Re: Late stage Syphilis not curable either

[Guest guest]

To whom ever might be interested second and third stage syphilis cannot be cured. Like the Bb spirochete it goes into cell wall deficient stages, invades the tissues deeply, red cells and white cells, CNS. No Doctor with any knowledge will claim to cure syphilis beyond the first stage, Put it into remission in the second stage, yes, very possible, but cure cannot be guaranteed. Prof. Carol

In a message dated 8/7/05 9:26:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, usenethod@... writes:

I have been thinking a lot about syphilis, and how similar it is to > Lyme. I "love" syphilis!> I don't think doctors question Syphilis, so why do they > question Lyme. In fact there is NO pathogensis for chronic syphilis and just like lyme they cant seem to find enough of the bacteria to explain anything. Apparantly chronic syphilis has NEVER been studied with the electron microscope. It is accepted universally mainly because it is treatable... after a brief treatment it apparantly fails to progress (always?) and usually symptoms resolve. At least according to what they tell ya. But it used to be very very abundant and now it is very rare so the lit seems to be correct. THis response to abx is why it is concluded to be an infectious disease by everyone.The residual sx that occur in apparantly a minority of cases (eg seizure, etc in neurosyphilis) are attributed by some to damage, but it sounds like there is not definitive evidence.> I wonder what drug they use to treat syphylis? Have they tried it on > us. Almost exclusively benzylpenicillin, ie penicillin G.

[Guest guest]

The problem may lie in the oppurtunistic pathogens taking hold in

the long term sufferer. My only problem is that they possably use

the undermedicated model- to not bother trying a long hard course of

IV treatment to see if this would make the difference. Remember

early syphilis is treated by pill form abx, late syphilis deserves

more respect in the treatment stakes.

I also recall reading that caught eraly enough strep throat should

copmpletely clear with the right course of treatment, left too long

it's also a life long battle- this organism only adheres to certain

cells which makes it an organisms of high virulence yet low systemic

risk.

tony

> To whom ever might be interested second and third stage syphilis

cannot be

> cured. Like the Bb spirochete it goes into cell wall deficient

stages, invades

> the tissues deeply, red cells and white cells, CNS. No Doctor with

any

> knowledge will claim to cure syphilis beyond the first stage, Put

it into remission in

> the second stage, yes, very possible, but cure cannot be

guaranteed. Prof.

> Carol

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 8/7/05 9:26:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> usenethod@y... writes:

> I have been thinking a lot about syphilis, and how similar it is

to

> > Lyme.

>

> I " love " syphilis!

>

> > I don't think doctors question Syphilis, so why do they

> > question Lyme.

>

> In fact there is NO pathogensis for chronic syphilis and just like

> lyme they cant seem to find enough of the bacteria to explain

> anything. Apparantly chronic syphilis has NEVER been studied with

the

> electron microscope. It is accepted universally mainly because it

is

> treatable... after a brief treatment it apparantly fails to

progress

> (always?) and usually symptoms resolve. At least according to what

> they tell ya. But it used to be very very abundant and now it is

very

> rare so the lit seems to be correct. THis response to abx is why

it

> is concluded to be an infectious disease by everyone.

>

> The residual sx that occur in apparantly a minority of cases (eg

> seizure, etc in neurosyphilis) are attributed by some to damage,

but

> it sounds like there is not definitive evidence.

>

> > I wonder what drug they use to treat syphylis? Have they tried

it

> on

> > us.

>

> Almost exclusively benzylpenicillin, ie penicillin G.

[Guest guest]

EJFISCH@a... wrote:

> > To whom ever might be interested second and third stage syphilis

> cannot be

> > cured. Like the Bb spirochete it goes into cell wall deficient

> stages, invades

> > the tissues deeply, red cells and white cells, CNS. No Doctor with

> any

> > knowledge will claim to cure syphilis beyond the first stage, Put

> it into remission in

> > the second stage, yes, very possible, but cure cannot be

> guaranteed. Prof.

> > Carol

There are definitely persisters after treatment that are

morphologically serologically Tp; one can all-but-conclude on that

basis that they are Tp. But their infectivity seems to be poor at

best... I think people tend to say " cure " insofar as there is rather

poor transmissability of these organisms that persist after treatment,

and apparantly progression after treatment is unusual, and residual

symptoms unclear in cause. And on the face of it, it seems like if the

residual symptoms were caused by ongoing virulent infection,

progression would be much commoner. But I certainly wont say I'm sure

I know whats up with syphilis, since obviously the journal lit on Bb

is often a bunch of arbitrary junk; without reading lots of patient

testimony one knows nothing about Bb disease.

Med Hypotheses. 1992 Sep;39(1):35-40. Related Articles, Links

Is syphilis an incurable disease?

Ghinsberg RC, Nitzan Y.

Rappaport National Reference Center for Treponematoses and Sexually

Transmitted Diseases, Public Health Laboratory, Tel Aviv, Israel.

Structures which morphologically resemble treponemes have been found

in material from patients suffering from latent or late latent

syphilis, many of whom have received treatment in the past. These

structures were also found in the blood or spinal fluid (SF) of

asymptomatic patients with both positive and negative serological

tests for syphilis. They have been found in the eye in the presence of

active disease as well as in cases without inflammation ('quiet eye').

In latent syphilis, the presence of treponemes after penicillin

treatment raises the question of whether the patient is completely

cured of syphilis after treatment. Experimental evidence indicates

that continued specific antibody production following penicillin

treatment depends on the persistence of the specific antigen in the

body. This raised three questions: a) Are these stimuli living

treponemes? Are they still virulent? c) Is syphilis completely

curable following penicillin treatment? Our hypothesis is that slowly

dividing treponemes are not killed by penicillin. The persistence of

living treponemes somewhere in the body may be the proof of this

hypothesis. Cases of relapsing neurosyphilis after penicillin

treatment have recently been described. We return to the old dilemma:

is it a scar-tissue injury or a reactivation of the disease? Since

neurosyphilis is asymptomatic, the patient is usually examined because

of seroconversion. Only repeated serological analyses and clinical

observations of treated cases with immediate penicillin administration

can prevent relapse and damage to the central nervous system (CNS) or

to other parts of the body.

PMID: 1435390 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

Yep, Tony, if you read the literature on syphilis treatment one of

the many pathetic facts that jumps out at you is that (in the rare

studies where they bother to check), CSF levels of penicillin are

usually either undetectable or a tiny fraction of the minimally

treponomicidal level.

This study from Denmark used a short-term but much more aggressive

regimen with apparently good results - but I mostly posted it

because it was such a delightful suprise to see the CFS level

actually EXCEED the minimum MBC for a change.

S.

Acta Derm Venereol. 2003;83(5):365-8. Related Articles, Links

Short-time, high-dosage penicillin infusion therapy of syphilis: an

alternative to recommended regimens?

Lomholt H, Poulsen A, Brandrup F, Andersen KE.

Department of Dermatology, Aarhus Amtssygehus, Aarhus, Denmark.

hans.lomholt@...

The optimal dosage and duration of penicillin treatment for the

various stages of syphilis are not known. We present data on 20

patients with syphilis (primary, secondary or latent) treated with

high-dose, short-time penicillin infusion therapy. Patients were

given 10 MIU of penicillin G intravenously every 6 h up to a total

dose of 90 MIU within 48 h. No adverse reactions were registered but

9 patients showed a Herxheimer reaction. Four patients were lost to

follow-up and the remaining 16 were serologically and clinically

followed for mean 18.5 months (range 3-36).

During this period, the Wassermann reaction turned negative for 12

patients and was reduced more than fourfold for the rest, with one

exception. None of the patients showed clinical signs of active

syphilis following treatment. The cerebrospinal fluid penicillin

concentration was measured in one patient during treatment and found

to be much higher than the minimally treponemacidal concentration

generally recommended. The treatment modality is reviewed and

discussed and it may provide an alternative to conventional

treatment regimens of early syphilis.

PMID: 14609106 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

> The problem may lie in the oppurtunistic pathogens taking hold in

> the long term sufferer. My only problem is that they possably use

> the undermedicated model- to not bother trying a long hard course

of

> IV treatment to see if this would make the difference. Remember

> early syphilis is treated by pill form abx, late syphilis deserves

> more respect in the treatment stakes.

> I also recall reading that caught eraly enough strep throat should

> copmpletely clear with the right course of treatment, left too

long

> it's also a life long battle- this organism only adheres to

certain

> cells which makes it an organisms of high virulence yet low

systemic

> risk.

>

> tony

>

>

>

>

> --- In infections , EJFISCH@a...

wrote:

> > To whom ever might be interested second and third stage syphilis

> cannot be

> > cured. Like the Bb spirochete it goes into cell wall deficient

> stages, invades

> > the tissues deeply, red cells and white cells, CNS. No Doctor

with

> any

> > knowledge will claim to cure syphilis beyond the first stage,

Put

> it into remission in

> > the second stage, yes, very possible, but cure cannot be

> guaranteed. Prof.

> > Carol

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 8/7/05 9:26:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > usenethod@y... writes:

> > I have been thinking a lot about syphilis, and how similar it is

> to

> > > Lyme.

> >

> > I " love " syphilis!

> >

> > > I don't think doctors question Syphilis, so why do they

> > > question Lyme.

> >

> > In fact there is NO pathogensis for chronic syphilis and just

like

> > lyme they cant seem to find enough of the bacteria to explain

> > anything. Apparantly chronic syphilis has NEVER been studied

with

> the

> > electron microscope. It is accepted universally mainly because

it

> is

> > treatable... after a brief treatment it apparantly fails to

> progress

> > (always?) and usually symptoms resolve. At least according to

what

> > they tell ya. But it used to be very very abundant and now it is

> very

> > rare so the lit seems to be correct. THis response to abx is why

> it

> > is concluded to be an infectious disease by everyone.

> >

> > The residual sx that occur in apparantly a minority of cases (eg

> > seizure, etc in neurosyphilis) are attributed by some to damage,

> but

> > it sounds like there is not definitive evidence.

> >

> > > I wonder what drug they use to treat syphylis? Have they tried

> it

> > on

> > > us.

> >

> > Almost exclusively benzylpenicillin, ie penicillin G.

[Guest guest]

Here's another one for ya, this time more focused on neurosyphilis...

Przegl Dermatol. 1989 May-Jun;76(3):256-61. Related Articles, Links

[Results of the treatment of neurosyphilis and seroresistant latent

syphilis by intravenous administration of potassium salt of

penicillin G]

[Article in Polish]

Kaminski A, Gede K, Owsinska H.

Potassium penicillin G was administered intravenously 4 times daily

in doses of 6 million u for 10 days to 49 patients, 36 with central

nervous system syphilis and 13 with latent seroresistant syphilis.

Forty six patients were followed up after treatment. In 16 patients

with central nervous system syphilis treated by this method another

cerebrospinal fluid examination was done. Cerebrospinal fluid

changes regressed completely in 13 patients, in three cases the

improvement was incomplete.

The titres of VDRL and FTA tests decreased in 23 patients with

central nervous system syphilis and in 11 with latent seroresistant

syphilis. In eight patients treated by this method seroresistance

persisted and in four cases the titre fluctuated. The results of the

study demonstrate the effectiveness and advantages of the treatment

of central nervous system syphilis and latent seroresistant syphilis

with crystalline penicillin administered intravenously.

PMID: 2629031 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

> > > To whom ever might be interested second and third stage

syphilis

> > cannot be

> > > cured. Like the Bb spirochete it goes into cell wall deficient

> > stages, invades

> > > the tissues deeply, red cells and white cells, CNS. No Doctor

> with

> > any

> > > knowledge will claim to cure syphilis beyond the first stage,

> Put

> > it into remission in

> > > the second stage, yes, very possible, but cure cannot be

> > guaranteed. Prof.

> > > Carol

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > In a message dated 8/7/05 9:26:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > > usenethod@y... writes:

> > > I have been thinking a lot about syphilis, and how similar it

is

> > to

> > > > Lyme.

> > >

> > > I " love " syphilis!

> > >

> > > > I don't think doctors question Syphilis, so why do they

> > > > question Lyme.

> > >

> > > In fact there is NO pathogensis for chronic syphilis and just

> like

> > > lyme they cant seem to find enough of the bacteria to explain

> > > anything. Apparantly chronic syphilis has NEVER been studied

> with

> > the

> > > electron microscope. It is accepted universally mainly because

> it

> > is

> > > treatable... after a brief treatment it apparantly fails to

> > progress

> > > (always?) and usually symptoms resolve. At least according to

> what

> > > they tell ya. But it used to be very very abundant and now it

is

> > very

> > > rare so the lit seems to be correct. THis response to abx is

why

> > it

> > > is concluded to be an infectious disease by everyone.

> > >

> > > The residual sx that occur in apparantly a minority of cases

(eg

> > > seizure, etc in neurosyphilis) are attributed by some to

damage,

> > but

> > > it sounds like there is not definitive evidence.

> > >

> > > > I wonder what drug they use to treat syphylis? Have they

tried

> > it

> > > on

> > > > us.

> > >

> > > Almost exclusively benzylpenicillin, ie penicillin G.

[Guest guest]

This is what worries me, it's the easy patients get cared for and

the difficult patients are turfed. I get angry because I know from

experience that when the bugs meet the drug the bugs loose- the only

variable for me is the duration- I use the model profuse growth,

medium growth , sparse growth and then intermittent sparse growth to

guide my therapy.I would hate to be told that when given penicillin

a drug that beats syphillis 100% of the time that the reaction

guides the treatment.Stirring up a late stage infection has to have

consequences in any of the pathogens- wether syphillis or

streptococcal.

Basically you are in only a win situaution if someone tries

something- everything else is rediculous.

> > > To whom ever might be interested second and third stage

syphilis

> > cannot be

> > > cured. Like the Bb spirochete it goes into cell wall deficient

> > stages, invades

> > > the tissues deeply, red cells and white cells, CNS. No Doctor

> with

> > any

> > > knowledge will claim to cure syphilis beyond the first stage,

> Put

> > it into remission in

> > > the second stage, yes, very possible, but cure cannot be

> > guaranteed. Prof.

> > > Carol

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > In a message dated 8/7/05 9:26:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > > usenethod@y... writes:

> > > I have been thinking a lot about syphilis, and how similar it

is

> > to

> > > > Lyme.

> > >

> > > I " love " syphilis!

> > >

> > > > I don't think doctors question Syphilis, so why do they

> > > > question Lyme.

> > >

> > > In fact there is NO pathogensis for chronic syphilis and just

> like

> > > lyme they cant seem to find enough of the bacteria to explain

> > > anything. Apparantly chronic syphilis has NEVER been studied

> with

> > the

> > > electron microscope. It is accepted universally mainly because

> it

> > is

> > > treatable... after a brief treatment it apparantly fails to

> > progress

> > > (always?) and usually symptoms resolve. At least according to

> what

> > > they tell ya. But it used to be very very abundant and now it

is

> > very

> > > rare so the lit seems to be correct. THis response to abx is

why

> > it

> > > is concluded to be an infectious disease by everyone.

> > >

> > > The residual sx that occur in apparantly a minority of cases

(eg

> > > seizure, etc in neurosyphilis) are attributed by some to

damage,

> > but

> > > it sounds like there is not definitive evidence.

> > >

> > > > I wonder what drug they use to treat syphylis? Have they

tried

> > it

> > > on

> > > > us.

> > >

> > > Almost exclusively benzylpenicillin, ie penicillin G.

[Guest guest]

Six million units ain't a big deal my friend is currently on 10

million units being infused every 4 hours. Also if in hospital they

would infuse 20 million units a day for pelvic infections, brain

infections take the high end stuff.

> > > > To whom ever might be interested second and third stage

> syphilis

> > > cannot be

> > > > cured. Like the Bb spirochete it goes into cell wall

deficient

> > > stages, invades

> > > > the tissues deeply, red cells and white cells, CNS. No

Doctor

> > with

> > > any

> > > > knowledge will claim to cure syphilis beyond the first

stage,

> > Put

> > > it into remission in

> > > > the second stage, yes, very possible, but cure cannot be

> > > guaranteed. Prof.

> > > > Carol

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > In a message dated 8/7/05 9:26:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > > > usenethod@y... writes:

> > > > I have been thinking a lot about syphilis, and how similar

it

> is

> > > to

> > > > > Lyme.

> > > >

> > > > I " love " syphilis!

> > > >

> > > > > I don't think doctors question Syphilis, so why do they

> > > > > question Lyme.

> > > >

> > > > In fact there is NO pathogensis for chronic syphilis and

just

> > like

> > > > lyme they cant seem to find enough of the bacteria to

explain

> > > > anything. Apparantly chronic syphilis has NEVER been studied

> > with

> > > the

> > > > electron microscope. It is accepted universally mainly

because

> > it

> > > is

> > > > treatable... after a brief treatment it apparantly fails to

> > > progress

> > > > (always?) and usually symptoms resolve. At least according

to

> > what

> > > > they tell ya. But it used to be very very abundant and now

it

> is

> > > very

> > > > rare so the lit seems to be correct. THis response to abx is

> why

> > > it

> > > > is concluded to be an infectious disease by everyone.

> > > >

> > > > The residual sx that occur in apparantly a minority of cases

> (eg

> > > > seizure, etc in neurosyphilis) are attributed by some to

> damage,

> > > but

> > > > it sounds like there is not definitive evidence.

> > > >

> > > > > I wonder what drug they use to treat syphylis? Have they

> tried

> > > it

> > > > on

> > > > > us.

> > > >

> > > > Almost exclusively benzylpenicillin, ie penicillin G.

[Guest guest]

Exactly, Tony. You and I are in agreement here, in case you hadn't

noticed. I posted these to point out that your fear about

underaggressive treatment in syphilis appears to be well founded.

> > > > > To whom ever might be interested second and third stage

> > syphilis

> > > > cannot be

> > > > > cured. Like the Bb spirochete it goes into cell wall

> deficient

> > > > stages, invades

> > > > > the tissues deeply, red cells and white cells, CNS. No

> Doctor

> > > with

> > > > any

> > > > > knowledge will claim to cure syphilis beyond the first

> stage,

> > > Put

> > > > it into remission in

> > > > > the second stage, yes, very possible, but cure cannot be

> > > > guaranteed. Prof.

> > > > > Carol

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > In a message dated 8/7/05 9:26:07 PM Eastern Daylight

Time,

> > > > > usenethod@y... writes:

> > > > > I have been thinking a lot about syphilis, and how similar

> it

> > is

> > > > to

> > > > > > Lyme.

> > > > >

> > > > > I " love " syphilis!

> > > > >

> > > > > > I don't think doctors question Syphilis, so why do they

> > > > > > question Lyme.

> > > > >

> > > > > In fact there is NO pathogensis for chronic syphilis and

> just

> > > like

> > > > > lyme they cant seem to find enough of the bacteria to

> explain

> > > > > anything. Apparantly chronic syphilis has NEVER been

studied

> > > with

> > > > the

> > > > > electron microscope. It is accepted universally mainly

> because

> > > it

> > > > is

> > > > > treatable... after a brief treatment it apparantly fails

to

> > > > progress

> > > > > (always?) and usually symptoms resolve. At least according

> to

> > > what

> > > > > they tell ya. But it used to be very very abundant and now

> it

> > is

> > > > very

> > > > > rare so the lit seems to be correct. THis response to abx

is

> > why

> > > > it

> > > > > is concluded to be an infectious disease by everyone.

> > > > >

> > > > > The residual sx that occur in apparantly a minority of

cases

> > (eg

> > > > > seizure, etc in neurosyphilis) are attributed by some to

> > damage,

> > > > but

> > > > > it sounds like there is not definitive evidence.

> > > > >

> > > > > > I wonder what drug they use to treat syphylis? Have they

> > tried

> > > > it

> > > > > on

> > > > > > us.

> > > > >

> > > > > Almost exclusively benzylpenicillin, ie penicillin G.

[Guest guest]

I gathered that your coming around to- 'tony deep thought processes

out a loud'.Again as long as you can keep the bacterial numbers

going down you have to keep attempting therapies.

The only problem is that many therapies don't achieve this so it's

one to watch out for.

> > > > > > To whom ever might be interested second and third stage

> > > syphilis

> > > > > cannot be

> > > > > > cured. Like the Bb spirochete it goes into cell wall

> > deficient

> > > > > stages, invades

> > > > > > the tissues deeply, red cells and white cells, CNS. No

> > Doctor

> > > > with

> > > > > any

> > > > > > knowledge will claim to cure syphilis beyond the first

> > stage,

> > > > Put

> > > > > it into remission in

> > > > > > the second stage, yes, very possible, but cure cannot be

> > > > > guaranteed. Prof.

> > > > > > Carol

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In a message dated 8/7/05 9:26:07 PM Eastern Daylight

> Time,

> > > > > > usenethod@y... writes:

> > > > > > I have been thinking a lot about syphilis, and how

similar

> > it

> > > is

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > Lyme.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I " love " syphilis!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > I don't think doctors question Syphilis, so why do

they

> > > > > > > question Lyme.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In fact there is NO pathogensis for chronic syphilis and

> > just

> > > > like

> > > > > > lyme they cant seem to find enough of the bacteria to

> > explain

> > > > > > anything. Apparantly chronic syphilis has NEVER been

> studied

> > > > with

> > > > > the

> > > > > > electron microscope. It is accepted universally mainly

> > because

> > > > it

> > > > > is

> > > > > > treatable... after a brief treatment it apparantly fails

> to

> > > > > progress

> > > > > > (always?) and usually symptoms resolve. At least

according

> > to

> > > > what

> > > > > > they tell ya. But it used to be very very abundant and

now

> > it

> > > is

> > > > > very

> > > > > > rare so the lit seems to be correct. THis response to

abx

> is

> > > why

> > > > > it

> > > > > > is concluded to be an infectious disease by everyone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The residual sx that occur in apparantly a minority of

> cases

> > > (eg

> > > > > > seizure, etc in neurosyphilis) are attributed by some to

> > > damage,

> > > > > but

> > > > > > it sounds like there is not definitive evidence.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > I wonder what drug they use to treat syphylis? Have

they

> > > tried

> > > > > it

> > > > > > on

> > > > > > > us.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Almost exclusively benzylpenicillin, ie penicillin G.