Re: vitamin D, antimicrobial peptides, CWD, and psuedomonas

[Guest guest]

I'm troubled by this vit D thing- my cousin with MS has been

supplementing his D like crazy for many years and there's no

remarkable anti infective properties that can be observed.

> > For those interested in the Vitamin D receptor and its

> relationship

> > to 1,25-D, here is another article;

> >

> > FASEB J. 2005 Jul;19(9):1067-77.

> >

> > Human cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide (CAMP) gene is a direct

> > target of the vitamin D receptor and is strongly up-regulated in

> > myeloid cells by 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3.

> >

> > Gombart AF, Borregaard N, Koeffler HP.

> >

> > Department of Medicine, Division of Hematology/Oncology, Cedars-

> Sinai

> > Medical Center, Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA, Los

> Angeles,

> > California 90048, USA. gombarta@c...

> >

> > The innate immune system of mammals provides a rapid response to

> > repel assaults from numerous infectious agents including

bacteria,

> > viruses, fungi, and parasites. A major component of this system

is

> a

> > diverse combination of cationic antimicrobial peptides that

> include

> > the alpha- and beta-defensins and cathelicidins. In this study,

we

> > show that 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 and three of its analogs

> induced

> > expression of the human cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide

(CAMP)

> > gene. This induction was observed in acute myeloid leukemia

(AML),

> > immortalized keratinocyte, and colon cancer cell lines, as well

as

> > normal human bone marrow (BM) -derived macrophages and fresh BM

> cells

> > from two normal individuals and one AML patient. The induction

> > occurred via a consensus vitamin D response element (VDRE) in

the

> > CAMP promoter that was bound by the vitamin D receptor (VDR).

> > Induction of CAMP in murine cells was not observed and

expression

> of

> > CAMP mRNA in murine VDR-deficient bone marrow was similar to

wild-

> > type levels. Comparison of mammalian genomes revealed

evolutionary

> > conservation of the VDRE in a short interspersed nuclear element

> or

> > SINE in the CAMP promoter of primates that was absent in the

> mouse,

> > rat, and canine genomes. Our findings reveal a novel activity of

> 1,25-

> > dihydroxyvitamin D3 and the VDR in regulation of primate innate

> > immunity.

> >

> > PMID: 15985530 [PubMed - in process]

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

This study was done in vitro on cell lines vastly different from the

ones which would be relevant for us who have Th1 diseases. I think

that the conditions they were studying have their own unique types of

dysregulation.

The biggest problem with experiments done in vitro is that you don't

have the benefit of the other chemicals which in their natural

habitat would interact with those specific pieces being studied.

Whether these cells and/or the CAMP gene would respond the same way

in a live animal would be hard to say. The concentrations,

proportions and fluctuations in the whole chain reaction change in

response to the many variables which come into play in the live

organism. In other words these chemicals inside the body are

constantly shifting and adjusting adaptively to the animal's

environment.

Bacteria adapt to us in numerous ways, so it is possible that in the

Th1 diseases they circumvent or secret proteins which paralyze or

inactivate this process, or even cause the inverse response to the

introduction of 1,25-D. That would be one possible explanation for

why supplementing Vitamin D for us might not help (and may even hurt).

Tony's report about his cousin with MS seems to fit the Th1 model

more than it fits the one being proposed in this paper. I think such

cases should be studied closely, as they might give scientists

further information about how the immune system works, and about how

bacteria operate inside the host.

Scientists need to find out exactly why Vitamin D fails to curtail

disease progression or has a detrimental effect in a number of

patients, and then compare with those in which it seems to have the

opposite effect.

By studying the differences in biochemistry between different

populations they will begin to be able to answer this question.

The paper tells us a little about the Vitamin D receptor (which may

be flawed in at least some patients with Th1 diseases), but doesn't

show upregulation of the CAMP gene in any conditions other than in

the following;

* acute myeloid leukemia (AML),

* immortalized keratinocyte,

* colon cancer cell lines,

* normal human bone marrow (BM) -derived macrophages

* fresh BM cells from two normal individuals and one AML patient.

I do think that the articles you were talking about that you and

found combining peptides and antibiotics may be onto something that

may have relevence for us.

I'm waiting to hear back from one researcher who has published

several recent papers on another piece of this biochemistry.

Your memory (and other skills) might be improving because your

continuing to read and discuss with others is building new neuronal

pathways in the brain.

There has been some research on Stroke and in Alzheimers which

supports the hypothesis that it is possible to re-learn or transfer

skills and other brain functions that resided in damaged areas to

parts of the brain not normally used for those purposes.

I believe that I have probably done (and am doing) that, as I have

some neuro symptoms that were believed intractible that are now

resolving.

I also believe that treatment can help facilitate the process of re-

building these pathways.

It's probably very healthy for us to challenge ourselves

intellectually as much as possible.

Pippit

> > For those interested in the Vitamin D receptor and its

> relationship

> > to 1,25-D, here is another article;

> >

> > FASEB J. 2005 Jul;19(9):1067-77.

> >

> > Human cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide (CAMP) gene is a direct

> > target of the vitamin D receptor and is strongly up-regulated in

> > myeloid cells by 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3.

> >

> > Gombart AF, Borregaard N, Koeffler HP.

> >

> > Department of Medicine, Division of Hematology/Oncology, Cedars-

> Sinai

> > Medical Center, Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA, Los

> Angeles,

> > California 90048, USA. gombarta@c...

> >

> > The innate immune system of mammals provides a rapid response to

> > repel assaults from numerous infectious agents including

bacteria,

> > viruses, fungi, and parasites. A major component of this system

is

> a

> > diverse combination of cationic antimicrobial peptides that

> include

> > the alpha- and beta-defensins and cathelicidins. In this study,

we

> > show that 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 and three of its analogs

> induced

> > expression of the human cathelicidin antimicrobial peptide (CAMP)

> > gene. This induction was observed in acute myeloid leukemia

(AML),

> > immortalized keratinocyte, and colon cancer cell lines, as well

as

> > normal human bone marrow (BM) -derived macrophages and fresh BM

> cells

> > from two normal individuals and one AML patient. The induction

> > occurred via a consensus vitamin D response element (VDRE) in the

> > CAMP promoter that was bound by the vitamin D receptor (VDR).

> > Induction of CAMP in murine cells was not observed and expression

> of

> > CAMP mRNA in murine VDR-deficient bone marrow was similar to wild-

> > type levels. Comparison of mammalian genomes revealed

evolutionary

> > conservation of the VDRE in a short interspersed nuclear element

> or

> > SINE in the CAMP promoter of primates that was absent in the

> mouse,

> > rat, and canine genomes. Our findings reveal a novel activity of

> 1,25-

> > dihydroxyvitamin D3 and the VDR in regulation of primate innate

> > immunity.

> >

> > PMID: 15985530 [PubMed - in process]

[Guest guest]

The problem is that a single individual is not predictive. If you took

a group of 20 people with and another without supplementation --- those

with it will likely progess with MS a lot slower.

It is NOT a cures, it is a contributing factor.

>

> I'm troubled by this vit D thing- my cousin with MS has been

> supplementing his D like crazy for many years and there's no

> remarkable anti infective properties that can be observed.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Since when is this list restricted to those with TH1 illnesses?

> This study was done in vitro on cell lines vastly different from the

> ones which would be relevant for us who have Th1 diseases.

[Guest guest]

Ken

I've only seen people go crazy on giving themselves supplements, I

never see people (as often) go hard on the antibiotics. My problem

when facing an infection is which deficiency did it cause and which

supplement is going to make it stronger. I don't know how blessed

you are with your ilness, but the sugar levels in cranberry juice or

coca cola where enough to make me violently ill for a month.I know

your big on peer reviewed studies but they don't get anyone well on

the internet anywhere I have observed.

My other problem was it was clear cut to me something in hot

climates (many times visitor to hawaii) would absolutely flare me up-

when I wasn't ill!-Unbearable lower back/excruciating dental pain

until I returned home and got out of the sun. I also feel you pay

for being exposed to long cycles of pain, what that is is obviously

to do with pain and inflammation and your blood fills with by-

products that need clearing- GET THE DIALYSIS if it's the best and

cut the supplementing crap.I'm so troubled with people not studying

themselves clearly enough and understanding why there so different

to the next bloke. Imagine doing 1 doxy a day and you discover

there's a huge crack six inches long seeping spinal fluid thru your

sinuses. You obviously need to understanding how appropriate or

inappropriate your therapy is- to me it's all individual, once you

get the right antimicrobials getting you feeling better there's a

chance to provide the supplements to get the building blocks in

place to get you there faster if it's possable.

But it may be the dialysis that enables the crap to leave the

bloodstream?

tony

> >

> > I'm troubled by this vit D thing- my cousin with MS has been

> > supplementing his D like crazy for many years and there's no

> > remarkable anti infective properties that can be observed.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

No issues from me --- two items that your post raises:

1) Being at altitude for 2+ hrs ( flight to Hawaii) will trigger

coagulation, similarly

2) Temperature will trigger coagulation

See the list of other known triggers at:

http://lassesen.com/cfids/coagulation_triggers.htm

That may be a factor for you. If you look at the FWIW (note the

honesty --- " For What It's Worth "

http://lassesen.com/cfids/ZeroBasedProtocol.htm ) you will see that I

advocate three things: supplements, anticoagulants, anti-infections.

Some need just one (could be any one), others need all three.

" people go crazy on giving themselves supplements " is very correct ---

unfortunately, most appear to do a random collection of supplements

without specific goals (grabbing at straws). Correcting established

mineral and vitamin deficiencies by getting up to the median -- IMHO

has not been tried in the literature (or with individuals). Most MD's

only are concern if someone is at the 2%ile or worst.

So the question is: is it dialysis that is needed, or heparin, for

you?

> Ken

> I've only seen people go crazy on giving themselves supplements, I

> never see people (as often) go hard on the antibiotics. My problem

> when facing an infection is which deficiency did it cause and which

> supplement is going to make it stronger. I don't know how blessed

> you are with your ilness, but the sugar levels in cranberry juice

or

> coca cola where enough to make me violently ill for a month.I know

> your big on peer reviewed studies but they don't get anyone well on

> the internet anywhere I have observed.

> My other problem was it was clear cut to me something in hot

> climates (many times visitor to hawaii) would absolutely flare me

up-

> when I wasn't ill!-Unbearable lower back/excruciating dental pain

> until I returned home and got out of the sun. I also feel you pay

> for being exposed to long cycles of pain, what that is is obviously

> to do with pain and inflammation and your blood fills with by-

> products that need clearing- GET THE DIALYSIS if it's the best and

> cut the supplementing crap.I'm so troubled with people not studying

> themselves clearly enough and understanding why there so different

> to the next bloke. Imagine doing 1 doxy a day and you discover

> there's a huge crack six inches long seeping spinal fluid thru your

> sinuses. You obviously need to understanding how appropriate or

> inappropriate your therapy is- to me it's all individual, once you

> get the right antimicrobials getting you feeling better there's a

> chance to provide the supplements to get the building blocks in

> place to get you there faster if it's possable.

> But it may be the dialysis that enables the crap to leave the

> bloodstream?

> tony

[Guest guest]

Ken

I don't need a thing. I am completely in control of my disease I

have no known symptoms and think I'll pass the fibromyalgia urine

test at newcastle university. I just attack my head rot (really

rotten sinuses). You guys are asleep with the big picture of this

disease,with it's accelerated ageing,and major skeletal rot that no-

one has picked up on. You actually may ask around and see how many

have unbtreated endometreosis that makes the infections harder to

eradicate. So yeah it's coagulation,and we don't absorb very well,

but the infection and rot that your missing is the BIG PICTURE.

Remember most have ME=a tender head-infection in the meninges-sinus

rot-seeping csf fluid,when people bother to do the hard yards of

discovery.

My plane trips weren't a problem but the heat or sunshine and d

REALLY MESSED with me, I actually fell ill while our city

experienced it's hottest week of the century 5 consecutive days over

100 degree's.... that was it.....I had just finished my project

car,which didn't help as it was a convertable.

So you got most of this but your missing the picture of how rotten

things are and how important this is to fix correctly.This calibre

of ill health doesn't hide it can now be scanned?

tony

> > Ken

> > I've only seen people go crazy on giving themselves supplements,

I

> > never see people (as often) go hard on the antibiotics. My

problem

> > when facing an infection is which deficiency did it cause and

which

> > supplement is going to make it stronger. I don't know how

blessed

> > you are with your ilness, but the sugar levels in cranberry

juice

> or

> > coca cola where enough to make me violently ill for a month.I

know

> > your big on peer reviewed studies but they don't get anyone well

on

> > the internet anywhere I have observed.

> > My other problem was it was clear cut to me something in hot

> > climates (many times visitor to hawaii) would absolutely flare

me

> up-

> > when I wasn't ill!-Unbearable lower back/excruciating dental

pain

> > until I returned home and got out of the sun. I also feel you

pay

> > for being exposed to long cycles of pain, what that is is

obviously

> > to do with pain and inflammation and your blood fills with by-

> > products that need clearing- GET THE DIALYSIS if it's the best

and

> > cut the supplementing crap.I'm so troubled with people not

studying

> > themselves clearly enough and understanding why there so

different

> > to the next bloke. Imagine doing 1 doxy a day and you discover

> > there's a huge crack six inches long seeping spinal fluid thru

your

> > sinuses. You obviously need to understanding how appropriate or

> > inappropriate your therapy is- to me it's all individual, once

you

> > get the right antimicrobials getting you feeling better there's

a

> > chance to provide the supplements to get the building blocks in

> > place to get you there faster if it's possable.

> > But it may be the dialysis that enables the crap to leave the

> > bloodstream?

> > tony