More on the oral contraceptive study

[Guest guest]

http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/HRT/tb/2423Note the last few paragraphs:The investigators suggested that prolonged exposure to the synthetic estrogens found in oral contraceptives may trigger permanent changes in gene expression that leads to the elevated levels of sex hormone-binding globulin. The authors cautioned that their study sample is small and that the participants took a variety of oral contraceptives for various lengths of time. It is not known then whether there is a dose-response relationship. However, on the basis of these results, the researchers suggested that the next step should be whether a longer study would allow for a reversal of these effects. "Further research is needed to identify whether sex hormone-binding globulin changes induced by oral contraceptives may or may not be completely reversible after discontinuation of oral contraceptive use and whether this leads to long-term sexual, metabolic, and mental health changes in women," they concluded.

[Guest guest]

Isn't SHBG indirectly related to free T? My free T has never been

that bad, usually towards the middle of the range. Not many docs

test for SHBG or know what it is.

Luther

>

>

> http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/HRT/tb/2423

>

> Note the last few paragraphs:

>

> The investigators suggested that prolonged exposure to the

synthetic estrogens found in oral contraceptives may trigger

permanent changes in gene expression that leads to the elevated

levels of sex hormone-binding globulin.

>

>

> The authors cautioned that their study sample is small and that

the participants took a variety of oral contraceptives for various

lengths of time. It is not known then whether there is a dose-

response relationship.

>

>

> However, on the basis of these results, the researchers suggested

that the next step should be whether a longer study would allow for

a reversal of these effects.

>

>

> " Further research is needed to identify whether sex hormone-

binding globulin changes induced by oral contraceptives may or may

not be completely reversible after discontinuation of oral

contraceptive use and whether this leads to long-term sexual,

metabolic, and mental health changes in women, " they concluded.

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, it is. The lower the SHBG, the more free T.

> >

> >

> > http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/HRT/tb/2423

> >

> > Note the last few paragraphs:

> >

> > The investigators suggested that prolonged exposure to the

> synthetic estrogens found in oral contraceptives may trigger

> permanent changes in gene expression that leads to the elevated

> levels of sex hormone-binding globulin.

> >

> >

> > The authors cautioned that their study sample is small and that

> the participants took a variety of oral contraceptives for various

> lengths of time. It is not known then whether there is a dose-

> response relationship.

> >

> >

> > However, on the basis of these results, the researchers

suggested

> that the next step should be whether a longer study would allow

for

> a reversal of these effects.

> >

> >

> > " Further research is needed to identify whether sex hormone-

> binding globulin changes induced by oral contraceptives may or may

> not be completely reversible after discontinuation of oral

> contraceptive use and whether this leads to long-term sexual,

> metabolic, and mental health changes in women, " they concluded.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Just to clarify: I don't think the pricipal mechanism of SSRI - induced sexual

dysfunction is increased

SHBG. I think it's probably something completely different. But what is

important is that they are

suggesting the OTC can cause long-term gene expression changes. The notion that

gene expression

changes can be caused by medications and that these changes can persist after

the medictaion is

discontinued is new, and I think we'll hear much more about it in the future.

Vornan

> > >

> > >

> > > http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/HRT/tb/2423

> > >

> > > Note the last few paragraphs:

> > >

> > > The investigators suggested that prolonged exposure to the

> > synthetic estrogens found in oral contraceptives may trigger

> > permanent changes in gene expression that leads to the elevated

> > levels of sex hormone-binding globulin.

> > >

> > >

> > > The authors cautioned that their study sample is small and that

> > the participants took a variety of oral contraceptives for various

> > lengths of time. It is not known then whether there is a dose-

> > response relationship.

> > >

> > >

> > > However, on the basis of these results, the researchers

> suggested

> > that the next step should be whether a longer study would allow

> for

> > a reversal of these effects.

> > >

> > >

> > > " Further research is needed to identify whether sex hormone-

> > binding globulin changes induced by oral contraceptives may or may

> > not be completely reversible after discontinuation of oral

> > contraceptive use and whether this leads to long-term sexual,

> > metabolic, and mental health changes in women, " they concluded.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Understood. At this point I tend to blame screwed up brain chemistry

more than hormone issues for this problem. Though bad brain

chemistry leads to bad endocrine function...

Luther

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/HRT/tb/2423

> > > >

> > > > Note the last few paragraphs:

> > > >

> > > > The investigators suggested that prolonged exposure to the

> > > synthetic estrogens found in oral contraceptives may trigger

> > > permanent changes in gene expression that leads to the

elevated

> > > levels of sex hormone-binding globulin.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The authors cautioned that their study sample is small and

that

> > > the participants took a variety of oral contraceptives for

various

> > > lengths of time. It is not known then whether there is a dose-

> > > response relationship.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > However, on the basis of these results, the researchers

> > suggested

> > > that the next step should be whether a longer study would

allow

> > for

> > > a reversal of these effects.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > " Further research is needed to identify whether sex hormone-

> > > binding globulin changes induced by oral contraceptives may or

may

> > > not be completely reversible after discontinuation of oral

> > > contraceptive use and whether this leads to long-term sexual,

> > > metabolic, and mental health changes in women, " they concluded.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I agree that the hormonal alterations are most likely secondary.

In SSRIsex , " lightsoutluther " <lightsoutluther@y...>

wrote:

>

>

> Understood. At this point I tend to blame screwed up brain

chemistry

> more than hormone issues for this problem. Though bad brain

> chemistry leads to bad endocrine function...

>

> Luther

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/HRT/tb/2423

> > > > >

> > > > > Note the last few paragraphs:

> > > > >

> > > > > The investigators suggested that prolonged exposure to the

> > > > synthetic estrogens found in oral contraceptives may trigger

> > > > permanent changes in gene expression that leads to the

> elevated

> > > > levels of sex hormone-binding globulin.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The authors cautioned that their study sample is small and

> that

> > > > the participants took a variety of oral contraceptives for

> various

> > > > lengths of time. It is not known then whether there is a dose-

> > > > response relationship.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > However, on the basis of these results, the researchers

> > > suggested

> > > > that the next step should be whether a longer study would

> allow

> > > for

> > > > a reversal of these effects.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > " Further research is needed to identify whether sex hormone-

> > > > binding globulin changes induced by oral contraceptives may

or

> may

> > > > not be completely reversible after discontinuation of oral

> > > > contraceptive use and whether this leads to long-term sexual,

> > > > metabolic, and mental health changes in women, " they

concluded.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting reading.

It seems to me that a change in gene expression could very well be the

cause of our problems. In our case I think we're talking about a

change in the way our dopamine receptors work.

It seems like I have enough dopamine in my brain. It just isn't

working right. The problems are strictly related to emotions,

sexuality and skin sensitivity. I have no problems in my movements,

muscle strength and so on.

Dopamine agonists imitate dopamine. But I don't think they are exactly

the same thing. Without medication I'm totally numb, with a dopamine

agonist I sometimes get " an imitation " of sexual feelings.

I wonder if a genuine dopamine-rush would make me feel anything? Are

the dopamine receptors related to emotions and sexuality able to

function normally?

Just a few thoughts...

Biker

> >

> >

> > Understood. At this point I tend to blame screwed up brain

> chemistry

> > more than hormone issues for this problem. Though bad brain

> > chemistry leads to bad endocrine function...

> >

> > Luther

[Guest guest]

Ive heard that people release whole bunch of dopamine at the

beginning part of falling in love.

here is interesting site about dopamine and sex

http://www.reuniting.info/science/sex_in_the_brain

> > >

> > >

> > > Understood. At this point I tend to blame screwed up brain

> > chemistry

> > > more than hormone issues for this problem. Though bad brain

> > > chemistry leads to bad endocrine function...

> > >

> > > Luther

>

[Guest guest]

Anyone have connections with the Journal of Sexual Medicine? Wishful

thinking...

Vornan, do you know when your paper goes to press?

>

>

> http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/HRT/tb/2423

>

> Note the last few paragraphs:

>

> The investigators suggested that prolonged exposure to the

synthetic estrogens found in oral contraceptives may trigger

permanent changes in gene expression that leads to the elevated

levels of sex hormone-binding globulin.

>

>

> The authors cautioned that their study sample is small and that the

participants took a variety of oral contraceptives for various

lengths of time. It is not known then whether there is a dose-

response relationship.

>

>

> However, on the basis of these results, the researchers suggested

that the next step should be whether a longer study would allow for a

reversal of these effects.

>

>

> " Further research is needed to identify whether sex hormone-binding

globulin changes induced by oral contraceptives may or may not be

completely reversible after discontinuation of oral contraceptive use

and whether this leads to long-term sexual, metabolic, and mental

health changes in women, " they concluded.

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I have corresponded with Dr. Irwin Goldstein who is the editor

in chief? WHy do you ask?

I think the paper should be out next month, March at the latest.

How are you doing?

> >

> >

> > http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/HRT/tb/2423

> >

> > Note the last few paragraphs:

> >

> > The investigators suggested that prolonged exposure to the

> synthetic estrogens found in oral contraceptives may trigger

> permanent changes in gene expression that leads to the elevated

> levels of sex hormone-binding globulin.

> >

> >

> > The authors cautioned that their study sample is small and that

the

> participants took a variety of oral contraceptives for various

> lengths of time. It is not known then whether there is a dose-

> response relationship.

> >

> >

> > However, on the basis of these results, the researchers

suggested

> that the next step should be whether a longer study would allow

for a

> reversal of these effects.

> >

> >

> > " Further research is needed to identify whether sex hormone-

binding

> globulin changes induced by oral contraceptives may or may not be

> completely reversible after discontinuation of oral contraceptive

use

> and whether this leads to long-term sexual, metabolic, and mental

> health changes in women, " they concluded.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Oh, it just seems like a highly esteemed journal, that's all, one that doctors

would

take more seriously. So far anytime I've mentioned cases of long-lasting sexual

side

effects, doctors always say that they are skeptical of case studies, and that

they

haven't come across anything in the literature. Hopefully they will take your

article

seriously...

I am not doing so well. Back on buspar after a pretty bad bout of depression

and

anxiety where I was having trouble eating. I've found that buspar helps me, but

the

effect is inconsistent and does not feel normal. It's like Biker said, you can

have

sexual feelings but they feel like the product of a chemical mimic. Buspar

gives me

desire in a weird way, but still no response to visual, tactile, auditory

stimulation. My

psychiatrist believes that I am depressed and that I need psychotherapy, which

is

frustrating because I am depressed but the root of it is what I feel as the loss

of my

sexual/romantic identity. I'm beginning to realize that I am a different

person, and it

is disturbing. I'm not quite sure what to do next, though still thinking about

hcg.

Did you or anyone else get any benefit from hcg? I remember you had to stop it

early...

> > >

> > >

> > > http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/HRT/tb/2423

> > >

> > > Note the last few paragraphs:

> > >

> > > The investigators suggested that prolonged exposure to the

> > synthetic estrogens found in oral contraceptives may trigger

> > permanent changes in gene expression that leads to the elevated

> > levels of sex hormone-binding globulin.

> > >

> > >

> > > The authors cautioned that their study sample is small and that

> the

> > participants took a variety of oral contraceptives for various

> > lengths of time. It is not known then whether there is a dose-

> > response relationship.

> > >

> > >

> > > However, on the basis of these results, the researchers

> suggested

> > that the next step should be whether a longer study would allow

> for a

> > reversal of these effects.

> > >

> > >

> > > " Further research is needed to identify whether sex hormone-

> binding

> > globulin changes induced by oral contraceptives may or may not be

> > completely reversible after discontinuation of oral contraceptive

> use

> > and whether this leads to long-term sexual, metabolic, and mental

> > health changes in women, " they concluded.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Oh, it just seems like a highly esteemed journal, that's all, one

that doctors would

> take more seriously. So far anytime I've mentioned cases of long-

lasting sexual side

> effects, doctors always say that they are skeptical of case

studies, and that they

> haven't come across anything in the literature. Hopefully they

will take your article

> seriously...

I think some will believe it and some will inevitably try to

discredit it. It will be a long fight IMO.

>

> I am not doing so well. Back on buspar after a pretty bad bout of

depression and

> anxiety where I was having trouble eating. I've found that buspar

helps me, but the

> effect is inconsistent and does not feel normal. It's like Biker

said, you can have

> sexual feelings but they feel like the product of a chemical

mimic. Buspar gives me

> desire in a weird way, but still no response to visual, tactile,

auditory stimulation.

Then in what way does it give you desire?

My

> psychiatrist believes that I am depressed and that I need

psychotherapy, which is

> frustrating because I am depressed but the root of it is what I

feel as the loss of my

> sexual/romantic identity. I'm beginning to realize that I am a

different person, and it

> is disturbing. I'm not quite sure what to do next, though still

thinking about hcg.

>

> Did you or anyone else get any benefit from hcg? I remember you

had to stop it

> early...

HCG raised my estradiol too much so I switched to T shots. But so

far my experience with raining T has me believing that it is more to

do with neurotranmitters than hormones. Or it is a combination of

both, and you need to fix both.

>

>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/HRT/tb/2423

> > > >

> > > > Note the last few paragraphs:

> > > >

> > > > The investigators suggested that prolonged exposure to the

> > > synthetic estrogens found in oral contraceptives may trigger

> > > permanent changes in gene expression that leads to the

elevated

> > > levels of sex hormone-binding globulin.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The authors cautioned that their study sample is small and

that

> > the

> > > participants took a variety of oral contraceptives for various

> > > lengths of time. It is not known then whether there is a dose-

> > > response relationship.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > However, on the basis of these results, the researchers

> > suggested

> > > that the next step should be whether a longer study would

allow

> > for a

> > > reversal of these effects.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > " Further research is needed to identify whether sex hormone-

> > binding

> > > globulin changes induced by oral contraceptives may or may not

be

> > > completely reversible after discontinuation of oral

contraceptive

> > use

> > > and whether this leads to long-term sexual, metabolic, and

mental

> > > health changes in women, " they concluded.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

There was a paper published last year showing that SSRIs can cause

dopamine receptors to process serotonin instead of dopamine. This

is because the SSRIs cause such an abnormal overload of serotonin in

the brain. So it could be that if the dopamine receptors are no

longer processing dopamine properly because of the serotonin

overload, that you need to introduce a slightly different molecule,

namely a dopamine agonist, to get them to work right. Just a

thought.

How do you mean that the sexuality from DAs is an imitation?

> > >

> > >

> > > Understood. At this point I tend to blame screwed up brain

> > chemistry

> > > more than hormone issues for this problem. Though bad brain

> > > chemistry leads to bad endocrine function...

> > >

> > > Luther

>

[Guest guest]

>

> There was a paper published last year showing that SSRIs can cause

> dopamine receptors to process serotonin instead of dopamine.

> How do you mean that the sexuality from DAs is an imitation?

Vornan, could you find the document you mentioned? I'd appreciate it.

What comes to the returning sexuality caused by DA's, the feeling is

not quite the same as before. Hard to put my finger on it, but I'm

still missing the best peak of desire. Sometimes I get very close to

normal, but... it's not yet exactly the same as before.

Right now I'm trying to hold back a little. I'll try not to ejaculate

in a couple of weeks. Just to see if it brings back anything.

Biker

[Guest guest]

The paper is very technical but I sent it to you anyway by email. I

also sent a commentary on the findings published in the same issue

of the journal. For a more digestible version of the story see

's previous post (on the other thread).

BTW, have you started requip yet or are you still on dostinex? I'm

starting dostinex next week, although at a much lower dose than what

you are taking.

Vornan

-- In SSRIsex , " bikercompany " <bikercompany@y...>

wrote:

>

>

> >

> > There was a paper published last year showing that SSRIs can

cause

> > dopamine receptors to process serotonin instead of dopamine.

>

> > How do you mean that the sexuality from DAs is an imitation?

>

>

> Vornan, could you find the document you mentioned? I'd appreciate

it.

>

> What comes to the returning sexuality caused by DA's, the feeling

is

> not quite the same as before. Hard to put my finger on it, but I'm

> still missing the best peak of desire. Sometimes I get very close

to

> normal, but... it's not yet exactly the same as before.

>

> Right now I'm trying to hold back a little. I'll try not to

ejaculate

> in a couple of weeks. Just to see if it brings back anything.

>

> Biker

>

[Guest guest]

>

> The paper is very technical but I sent it to you anyway by email. I

> also sent a commentary on the findings published in the same issue

> of the journal. > BTW, have you started requip yet or are you still

on dostinex? I'm

> starting dostinex next week, > Vornan

Thanks V,

I'm already on Requip, increasing the dose a little by little. I'm

currently taking 3x3 pills a day (25 mg's). So far I have nothing

special to report, I have moments when my libido suddenly emerges only

to disappear completely a few minutes later...

Good luck with Dostinex, it's the very best drug I've tried. I hope it

does the trick for you!!!

Biker

[Guest guest]

Hi Biker,

Do you think the dosage could be too high? 25 mg/day is right at the

top of the range they give to patients with Parkinson's disease.

I've heard of people recovering libido and orgasms from 1 mg /day.

Vornan

-- In SSRIsex , " bikercompany " <bikercompany@y...>

wrote:

>

>

> >

> > The paper is very technical but I sent it to you anyway by

email. I

> > also sent a commentary on the findings published in the same

issue

> > of the journal. > BTW, have you started requip yet or are you

still

> on dostinex? I'm

> > starting dostinex next week, > Vornan

>

> Thanks V,

>

> I'm already on Requip, increasing the dose a little by little. I'm

> currently taking 3x3 pills a day (25 mg's). So far I have nothing

> special to report, I have moments when my libido suddenly emerges

only

> to disappear completely a few minutes later...

>

> Good luck with Dostinex, it's the very best drug I've tried. I

hope it

> does the trick for you!!!

>

> Biker

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Biker,

>

> Do you think the dosage could be too high? 25 mg/day is right at the

> top of the range

Yep, you're absolutely right. My bad. What I meant to say is that I'm

taking three 0,25mg pills 3 times a day. So right now my dose is 2,25

mg's a day.

I guess the dose could stay closer to 1 mg?

I'll have to try to find the right amount...

Biker

[Guest guest]

hey biker, I was wondering if you have tried wellbutrin before. I think

in the past post you have said you did. If so, how and what is the

difference between wellbutrin and dostinex. Which in your opinion is

had more positive affect?

[Guest guest]

>

> hey biker, I was wondering if you have tried wellbutrin before. I

think

> in the past post you have said you did. If so, how and what is the

> difference between wellbutrin and dostinex. Which in your opinion

is

> had more positive affect?

I did try Wellbutrin, but only for about a week. Then my doctor wanted

me to try Buspar and that's what I did. I still have Wellbutrin " in

reserve " , because the initial response was a good one. During that one

week Wellbutrin improved my poor skin sensitivity significantly.

I haven't tried Wellbutrin since, because my doctor wanted me to stay

off the re-uptake inhibitors for a while. But I might go back on it in

the future if dopamine agonists fail.

Biker

[Guest guest]

> I haven't tried Wellbutrin since, because my doctor wanted me to

stay

> off the re-uptake inhibitors for a while. But I might go back on

it in

> the future if dopamine agonists fail.

> Biker

I agree with your doctor. Assuming all of us have some sort of

neurotransmitter deficiency, I'm not sure WB is a good idea. Some

believe re-uptake inhibitors ultimately deplete neurotransmitter

levels, I think I posted a link on this a while back. This is

obviously just a theory, but I think this is true at least of the

SSRIs.

I initially had a good response to WB. Slight improvement in arousal

and libido, though nothing major. In the end, I regressed and it

simply made me irritable.

I think dopamine agonists and selegiline are the current best

options, with WB a very distant third.

Luther

[Guest guest]

Hi Luther and others,

Interesting to hear this; I am about to try Dostinex.

Does anyone know of possibly detrimental side-effects,

like irreversible damage to endocrine system or

neurotransmitters ?

(I have read the side-effects profile on internet of

course but they seem pretty mild.)

--- lightsoutluther wrote:

> I think dopamine agonists and selegiline are the

> current best

> options, with WB a very distant third.

>

> Luther

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________

Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.

Just $16.99/mo. or less.

dsl.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Yea, I was questioning how wellbutrin worked. I think I stay on SAM-

E for awhile or maybe tyrosine/mucuna puriens instead of wellbutrin.

This re-uptake inhibitors makes me question, if we might have

serotonin problem along with dopamine. Im sure SSRI did something to

our serotonin receptor. Right now, are we producing more or less of

serotonin ? Maybe we need to produce more serotonin along with

dopamine? Just a questionable thought.

>

> > I haven't tried Wellbutrin since, because my doctor wanted me to

> stay

> > off the re-uptake inhibitors for a while. But I might go back on

> it in

> > the future if dopamine agonists fail.

> > Biker

>

>

> I agree with your doctor. Assuming all of us have some sort of

> neurotransmitter deficiency, I'm not sure WB is a good idea. Some

> believe re-uptake inhibitors ultimately deplete neurotransmitter

> levels, I think I posted a link on this a while back. This is

> obviously just a theory, but I think this is true at least of the

> SSRIs.

>

> I initially had a good response to WB. Slight improvement in

arousal

> and libido, though nothing major. In the end, I regressed and it

> simply made me irritable.

>

> I think dopamine agonists and selegiline are the current best

> options, with WB a very distant third.

>

> Luther

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Yea, I was questioning how wellbutrin worked. I think I stay on SAM-

> E for awhile or maybe tyrosine/mucuna puriens instead of wellbutrin.

> This re-uptake inhibitors makes me question, if we might have

> serotonin problem along with dopamine. Im sure SSRI did something to

> our serotonin receptor. Right now, are we producing more or less of

> serotonin ? Maybe we need to produce more serotonin along with

> dopamine? Just a questionable thought.

>

I believe we are producing less of everything, including serotonin.

From what I can gather, I have symptoms of low serotonin, dopamine,

and norepinephrine. Maybe just a slight boost to all 3 of these would

get us back on track.

Luther

[Guest guest]

I think this would be a very important question to answer. I suppose

upregulation of MAOs would be the easiest way for the brain to reduce

all three major neurotransmitters and an MAOI would indeed be the

easiest way to fix it.

V

I think i

> I believe we are producing less of everything, including serotonin.

> From what I can gather, I have symptoms of low serotonin, dopamine,

> and norepinephrine. Maybe just a slight boost to all 3 of these

would

> get us back on track.

>

> Luther

>