depending on what you take. > > > > Hi, > > I haven't tried any of those. The last time I had my testosterone > level tested was about a year ago and it was 393 i think. This is > lower than it should be, but it's not severely low. The thing is my > DHEA level is still way up there. Well over 500. That means there > some type of " traffic jam " keeping the DHEA from being converted to > testosterone. I've read that l-arginine can help this conversion so > I've started taking 500mg l-arginine 3x per day. > > > Ultimately you'll want your testosterone back in around 700 if you can, HRT docs aim for the upper end of the range 700-1000. But your idea of going for the neurotransmitters first should still be good. It seems like dopamine is tied into testosterone anyway. Do you think running all the precursors will gradually bring levels and sensitivity back in line? I'm actually trying out DLPA, tyrosine, and 5htp as well but mostly for other reasons. DLPA seems to have effects on the opiod system as well as dopamine so it may have some mood brightening effects which is what I'm after with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2006 Report Share Posted January 31, 2006 > Do you think running all the precursors will gradually bring levels > and sensitivity back in line? I'm actually trying out DLPA, tyrosine, > and 5htp as well but mostly for other reasons. DLPA seems to have > effects on the opiod system as well as dopamine so it may have some > mood brightening effects which is what I'm after with it. Ive read somewhere you have to take them for at least a month to notice any difference, so I guess using amino acids takes patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 Yes, taking amino acids is no quick fix. I'm figuring it'll be more like 3 to 6 months at 2000-3000mg a day before I see any substantial improvement. However, I have to say, I did feel some pain relief with the first dose. That's why I decided to continue with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 > Ultimately you'll want your testosterone back in around 700 if you > can, HRT docs aim for the upper end of the range 700-1000. But your > idea of going for the neurotransmitters first should still be good. > It seems like dopamine is tied into testosterone anyway. > > Do you think running all the precursors will gradually bring levels > and sensitivity back in line? I'm actually trying out DLPA, tyrosine, > and 5htp as well but mostly for other reasons. DLPA seems to have > effects on the opiod system as well as dopamine so it may have some > mood brightening effects which is what I'm after with it. > Yes, that would be ideal. They say that you need a testosterone level above 500 to get morning erections and spontaneous arousals. In other words to feel normal again. I need to get some more blood work done soon to see where I'm at. I'm not certain how effective precursor " loading " will be. I think it is possible that gradually increasing catacholamine levels may help move the system back toward homeostasis. Perhaps by providing he precursors (and the cofactors of course) we can get the nerve cells to start doing their job again. That is, to start synthesizing more transmitters. Over time this may shift the gene expression back to what it was pre-medication. All I know is that last spring I was taking 2000-3000mg of DLPA every day and I started easing myself into a jogging regimen. After about two months I started to notice some positive things happening. For one thing I started to get some quality sleep and quality bowel movements. This was huge for me because I've suffered from chronic insomnia and chronic constipation along with the low libido issues for quite some time. Unfortunately, I became impatient and decided to give a couple of meds and try. They were neurontin first and then lamictal. They completely screwed me up all over again. Well this year I'm not going to make that same mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 > You make a good point. The doctor who gave me the QEEG was Dr. > Braverman. I read his book, " The Edge Effect, " and thought I'd go see him. ly, > I just wanted to have the test done. I had no illusions about him or any > other doctor helping me. The test is expensive and the guy has a major ego > problem, but I'm glad I went and got it done anyway. Thanks for the info. More comments and questions below. > > The test did show that I am extremely low in dopamine. But I think the > serotonergic meds are only partially responsible for this. I was burning out > before I went on Paxil. When you're stuck in a bad stress cycle and you're getting > constant over the top sympathetic / fight or flight reactions (as I was) you > are in effect burning out your dopamine reserves in order to meet the demand > for epinephrine. > > D -> NE -> E Interesting hypothesis. But how do you know you weren't low in other transmitters like GABA for example? When I had bad anxiety 4 years ago, before I went on celexa, I was recovering pretty well on valium, but the shrink I was seeing basically insisted I take an SSRI. That really screwed me up. If I had stayed on valium a bit longer I think I would have fully recovered. I had all the symptoms you describe, but intervention on the GABA axis was basically curing me. Have you ever tried a benzodiazepine? > > Paxil actually did help me. It blunted the stress response. The problem is > that these moron doctors always give too high of a dose of these meds and for > too long. I agree. So you end up blunting the stress response but also suppressing an > already underperforming dopaminergic system. On top of that most medications > screw with your liver enzymes. My total cholesterol was under 200 when I went > on the meds and over 250 when I went off of them. My testosterone was around > 700 when I went on the meds and around 400 when I went off. I suppose the conversion from cholesterol > DHEA > Androstenedione > Testosterone has been slowed down. Have you had your LH and FSH levels measured to test for secondary hypogonadism caused by the SSRI? Also, have you had your liver enzymes measured? Even though the > dopamine-testosterone interaction is strong I think this is more of a liver > enzyme issue than anything else. I think SSRIs do screw up the liver, but the liver recovers eventually after coming off them . I think it's more likely the long-term problems are caused by altered gene expression, mostly in the brain. > > The point is, I still think the pre-medication " sympathetic " overactivity > issues are still with me. Even though most of the external stress isn't. So I > kind of have to make sure to keep the system calm (parasympathetic) while also > trying to reignite that dopamine fire that makes life so worth living. It's > no easy task... What about combining a low-dose benzodiazepine with a dopamine agonist? That's what I'm trying now. Vornan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 > My testosterone level was tested about 4 months ago and it was 189 and > my DHEA was in the 900's. [snip] So now his theory is that > I have had a head injury that damaged my hypothalamus and that it > cannot produce the amount of LH that is needed to signal the testicles > to release testosterone. Of course I tried to explain to him that I > never had a problem with libido or genital sensation until taking > Celexa, but he, like every Dr I have told this too, looks at me like > I'm crazy and says that isn't possible. Your doc is an idiot, plain and simple. It's obvious to anyone with any brains that the SSRI casued secondary hypogondism in you. Vornan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2006 Report Share Posted February 1, 2006 Finally, and I know it > sounds strange, I am taking 5htp. Yes that's right. The SEROTONIN precurser. > The reason for this is that I think the underlying overactive stress response > that I was experiencing that led me to seek medication in the first place, is > still with me. How do you know low serotonin is causing this? By the way, last year I tried taking a 1/4 of one of my > father's 1mg requip tablets just to see the effect. It's a good thing I took > it at night because it totally knocked me out. What do you mean that it " knocked you out " ? - It put you to sleep? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2006 Report Share Posted February 4, 2006 I prefer valium. It is, along with Librium, the original benzo. I think it is the best because it has a very long half-life, which makes it much easier to withdraw from than, say, xanax. I never take more than 5mg, which is a minimal dose, equivalent to 0.5mg of ativan, and I never take it for more than a few weeks at a time. You're right that too much anxiety will block sexual response. It's vey hard to get an erection when you're being chased by a tiger :-) But, seriously, I think it is possible that SSRIs can upregulate the stress response after withdrawal, as Velden suggested, and this also might be part of the problem. > > Hi Vornan, which benzo do you take now? I take ativan from time to > time, I find it to be much easier and cleaner than something like > klonipin was. What is your theory behind the benzos? I remember > reading how people can't seem to get relaxed enough anymore and that > could be interfering with sex, so that could make sense to me. Also, > what kind of dose do you run? > > > What about combining a low-dose benzodiazepine with a dopamine > > agonist? That's what I'm trying now. > > > > Vornan > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 I think you're right. High DHEA may be from a Acetylcholine deficiency. The cure may be to supplement Acetylcholine and Dopamine to power the brain and liver function. From my research, the best way to boost Acetylcholine is to eat foods rich in Choline and to take Acetyl L-Carnitine supplements. This is from Dr Lin's actionlove site. Case Study: Lithium (for bipolar or mood swing) killed his liver and hypothalamus-pituitary-testicular axis for abnormal high DHEA, Pregnenolene, FSH, Prolactin and Etiocholane level with a low testosterone synthesis for no more erection and sexual orgasm Reader: 10/05/2005> I have emailed you before. Hello again, here are the levels you requested, I have a High DHEA(2268) Pregnenolene(1055) FSH(9.5) Prolactin (17.6) , and Etiocholane levels(3576). My Testosterone level is (398). My THB level is high at 390 and my 5a-THF levels is low at 677. I think it is from the lithium I took for 4 and a half years. I stopped lithium almost 2 years ago, but I am still having sexual dysfunction. Could these abnormal high and low levels be causing me sexual dysfunction even though my testosterone and free testosterone at(89.8) levels are in the normal range? Thanks for your time. Matt P.S. Can I return these abnormal levels to the normal range? Dr. Lin: 10/06/2005> Yes, you need a nervous and liver detoxification with ViaPal-hGH-J (3-015), DeToxiA(1-017) and 5-HTP (2-001), plus L-Arginine 500 mg 3 times a day. Your liver is too weak to support your hypothalamus-pituitary-testicular function essential to convert DHEA into testosterone and reduce prolactin release while boosting the oxytocinergic nervous action. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Generally, to correct the liver function, you have to power the acetylcholine/parasympathetic nervous systems. The liver activities are controlled by the parasympathetic nervous functions and the release of acetylcholine for the liver detoxification and enzymes productions. The liver enzymes are essential for the Cholesterol-testosterone/estrogen metabolic pathways, in conjunction with the action of Luteinizing Hormone, LH, (to testicular/ovarian functions) and AndrenoCorticoTropin Hormone, ACTH, (to adrenal functions) by the Anterior Pituitary. In the Cholesterol-testosterone metabolic pathways, the liver must provides the following enzymes: 1). Pathway 1 - P450-SCC (Cholesterol Side Chain Cleavage enzyme) for Cholesterol, 3B-HSD (3Beta-Hydroxysteriod Dehydrogenase/Isomerase) for Pregnenolone, P450-17A (17Alpa-dydroxylase) for progesterone and 17-OH-Progesterone, and 17B-HSOR (17Beta-Hydrosyteriod Oxidoreductase) for androstenedione; 2). Pathway 2 - 17 Alpha-Hydroxylase for Pregnenolone, Desmolase for 17-OH-Pregnenolone, 3 Beta-ol-dehydrogenase for DHEA to be converted to androstenedione. If your liver fails to produce one of the enzymes, you will have a low testosterone level. If you have a P450-SCC deficiency, you will have a high bad cholesterol level. If a body is overloaded by testosterone, estrogen or progesterone, the liver's P450 detoxification system will be too busy to provide sufficient P450-SCC and P450-17A. On the other, when the liver's parasympathetic nervous function is too weak, the liver will produce excessive P450 Arom (Aromatase) to convert testosterone to estradiol. If the brain's dopamine level is too high and the liver's sympathetic nervous function is too active, the liver will produce excessive 5-alpha reductase to DHT (Dyhdrostesterone). Although DHT is essential for penile/clitoral/G-spot enlargement, it causes prostate enlargement and hair loss for men when excessive DHT is bounded into the prostate tissues and hair rooting cells. You need DHT to increase the size of sex organs and to enhance sexual orgasm, but you don't it to bind into the hormonal receptors in the prostate and hair rooting cells. Over-masturbation will burn too much testosterone into DHT. A low dopamine level in the brain makes your pituitary become very lazy and force your liver to produce too much aromatase when your acetylcholine/parasympathetic nervous systems are underactive. http://www.actionlove.com/cases/case9382.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------- Acetylcholine rich foods include: egg yolks, peanuts, wheat germ, liver, meat, fish, milk, cheese and vegetables (especially brocolli, cabbage and cauliflower) Dopamine rich foods include: all proteins (meat, milk products, fish, beans, nuts, soy products) -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi, > > >My testosterone level was tested about 4 months ago and it was 189 and > my DHEA was in the 900's. > > Clearly there is a problem here. I don't see how supplementing T addresses > the fact that your body is unable to convert all that DHEA into testosterone in > the first place. That's where the problem is. 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Guest guest Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Can you make any sense out of half of what " Dr. " Lin theorizes? DHT is essential for penile enlargement? I'll have to keep that in mind. What's Etiocholane? Seriously, I think you may be right about low Acetycholine levels. I think many different neurotransmitters are deficient. The key is finding which ones and treat accordingly. Acetyl L-Carnitine is actually something Vornan has recommended in the past. I used it for a bit last year, and I think I'm going to start on another course shortly. Luther > > > > Hi, > > > > >My testosterone level was tested about 4 months ago and it was 189 and > > my DHEA was in the 900's. > > > > Clearly there is a problem here. I don't see how supplementing T > addresses > > the fact that your body is unable to convert all that DHEA into > testosterone in > > the first place. That's where the problem is. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 this sounds interesting, it could be another important findings. but why would you take Acetyl L-Carnitine when there is Choline and Lecithin ? would Acetyl L-Carnitine and choline be like the difference between l-tyrosine and DPLA. > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > >My testosterone level was tested about 4 months ago and it was > 189 and > > > my DHEA was in the 900's. > > > > > > Clearly there is a problem here. I don't see how supplementing T > > addresses > > > the fact that your body is unable to convert all that DHEA into > > testosterone in > > > the first place. That's where the problem is. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 > What's Etiocholane? That's what I was wondering. I'm not totally sure, but apparently it's a liver enzyme or metabolite that has to do with androgens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2006 Report Share Posted April 7, 2006 I' m not sure who this post was for but I thought I'd respond anyway. Balancing out the autonomic nervous system is very important. I actually stopped taking L-carnitine a while ago because it makes me feel...not good. As far as natural supplementation goes, DLPA and tyrosine seem to help me the most. I need to keep pushing the dopamine and norepinephrine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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